[spalit]

This is probably a stupid question, but I was just wondering why you don't see/hear of people using bolt-action rifles for highpower and cmp style matches. I would have thought that bolt-actions, with their inherent accuracy advantage over semi-autos would be more prevalent. So what an I missing.? Timed-fire disadvantage?

The other reason I ask is I'm eyeing a CZ 550 as a next purchase, and was wondering if it would be a bad choice for casual competition, considering that this rifle would do double-duty as a hunting rifle.?

[TexasRifleman]

The object is to compete with military style equipment, so you see a lot of ARs, M1 Garands, even a semi auto BAR is approved.

Don't know about the highpower matches, but CMP is civilian marksmanship with a military application. That whole "militia" thing :)

[spalit]

So an Enfield .303 would be allowed in CMP matches?

[George S.]

Always thought the CMP John C. Garand matches were for ... Garands. :D My local range has matches for both pre-WWII bolt action and WWII-era bolt action military rifles.

The Lee Enfield rifles are bolt action, so if bolt rifles are not allowed in CMP matches, then the Enfields cannot compete.

[Grump]

CMP dis-approved the US-issue bolt guns before they went private. The intent of the Civilian MARKSMANSHIP Program is development of civilians skilled in the generally current-issue military firearms, for purposes of enhancing national defense. Because of the sustained-fire exercises at 200 and 300, the bolt guns don't build all of the skills desired. AFIK, we keep the M1 out of tradition and mercy for the budget-strapped who are just getting into the game.

[Edit]
As far as NRA Highpower, there is always the "Match Rifle" category for those who have tired of the "Service Rifle" class. Look at the Tubb 2000 boltgun for the state of the art on that. If you want calibers other than 5.56mm, 7.62x51, or .30-06, Match Rifle is the only game in town. I've been reading up on the 6mm XC cartridge, and it gives you the performance of .300 Magnums shooting 200+ grain boattails, with recoil maybe a bit lighter than a .243. If you don't want to wait for a gas action to cycle your bolt for you, then a non-military caliber becomes an option for Match Rifle events. I'd like to try a long-loaded 6.5 Grendel in a bolt gun with a mag well deeper than the M16....

[mustanger98]

My local gun club, when service rifle matches are held, allows everything to be shot so long as it's "as issued". This means AR-15/M-16, M-14, M1 Garand, and any and all bolt guns of allied and axis militaries. Other clubs do this. But, those are not CMP sanctioned matches.

I remember reading what Elmer Keith told ("Hell, I Was There") about his shooting in the National Matches at Camp Perry with the Montana and Idaho National Guard units he was in. Back then, they used the '03 Springfield, but that was pre-Garand. But the way he told it, they had "service rifle" and "match rifle" separate even back then.

[Jim Watson]

A friend took me to a highpower match with an "F-class" event.
Slowfire prone at 600 and 1000 yards, artificial support allowed. Two divisions, Tactical must be in a military calibre and use only a bipod or simple sandbag, Open is essentially a benchrest rifle and rests on the ground.
No heavy coat or contorting into a sling, not stuff I want to learn at my age. I had a lot of fun with my 1942 Winchester M70 Target on a bipod.
Of course the serious highpower Long Range shooters, both service rifle and match rifle were all wrapped up in the best conventional style alongside us bipod shooters.

Plenty of bolt actions there. But no hunting rifles like the CZ550.

There is a CMP Rimfire Sporter competition, a Springfield Rifle Match, and a Vintage Military Rifle match, but I don't see anything for centerfire sporting rifles. I think Metallic Silhouette has put in a stock class because their match rifles were getting so fancy.

[Matt-man]

There are a lot of bolt guns at the high-power matches I attend - Winchesters, Remingtons, and Savages. Keep in mind that unless you are shooting F-class with a scope, you are restricted to iron sights. There aren't many hunting-style rifles out there whose sights are up to the challenge of highpower.

[twoblink]

A guy I spoke to in Vegas before, he said that at his range, they have friendly "2 guns" competitions. All guns allowed as long as they are all stock, no modifications, and to win, you have to get the better score, but your score is a combination of you shooting your gun and THEIR gun and of course, visa versa. That way, it levels the field a little bit, who's the better shooter, not who has the better gun.

I didn't particularly find it fair, as most of us are more familiar with our own guns..

my understand has always been, CMP is for civi's pretending to be mili's..

[Duke of Lawnchair]

my understand has always been, CMP is for civi's pretending to be mili's..


Wow.

[Steve Smith]

That's pretty sad, Twoblink.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Wow. that was out of line, twoblink.

[Powderman]

my understand has always been, CMP is for civi's pretending to be mili's..

The Civilian Marksmanship Program started out as the Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship, which was run by the US Army. The purpose of the program was (and still is) to build a solid foundation in the civilian shooter, so that they are at least familiar with basic rifle marksmanship.

By the way, a HUGE percentage of rifle and pistol competitors are prior service. And, just to inform you, the Conventional Pistol match has been won for the last five years by a Marine.

[swingset]

my understand has always been, CMP is for civi's pretending to be mili's..

your understand is wrong.

[cracked butt]

Where I shoot, they allow you to use any US military rifles for CMP matches (I don't think they are official CMP matches as the club still calls them DCM matches)- some guys have actually used Krags. There probably isn't good reason to, even using a 1903 or 03A3 is going to really handicap you in the rapid fire portions of the match, still some people still use them, I've shot a few matches with an 03A3, but people usually end up at the very low end of the scoring spectrum using the bolt guns.

[30Cal]

:banghead:

Most highpower rifle matches are shot under the NRA Highpower Rifle rules. Under these rules, there are two rifles--Service Rifle (AR, M1, and M14) and Match Rifle (any rifle with iron sights that can be reloaded with 5 round magazines or clips). I'd say at least 1/3 of the shooters at a typical highpower match are shooting bolt action rifles.

F-class rules allow any rifle, any sight, sandbags, bipods or whatever else you might elect to stick on. Most local matches will allow you to shoot an F-class rifle, but your score doesn't count.

EIC matches and certain matches in Camp Perry are Service Rifle only.

[WhiteKnight]

your understand is wrong.

:D

You guys are quick!

[Gewehr98]

Even the John C. Garand matches allowed M1 Carbines, Krags, 1903 Springfields, and U.S. 1917 Enfields to compete with the M1 Garands. I won several John C. Garand matches with a 1903A1 Springfield, but as time progressed, it was it was obvious folks like me were stealing thunder from the M1 Garand and the reason for the John C. Garand matches.

Now, they have a Springfield/Vintage Military Rifle match, purposely set up so folks can shoot their Krags, 1903 Springfields, and U.S. 1917 Enfields, at a pace that allows bolt manipulation and Krag-style reloads.

The latter part of the Springfield/Vintage Military Rifle match allows foreign military service rifles to compete, as long as they are in "as issued" configuration. So the folks with Lee-Enfields, Schmidt-Rubins, Mausers, Nagants, Arisakas, Ross, and Mannlichers aren't left out in the cold. :D

BTW, Twoblink, I can't believe you said that. :(

[wanderinwalker]

I won't get into twoblink's remark, already been done.

As far as bolt-actions in NRA Highpower matches, there are plenty used. You have to understand though, that a dedicated match rifle is NOT a box-stock item (unless one calls the Tubb 2k a "box-stock" rifle). My understanding is that a bolt-rifle goes to your gunsmith with the instructions, "I need an over-the-course match rifle" and it comes back as you need it setup.

FWIW, I have NEVER seen a stock sporter rifle on the line at a Highpower event. And I HAVE used a 1903A3 in a J.C. Garand match, which was fun, but after a summer of practicing on the mouse gun and having the rifle reload itself, I didn't get all of my rapid-fire rounds downrange.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Clubs can be a cmp approved club and conduct matches which can be pretty much as you want to run them.
You can and I see
Garand matches
bolt rifle matches
old military rifle matches
and many other names
The ideal is to get more folks involved in the sport and I see a pretty good turn out at those and it lets alot of folks shoot without trying to compete with the more serious shooters that are adicted to highpower. (me).

Now as far as the cmp rule book for matches you have the trophy matches at camp perry that include:
Presidents 100
EIC (leg match)
6 man team
NTIT (rattle battle)
Garand
Springfield
Then you have EIC (leg) matches and they go by the rules in the book.
In most leg matches other than camp perry and mybe even at the leg in perry would have to check on that they also run what they call a mids match which is a bolt match that runs along with the service rifle gas guns.
They are not eligible for points or awards in the match toward your EIC unless they set up a awards program for itfor that match itself.

In Co there are lots of cmp matches run every month but only two EIC matches sanctioned by the CMP. You are allowed to only shoot 3 EIC matches a year with the one at the nationals being a 4th if you go and shoot it. The match follows the NRA highpower book pretty close with really the only main difference being how the match is run. 50 shots and no sighters
It can be only at a range of at least 500 yards and run like this.
10 shots off hand 200 yards
10 shots rapid sitting 200 yards
10 shots rapid prone 300 yards
20 shots slow prone 500 yards or 600 yards depending on what your range has.
ALSO NO SIGHTERS ALLOWED

We welcome anybody to come and shoot those matches here and if we know ahead of time we would be more than happy to loan you equipment for the match.

What I see is a break down of certain matches and I do see a few bolt guns at every match, We have matches that follow the exact rules of the game and others that are a lot more relaxing, Kinda like you can chose how serious you want to shoot.
As long as the rifle meets the rules in the nra book you can enter the nra matches that are either approved or registered as in state or regional championships.

Jon

[Quintin Likely]

At the club I shoot at, you're likely to see several different types of match and service rifles. Tuned Winchester 70s and Remington 700s, Tubb T2Ks, AR based space guns, M1s, M1As, ARs from all different corners.

I think a lot of the bolt gun's thunder was stolen when people started building AR based match rifles; with the right bullet, they'll do just fine across the course, with a lot less recoil than a .30 caliber Remchester match rifle without having to work the bolt in the rapids. And an AR space gun is (typically) cheaper to build than a bolt gun.

Edited to add: Typically, in high power competition, you won't see many dual purpose rifles. Heavy barrels, stiff stocks made of laminated wood or fiberglass with adjustible cheek pieces and buttstocks, rails cut in the forearm for a handstop, use of a sling to steady your aim during the sitting and prone strings, and precise, front and rear aperture style sights are pretty much status quo for the match rifle crowd. That's not to say that you couldn't take your CZ550 out and shoot F-class and have a good time, just that most highpower rifles are purpose built for competition. As time and money allows, I'm gonna try doing most of the aforementioned to my Savage 10FP. I think generally speaking, the most important thing is to get out there and have fun. Everything else will come with time and experience.