Kel Tec P32 or P380?


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Min
December 22, 2004, 09:13 PM
Which should I get for deep concealed carry/back up?

The P32 has slide lock back on empty, and I heard they were a bit more reliable than the P380. Any more info on this?

At close quarters last ditch defense gun, it won't make much difference if the round is a .32ACP or .380ACP. I'd be aiming for the face anyway.

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bubbygator
December 22, 2004, 09:28 PM
The newest KelTec P3AT's are now reliable without the "fluff & buff". Buy serial # HAAxx or higher. I got HAQxx & fired 5 different defense ammos from 3 mags, straight out of the box, & had zero failures & good accuracy.

wdlsguy
December 22, 2004, 09:40 PM
The P3AT is slightly bigger, holds one less round and kicks a bit harder. I own one of each and carry one or the other regularly.

Preacherman
December 22, 2004, 10:05 PM
Just be sure to test the weapon and make sure it's 100% reliable for defensive use. I've owned 3 P-32's and 2 P3-AT's, and I couldn't get any one of them to be acceptably reliable. To me, the old test of "defensive reliability" is paramount: your carry gun must be able to shoot 200 rounds of your carry ammo without a single malfunction of any sort. I couldn't get any of my Kel-Tec's to shoot even 100 rounds without a malfunction.

I know there are reliable KT's out there: their owners have posted about them here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, my experience has been the opposite to theirs... which is why I no longer own any KT pistols.

bigmike45
December 22, 2004, 10:17 PM
Of course there is the slightly larger Kel-Tec P11 in the more powerful 9mm and 10+1 capacity. I have one and it resides in any front pant pocket I am currently wearing. I have worn it in an ankle holster very comfortablly and even in a small of the back rig just next to my primary CCW. Again the little extra punch offered by the 9mm is just so much more comforting to me, not to speak of the added magazine capacity. If you have not looked at one, dont shortchange yourself by passing it by.

Onmilo
December 23, 2004, 10:29 AM
I own a P32 and wouldn't feel helpless with a P3AT.
Choose the one for which the local dealers always have spare magazines in stock along with less expensive ammunition.
Either gun will serve well.

BLiTzNicK
December 23, 2004, 11:12 AM
I've owned both, and currently only have the P32 that my wife bought me a few Christmas' ago. The P3AT had a bit too much bite for me, so I sold it to a fellow HighRoader. My P32 don't jam, and neither did the P3AT.

WhoKnowsWho
December 23, 2004, 11:18 AM
I've never had a problem with my P32, and saw a short string from the P3AT, and it didn't have a problem either. I don't think you can go wrong with either one, but since you have neither, I would go for the .380 caliber first to see how you can handle it. If it is too much, you could probably easily trade it for the .32 version.

Steelharp
December 23, 2004, 01:18 PM
Ok, so my P3AT is # H4750... where does that fall in a 3 letter, 2 number configuration?

I'm so confused... :confused:

Bob79
December 23, 2004, 02:11 PM
I had the P-3AT, and it tended to jam too much for me to be comfortable with it, so I sold it. Mine and from what I understand, almost all the 380's create what many call a "smiley". It happens when the Feed Ramp bangs against the next bullet in the mag moves up, and leaves a mark on the bullet. It deforms the bullet, and people have reported light marks, and others very deep marks.

The P-32 has been around a lot longer, and seems to be more reliable, and theres not much difference in performance between the two calibers. If you go to www.ktog.org and look up the P-3AT section and compare it with the P-32 section you'll see much less postings regarding problems. I just think the .380 round may be a little much for this size gun, combined with the P-3AT's "issues", and bullet performance, I would go back in time and have tried the 32.

Wilson 17&26
January 4, 2005, 12:20 AM
http://www.wilson-genealogy.com/pics/hcp32st.gif
For plinking I prefer the P-32 above. The slide lock and 8 preloaded magazines can make for a bunch of range fun. When carried for deep concealment as a primary, reloading is a consideration, which is another good reason for a P-32. However, as a backup to a primary weapon I see no need for a slide-stop, which makes the P-3AT below a good choice as it makes a bigger hole. These and all of my other Kel-Tec mouseguns function flawlessly and for $200 are hard to beat. YMMV
http://www.wilson-genealogy.com/pics/p-3atwmags.gif

Dave R
January 4, 2005, 01:03 AM
I had a P-32, then traded it in on a -3AT.

My -3AT jammed with Russian Silver Bear .380, but has never jammed with brass-cased ammo. I reload for it now. It really likes the Speer Gold Dots, either in commercial ammo or my reloads. I don't find it uncomfortable to shoot,

Best of all, I can practice draw/fire drills in the garage with Speer's plastic training bullets.

g56
January 4, 2005, 01:42 AM
Regardless of your choice, always aim for center of mass, it's hard enough to shoot accurately when under stress, much less with a tiny pistol without much in the way of sights!

Double tap center of mass, if they don't go down, then shoot for the head.

Alan Fud
January 4, 2005, 01:47 AM
I can't speak about the guns but the .380 is nearly twice as effective as the .32 according to M&S. Of course, if the .380 fails to function properly, than you're better off with the .32ACP.

Bob79
March 2, 2005, 01:01 PM
The .380 is twice as effective as the .32? In what aspect? I would like to see those numbers... :scrutiny:

MICHAEL T
March 2, 2005, 02:07 PM
That falls under M&S, Fairy Tells . Out of those short barrells not likely to be much difference. Use ball and pickone. Myself I'd go with P 32 as the 380 doesn't have that good of record for being relieable.

JMag
March 2, 2005, 02:09 PM
Kel-Tec has made a major revision to the .380 model. There is a reason for that change.

Wilson 17&26
March 2, 2005, 02:21 PM
“There is a reason for that change.”

You’re right. The round bar stock steel they are using on their new milling machine will produce three times the slides in the same time the old machinery could produce from hex bar steel. I hope this new efficiency along with fewer parts in the new design, will permit them to keep prices reasonable.

Lennyjoe
March 2, 2005, 06:12 PM
My -3AT jammed with Russian Silver Bear .380
As did mine. Now I have 44 rounds of that crap sitting in my safe collecting dust.

My P3AT has digested everything else but the silver bear.

CZ-100
March 2, 2005, 08:25 PM
I have one of the early P3AT's SN 11xx. This gun has been great right out of the box. Over 1000 rds thur it. :)

The_Shootist
March 3, 2005, 11:18 PM
Go with the P-32 - more reliable and easier on the hands in an extended range session. I can easily burn 100-150 rds of .32ACP at the range and not feel it. I'm not so sure I could put in those numbers with the .380 version.

My criteria now for buying ANY pistol has to be:

1) Reasonable CCW piece
2) Fun to shoot
3) Has to look at least reasonably good (although I bought a Glock 19 so
you can see why this is rule # 3 :D ).

The P-32 fits all those criteria (for a mouse gun). Coupled with the fact it will eat ANYTHING! Winchester Whitebox, Corbon, Remington, UMC, Federal H/S...anything! Mine has never had any rimlock, FTF, FTE or misc jams.

Also, check out www.KTRange.com or GoldenLoki.com and look at the Federal Hydra-Shok tests. If a .32ACP round expands (at least under test conditions) to .43 calibre and penetrates 9-10 inches, it would really have to be a bad day in the neighborhood for you not to have a fighting chance. :what:

Steelharp
March 4, 2005, 12:38 AM
Go with the P-32 ... I can easily burn 100-150 rds of .32ACP at the range and not feel it.

I don't mean this as literally nor as sarcastic as it's probably going to look like... but I wonder if the attacker on the receiving end might not have the same opinion, in whatever "altered state" they might be in at the time...

JMag
March 4, 2005, 01:03 AM
Efficiency
“There is a reason for that change.”

You’re right. The round bar stock steel they are using on their new milling machine will produce three times the slides in the same time the old machinery could produce from hex bar steel. I hope this new efficiency along with fewer parts in the new design, will permit them to keep prices reasonable.

You are saying the change is only for efficiency?? It is a totally different slide and current P3ATs are not swapable with the new as I understand it. It appears there is much more to it than an efficiency gig.

Wilson 17&26
March 4, 2005, 11:58 AM
“It is a totally different slide and current P3ATs are not swapable with the new as I understand it. It appears there is much more to it than an efficiency gig.”

Sorry, I not sure to what “appears” refers. Many parts can’t be interchanged because they aren’t as many parts in the new design and the slides are different shapes due to starting with different steel stock.

I know the slightly bulkier slide and barrel are 15% heavier than the first generation, which will help some folks with limpwristing. But I doubt that would generate enough additional business to justify the new design. Unless someone can offer a better reason, I’ll continue to believer it’s more about cost savings than anything else. In fact, I hope it is about cost savings. I own a bunch of Kel-Tec pistols and I want them to be in business for a long long time, so I can have lifetime warranties on my pistols.

The new design, which uses round bar steel in lieu of hex bar steel stock should save considerable. The reduced number of parts should produce savings in assembly, inventory maintenance and repair if needed. New milling machines are faster which should provide a larger number of units per day, hopefully increasing the number of P-3AT, which can be sold by Kel-Tec to Distributors. Theses are all good things, so why should there need to be more.

The new design still produces smillies but I have never found that to be a big deal. If folks think it buggers up their JHP so they don’t expand, they can switch to Cor-Bon PowR’ball. To reduce magazine cracking, Kel-Tec has requested Meg-Gar use better steel, so that can’t be the reason. Although, a heavier slide and barrel should assist a bit but I’m still bet my dollars on production savings.

I think the weight will not be that noticeable to consumers between the two versions of the P-3ATs but it will be more noticeable when compared to the P-32, which will now be 25% lighter.

One thing I think Kel-Tec should work on is reducing the protrusion of the Frankenstein Bolt (hex screw) on the slide. There should be some way of recessing or flattening it, which would keep it from looking like an after thought.

I have several first-generation P-3ATs and I will be purchasing a second generation in a month or two. I won’t be purchasing it because I think there are any improvements in its operation. I’ll be buying it just to add to my Kel-Tec mousegun collection :)

If I find any major improvements in second generation over first, I’ll be sure to post them, as will others, I trust.

Bob79
March 4, 2005, 02:09 PM
I know you have alot of knowledge about these guns (I've read at KTOG too), so how come they aren't going to fix the "smiley" problem? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it really odd that they consider a gun design to be OK when it deforms a bullet? Bullets are manufactured to a specific shape/design to perform how they were intended, and when they get banged up it changes that. I would have thought they would have fixed this for the "new" P-3AT.

Also isn't the new extractor bigger to improve extraction as this was an issue? I hope Kel-Tec makes this little .380 better this time around, I had some problems with mine so I sold it. Maybe I just limp wristed, but it wasn't reliable in regards to feeding the rounds. I questioned that the .380 round might be too much for such a little gun, and wished I had tried the P-32 instead (almost same exact size). But I hope the increased weight, and "improvements" make this a more solid gun. If the reviews here are good maybe I'll try one out again, I just wish Kel-Tec would charge a little more $$$ and do some more Q/C, I'd glady pay $350+ for a solid .380 in the new slightly larger size :rolleyes:

Wilson 17&26
March 4, 2005, 05:19 PM
While I have nothing official, a Kel-Tec employee, who should know, said they were building 1,000 P-3ATs per week. At that rate there are surely 55,000-60,000 P-3ATs out there that have likely fired more than a million rounds. If the smillies haven’t caused a pistol to self-destruct by now, chances are they won’t. Bullet performance would be more difficult to judge in the real world. I guess you could try to sue Kel-Tec if it took three bullets to kill a BG instead of two :) All I know is, the report by a second-generation owner is, smillies are still there.

A new claw shaped extractor was being used on some of the last of the generation-one P-3ATs along with a horizontal ejector. None of my P-3ATs have these features and function flawlessly. Either I’m lucky or I’ve done a great job of fine-tuning my Kel-Tec pistols.

Truth be known, my last few Kel-Tecs have worked so well, I now devote most of my tinker-time to cosmetics (note silver trigger below), not function. I miss the old days.

http://www.wilson-genealogy.com/pics/hcb-p-3atwmag.jpg

hgray14
September 11, 2006, 10:42 PM
My P3AT kicks a little bit more but it isn't bad. As far as reliability goes there are a couple of key points to make about your defensive guns. First of all, if you have probably trained on how to clear a malfunction than it doesn't really matter what you carry as long as you are comfortable with it. I can clear a type one, type two or even a type three in less time than it takes most people to look down at their gun and figure out that something is wrong. If you are going to carry you owe it to yourself, your loved ones and the rest of us to know your gun so well that your chances of having a negligent discharge are minimal. Second of all, gun fights don't last into the 100+ round range. Most gun fights only last for a round or two (unless you are law enforcement or military in which case these little pea-shooters are going to be no closer than your second back-up) so all you need to do is make sure that your gun can fire at least one magazine without malfunctioning (don't call it a 'jam'...a 'jam' is something that can't be fixed quickly or easily, a malfunction is. You can clear a malfunction during battle; if you get a 'jam' you need to transition to an alternate weapon) in a stressful environment. What I mean by this is take your gun and shoot it while you are moving, shoot it one handed, shoot it off balance. You are not going to be standing at the bench at a range when you get in a gun battle. You also aren't going to get to a second magazine (does anyone really carry more than one mag for these deep concealment back-up guns?) so who cares if it will fire 100 rounds without a malfunction. Your conceal carry or home defense guns should be clean! After practicing with them clean them. If you don't clean your hunting rifle, your trap gun or your plinking gun who cares; your defensive gun is the one that is going to save your life so it needs to be clean and ready to go when you really need it. That is why I say it only needs to be able to not malfunction for at least one magazine. One other thing to remember. Most times that a gun is used in self defense it is never fired. This means that if you are more comfortable with something that is small caliber or that isn't all that reliable it is still better than nothing since just the sight of it is going to send 99.9% of the thugs running away. Nobody looks at a .32 pointed at them and says, "that isn't a big caliber, I think I will take my chances". No way, they start to duck and run, like any of us would. If you are a little old man living in the hood and all you have is a piece of crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without. Just learn how to clear malfunctions quickly and you will be just about as good as new.

just a few thoughts...

Houston

brett30030
September 11, 2006, 11:40 PM
Cough, Cough, that one came out of the cobwebs.

I agree that having a weapon adds an intimidation factor, but i would have to disagree that a "crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without". I don't want to give any quarter to a criminal, but if you pull a gun, shoot and miss (or misfire), followed by a jam, you are asking to be murdered. What if the BG's original intention was a simple robbery, but when you pulled and miss (or misfired), you just elevated the situation. A well functioning, reliable weapon is the responsibility of anyone that carries. The life you lose may not be yours, but one of those you are with. I have no personal beef with you, but i find your thoughts irresponsible at best.:banghead:

And that is my few thoughts,

Juna
September 12, 2006, 12:04 AM
I'm looking at both of these pistols, too, for my wife and for me for deep cover CCW. Basically, from what I've read the P32 seems to get the best reviews & be the most reliable & fun to shoot. People seem to think the P-3AT has too much recoil (small, light gun with a decently potent caliber).

The down side to the P32 is, I was at WalMart the other day, and .32 ACP (~$20 for 50 rds) is about twice as expensive as .380 ACP (~$20 for 100 rds).

As far as I can tell, that's the only real advantage of the P-3AT that I can see. Yes, it's a larger caliber, but only marginally so. For it's intended purpose (an in your face, up your gut gun) it wouldn't make much difference.

Anyone else have ammo price comparisons between the two?

pocketgun
September 12, 2006, 02:52 AM
My P3AT kicks a little bit more but it isn't bad. As far as reliability goes there are a couple of key points to make about your defensive guns. First of all, if you have probably trained on how to clear a malfunction than it doesn't really matter what you carry as long as you are comfortable with it. I can clear a type one, type two or even a type three in less time than it takes most people to look down at their gun and figure out that something is wrong. If you are going to carry you owe it to yourself, your loved ones and the rest of us to know your gun so well that your chances of having a negligent discharge are minimal. Second of all, gun fights don't last into the 100+ round range. Most gun fights only last for a round or two (unless you are law enforcement or military in which case these little pea-shooters are going to be no closer than your second back-up) so all you need to do is make sure that your gun can fire at least one magazine without malfunctioning (don't call it a 'jam'...a 'jam' is something that can't be fixed quickly or easily, a malfunction is. You can clear a malfunction during battle; if you get a 'jam' you need to transition to an alternate weapon) in a stressful environment. What I mean by this is take your gun and shoot it while you are moving, shoot it one handed, shoot it off balance. You are not going to be standing at the bench at a range when you get in a gun battle. You also aren't going to get to a second magazine (does anyone really carry more than one mag for these deep concealment back-up guns?) so who cares if it will fire 100 rounds without a malfunction. Your conceal carry or home defense guns should be clean! After practicing with them clean them. If you don't clean your hunting rifle, your trap gun or your plinking gun who cares; your defensive gun is the one that is going to save your life so it needs to be clean and ready to go when you really need it. That is why I say it only needs to be able to not malfunction for at least one magazine. One other thing to remember. Most times that a gun is used in self defense it is never fired. This means that if you are more comfortable with something that is small caliber or that isn't all that reliable it is still better than nothing since just the sight of it is going to send 99.9% of the thugs running away. Nobody looks at a .32 pointed at them and says, "that isn't a big caliber, I think I will take my chances". No way, they start to duck and run, like any of us would. If you are a little old man living in the hood and all you have is a piece of crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without. Just learn how to clear malfunctions quickly and you will be just about as good as new.

just a few thoughts...

Houston

So let me get this straight: It is important to know how to clear a malfunction, but a spare mag is a waste of effort because there will be no time to reload anyway. If I don't have time to reload, where am I going to get the time to clear a malfunction? But hold on, why worry about clearing it at all? After all, according to your post, it need not even be reliable for carry! And if it need not be reliable, why bother ever cleaning it, which you seem to think is so very important?

I am really trying to understand how you could make a post so incredibly ill-considered. I have come to the conclusion that you cannot possibly be serious and are just playing for a reaction. :uhoh:

jlh26oo
September 12, 2006, 03:35 AM
If you are a little old man living in the hood and all you have is a piece of crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without.
Ahem...
don't call it a 'jam'...a 'jam' is something that can't be fixed quickly or easily, a malfunction is. You can clear a malfunction during battle

SOLID 1st post, but had to burn you on that one lol (sorry). Just about everything you say makes sense to me though. Malfunctions they are. Only points with which I disagree are reliability standards. For me to trust anything, for any number of rounds, I need to see it demonstrate a level of reliability several times over what will likely be required of it (ie I appreciate ridiculously arbitrary yet impressive G torture tests, do have a problem with "carry alot, shoot a little" brand mottos, and want to have the option to shoot any gun I own, as much as I care to*.



*AAYMFMMV

kokapelli
September 12, 2006, 11:45 AM
Having owned two P-32s and now three P-3ATs, I can't figure out why the P-32 has a reputation as being more reliable than a P-3AT?

IMO if anything, the P-3AT is more reliable than the P-32, because of the possibility of getting "rimlock" in any 32acp.

Yes the early P-3ATs had some problems, but so did the early P-32s.

The P-3ATs that are being produced today are every bit as reliable as a P-32 and don't have the possibility of "rimlock".

As far as recoil is concerned, I find the P-3AT to have heavier but not as sharp recoil as the P-32.

Headless
September 12, 2006, 12:43 PM
If a gun 'malfunctions' or 'jams' or anything of the like when firing only 100 rounds out of it, i am damn sure not betting my life on it. I've fired over 500 rounds out of my 9mm S&W, dirty and clean, solid lead and JHP in a row without cleaning, and never had a 'jam' or 'malfunction'. I've fired ~7000rounds out of it without a single 'malfunction' or 'jam'. That's what i'd bet my life on. If you pull a gun and it jams or 'malfunctions' or whatever you want to call it, you'd better start praying the BG isn't stronger than you or armed because you are going down for the count. When someone realises you just tried to kill them and failed, they are going to go positively apesh** on you. This is a great reason why people don't carry rimfire .22's for personal defense; they are horrifically unreliable (in addition to being woefully underpowered as far as immediate stops go, though they'll kill people dead just fine. Slowly.) Sure, i've fired 10 or 20 mags of .22 rimfires from my semi 22A without any problems, but then i've fired 4 magazines in a row with 3-4 FTF's or FTE's.
Have fun trying to clear a stovepipe/FTE that's stuck in the chamber while some maniac stabs you repeatedly in the throat.

kokapelli
September 12, 2006, 02:51 PM
Headless, I have a little different take on it.

I usually shoot 29 rounds out of my P-3AT each week when I go to the range.

That's four seven round magazines (mine uses magazines) and the one that was in the chamber=29.

I clean the pistol when I get home and do the same thing next week.

I would guess that I have done this at least 200 times with one of my P-3ATs without a failure.

This proves to my satisfaction that this pistol is as reliable as it's going to get for a self defense siduation.

Being able to shoot 100 rounds without a failure is not a factor for me.

I can't imagine getting into a 100 round shoot out in a self defense siduation and even if it did occure, I never carry 100 rounds in my pocket anyway.

My P-3AT has been proven over 200 times for my needs.

pocketgun
September 12, 2006, 05:51 PM
Mine uses magazines too! :D

kokapelli, you do about the same thing I do. I usually shoot 50 rounds through my P-3AT at the range. If I am going to shoot more, I stop and spend about 5 minutes wiping down the ramp/chamber and re-lubing. No failures in over 1000 rounds with this method. During reliability testing I did the same thing but stopped after 25 rounds. I am quite confident that my pistol will function as desired should I ever need it. The most ammo I ever have on me (for my P-3AT) is 14 rounds, BTW.

Show me a 9mm auto that is capable of firing 500 rounds in a row without malfunctions or cleaning and fits comfortably in my pocket and I will buy it.

kokapelli
September 12, 2006, 05:57 PM
Show me a 9mm auto that is capable of firing 500 rounds in a row without malfunctions or cleaning and fits comfortably in my pocket and I will buy it.

pocketgun, "and fits comfortably in my pocket' are the magic words.

I agree 100%.

Headless
September 13, 2006, 10:51 AM
S&W 3913 (if you're a bigger guy) or s&w CS9 if smaller.
mine use magazines too, thanks for catching the totally unrelated grammatical error in my post ;)

pocketgun
September 13, 2006, 05:56 PM
Both the 3913 and CS9 are a good bit bigger than my Kel-Tec P-11, and that is too big for comfortable pocket carry for me, because it prints "gun" and is large enough that it is prone to snagging during a draw. Stuffing a compact version of a combat pistol in a pocket is not the same thing as having a pistol designed for pocket carry.

The only true pocket pistol in 9x19 I know of is the Rohrbaugh R9. The Kahr PM9 and MK9, as well as the upcoming Kel-Tec PF-9, are on the large side for pocket carry , but will work given the right type of pocket and holster. I wouldn't bet that any of the four just listed could make it through 500 rounds without a cleaning or malfunction (when dirty), but then again, that was never what they were designed to do.

IMO, if you want the convenience of pocket carry, you have to accept the limits of what can be done with very small size and light weight, and compensate by keeping your pocket pistol clean and lubed. If you are unwilling to perform a simple routine cleaning after shooting, then a Glock or some other combat design is a better choice, but is best carried on a belt.

Headless
September 13, 2006, 06:40 PM
I have no problem cleaning my guns and do every time i fire more than 10 rounds out of them at the range. I actually enjoy cleaning my guns.

My S&W model 642 is bigger than the CS9 (though with a slightly smaller grip/different shape) and is widely accepted as one of the most perfect pocket carry guns around. I don't see how you can think of the CS9 as too big. To each his own, i suppose.

up_onus
September 13, 2006, 06:50 PM
they are small!!! carry both!!!!

kokapelli
September 13, 2006, 07:11 PM
Both the 3913 and CS9 are a good bit bigger than my Kel-Tec P-11, and that is too big

Does anyone know how thick the CS9 actually is?

I have been interesed in the Chiefs special CS9, but have not been able to find out how thick they are.

pocketgun
September 13, 2006, 07:15 PM
I think the CS9 is too big just on the weight alone. It is 20.8 ounces unloaded, so figure it is about 24 ounces when loaded to full 7+1 capacity. That is a lot of weight to carry in a pocket for any length of time, and I am in the habit of being armed whenever I am outside my residence. IMO, 24 ounces means a holster is an absolute must, and the already thick profile of the pistol now must be made larger by surrounding it in leather. Hopefully, the holster will hide the shape of the gun, which is going to be pretty obvious otherwise. I say the holster is mandatory due to the fact a pistol that is 1.5 pounds loaded is going to wear away the insides of your pockets in short order without one. At least the holster will delay this wear. Now add the difficulty of making a smooth, quick draw due to the tight confines (CS9, holster, hand) in the pocket and it just seems a whole lot easier to carry a firearm of this size in a concealed belt holster of some kind.

I am not a revolver guy, but the ones I have met on the gun boards tell me there is no comparison in ease of carry between a 642 and a P-3AT (for example). Those that go this route do so for the somewhat more potent ammo and the inherent reliability of the revolver design. Also, the shape is differrent (as you mentioned) and the unloaded weight is 15 ounces. Figure loaded weight will be some 7.5 ounces less than the CS9 - about the weight of my unloaded P-3AT difference!

As you said, we each have our own criteria for what we feel comfortable with, and if you can pocket a CS9 more power to you (literally)! :D

MCgunner
September 13, 2006, 07:20 PM
Show me a 9mm auto that is capable of firing 500 rounds in a row without malfunctions or cleaning and fits comfortably in my pocket and I will buy it.

You'd better run out and get a Kel Tec P11, then. I've got one that's seen 10K+ and never jammed/malfunctioned. I have cleaned the gun between range sessions, though, but I would imagine it'd go 500 rounds no problem without cleaning. It never is that dirty when I clean it. My range sessions usually involve 100 rounds with the gun. I've owned it going on 10 years now and carry it in my pocket every day loaded with 11 rounds of +P 115 grain Hornady XTP JHP handloads. It has been reliable as any firearm I own, revolvers or automatics, and it'll still put 5 rounds into 3.5" at 25 yards.

pocketgun
September 14, 2006, 12:37 AM
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b143/pocketgun/THR/Pics/IMG_0370.jpg

OK, just got home from the gunstore...post the pic...IT DOESN'T FIT! :eek:

MCgunner, I will PM you with my name and address for the refund.

brett30030
September 15, 2006, 12:01 AM
Keltec has had their problems with reliability. I believe that those have been solved in all the current guns coming off the line. For the size and weight, nothing compares. There are definitely some better guns out there as far as multi-round reliability, but all that i know of weigh considerably more. I had my doubts when i bought my p3, but i now cannot understand why someone could carry something that may weigh 1.5-4 times as much and consider it comparable. I do not plan on using mine to fight an extended gun battle (i.e. 15+ rounds). I use mine to protect me as a last defense weapon (1-7 rounds). And i hope that i never have to use that.

pocketgun
September 15, 2006, 01:34 AM
OK, just got home from the gunstore...post the pic...IT DOESN'T FIT!

MCgunner, I will PM you with my name and address for the refund.

MCG, I hope you know I was only kidding you, right? :D

I have had my stainless steel P-11 (pictured above) for a while now, but carry my P-40 instead.

GlockNation
September 17, 2006, 12:03 AM
A P3AT loaded with Corbon 380 DPX is deadly. The Barnes copper bullet gives consistent reliable expansion every time and penetrates 12-17 inches.

ImprezaWRXSTi
September 17, 2006, 12:22 AM
might wanna refinish the slide...the only bad thing with kel-tec is no stainless slides!! i waited like 2 months to get hard chrome!!

kokapelli
September 17, 2006, 10:24 AM
A P3AT loaded with Corbon 380 DPX is deadly. The Barnes copper bullet gives consistent reliable expansion every time and penetrates 12-17 inches.

GlockNation, where did you get those penetration figures?

When they gelatin tested the DPX 380 at "stoppingpower.net" from a P-3AT platform,, they got very good expansion, but they only achieved a little over 6 inches of penetration!

If a bullet expands, it's like a parachute and the 380 round just does not have enough power to push an expanded bullet through 12-17 inches of gelatin or meat.

GlockNation
September 27, 2006, 01:20 AM
From Corbon's website.

It must be true. Corporations never lie.

I probably should have been a little more suspicious before I made my last post. But I still believe any DPX bullet will kill you.

Here is the URL to the LE Catalogue: Click Customer Service, then LE Catalogue download. You can see their claim for yourself:
http://www.corbon.com/?uid=12665&page=1406

40jjb
September 27, 2006, 10:28 AM
I have bouth do to some test I was running on ammo, I strongly recomend Kel tec P32, Carry it with the 32 acp FMJ remington realy has better balistic compared to the 380 acp, plus its more plesant in the shooting range, rnds cost about the same. At the end the decision is youres.

HMMurdock
September 27, 2006, 10:46 AM
I owned a P3AT and have had personal experience with an associate's P32. My P3AT, as well as two other associate's P3ATs have never failed to jam and none of us take care of them. At all. The P32 is taken care of significantly better, but still hasn't jammed. So my personal experience: Kel-Tecs are reliable little sons of fill-in-the-blanks.

As for the bite, the P3AT is significantly more but not too much to handle. Especially in a self defense scenario! I'd rather have a .380 than a .32, because my understanding is that a .380 has the same ballistics in a person as a 9mm at close range (correct me if this is wrong). The .32 is fine and better than nothing, but the P3AT isn't too much bigger in size or in bite not to go for the better caliber.

As for the .380 holding one less round, neither one is gonna exactly be a one-shot stop and neither pistol is accurate enough to take on 7 assailants, either. It's good for one or two perps mugging you and you'll wanna empty the whole thing into their chests when you do so. If you want something more accurate with enough rounds to take on a gang then get a Glock 26 and don't even consider a Kel-Tec. You'd probably stand better with a small, high-capacity .22LR in that circumstance if a 9mm is too big.

Anyone know much about the single stack 9mm Kel-Tec is coming out with soon?

But in short, I love Kel-Tecs and especially the P3ATs. Whenever I'd go downtown I'd have it in my front coat pocket with my hands right around it, out of sight. If anyone wanted to assault me I'd have lit them up and they'd never see it coming. I know an undercover cop that did that with a Beretta .22LR during a drug bust gone bad and shot it through his jacket at point blank range into the guys crotch and it ricocheted up and bounced around inside his ribcage and made swiss cheese out of the poor chaps heart. Don't underestimate a .22LR. They are small enough to penetrate and bounce around. The .32 expands enough to get caught but doesnt do as much, whereas the .380 is big enough it makes a more dangerous wound cavity.

I have no statistics on this, just word from police officers with first hand experience, but please correct this if someone has numbers... Thanks!

TRL

kokapelli
September 27, 2006, 12:02 PM
If you want something more accurate with enough rounds to take on a gang then get a Glock 26 and don't even consider a Kel-Tec. You'd probably stand better with a small, high-capacity .22LR in that circumstance if a 9mm is too big.

Are there pocket 22cal pistols that have more than 7 or 8 round magazines and how do you compare the reliability of a "rimfire" round with the reliability of a "centerfire" round?

By the way, I carry my P-3AT with a seven round magazine and one in the chamber and I'll take that over 7 or 8 rounds of 22cal anytime.

40jjb
October 1, 2006, 12:19 PM
P32 is a beter performer in rapid shooting test do to a lower recoil, They are bouth great well made pistols, they bouth perform some what diferent ballisticly spiking, but they are great consilable gund un equal to others the best out there in its class. The choice is youres.

pocketgun
October 1, 2006, 09:13 PM
I strongly recomend Kel tec P32, Carry it with the 32 acp FMJ remington realy has better balistic compared to the 380 acp...

Huh? The .380 has the advantage:

.32ACP -> Remington 71gr FMJ 784fps/92fpe out of a P-32
.380ACP -> Remington/UMC 95gr FMJ 874fps/162fpe out of a P-3AT

:scrutiny:

edited to add: More .380ACP numbers: CorBon DPX 80gr SHP 1013fps/182fpe, and CorBon Traditional 90gr JHP 983fps/193fpe out of a P-3AT. Larger diameter, heavier bullets traveling faster...

kokapelli
October 1, 2006, 09:35 PM
I have done a little looking around the "stoppingpower.net" message board for information on 32acp vs 380acp performance.

When they gelatin test, they use 4 layers of denim infront of calibrated gelatin.

They fire 5 rounds of each specific cartridge to come up with an average.

Seems that that in their tests, the 32acp was a pretty weak performer next to the 380acp round!

sigma 40ve
October 1, 2006, 10:09 PM
I have the 2nd gen P32. I carry it OFTEN. I never feel unsafe. FWIW, I can always hit clay birds at the 25 yrd berm with mine using Fiochi fmjs. Call BS all you want to on me for that statement but it is true. Enough to give a BG a headache.

Kankujoe
October 2, 2006, 12:24 AM
Got my P3AT on Friday. Did a minor F&B Friday night. Put 75 rnds thru it yesterday and another 100 rnds thru it today. No trouble shooting S&B 92gr fmj or Independence 90gr fmj. But had some FTF hangups with Brown Bear (Russian) 92gr fmj. The first one or two rnds of the BB hungup when being stripped from the clip. Had to give the slide a little push with my thumb to chamber the rnd. I suspect that it is the ammo and not the gun since the other brands had no issues. I guess that's why the BB ammo is so much cheaper.

Actually, the BB ammo did the same thing in my Walther PPK/S and I've never had this trouble with the Walther in the past 23 years.

I don't think that I will shoot the Kel-Tec P3AT more than 50 rnds at a time because it just ain't that much fun. It has been fairly accurate my first 2 outings. I shot it at 7 yards using paper plates as targets. I believe that this will be a pretty good CCW pistol.

pocketgun
October 2, 2006, 12:56 AM
Your P-3AT will probably not work well/at all with steel cased-ammo. Stick to brass, and avoid Amerc and MagSafe. WWB doesn't work well on some guns either, especially First Generation ones.

40jjb
October 2, 2006, 09:40 AM
Pocketgun have you shoot through media like pork ribbs and pork shoulder with jeans in front all attached to see the results, It will be very diferent than reported from jellatin test. 380 acp did crack the bone on the pork shoulder bouncing off it not penetrating it, 32 acp penetrated the bone and continiue, this translate reching vital organs even if there is bone struture. Just do some test if you can and share with me youre observations.

pocketgun
October 2, 2006, 06:16 PM
What exactly does shooting a bunch of pork tell me about (terminal) ballistics? Your .32 happened to penetrate when your .380 did not? Your test is not scientific and not repeatable. While an actual shooting isn't very scientific either, I don't see how you can make the leap from shooting some pork to concluding that the .32ACP will perform better on a human being. You just cannot make an accurate comparison of performance when you are using a test media that is effectively different depending on the exact location of each shot.

In any event, the .380ACP is certainly superior in terms of in-air ballistics to the .32ACP, specifically to the Remington round you cited.

40jjb
October 3, 2006, 11:15 AM
You are right no test is acurate, Wether its Jellatin, Pork, Live animals, Metal medias, any kind of media used is repetable but not exact, is a estamit, Unsertanty, unless you use a live human subject and conduct test you will never now. My test were just for fun, knolydge and informatio, I came to the conclution for my satisfaction, No THE TEST WERE NOT SCIENTIFIC AT ALL! But an eye opener. I am glad you feel so strong about the 380acp, I feel good and strong about the 32acp, This is why is great to LIVE IN THE USA we have freedom of choice. Great pocketgun I would not like to be shot with a 32acp or a 380acp, By the way I have been shot 2 time one with a Markarov German round and the other with a walther PPK 380 acp, One was an asoult , the other was teaching a friend how to shoot, Bouth at close range less than 3 feet away, Place of impact first big ribb from the bottom up of the right side Thanks to GOD Round bounced off recoshade off the ribb not penetrating my skin but cousing a foot long scratch , it followed my shert from right to left made a nice hole on the left side of my shert. All shootings are not the same but I am a Surviver and I speek by experience. By the way It was steel painfull and man I had a black and blue for a long time!!!!!!!!

pocketgun
October 3, 2006, 05:18 PM
You are lucky to be alive!

It is not that I "feel strongly" about .380ACP, I just think it has better numbers than .32ACP, even if it isn't a large difference.

brett30030
October 3, 2006, 10:29 PM
40jjb

Where country are you posting from?

brownie0486
October 3, 2006, 11:38 PM
The Sellier and Bellot 73 grain 32acp ball gives 177 fpe, while the fiocchi 73 grain 32 ball gives 168 fpe in 32acp guise. Not much difference in those numbers and the 380's energy dumps given by others, seems to me:D

I've got S+B 73 grain ball loaded in two of my p32's. They penetrate 12-14 inches with ball, and I don't believe anyone is going to stand up to 4 of them as fast as I can pull the trigger. Oh, before I forget, I can pull the trigger faster with better accuracy [ less recoil ] with the 32acp over the 380 Keltecs to boot.;)

I don't want jhp's in these mouse guns. I want penetration first as that can be expected from the rounds "ball" design specifically with the S+B and Fiocchi fodder. No question on adequate penetration of either loading.

Jhp's will not get deep enough and likely will not expand to begin with, so why use them at all. If they were to expand, you'll be getting less penetration, and that is a bad thing.

Go with what you know on the mouse rounds, ball ammo, and specifically the hotter/heavier ball ammo from european makers like S+B and Fiocchi.

Brownie

pocketgun
October 4, 2006, 01:08 AM
The numbers I have for S&B 73gr FMJ out of a P-32 are 135fpe, and 120fpe for the Fiocchi 73gr FMJ. If you are going to compare ammo, barrel length is everything, at least when it comes to pocket pistols. The S&B is about as hot as you can get in .32ACP ball. The hottest non-expanding .380ACP I have seen is the increasingly-rare Santa Barbara de Toledo 88gr FNEB which managed 194fpe from a P-3AT. So that means that the hottest conventional stuff in each comes out with .380ACP having nearly 44% more energy, if energy is what you are after.

brownie0486
October 4, 2006, 01:19 AM
I don't go for energy, I go for penetration. The faster the bulllet moves in ball, the more penetration you get. With the 32acp, thats 12-14 inches, and enough to get to vital organs.

A 380 hp would be hard pressed to get that deep which most will carry in these guns, to the detriment of penetration and hitting vitals reliably.

If I were interested in expansion for the mouse guns, I'd go with hp's in either caliber, but no one is guaranteed expansion in any caliber reliably on the street, so a reliably penetrating round is in order for the mousers, and in that case, either is fine, but the 32 is easier to shoot with less recoil resulting in more rds in tighter groupings.

Brownie

pocketgun
October 4, 2006, 01:28 AM
I have heard the penetration argument, but I don't think it translates well in pocket pistols. I am working on an explanation of why, and will eventually post it elsewhere for your consideration. :)

BTW, the 177fpe for the S&B is out of a 3.94" barrel per their 2006 catalog; P-32 has a 2.68" barrel, hence the disparity.

brownie0486
October 4, 2006, 01:30 AM
Looking forward to your reasoning on penetration sir.

Always looking for more information than less where the loads for the mousers are concerned.;)

Brownie

pocketgun
October 4, 2006, 01:32 AM
It may/may not convince you to change. Then again, your counter argument may change my opinion as well. Every edge I can get with a little pistol I want. ;)

kokapelli
October 4, 2006, 11:22 AM
A 380 hp would be hard pressed to get that deep which most will carry in these guns, to the detriment of penetration and hitting vitals reliably

That would be incorrect.

In the 380 gelatin tests done by the stoppingpower.net group, the 380 rounds that did not expand went completely through 16" gelatin blocks!

Matter of fact, on one of those real life police shows on tv, The police were investigating a death where the victim had been shot with a 380.

The round went completely through the guy, the back of his seat in his car, through the back seat and was found in the trunk!

The police investigator was surprised and said he did not realize that a 380 round would penetrate that deep.

40jjb
October 5, 2006, 04:32 PM
So let me see a 380acp rd whent from the chest of the victim, through the back of his seet, through the back seet and in the trunk, I bet it was a FMJ, also not totatly prdictable how rnd are going to work each time, So Did the round come through the windshield to , I meen if the victim got shot in the front seet the round or trajectory had to be coming strait at him from the widshield, Weach then it might not have been a 380 acp, it might have been a FMJ 9mm. By the way I'm in The USA.

kokapelli
October 5, 2006, 04:40 PM
The shot was fired from inside of the car.

It turned out, it was a suicide and the victim still had the pistol in his hand.

By the way, I could clearly see that the pistol was a Bersa.

I thought it was strange that he shot himself in the chest!

Usually a person commiting suicide will shoot themselves in the head.

nelson133
October 5, 2006, 07:45 PM
If you want to see a real test of .380 penetration, check out theboxoftruth website.

kokapelli
October 5, 2006, 08:18 PM
Thanks Nelson.

That is a pretty good source for ammo performance.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

brownie0486
October 5, 2006, 10:21 PM
In the 380 gelatin tests done by the stoppingpower.net group, the 380 rounds that did not expand went completely through 16" gelatin blocks!

Precisely why I do not use anything but ball in the 32 and why if a 380HP opens at all, it will not be as deep as the 32.

Brownie

kokapelli
October 6, 2006, 10:45 AM
Precisely why I do not use anything but ball in the 32 and why if a 380HP opens at all, it will not be as deep as the 32.

brownie, do you mean the 380will not penetrate as deeply as a 32 expanded HP or as deep as a 32 fmj?

brownie0486
October 6, 2006, 11:07 AM
Sorry if I was unclear with that last post sir.

A 32 ball will penetrate deeper than a 380hp that expands.

Most ball will go deeper/further than HP's that expand

Where you from in Az Kokapelli? I'm east of Phoenix

Brownie

kokapelli
October 6, 2006, 11:16 AM
Where you from in Az Kokapelli? I'm east of Phoenix

Brownie

I'm at the extreme southeast corner of Maricopa county and on the border of the Gila River Indian reservation.

brownie0486
October 6, 2006, 11:17 AM
Gila River in that area is a good location.

Brownie

40jjb
October 8, 2006, 01:02 PM
I agree with the information on gold...... wed site, 32 acp great little rnd. I just bought 4 extended 10 rnd mags for my P32 great fun at the range.

MCgunner
October 8, 2006, 01:21 PM
I look upon .32 as I do .25, usable on mice. I really don't like to carry the .380, but if I need maximum concealment, it's my bottom level cartridge. I shoot a 90 grain Hornady XTP JHP out of mine at about 200 ft lbs, pretty accurate and 100 percent reliable. I want expansion and the XTP will penetrate enough. It's gonna take more'n one round at this level, I'm afraid, no matter what. I haven't got a P3AT YET, though. I am thinking I will pick one up. You can hide that thing no matter what you decide to wear. I doubt I'd carry it much, prefer my .38 snub or my 9mm Kel Tec P11, but there are times when those guns just won't do, just a tad too big. A P3AT would be a good back up, too. I just have absolutely no confidence in the .32 cartridge, a little more with the .380. There is a place in the wardrobe for this size of pocket gun, though, even if the calibers are marginal. The P3AT is just as concealable as the little .32, so why would I go for the weaker cartridge? There isn't a point. The P3AT from what I've read is a good, reliable, almost accurate gun. I don't think there's a big difference in reliability and I'd give the edge to the rimless .380 ACP at any rate, no possibility of "rim lock".

Whirlwind06
October 8, 2006, 10:27 PM
I just ordered a KT 32. For those few times that I can't carry a bigger gun. But those really are far a few between. I was just at a family gathering today. Packing my 1911 Officer's model. T-shirt and jeans. I guess if I had the .32 I might have carried that instead. Left the .45 in the car. I'm sure if I would have gotten "made" it would not have gone over very well.

I had the KT .380, a few problems when I got it. I traded it for a .38 snub. That turned out to be not very reliable. Sold the .38 at a gun show after the 2nd trip back from the factory. I spent sometime lurking on ktog.org, before I made this purchase. It seems like the .32 has less problems then the .380.

One downside of the .32 seems to be the cost of the ammo. I guess I'll be reloading .32s soon. :)

GlockNation
October 9, 2006, 08:56 AM
Also, check this article out:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Bersa%20Thunder.htm

In which the author states:

"the good folks at Corbon were listening and have completed work on their .380 DPX. This standard pressure load uses a solid copper alloy bullet with a large hollow cavity. It has been tweaked by Corbon to provide both expansion and still meet the FBI's 12" minimum."

kokapelli
October 9, 2006, 11:01 AM
Also, check this article out:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Bersa%20Thunder.htm
Mr. Camp is extrapolating his wet pack results to gelatin.

Here are actual calibrated gelatin test results of the DPX 380 round fired from a P-3AT.

Test were done by the good people at stoppingpower.net.

The gelatin has 4 layers of denim barrier.

Expansion is great, but penetration is poor!

Penetration: 6.75
Recovered Weight: 80.8 gr.
Expansion*: .732 cal.
Velocity: 958.6 fps

MCgunner
October 9, 2006, 12:42 PM
If you have to resort to ball ammo, I'd just move up to the 9mm in a compact gun. The PF9 is out now, ya know.

I will NEVER carry ball for self defense. I'm a hunter and have actual experience in watching critters run off when bullets don't expand. Funny thing is how such a tiny hollowpoint as a .22LR has can make all the difference anchoring a rabbit.

Like I say, .380 is marginal and I don't like to resort to carrying it, but sometimes you just have to. .32? Nah, I have .22s for that job and the ammo's a lot cheaper and no .32 can match the concealability of my NAA mini revolver. .32 is a lot closer in actual ballistics to the .22 LR than it is to the .380, sorry, just fact. If a .32 is putting up 120 ft lbs, it's likely out of a 4" pressure barrel, maybe even 6". Out of a P32 I doubt ANY .32 could break a hundred ft lbs. A good .22 out of a 1" mini will put up 75 ft lbs. My .380 puts up just below 200 ft lbs. It has almost 3" of barrel and packs 12 rounds (11+1) At least I have another round if the first 11 don't work. :D

If I was paranoid I wouldn't get enough penetration, I do have a handload that involves a 105 grain SWC, a Lee .358 mold that I size to .357 and load in .380 acp. I can push this bullet to about 200 ft lbs. and it's very reliable. It has a long nose that feeds well even in my Grendel and the flat SWC profile would be WAY, WAY better than any round nose ball for doing tissue damage on the way through the target. 105 grains doesn't hurt penetration, either. I could whip a few of these up if someone wanted to test them in jello, but I'm not a jello guy. I load this bullet down a bit for practice. This bullet is VERY accurate in everything I've tried it, from .38 revolvers to 9mm to .380, my little secret. :D

Whirlwind06
October 9, 2006, 02:11 PM
PF9 is on my shopping list. :)
Waiting for it to actually show up in the shops.

Reloading for practice. I'll get a factory load for carry, maybe +P. I guess there .32 +P out there.
Well if it is as good as a .22 at least it is a center fire .22 :)
And weighs less the most .22 auto loaders I have seen.
Like said this will be the only carry gun about twice a year if that.


/ sarcasm on
And we all know that more people have and been killed with a .22 then any other round ;)
sarcasm off/

kokapelli
October 9, 2006, 03:05 PM
32? Nah, I have .22s for that job and the ammo's a lot cheaper and no .32 can match the conceal ability of my NAA mini revolver.
Right and the NAA mini revolver only holds 5 rounds, needs to be cocked for every round and takes about 30 seconds to reload, if your good!

I had a NAA mini revolver and couldn't hit the side of a barn with it, even when I was inside the barn.

.32 is a lot closer in actual ballistics to the .22 LR than it is to the .380, sorry, just fact. If a .32 is putting up 120 ft lbs, it's likely out of a 4" pressure barrel, maybe even 6". Out of a P32 I doubt ANY .32 could break a hundred ft lbs. A good .22 out of a 1" mini will put up 75 ft lbs.

You are just kidding! Right?

If your not, I would like to refer you to the website below for a true comparison of 32acp vs 22 cal.


http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm

40jjb
October 15, 2006, 09:43 AM
This week end I bought the new stile winchester 32acp 60 gr. it performed better than the old stile it even expanded shadering bone material. I have these test on film, its great the results, Mabe the new 380 acp also performs beter than the old stile, I call the old stile like the one goldylock used in his test, I had these for quite a while, The ones I call new that have been out there for a while also look like the old XTP but in silver. All of these expanded or desintigrated into several separet pieces. they all reach betwin 6"-7" still not deep but they shadered bone material in stead of bouncing off. This is why I will try the 380 new silver tips. I will inform the results.......:cuss: :banghead: :confused: :what:

51Cards
October 16, 2006, 02:02 AM
Got a P-3AT about 9 months ago. It FTE'd & FTF'd on every magazine, and never ejected the bottom round. Also damn near broke my wrist.

Had my FFL send it back to KT. A month later --- Presto! New slide. Now I understand the "busted wrist" syndrome --- the slide wasn't coming out of battery properly, which explains all the other nonsense.

Took it from the FFL directly to the range and dumped 100 rounds through it, with no problems. Wasn't even like the same gun.

Since then, it has performed "better" (i.e., fewer jams) than my Defender. Go figure.

So --- two weeks after buying the P-3AT, I asked the dealer if he'd take it back. (Well, he knew I was kidding ...) Now, it pretty much stays in my pocket at home. I figure it just might give me time to get to something more "meaningful."

I feed it Federals and Silvertips. I'm inclined toward the Federals.

BTW --- this is Long Island, locked in the Stone Age where only the BG's are supposed to carry. So even my "Carry" permit isn't quite what it should be. Realistically, this makes a difference in what one tends to "wear." In a different locale, a slightly odd lump would make less fuss.

P-3AT's are invisible. Feed them properly, get a death-grip them, aim high (seems they all shoot low), and keep them clean.

pocketgun
October 16, 2006, 02:33 AM
BTW --- this is Long Island, locked in the Stone Age where only the BG's are supposed to carry. So even my "Carry" permit isn't quite what it should be. Realistically, this makes a difference in what one tends to "wear." In a different locale, a slightly odd lump would make less fuss.

Been there, done that - sad state of affairs when you are more afraid of the law then violent criminals. :banghead:

Glad to hear KT was able to get your pistol to perform properly. :cool:

It isn't a "death grip" you need, but a locked wrist and a firm grip IMO.

40jjb
October 22, 2006, 10:54 AM
I have done the same test with Cor bon's new ammo 32 acp, 60 gr 1,050 fps and 380 acp cor bon 1050 fps. shooting through Pork shoulder, jeans, bottles, books and others, Penetration on bouth were the same, 10"- 12" same disruption of tishue and bone matter, same results, they all expanded or fragmented:what:I have changed my mind :banghead: so my opinion has change, By the way when I purchased the COR BON it wasn't + P ammo, I called them and the techy adviced me they were using a new blend of powder that they reserch, kept the presure normal while giving more velocity, Means less damage to youre pistol. I think is great job by Cor Bon, So on these 2 rds 32acp & 380 acp Cor Bon hollow point then FMJ I am now carrying COR BONs uding Kel tec P3at, P32.:D

kokapelli
October 22, 2006, 11:09 AM
I called them and the techy adviced me they were using a new blend of powder that they reserch, kept the presure normal while giving more velocity.

Sounds like magic to me!:rolleyes:

40jjb
October 22, 2006, 04:23 PM
All it is a faster burning powder, NO MAGIC

kokapelli
October 22, 2006, 05:55 PM
All it is a faster burning powder, NO MAGIC

OK, I don't know anything about loading ammo, but if you use a faster buring powder, won't that increase chamber pressure?

orionengnr
October 22, 2006, 06:11 PM
The P32 has slide lock back on empty, and I heard they were a bit more reliable than the P380. Any more info on this?
At close quarters last ditch defense gun, it won't make much difference if the round is a .32ACP or .380ACP. I'd be aiming for the face anyway


You have already enumerated the advantages of the P32.
You have made zero points in favor of the P3AT.
You have stated that the diiference in caliber is inconsequential.

I cannot see where there is any rooom for discussion. You have yourself convinced.

The purpose of this post, was...what?

pocketgun
October 23, 2006, 04:38 AM
All it is a faster burning powder, NO MAGIC

They seemed to have dropped the "+P" designation about the same time they joined SAAMI. Pretty hypocritical to be part of a industry standards organization that doesn't recognize a +P standard for .380ACP but sell it anyway. IMO, the story they told you was a bunch of BS, it was never over the standard and the "+P" designation was for marketing purposes to begin with.

Come to think of it, I know it was never over pressure: the head of CorBon (Mr. Peter Pi) once explained it on one of the forums that +P sometimes was just used by them to designate "hotter than normal", but not over pressure.

40jjb
October 26, 2006, 02:14 PM
Thanks for the info, i learned something today, It was just a lot of promotional stunt from Cor Bon, It still performed better than before. Thanks Pocketgun its helpfull.:scrutiny:

pocketgun
October 26, 2006, 05:23 PM
It is still a good choice IMO, especially in the P-32.

Anna's Dad
October 26, 2006, 06:33 PM
Many people say that the .380 is the minimum self-defense caliber. I think that a quality .32 round is pretty comparable to a .380 in efficacy.

I have read many more posts indicating reliability issues with the P3AT that aren't there with the P32. There are just as many, however, that say the P3ATs (especially newer ones) are very reliable.

Both are small guns and I wouldn't say either is fun to shoot--the .32 does has less bite than the .380. I know, they're not designed to be fun, but you're more likely to practice with a gun that doesn't make you wince in pain every time you pull the trigger.

Another reason I chose the .32 was because I had other .32 guns but no .380s. If I had no .32s prior to the purchase of my Kel-Tec, I would probably have given the P3AT a try first.

40jjb
November 14, 2006, 12:31 AM
I am back with new info, the speer 380 acp performs as good and equal to 32 acp, Cor bon, in penetration and expansion.Now the diferance the 380 acp expanded to a little over 45 acp , the speer 45 acp and the speer 380 expanded to the same diameter almost 50 cal.

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