[Kaylee]

As I was looking at my .30-06 the other day, I couldn't help but notice how little of the rifle's length was actually usable barrel. I mean, the base of the cartridge is already way out near my support hand, and well.. even with a 22" barrel, that's not a lot of usable length, given the total length of the rifle it seems to me.

So here's the question.. someone once described a rotary-bolt setup to me once... I think with something called "trounds" in a handgun? regardless.. the idea seemed to be --

1. bottom of bolt (like an open-edged revolver) scoops up top round in the magazine.

2. bolt rotates a few degrees, and seals up with the top of the receiver to form a chamber

3. round fired, bolt rotates a tad more to dump the brass out the side

4. repeat as above.

I was wondering if this idea was ever -- or *could* ever be developed further? It seems like losing the several inches of travel space for a reciprocating bolt would make all these fancy "cqb" kinda things easier to make spec and still have sufficient barrel length to do a good job.

Is that possible, or is it just clogging up the plumbing too much? Why didn't it ever get developed further?

-K

[cheygriz]

IIRC, the tround was one of those answers to a question that hadn't been asked.

The answers to more useable barrel length so far, have been either a bullpup configuration for military, or a single shot falling block for hunting.

EX. A Ruger No.1 or Browning SS with a 26 inch barrel is the same overall length as an average bolt gun with a 22 inch barrel.

[Badger Arms]

There are several ways to shorten a rifle. The Remington 788 did so by having the ejection port roughly flush with the rear of the barrel. On guns with mauser lugs, you cannot do this. This gives you an inch. Another way is to push it in from behind by shortening the rear bridge and pushing the trigger closer to the magazine. You see this on the Remington 600/660 series. You can also use an unconventional action like the Blaser rifle. The worst way is the bullpup where you put the trigger in front of the magazine.

What do you need a shorter rifle for anyhow? Just by one of them new Remington 673 in 300 Remington Short Magnums!!! BOOM.

[Art Eatman]

Uh, cheygriz, the first bullpup I ever saw was a .220 Swift on a Model 70. Around 1950. The idea was for a handy varmint-gun when shooting from a vehicle. The obvious problem is having a system which allows a precision trigger. I'm too lazy to see if Phil Sharpe refers to bullpups in the pre-WW II era. :)

I dunno if any serious military bullpups preceded the Steyr Aug of, what, the 1970s?

Art

[Sir Galahad]

The problem with this is that no matter how tight you can spec the tolerances for the cylinder, there will still be a gap. Gas will escape from the gap as on a revolver. This could lead to fouling issues internally. Further, that gas escaping will be on an action right up near the shooter's face; the seal on the action would have to be impeccable and, so, the fouling would also stay encased in the action. Also, with the chamber pressures of some rounds, the action and cylinder would have to be pretty heavy. On a similar note, Colt tried some revolving rifles back in the 1860s and no one really liked them. The latest thing in revolving cylinder firearms is the Mateba "semi-auto" revolver. So far, not many folks are too interested in it and the mechanism is overly complicated for a revolver (read: more apt to break a part you can't find in Winslow, Arizona and has to be special ordered.)

[Badger Arms]

The british had numerous bullpup prototypes and even a few production models that were never produced because of politics. There was a 'bullpup' of sorts that was produced in substantial numbers. That was the German FG42. Not a true bullpup, but the trigger was below the magazine (located on the side of the rifle). The US had a few prototypes to replace the Garand but none were as successfull as the future FAL and M14 prototypes.

[cheygriz]

Badger,

I've handled and fired several AUGs over the years. I just wish that I had purchased one when they cost less per ounce than pure gold.

I'm curious why you would say that the bullpup is a poor design? Obviously, it must be properly executed, but the AUG is one of the handiest military rifles that I've ever fired. I wouldn't want one for a hunting rifle, but for what it was designed for, it seems to be excellent.

[Deadman]

' the AUG is one of the handiest military rifles that I've ever fired '


I'll agree. I've criticized the Aug for numerous technical reasons in the past, but I'll never criticize the Aug for its compact size and ease of handling.

And the way in which the Australian Army teaches fire and movement drills, using a heavier, longer .30 cal rifle would be much more difficult.

[Kaylee]

Badger -- it's not that I want a shorter rifle -- it's that I'd like the already existing length of the rifle to be used more efficienctly. I don't mind a rifle longer than my own arm... it just seems kinda a waste for so little of that length to be usable barrel, ya know?


Galahad -- good points!

Hrmm..... didn't that funky caseless HK rifle have also have a rotating bolt, albeit along the "yaw" axis of the weapon? Could something like that work without the gas leakage issue?

-K

[Badger Arms]

cheygriz:

I'll defend my position a bit. Bullpups are great individual rifles for reasons of compactness and portability. They are marinal for ergonomics. Magazine changes are about half as fast as the AR-15 for instance. Also, you cannot switch shoulders or pick up a rifle that's configured for lefty's and fire it. In the heat of battle, I don't want a 45mm long case flying through my cheek and/or jamming up the rifle. The AUG is a great weapon with a few exceptions. Trigger pull is mushy and inprecise.

For a sporting rifle, it's mainly trigger pull that's the issue. From a combat point of view, you don't want to be traipsing around an urban environment only able to shoot from the right shoulder.

[cheygriz]

Badger,

Fair enough. Although I much prefer the M-16, I wouldn't feel the least bit put upon if I had to carry an AUG into battle. But that's just my preference.