[Dionysusigma]

While looking around at different rifles earlier today, I was in a really pessimistic mood. For every one I looked at or held, all I could do was think of flaws that each had. M1 carbines aren't powerful enough. AKs are too short. I hate direct gas impingement, so AR-15s are out. FALs are uncomfortable. And so on, and so forth. :rolleyes:

"So," thought my other, less whiny brain hemisphere, "what do you want in a rifle?"

Upon arriving home, I began to make a list of everything, everything, I want in an autoloader. Took me a little while, but I finally go it all out on Notepad... variants, a couple different chamberings, and so on. I was pleased with the resulting list (which I'll post later), and wondered why nobody had made one yet. :confused:

So, what would you want? A completely different design? A more refined version of a rifle in existance? What caliber (is it even a NATO caliber)? What materials? An MP5 in .357 Sig? An M1A in .45-70? What about combining the loading design of the G11 with the gas system of the AK? What about an accurized AR-180B?

"So whatcha, whatcha, whatcha want?" -Beastie Boys :)

[thefitzvh]

I want an AR in 7.62x39, with the (I think it's HK) gas system. I want rails for accessories, flip up rear sight, and normal capacity mags. I also want it to be cheap :-D

[BryanP]

I want one that shoots winning lotto tickets out the barrel, intact.

Hey, I can dream can't I?

[Chipperman]

I want an HK91 with a charging handle on the right side.

[shermacman]

I want what I got: US Rifle, Caliber .30, M-1
Fast reload, beyond dependable, power to reach out and touch some one at a distance; or, up close, shoot right through the bad guy's cover.

Having said that, my Remington 870 12 gauge shot gun is my home defense gun.

[Black Snowman]

Fortunately the configuration I want is possible. I'm not likely to be in a main battle or assault. My rifle would be for punching paper and perhaps varmints. Possibly taking a deer, but not real likely.

I have no problem with the direct gas system but I'm not even sure if the upper I want uses it. Olympic Arms .243 WSSM upper, DPMS stainles steel lower, tuned standard trigger, JP Rifles thumbhole stock, and a very very nice optic for it.

However, my budget will problably result in me just getting a complete PCR-8 Mag or the upper and a DPMS lower. At least for the forseeable future. Would make the rifle lighter and handier too, but less stable. Would be a good option for hauling it into the bush where as the heavy lower would be better on the bench.

[Feanaro]

I want a fast shooting, light recoiling, powerful, high capacity, reliable, easy to clean and strip, tough, low weight, and ergonomic rifle. With a bayonet, grenade launcher, buttstock cleaning kit compartment, bolt hold open, excellent peep sights, easy attach/detach optics, good cheek weld for previously mentioned sights and optics, the operating handle on the right(left :)) side, a flapper type magazine release, sturdy aluminum magazines, bipod, and carrying handle. And for less then $500.

You didn't say it had to be a realistic list. :D What I have, and what suits me for now, is my CETME dressed up as a G3.

[cracked butt]

M1 without the problem or worry about a weak gas system, so I can pick any factory loads off the shelp at the local sport mart and shoot with confidence.

[Bigdog57]

My wants:
1) Wood and steel contruction.
2) No direct-impingement gas system (or no gas system at all!).
3) 7.62X51/.308 caliber.
4) At least 20 round capacity.
5) Iron sights useable with scope installed.
6) Reasonable accuracy at a good distance.
7) High reliablility.
8) Easy stripping for cleaning, with no tools needed other than cartridge.

I got it, to my satisfaction - my CETME! :)

[target4fun]

I have a few that I own honestly any one of them would be good, just depends on what you like and what you wanna do with it

M1a scout with aimpoint 2x 2moa dot perfect rifle for everything out to about 500-600 yards, this set up was pricey though

Not a big fan of ar's if you want to do extreme accuracy and dont care about combat conditions or being able to take down anything weighing over 75 game then the ar-15 is for you, The ar is very accurate and a good target semi auto rifle which most of the competitors are winning with, but whats good on paper isnt good for war in my opinion.

If your looking for economics all around .308 battle rifle and dont wanna spend a bunch of money the Cetme is a great bargan, for 300 bucks you can have a .308, semi auto rifle that is fairly accurate i hear around 2-3moa which is very good deal for one of these I would advise spending the extra 50 bucks and get the stainless steel reciever, this will be a bit heavyier but much stronger durable.

My opinions on AK's (in semi) arent very high because that gun was designed for being a full auto weapon basicly putting out alot of lead in a hurry, i think its not a good semi auto rifle although i do like the sks's there fun guns to shoot, the sks's are generally more accurate than the ak's making it a great gun, then again if you had a ak in full auto then you have a excellent rifle because thats what it is designed to be but then again there isnt many full auto aks you can buy.

[NMshooter]

I suspect folks would complain less if they were paying the same unit price that governments pay. Be a heck of a group buy, though. :p

For the right price most folks are willing to overlook all sorts of things. Personally, I want whatever I can get ammunition, magazines, and spare parts for. If our issue rifle was the AK-74 I would own one. Not because I particularly want one, but because I would have a greater assurance that I could get ammunition, magazines, and spare parts.

I could live with most rifles so long as I have those three things.

I believe the Swiss keep sufficient quantities of all that for the expected life of the rifle, cached in all those bunkers they have. (The government, not the citizenry.)

[mustanger98]

I want what I got: US Rifle, Caliber .30, M-1
Fast reload, beyond dependable, power to reach out and touch some one at a distance; or, up close, shoot right through the bad guy's cover.

Yeah, what he said. :D Plus, I know what handloads I can run in it to hunt. :D

Well, I haven't heard anybody say they wanted belt fed Winchester .30-30's, fully automatic Ruger #1's, gold plated, day before yesterday and cheaper than WalMart yet.

[P95Carry]

I have mine! And as for what I look for? Well, reliability, adequate (not total MOA) accuracy - NATO (well, ''ex'' NATO) caliber - 7.62x51, comfortable to shoot, reasonable mag capacity (20) ... and relatively maintainance free. One or two guys (RevDisk, Norton) have liked this gun quite a lot.

I love it!! . FAL!! ......... to me the archetypal MBR.


http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/fal-s.jpg

[Archie]

I prefer the M14 as a general battle rifle. It does about everything I want. If I were to modify it, I'd make it a fixed 10 round magazine and feed it with stripper clips. The shorter magazine would be less likely to snag, and ammo on stripper clips is lighter than ammo in magazines. And I don't need the full auto function.

For a short rifle, I'd like something about the size and shape of an M1 Carbine, but in 7.62x39 or possibly 9mm Winchester Magnum; maybe 100mm. If the accuracy could be better than a standard M1 Carbine, that would be nice, too.

Some sort of tubular magazine would be nice to avoid snagging and make corners easier. Stick magazines are capacious and easy to change, but they get in the way.

[NMshooter]

100mm? Sign me up! :neener:

Sorry, couldn't resist! :D

[RevDisk]

P95 is evil for taunting me with that FAL.

I want a "assault rifle" that does everything the VPC says it does. :evil:

[wasrjoe]

I want something with an interchangeable upper (including the mag well) so that I can choose the appropriate chambering for the environment I am in. Good ergos, charging handle on the left side. Polymers where applicable to make it lighter, but I do not want to forsake reliability or ruggedness. If I'm not allowed to do multiple uppers, just substitute my main upper below for what my rifle would be like. :p

My main upper choice would probably be something fairly short, chambered in .308 or thereabouts... maybe even one of those 6.5 or 6.8 cartridges... just something with good penetration, a flat trajectory, and adequate recoil controllability on semi-auto. I would want reasonable accuracy (2.5 MOA or less) as well. 20-30 round magazine capacity. Full auto capability.

I'm sure there are other details I left out, but that's enough for now.

[Zak Smith]

Any properly built M4/M16/AR15, an unlimited supply of 75-77gr ammo, and one full day a week to practice.

-z

[goon]

I like the AK system but it could use a little improvement.
I prefer the 7.62x51mm round but I could live with 7.62x54 too. The '39 is cool for cheap shooting and up close work but isn't much good for me past 200 yards. Better sights would make a difference but with the '51 or '54 in a longer barrel the sight radius should be long enough to make reliable hits at 400 or more yards if you can see what you are shooting at.
I don't like the direct impingement of the AR and they are more finicky.
To me, the FAL seems pretty cool but I don't like the adjustable gas system. I think they would have been better off to come up with something that worked, add half again as much to make it dead reliable, and let it go with that. The SKS works about the same way as a FAL without adjustable gas so the FAL could have too.
This is where the AK shines over the FAL IMO. Every AK I have ever shot worked as it should have. You could lock and load and fire away with complete confidence that the damn thing is going to keep on firing until you find yourself in need of another loaded magazine.
My experience with the FAL tells me that it isn't that simple. It might work, maybe even as well as the AK.
But it might not...

The AK just plain works.

Having said that, the last rifle I would ever part with would be my Finn M-39.
It lacks firepower. It fires a rimmed round that can cause problems in a box style magazine (rimlock). It only holds five rounds but that may be limited to four if you don't use the safety (I don't because it is a PITA). It is slower to fire and really slow to reload (good strippers can be hard to come by so you may be loading one at a time). The sights are rugged but a little broad compared to those of the Enfield and some other bolt action battle rifles.
With all its faults, that damn thing will shoot. Cold barrel, hot barrel - doesn't matter. It will continue to break clay pigeons at 200 yards as fast as I can aim, fire, reload... rinse, lather, repeat.
It has about 10 moving parts and only a couple of springs so there isn't much to wear out. It fits my shoulder perfectly and stays on target as though it is programmed to seek the target with the sights. The recoil is mild so I can shoot it for hours with no discomfort. The gun is tough, simple, and steeped in history. It was built by men who knew that someone's life would depend on it and you can tell that when you handle it.
Even with its faults, it is perfect for me.

So really, I guess they all have faults.
It just has to be worth it to you to work through them. :)

[Tony Williams]

I summarised the requirements for an 'ideal' assault rifle for military use in 'Assault Rifle: the Development of the Modern Military Rifle and its Ammunition' (co-authored with Max Popenker) as follows:

"From all of the above it is possible to draw up a specification for the characteristics of an 'ideal' rifle, common to all calibres and even regardless of whether the preferred type has a traditional or bullpup layout, as follows:

1. Maximum reliability, even under the most adverse conditions. This also includes durability; tolerance of the kind of rough treatment common in warfare. Reliable functioning requires an action which is protected as far as possible from the ingress of dirt, and designed to expel any dirt which does get in. There should be a surplus of power available to drive the action and positive extraction, which implies a piston-type gas operation (preferably with an adjustable valve). Cleaning equipment should be provided in a compartment somewhere on the rifle.

2. Maximum ease of use for both right and left-handed users (few weapons score well at this). All controls should be ambidextrous, and all fall readily to hand and be operated in an instinctive way. It is common to combine the safety catch with the single shot/automatic fire selector, but this is arguably not ideal; a safety catch needs to be instantly and silently flipped on and off without moving the hand from the firing position and is best given just that function to do. (It could perhaps be a spring-loaded flap located within the trigger guard which has to be pushed to one side before the trigger can be pulled; it is then unnecessary to have to remember to switch it on and off.) The fire selector should be different, perhaps the ideal being the Steyr AUG's trigger control; normal pull for single shots, heavy pull for automatic fire; again, no switches to remember. The magazine release catch needs to be convenient to use by the hand grasping the magazine, but must not be easily hit by accident. The magazine should also be easy to locate in the magazine well, and click into place with a simple vertical push, without needing to be rocked from side-to-side or front-to-back.

3. Compactness for use in vehicles and in street-fighting, combined with a long enough barrel to provide the ballistics required to retain maximum effectiveness out to at least 300 metres. This implies either a bullpup layout or a folding/telescoping stock. In the latter case, care needs to be taken to ensure that the stock is quickly and easily extended, but is comfortable to use and remains rigid despite much use and abuse.

4. A flexible sight mounting system, which can accept a standard telescopic sight or night sights, but also has simple iron sights for emergencies. The ability to fit a range of accessories such as grenade launchers, torches, laser pointers etc is also important.

5. Other issues include:
a. a magazine hold-open device, which holds the bolt back when the last shot has been fired. This would seem obvious, but an astonishing number of weapons do not have it; the German G3, HK rifles generally, SIG and the original FAMAS are among the culprits (the later FAMAS has it). Their users only discover that the magazine is empty when they pull the trigger and nothing happens.
b. a trigger pull light and crisp enough to permit accurate firing on semi-automatic (unimportant in fully automatic fire, which should be for short-range emergencies only; in most circumstances, a trained rifleman will score more hits with rapid semi-automatic fire).
c. a charging handle (accessible to both hands, of course) which can also be used to force home a reluctant cartridge, or to kick a stuck case out of the chamber.
d. a trigger guard which permits the use of mittened hands; either one which can be pushed out of the way, or a full-hand guard like the Steyr AUG and the latest FAMAS.
e. a forward handguard shielded from heat build-up.

There is another important factor which is difficult to describe objectively, and that is the general handling of the weapon. The pistol grip and hand guard should be well shaped to provide a good grip, and the stock should provide a comfortable cheek rest. The gun should feel well-balanced, and come up to the aim naturally. The problem is that people differ in their views on this and, in particular, proponents of traditional rifles dislike bullpups, and vice versa. Finally, and bearing in mind that it is increasingly common to fit accessories of various types thereby adding noticeably to the weight, the weight of the basic rifle should be kept as low as is compatible with durability."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[P95Carry]

Good input Tony - many useful criteria tho some (naturally) might not be totally agreed upon .. it is after all a broad subject and laden with opinion!! which implies a piston-type gas operation (preferably with an adjustable valve). That I endorse fully ... comments earlier were against this but I like that extra ''buffer'' against the time crud slows things down, perhaps!

This why I favor the FAL - it's shape and ergo's are not for all but, IMO it can be made to keep on performing even when things get rough. I am not a fan of bullpups despite their ''totability'' factor. Hold-open is another good point.

Maybe the biggest problem you refer too is the relative lack of ambi ''friendliness'' ... for most part - right handed is good!!

Haven't seen you in a while - good to see you drop by.

[bratch]

Bolt hold open.

That is the number 1 thing I dislike about my Cetme. Followed second by the location of the charging handle but that one is improving.

[spartacus2002]

$250 all-USGI M1As

[jacketch]

I summarised the requirements for an 'ideal' assault rifle for military use in 'Assault Rifle
The only thing I would add would be that it come in a round that can penetrate many common types of cover.

[Tony Williams]

Just remembered - the text I pasted in was from a draft, in the final version I added another requirement:

"A design which enables the gun to be quickly and easily field-stripped for cleaning, without the risk of losing small parts or assembling them in the wrong order."

TW

[DMK]

I'd like a FAL, with a folding stock, chrome lined barrel, AR "A2" sights with the rear sight fixed solidly to the upper reciever, chambered in 7.62x39 with AK mags, an AR pistol grip and made of lightweight materials like an AR so it's no more than 7-8 lbs.

2nd (and more realistic)choice would be a 20" AR with a 5.56 chamber, 1/7 twist, lightweight chrome lined A1 profile barrel, detachable carry handle with A2 sights, RRA NM trigger, the shorter M16A1 or a Cav Arms C1 stock, and a lifetime supply of Black Hills 77gr HPBT match ammo loaded in brand new teflon coated aluminum USGI mags.

Even out of the box, my Imbel FAL is a great rifle. It's extremly reliable, has a chrome lined barrel, and is easy to strip and clean. It's just kind of heavy and having the front and rear sights fixed to seperate halves of the rifle doesn't help to improve accuracy.

[TheLastBoyScout]

A bushmaster 7.62NATO AR that has ALL the positive attributes of their AR15s...

-Costs the same (or less)
-Easy to find, cheap spare parts
-dead nuts accurate
-completely reliable

[artherd]

I want a select-fire, belt fed 5.56 AR with 100 round cloth bags, firing 75 or 77gr OTM. I want it to weigh less than a regular AR :)


I'd settle for just a select-fire 10" M4, 14.5" M4 with ACOG, and 20" KAC SR-25 with Us Optics scope.

[itgoesboom]

What I would want:

- 7.62 nato
- Reliable
- Accurate <2MOA

Ergonomics would be nice too, and good sights are a plus, but that is all I would really want.

I.G.B.

[sm]

Ping :)

[fistful]

I want an M1A Scout Squad and I want you to pay for it.

Thanks for asking. :)

[glazer1972]

Fal

[Dionysusigma]

This is mine. :)

General Description:
- AK (possibly in bullpup config.)
- Utilizes AR mags, chambered in 5.56x45 NATO/ .223 Rem
- Smaller gas tube and piston assembly to coincide with the 5.56
- Gas block farther down the barrel than a standard AK, much like an AR-15
- Safety/selector switch repositioned/reworked, reminiscent of an M14 (safety built into trigger, selector switch somewhere else), or rather like a Galil
- Safe/ semi/ three round burst
- Flat, 90-degree gas block and chamber (think FAL, BAR)
- Rail running along the top much like an UltiMak, but going from where rear sight is located on an AK to the top of the gas block
- Flip-up front sight, reminiscent of M1/M14/M-16, permanently mounted on top of gas block
- Flip-up rear sight (patterned off the M16A2) permanently mounted at other end of rail
- 4x scope (easily removed), most likely an ACOG
- 20" heavy barrel, fluted, polygonal rifling, threaded for muzzle brake/flash suppressor or sound suppressor
- Chrome-lined bore and internal mechanisms
- Machined alloy receiver, fiberglass (not plastic) furniture with heat shields
- Repair/field kit inside pistol grip and/or stock

Variations:
- .308, takes G3 mags, 10x scope, bipod, 26" barrel, semi only
- 10" barrel, NVG4 scope with backup tritium ghost ring sights, detachable light and laser, integrally suppressed


In other words, a more developed AK... what rifle currently in existance comes close to these specs? AR-180B? Bushmaster M17s?

British L85A1? :uhoh: :barf:

[Marcus]

I`d start with this DSA Arms SA-58 OSW equipped like this one.
http://www.dsarms.com/images/sa58osw.gif
Swap in an 16" barrel for a little better ballistics,Ergo grip and chamber it in .243 Win. (plenty of punch but less recoil especially in rock-n-roll mode ;) ). Done. :D Marcus

[P95Carry]

I think I could find a definite ''lust'' factor for one of those Marcus! :p

[Tony Williams]

In other words, a more developed AK... what rifle currently in existance comes close to these specs? AR-180B? Bushmaster M17s?

Probably the Vektor CR-21. This was a bullpup version of the South African R4, which was developed from the Galil, which can trace its ancestry back (via Finland) to the AK-47. It was in 5.56mm calibre, and featured one of the sexiest-looking plastic bodies I've ever seen. Unfortunately it failed to attract any orders so Vektor stopped offering it a couple of years ago.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)