[Curare]

It never fails to amaze me when I go to my local range.

A middle age man with a $2000 Wilson missing a large target from 30 feet.

Two young LEOs with their duty belts on with 18" slow fire groups from 15ft (I have difficulty seeing the target several rows down because it is so close.) I must say, however, that their gun safety was very impressive. After a break, they speak expertly about the latest handguns with the salesman.

A 30 something year-old guy with 2 buds, trying out his new Ruger .45. "This gun is all over the magazines--they love it". Well, his bullets were all over the target. I looked at that gun with level A lawyer engraving all over it and congratulated him on his purchase.

People shooting 6" aimed slow fire groups at 25yds with a scoped rifle.

People immensly entertained by trying to tear out the target's head from 20 ft. away while striking the target carrier with every 5th shoot.

I imagine people like this make up a huge percentage of people on shooting forums. I'm sure they speak with great certainty as they debate the latest cartridge, handgun or tactical technique, yet they can't do something as simple as hit a stationary target in ideal conditions. It's the archer, not the arrow.

[12-34hom]

Those people that you speak about regardless of their ability might just be having FUN!

Just as some speak about their uber tactical ability with their chosen firearm berating others cause they don't measure up to someone elses ability with a firearm.

Have a Merry Christmas.

12-34hom.

[El Tejon]

Yeah, so? They are shooting and for that we should be thankful.

We can clean up the technique later. :D

[The Rabbi]

And the point of this is?

Great shooting ability does not equal anything other than great shooting ability. A large body of knowledge about guns is not invalidated by poor shooting nor vice versa. More, the ability to shoot well does not always translate into the ability to teach others to do so.
The people at the range are all buying firearms related stuff, joining the NRA, etc and helping support and promote what we value. Anyone have a problem with that?

[RavenVT100]

They're practicing aren't they?

[Intune]

I shouldn't have bought my Beretta Silver Pigeon II since I can't shoot clays worth a hoot.

My Ruger #1 shoots beneath my ability as a rifleman. I shant take it to the range again unless it transforms into a Dakota model 10.

My Sig 220 is so inaccurate that I won't even take it to the range.

I never go to the range anymore. My abilities and/or weapons will not allow me to.
:rolleyes: :eek:
Merry Christmas no matter what you shoot or how well you do it!
:cool:

[Curare]

Any of you gents deny that the fundamentals of technique are more important than equipment? The focus of too many shooters is the latest and greatest gear--not time proven shooting fundamentals. It's clearly evident at the range.

New shooters would be better served by an hour spent on learning handgun grip, sights, and trigger control, than many hours with a Wilson catalog, a gun magazine, or an internet forum debating the benefits of a cartridge they cannot even hit the target with.

:rolleyes:

[Rexrider]

A middle age man with a $2000 Wilson missing a large target from 30 feet.
Maybe it was his first 1911 and was learning how to shoot it.

Two young LEOs with their duty belts on with 18" slow fire groups from 15ft (I have difficulty seeing the target several rows down because it is so close.) I must say, however, that their gun safety was very impressive. After a break, they speak expertly about the latest handguns with the salesman.
I would be glad to see young LEO's at the range. So many people complain LEO's have less trigger time than the average hobby shooter. Practicing within 15 ft is a good thing. Three inch groups at 25 yds are a great but mean little if you have to defend yourself.

A 30 something year-old guy with 2 buds, trying out his new Ruger .45. "This gun is all over the magazines--they love it". Well, his bullets were all over the target. I looked at that gun with level A lawyer engraving all over it and congratulated him on his purchase.
Once again, most people need time to learn a new firearm. At least the owner was not sitting at home bragging about how great a shot he was. He actually got out and tried it


People shooting 6" aimed slow fire groups at 25yds with a scoped rifle.
Maybe the scope needed to be sighted in. I would start at 25 yrds. Maybe it was a new rifle and scope. Who knows. They still get credit for being there.

People immensly entertained by trying to tear out the target's head from 20 ft. away while striking the target carrier with every 5th shoot.
People practice head shots. Everyone has hit the carrier at some point. It happens. If it was really bad than it would be up to the range master handle.

No disrespect intended, but how was your shooting while keeping track of everyone else? All I watch for at the range is that everyone knows when the range goes cold and no one is acting stupid. That’s it. Their targets are their business, not mine.

All that matters is they were out there shooting. As long as they were safe about it then kudos to them.

[TheFederalistWeasel]

I always thought someone who was an Arm Chair Commando is someone who was full of them selves, quick to jump to conclusions about how he would do it, ran around the forums referring to himself as an “Operator” and swore to God that every Spec Ops guy “over there” was carrying some experimental Glock.

Owned more “tactical” gear than a Team of Navy SEALS, ran around with his buddies on the weekend in his neighbors woods pretending to lay the way for some infantry attack on a remote compound located in Leaveusthehellalone Uganda.

Oh yeah…

Just a side note about the cops, most gunfights involving LE take place under the rules of 3.

Less than 3 yards
Less than 3 rounds
Less than 3 seconds

[lycanthrope]

Gear matters too. When I bought my STI Edge, I went up almost 2 classes within a month over a stock 1911.

I prefer my guns to shoot better than I can. That way I don't ever settle for "good enough".

I once went through a stage where I dry fired 30 min every night and ran 1000 rounds through my 1911 on a weekly basis on practicing drills. Wonderful. That does not, however, give me the right to say my way is the only way to shoot and my goals the only application.

[2nd Amendment]

Interesting reactions to the initial post. So, none of you know these people? My personal aquaintances all fall into two catgories: A small number like myself who are embarrassed not try to stick most rnds in one ragged hole, assuming the firearm is capable, and Everybody Else. Everybody Else being those whose definition of practice is "Hey, I hit the paper, didn't I?"

I don't know if they can't shoot, won't practice, never stick with the same gun long enough or what. I just know they always shoot like crap and it never seems to get better. I'm happy they are owners. I am happy they are shooters. But jeez...Not everybody can be that bad and that means many of them just don't care. THAT bothers me. And I believe it was the point of the thread...

[Rexrider]

Any of you gents deny that the fundamentals of technique are more important than equipment? The focus of too many shooters is the latest and greatest gear--not time proven shooting fundamentals. It's clearly evident at the range.

Of course they are. But maybe that is what those people were trying to do. You have to start somewhere. Even if it is with the latest greatest gear.

You don't know the whole story on those people. You don't know how long they have been shooting or shooting those paticular firearms. You don't know if they brag about what they do or if they know they need to practice.

You just seem upset because a guy with a $2000 pistol missed the his target. Would you have felt better about it if it was a $300 Rock Island?

I have more respect for the person who shoots 6" groups at the range than I do for the person sitting at home bragging about his 2" group that no one ever sees.

Anyway, don't be upset with the people at the range. If you have to be upset, direct it to those who never go out and shoot.

[jefnvk]

I don't like people that think precision shooting is an absolute must. One thing I found out about my range is that you have to be a Bar 5 Bullseye shooter to bring anything larger than a .22 in there :confused: Me, not being bullseye shooter, am having a hard time with that.

Those people are going out, having some fun and practicing. For that, they should be commended. To jump on them because they have a good gun and don't shoot as good as you, is wrong.

Now, if they were trying to tell others how to improve their groups...

[psyopspec]

I'm confused --- who's the arm chair commando?

[Atticus]

I agree that people should learn to be proficient with their weapon....and practice DOES make perfect....but I also think that shooting ragged little holes gets boring real fast. I'm always amused by the disapproving glances of the anal retentive types when I'm unloading a full mag into COM groups at 15'. I'm curious about how they would perform in a real life scenerio when circumstances are out of their control and everything is going wrong.

[GEM]

Where did the term 'operator' come from? For most of my life, an operator was the person who had a crappy job for the phone company.

I am taking my arm chair to the next match. I get tired watching the 'operators' shoot.

[sm]

I am always harping about fit .

-Try as many armchairs as can before buying.

- LOA / LOR( Length of Arm/ Length of Rest) is an important component of fit.

-Padded rests vs. Non-Padded [ use the search function, heated debate].

-High-back, Low back, metal , wood, fabric, leather, "genuine imitation vinyl" , ...these too have been debated to death - again do a search.

-Many good deals can be found on "used" armchairs. Doesn't mean the former user no longer needs an armchair. Usually means he found one in Carbon Fiber , with light rails with the abilty to add ceramic plates to top a 88 magnum.

:)

[dfaugh]

My buddy and I were experimenting with some cast bullets loads for our (8x57) Mausers. Dismal failure, only 50% hits ON THE 24" BACKER BOARD. :mad: AT 25 YARDS. :eek: There's usually a few guys there, shoot the same time every week, we were SHOWING them the dismal results. Kept us all amused that day! :D

[BryanP]

Some of us still enjoy indulging hobbies at which we suck.

I am a mediocre shot at best, I freely admit this. I still enjoy going to the range and practicing. I keep trying to improve, but if my handgun groups look more like shotgun groups ... well, that just gives me an excuse to go through a few more boxes of ammo trying to improve.

If watching other people being lousy shots bothers you so much, concentrate on your own target. Or offer to show them proper technique.

[Rosstradamus]

12-34hom, tossing a football around with the kids is fun. Range time is preparation for a life-and-death situation. Excellence is all that matters. How would you like it if doctors and nurses turned their CPR certification class into a grab-ass session instead of buckling down and paying attention? Would you blow that off and quip "Well, they're having fun"?

El Tejon, technique doesn't come later. Technique comes first. That is, unless you just don't care. Those people mentioned above sound like some of the people I used to play golf with. After 20+ years they still can't break 100. Why? Because they just don't care. Well, that doesn't really matter too much in the grand scheme of things because no one is going to kill you and your family if you can't carry the water. It's a different story when you're talking firearm proficiency.

Rexrider, everyone and everything can't be brand new. Your argument stretches credulity.

[The Rabbi]

12-34hom, tossing a football around with the kids is fun. Range time is preparation for a life-and-death situation.

Now THAT is an arm-chair commando statement! :eek:

[Hazwaste]

"I imagine people like this make up a huge percentage of people on shooting forums. I'm sure they speak with great certainty as they debate the latest cartridge, handgun or tactical technique, yet they can't do something as simple as hit a stationary target in ideal conditions."

Based upon the rest of your post, it sounds like someone is having a case of "projection". :rolleyes:

[Bruce H]

Sounds more like somebody couldn't even hit the backstop and is ragging everyone else for not putting them all in the ten ring. :evil:

[SpaceCowboy]

What difference does it make to you how other people are shooting(as long as everyone shoots in the same direction). I am surprised that you are so irritated by this. In my experience, I sometimes get bored shooting those little groups or maybe I don't feel like holding my pistol while practicing a perfect weaver stance-- simply put, some days I just like to sling a bunch of lead down range. Does this make me an armchair commando(I do own a lot of highspeed low drag gear and sometimes I forget that I am not in a John Woo film being chased by ninjas and blackhawk helicopters) but does my lead slinging make me any less than you or anyone else? Sound like you wish you had a $2K willson that you could shoot poorly with.

Owned more “tactical” gear than a Team of Navy SEALS, ran around with his buddies on the weekend in his neighbors woods pretending to lay the way for some infantry attack on a remote compound located in Leaveusthehellalone Uganda.

--Sorry, we'll stay out of the woods from now on. :(

[1911Ron]

I'll jump in here and say my 15yr old son can out shoot me when he pays attention,when he doesn't his groups go out the window.He some times just wants to have fun and blast away oh well. I have seen people at the range who have trouble keeping all of their rounds on target and at the breaks i go over and talk to them and find out whats going on and if wanted i give some advice or tips as needed or wanted. I am far from the best shot, but have been able to help and in the process made some friends :D

[Preacherman]

Well, I'm generally considered a good shot, and I won the class "shoot-offs" in both LFI-2 and LFI-3 with multiple weapons.

That being said, due to a back injury, surgery, and more surgery still to come, I haven't fired a centerfire weapon since February, as my doctor won't allow it - he claims that recoil is transmitted to the spine, which would not be a Good Thing for me at the moment. At present, it looks like if all goes well, I may be able to start "proper" shooting again by mid-2005. All I can practice with at the moment (for short periods, because standing for prolonged periods is very painful) is rimfire.

So, I guess my first few sessions at the range will be pretty sucky... if I get pie-plate-size groups for a while, I suppose I'll be doing well! However, it won't embarrass me to try.

[Rexrider]

Rexrider, everyone and everything can't be brand new. Your argument stretches credulity.

Rosstradamus,
Actually, it was not an argument. I was pointing out that Curare did not know what kind of shooters these people are, how much experience they have, or how familure they were with the equipment they were using. He was simply judging them on the status of their targets.

Technique comes first. That is, unless you just don't care.
They cared enough to go to the range and work on it.

12-34hom, tossing a football around with the kids is fun. Range time is preparation for a life-and-death situation. Excellence is all that matters. How would you like it if doctors and nurses turned their CPR certification class into a grab-ass session instead of buckling down and paying attention? Would you blow that off and quip "Well, they're having fun"?

I think you just wiped out your own credibility with that statement. LEOs and Military train for life and death situations. Believe it or not...most people do go the range to have fun. I think it is safe to say we all try to improve our shooting techniques, but we also try to have fun doing it.

Excellence is relative. What defines a good marksman? Someone who can shoot sub 3" groups at 25 yds with a handgun off-hand or draw that handgun and hit COM on 5 targets at 7 yrds in under 3 seconds?

Who is better? The person hitting the bullseye at 500 yrds with a tricked out rifle and scope or the hunter with his plain old Remington dropping a dear in its tracks at 200 yrds?

Actually the worse thing here is I just let myself get sucked into an argument over people who actually went shooting. Those poor people. I guess someone should tell them to give up and sell off their stuff. Simply because they were not good enough.

[Valkman]

Hey Preacherman, I'll shoot with ya. I guess I look like a tactical commando shooting my AR at 25 to 50 yards. Of course it's because my bad feet won't let me shoot at 200 - 300 yards, but it's nice to know how people interpret it. Thankfully at out range we get a big bay to ourselves! :)

[Pilgrim]

It is my experience these folks want to shoot better, but just don't know how. Their first teacher was incompetent, and as a result did not know how to correct the common pitfalls that lead to terrible marksmanship. In time, these folks learn to accept their terrible marksmanship, thinking that some people are shooters and others aren't. They unfortunately, fit in the latter category.

If you are a good shooter and don't come across as a "grand exalted poohbah" of the range, and you seem friendly and non-judgmental, they may open up to you and ask you what they are doing wrong. This is where you will find out if you know how to teach.

A good shooter is not necessarily a good teacher, though it helps establish your credibility. A good teacher is one who knows the common mistakes that screw up marksmanship, and knows how to spot them. Finally, a good teacher knows simple drills and exercises for the student to try that will guarantee success.

Success is measured in small steps. If I have a shooter who is all over the paper at ten yards, I count it a success if I can get their groups down to dinner plate size in a short period of time.

A good part of successful teaching is knowing when to quit. I have taught several of my grandkids to shoot. I always watch for signs of fatigue and make sure we quit right after they have shot a target they are proud to take home to show to their mom and dad.

The worst thing you can do is have one of your "students" go home thinking, 'I can't do this.' Your challenge as an instructor is to put in your student's mind the mindset, "I can do this," and feed that belief with minor successes and positive feedback.

It can be done. You can do it.

Pilgrim

[Strings]

This just abso-frelling-lutely blows my mind!

Most here seem to follow the concept of "to each their own", but someone has to rag about how others think of their range time?!?!? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

If you think of your range time as "training for when I need my shooting skills to save my life", rock on! I do the same sometimes...

If you think of range time as "let's spend an afternoon seeing how fast we can shoot and miss", have at it! I do the same sometimes...

If you feel the need to deride either camp, please get a life (we're not actually piddling in your Post Toasties)... :rolleyes:

[Lonestar.45]

Everyone has to start somewhere. Many don't have the experience and skills that others do.

That said, damn, it is hard not to chuckle when I see some armchair commando with more money than sense, come in with a high-dollar pistol and can't hit the broad side of a barn, while I'm plugging away with my no frills cheapo Springfield Armory G.I. and shooting circles around him. You'd think that anyone who spends 2 grand on a pistol (one that is supposedly guaranteed for 1" or less groups) would be able to hit the TARGET. Most newbies don't go around blowing that kind of money on a first pistol, but to each his own I guess.

[Sleeping Dog]

Sometimes, especially when the guy next to me is shooting a gun with ports or muzzle break, I get out the little Mosin Nagant M44. It doesn't shoot all that great, especially aimed with ancient eyes, but it is loud as heck and makes a huge fireball. Target, shmarget. Gotta love the light and sound show!

Regards.

[schizrade]

simply put, some days I just like to sling a bunch of lead down range.
Word! :rolleyes: That would be me all the time. But I hold good groups and keep everything in the black. I enjoy "realistic" shooting as I call it. :)

Sometimes, especially when the guy next to me is shooting a gun with ports or muzzle break, I get out the little Mosin Nagant M44. It doesn't shoot all that great, especially aimed with ancient eyes, but it is loud as heck and makes a huge fireball. Target, shmarget. Gotta love the light and sound show!

Hey that's the same thing I do! Especially with the bayonet out. Man that thing is fun. Shoots so-so, but the fireball and recoil make it sooooo fun!

Some of you need to lighten up. I get weird looks all the time when I go through 50 rounds in a 15 minute period by the "marksmen" types. They are always wondering out loud how much could I possibly hit with any accuracy at high rate of fire. Then they look through their scopes and shut up.



:neener: I say.

[webley455]

I am with GEM. Merry Christmas!!!!

[Kamicosmos]

Everyone is a Beginner at some point. I remember when it was an extreme challenge to just keep all the shots on the target at 10 yards. Now I get frustrated when I throw a couple outside the 9 ring on an 6 inch bull at 15 yards.

I've been shooting for a relatively short span of about 10 years and know enough about shooting and my skills at it to know that I have many many weaknesses.

What's that slogan? No matter how good you are, there is someone out there that's better?

A little humbleness goes along way...

[12-34hom]

Rosstradamus, each to his or her own. I truly enjoy the shooting sports and while at the range i like to have fun while doing so.

When i go for weapons qualifications for my department, its still fun - serious-but fun. Having "bragging rites" between qualifications is something all the officers from all the agencies in my county strive for. One of our deputies was once on the state pistol team [and shoots one of those danged revolvers] and whips up on everybody. I've come close to beating him.... ;) Ah well = theres always next time..

But needless to say its always good natured competition, regardless of the outcome.

Merry Christmas!

12-34hom.

[Maxinquaye]

I was once told that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all.

These people were obviously SPORT shooting. If a guy wants to blow $2K on a pistol and he's not a great shot, oh well. I feel the same way when I see a Porsche with an auto tranny...but I mind my own business.

[Curare]

I was taught the same thing as well. I was also taught how to avoid negligent discharges--thankfully I've remembered the later.

:evil:

[Shovelhead]

....And not everyone cruising down the highway in a Porsche can drive like Mario Andretti. ;)

[Phil Ca]

For many years police used Bullseye targets and then went to the combat style silouhette targets. some of the expert Bullsye target shooters were not so good on the combat targets. For years I trained my officers on the USSS man sized targets and getting used to the Bullseye targets is a PITA. Some ranges will not allow he man sized targets since it looks offensive to some people. :fire:

[borderguy]

When I first became an LEO I had to transition from a Glock to a DAO Beretta. So I was one of those LEO types that did slow shooting for a while. Like my instructor said. Get smooth. After you get smooth, then you can get fast.

As to the others at the range. Unless they are unsafe, let em do whatever they want. I'll say something if I think it would help. Like the guy who was teaching his girlfriend to shoot with a .41 Mag. I offered my 686 and wadcutters and she actually enjoyed shooting then.

As fir the Kimber, it may have been a gift and the shooters first time at the range. These gays I am far more inclined to encourage people to shoot rather than being critical of those participating.

[goon]

I have seen most of the above at the range and I was glad to see them there. I generally shoot a few rounds from any gun that anyone else has at the range and I let them shoot a mag or so through my AK, FAL, SIG, whatever. I have gotten to shoot quite a few guns this way.

Had I been there, I could have tried out a scoped deer rifle and maybe have helped an inexperienced shooter get his rifle on target. I could have tried out a Wilson and a Ruger and gotten an idea of how they feel and handle with live ammo. I could have showed up a couple of cops and then spent the rest of the afternoon BSing with them as we all got more much needed practice in with our handguns.
Why only look at the negative?

All kinds of people like to go to the range and I do whatever I can to aid them in that. I would never do anything to try to discourage a new, inexperienced, or out of practice shooter from putting some lead downrange.

[Tierhog]

Wow, shooters complaining about shooters. Sad, very sad. Think I will head out to the range and ....oh just forget it. What's the point anyway?

[trapshooter]

For those that are like Bryan P and Hunter Rose , look me up if you are ever in southern Missouri. I'll shoot with you guys anytime. And probably lose any sidebets.

I think there are different kinds of shooting. There is serious, skill-building range work, then there is just exercising the blaster. I don't mind a little ribbing, but I'm certain there are lots of folks out there on this board who can shoot rings around me. I'd hate to think that they wouldn't shoot with me, because how in the heck would I get better otherwise? You don't learn anything from people who are no better than you, or worse. You only learn from those who know more, or at least different. Like I said, ribbing is one thing, ridicule, on the other hand, is counter-productive.

[Maxinquaye]

"I was taught the same thing as well. I was also taught how to avoid negligent discharges--thankfully I've remembered the later."

Um, you mean the latter?

Nice to know you have the time to read my old posts. AD/ND = lesson you haven't learned yet. Hope you never have to, but it's not a reason to feel superior. Mostly just makes me look at you like I do new motorcycle riders who have never dropped their bike...and brag about it. :rolleyes:

[Wayne02]

I love it when the accuracy elite get all up on their high horse, especially when it comes with a dose of equipment envy.

Leave them alone, they are just enjoying the sport. You are obviously more worried about their accuracy then they are... yet they seem to be having fun. If you envy their equipment then that should be incentive to save up and buy your own. Then you could really shoot circles around them.....

Wayne

[Rexrider]

For those that are like Bryan P and Hunter Rose , look me up if you are ever in southern Missouri. I'll shoot with you guys anytime. And probably lose any sidebets.

What about me? Can't I go too? I promise I only want to have fun and I won't outshoot anybody. No, seriously...I probably won't :D

[Deavis]

Man, Curare, you shouldn't be ashamed of those people's shooting skill, you should be ashamed of yourself for not helping them out. I infer from your tone that you are a great shot, so why didin't you help them improve their technique?

Last time I was at a public range there was a guy there with his girl shooting his/her brand new Glock. He kept saying the sights were off and was trying to teach her to shoot. His mechanics weren't exactly Brian Enos style to say the least! I was friendly and offered to let her shoot a gun I had in exchange for shooting hers. I said I had never shot a G27 before and wanted to try it out (small white lie). So she shoots mine, I give her a little coaching to help out.

Then I get hers "Watch out it shoots way left" I'm told. First shot is a little bit right of the target I'm aiming at. He thinks I'm aiming at the bull, "little left, eh?" Second shot, I put one through the center of the 2" stick on spot at 15 yards. Great shot? HECK NO! However, after that I got a captive audience to discuss some of the finer points of marksmanship such as proper grip, sight picture, trigger control, and the surprise trigger break.

As a matter of fact, I still remember the man who "had never seen a Taurus revolver" that taught me to shoot that huge .357 Magnum revolver I borrowed from my Dad. Even showed me the ins and outs of reloading.

Help 'em out there Clint, we aren't all naturally talented.

[B36]

:rolleyes: Are you certain this was not a writers convention ;) ??

Agree with many others, at least they were shooting and doing so in a safe place.

[Bruce H]

How many here play call your shot? Calling a specific place then hitting it is a lot harder than center target X ring. Just because everything isn't in a tight little center group doesn't mean a whole lot. Never Assume because of what happens.

[craig]

when i first went to the range i couldn't really hit a thing. there were a couple of guys laughing their butts off at me. got me very ticked off. i was ready to leave and never come back but a couple of others came over and asked if i wanted some help. they gave said help and i was grateful. i'm getting better but the laughing boys almost turned me off to ever going to a range again. cut the guys who miss by a mile some slack. they might be learning too.

[Guy B. Meredith]

As a range safety officer I was dismayed by the number of people who are just into making noise and seem to have no sense of what they should be able to do. All too often they shoot up/destroy the range equipment and think that is the apex of firearms achievement.

At one point I became so annoyed with such a family group that I informed them that others would not consider shooting the ground in front of 25 yard targets as a good day's shooting. They could not believe that. Maybe they did. I don't think they ever came back.

I am always ready to help people learn, but sometimes they just don't want to understand there is more than macho noise making to the shooting sports.

[444]

I agree with you, at least as I understand the post.
I have lots of friends that are heavily involved in every aspect of gun ownership............................ except shooting.
And, yes, I find this amazing.
This, to me, is one of the most important things about competing. Every single one of my friends that I got to come out to a formal match were deeply shamed by their performance. It was a big wake up call for them. They didn't shoot enough to realize they wern't a good shooter. They had never challenged themselves to perform where every shot is counted and every shot was there for all to see.
Luckily, instead of being defensive about it and trying to argue and justify it, they started seriously training to become better and started competing on a regular basis to measure their progress.

[Standing Wolf]

I've noticed over the years lots of shooters don't shoot very well. I've come to the conclusion it's better to be a mediocre shot than no shot at all. I've always been a nut for accuracy, so I doubt I'll ever understand those who shoot for noise and recoil; then again, some of those folks probably look at my lawn and figure I'm a truly mediocre gardener.

[mmike87]

El Tejon - Amen to that. As long as they are safe and having a good time, it's a win for gun owners.

[Curare]

Thanks for the spelling correction "ND"--it's Christmas eve and I haven't had my $5 cup of Starbucks tonight. It's good to have secretary types around to correct spelling mistakes on forums. :D

[gc70]

Don't assume that every time you see someone shooting poorly that they just don't care. I never shoot the one-hole groups that some people do, but my groups were particularly bad on two recent trips to the range.

On the first trip, I decided to practice shooting with my weak hand and purposely banished my pistol to my left hand. I was at least able to hit the paper most of the time, but my shots were in nothing that resembled a group.

On the second trip, I got to the range with the wrong equipment. I had been wearing prescription sunglasses before going to the range and left my glasses at home. I did have an old pair of glasses in the glovebox of my car and that is what I ended up using while shooting. Here's a hint about my performance; if you can't see the sights, your groups won't be very good regardless of how hard you try.

[Lone_Gunman]

This is the most irritating thread I have read all day.

[Maxinquaye]

"Thanks for the spelling correction "ND"--it's Christmas eve and I haven't had my $5 cup of Starbucks tonight. It's good to have secretary types around to correct spelling mistakes on forums."

Resorting to ad hominem attacks is a sure sign you've lost the argument but are too dumb to know it.

OK, who left the screen door open and let the troll in? :)

[outofbattery]

I thought that an "armchair commando" was someone who didn't have anything better to do than criticize others instead of doing something themselves ? Seems to me all that time spent on looking for others' faux pas would be better spent shooting but that could just be me .

Not everyone that owns a < insert firearm of choice here > is going to use or want it for < insert activity of choice here > . Some days , I'll do nothing but practice drawing from cover at 10 yards and *waste* 4 boxes of ammo doing that but some days I'll get a bug up my arse to stand back at 150 yards and try to hit the plates off hand with my CCW's and *waste* 4 boxes doing that . Is it "realistic training" and can I do it with anything more than marginal success ? Nope , but it's my time and money and more importantly it's fun .

[Tamara]

My next AR upper project is going to be an 11.5" tube with a 4.5" flash hider, chambered in .223 Winchester Super Silly Magnum. The throat will erode to the point of uselessness in about 10 boxes of ammo. I will never even shoot it for groups. I am building it 1) Because the rounds fit in standard magazines, 2) For the sound & light show, 3) Because it is there, and 4) Because I am obviously an armchair commando.

[bogie]

1. Shooting is good.

2. Coaching (gently) is better.

I will ask questions. I'll also volunteer my help, like when I see Bubba and Cooter trying to sight in their deer rifle before the season (hey, at least they're trying...) and they're not even on paper. Show 'em how to field-boresight, and get 'em on target so that they still have a few rounds left.

What irritates me are the folks who know it all, and who insist on informing me of that fact. Yeah, I shoot a $300 Norinco 1911. You can't see the innards tho... And it really irritates me when the knowitalls accidentally shoot _my_ target.

"Why are you shooting so fast? Aren't you going to aim? And you can't tell where the bullets will hit, because the center of the target is gone - aren't you going to put up another one?"

Heh, heh, heh...

Then there's the folks who see a benchrest target, and their first words are "you missed the bullseye" and their second are "why'd you just shoot one hole in it?"

[Gabby Hayes]

I must be the odd man out here. Grew up before we had ninjas or "operators." Tactical was a military term, not a color, or type of clothing, or an attitude. Police officers wore blue, and had hats that weren't bullet resistant and didn't come from a baseball team. I go to the range mostly because I live in a country were I still can. Most of my shots go into the black. Okay, maybe not always on my own target, but at least they're movin' in the right direction. But I always have fun. And that's plenty good enough for me. :)

[Chuck Jennings]

How many here play call your shot? Calling a specific place then hitting it is a lot harder than center target X ring. Just because everything isn't in a tight little center group doesn't mean a whole lot. Never Assume because of what happens.

Absolutely! Don't assume.

My wife and I somestimes play a game where we put up a smallbore rifle target at 10 yards. We number each bullseye, and then we call each others shots. The object is to go from low ready to doubletapping the black of the bull # called out. Ineveitably, someone will show up, and make a comment on our groups. Not the point of that exercise!

[larryw]

I was friendly and offered to let her shoot a gun I had in exchange for shooting hers. I said I had never shot a G27 before and wanted to try it out (small white lie). So she shoots mine, I give her a little coaching to help out.
Deavis, that is a brilliant way to help without offending or embarassing. Thank you, SIR!

[shepsan]

An interesting aspect of this thread is that I have gone to the range for many of the reasons listed in this thread. However, my primary purpose in range work has always been to become more expert with a handgun. To that end, during each session I practice the basics of proper gun handling (breathing, grip, sight alignment, trigger squeeze and then swift realignment after recoil).

Each session consists of various defensive shooting drills, point shooting and bullseye target shooting. At the end of my serious practice, I spend time recreating in the great outdoors plinking away a box or two of ammunition. I get more enjoyment doing this than swinging a golf club or sitting with the guys swapping lies about everything in general.

However, even during my plunking “playtime,” my mindset while holding a gun is that it is a weapon not a toy; my gun is the means to deliver an irretrievable measure of death or destruction.

American shooters today are beset by those who want to deny us our constitutional right to bare arms. This is why I am pleased to see young people at the range. I believe it important to encourage them and not to denigrate or humiliate them because they do not yet possess the skills necessary to be “good” shooters.

Observing these newcomers, I appreciate their anxiety, excitement and confusion. There poor accuracy is not a laughing matter to them. I recognize that they are doing their best and that it is because of inexperience and not desire that their accuracy does not measure up to that of an experienced shooter.

Most of the range monitors where I shoot are serious and dedicated men. They honestly try to assist and instruct newcomers. They are cordial yet authoritative in their demeanor. Most importantly, they keep the range safe.

I have also observed those at the range who demonstrate cavalier and negligent behavior. At my age, I have little hesitation about pointing a monitor to these hotshots who are making the range unsafe for themselves and the rest of us.

I hope all of you have a joyous and safe Christmas. Good and safe shooting!

Regards.

[rust collector]

LOL B36!! Your point is well taken about gun writers. Some shoot well, some write well, but the two traits don't necessarily coexist in the same body.

All of us could probably tell stories about some of the antics we've seen at the range or some of the mindless destruction we've seen at public ranges. It is a little alarming to see us working each other over because we have different approaches to the shooting sports. We feel strongly about our pastime, and we want everyone who does it to do it safely and effectively, but...

This is the high road, after all. We do enjoy what other shooters bring to the mix, or we wouldn't be here. And it's Christmas day, a time for good will and relaxation.

It may hit 40 degrees today in a largely (and unusually) snowless prairie setting. Sounds like time to get out there and have a little fun with my son who is home on leave from the Air Force. If we do get out there, all I can guarantee is that safety will be the first consideration.

Here's wishing you lots of range time and thoroughly ventilated bullseyes in 2005.

[jacketch]

Frequently when I shoot, I will aim for different parts of the target. This gives me unused areas of the paper when I have shot out a section and the range is still hot and the target can't be switched. Looks bad with holes everywhere but I don't go to the range to impress anyone.

[Chuck Jennings]

jacktech,

I do the same thing. Sometimes it just because I am cheap! :D

[Curare]

I guess I was a bit critical here of some of the shooters I have seen at the range. The range just seems so much different now from when my father took me as a boy. He started me off before we even went to the range. He spent several hours on the fundamentals. Then it was off to the range. My first pistol experience was with the old High Standard. Later, when I had demonstrated proficiency with that, I graduated to our Colt 1911. These fundamentals were handed down in succession from my ancestors, and I will pass them on to my children.

It saddens me today to see newbies jumping from the sales counter to the range with no safety training, let alone learning the fundamentals of stance, grip, sights, and trigger control. Its more common than you think. The focus is the gun--not how to use it.

Firearms are serious business. It's one thing to see an experienced shooter blasting. It's a different thing entirely to see a noob with less than 500 rounds experience making the target carrier dance with rapid fire shot misses. New shooters are great, but those who do not actively seek how to become proficient may become frustrated and inactive.

As was pointed out by Guy Meredith and 2nd Amendment, there are some shooters who just don't get it. Some care as little about range safety as they do seeing a crisp front sight bounce up on a blurry target with a controlled pair.

[schizrade]

It's a different thing entirely to see a noob with less than 500 rounds experience making the target carrier dance with rapid fire shot misses. New shooters are great, but those who do not actively seek how to become proficient may become frustrated and inactive.

Some people are shy and introverted. They will not seek out help. I am this way. I learn not by being "coached" but by reading and observing. Coaches piss me off. :fire: But I am always open to constructive criticism.

Some people need to be coached but are too meek to ask. I have approached many people to offer help. One guy had a 10/22 that had been in an attic for at least 20 years and was totally siezed up. I offered to help him lube it right there and showed him how to take it down to lube and clean it. He didn't know that you were supposed to clean it! :what: So instead of assuming that he was a smacktard, I just showed him what needed to be done and now I see him every week.

And by saying that everything has changed and it's somehow been ruined by noobs is being very defeatest.

It saddens me today to see newbies jumping from the sales counter to the range with no safety training, let alone learning the fundamentals of stance, grip, sights, and trigger control. Its more common than you think. The focus is the gun--not how to use it.

This makes me angry. How arrogant of you. Not everybody takes your path to learn to shoot. Just because you feel that there is a right path to marksmanship does not make it fact. My first gun was not a .22 plinker but an 8mm Mauser. I was 8. When I bought my first handgun they asked if I had ever owned one and I said no. Then the guy about freaked out that I wanted to buy a .45 as my first handgun. He said that he didn't feel comfortable selling a .45 to a first timer. :fire: :cuss: I calmly explained that while this was the first pistol I have ever OWNED, I have been learning to shoot them since I was 12. He assumed. His loss. He looked like the ass in the end.

The point: don't assume that everybody is a total idiot and some of us can learn to safely and correctly do something without 300 hours of training.

[Curare]

Thanks for the comments.

I would like to point out that I never implied things were ruined--they're just different than they used to be. That's my perspective at my shooting range. :) The focus has shifted to overly marketed firearms that are hyped in gun magazine, from fundamentals that many of us took the time to learn, and continue to improve upon.

Will someone here support the contrary argument that new shooters are more concerned about fundamentals and safety and less concerned about equipment? Is that what you predominantly see at ranges?

Being aware and critical of differences is not defeatest.

[Guy B. Meredith]

I would never be critical of new shooters, but am very critical of those who never get beyond macho.

I do not look down on honest beginners as I am one of those "idiots", and I am very, very aware that I really got off to a bad start despite my voluminous reading and study on firearms previous to purchase of my first gun in 30+ years, the 686+.

I am not a macho type and despise trendiness, but there I was with my new revolver and several boxes of fairly hot .357 magnum. Couldn't hit the paper at 7 yards and couldn't figure out why. No one bothered to mention I should try .38 spls and use empty charge holes to monitor flinch and trigger pull. Watching my wife make the first 1.5" group at 7 yards with range .38 spl got me thinking.

Much to my frustration it still takes up to 30 rounds to warm up and calm down and still requires empty chambers if I've not shot in a month or so.

After the warm up I simply build a hole in the middle of the black for a few hundred rounds (more interested that the rounds are not outside the hole than where they are inside the hole), but it doesn't come easy.

Now I try to share this experience with shooters who seem to be interested in developing a skill rather than get off on macho trips.

One amusing side story is that one day on the range a gentleman with an accent (can't remember which part of Europe or Balkans) was shooting VERY poorly with a Desert Eagle at 20 yards. It was obvious he was dealing with recoil anticipation. I and one other shooter counseled him that a good practice is to get up close to get a better picture of what is happening and that he might like to try something with less recoil for a while (the other helpful shooter meaning a .45 acp). The gentleman with the DE allowed as how we were probably right about the recoil and said that he probably should have brought his .454 Casull for that purpose. :eek:

However, once the gentleman got down to the 7 yard range and began empty magazine and other sight picture/trigger control tricks he did actually develop very respectable groups. A very strange, but successful day at the range.

[chickenfried]

I'd just like to point out safety and marksmanship are two different things. I'd rather shoot with a newby that is fastidious when it comes to safety, but groups all over the place. Versus a person that can shoot off a fly's nuts at 200 yards but can't observe basic safety rules.

[artherd]

What, you were born with perfect aim all the time?


I bought my first gun myself, when I was 23 years old. You should have seen the 'groups'. 12" at 100yds! This off the bipod, before I knew bags were better, with a 6-18x scoped .30-06 (albit ultimately 2-3MOA) autoloader.

Then I bought my first pistol, and went shooting for the second time in my life at an indoor range. Heart thundering, still surprised by my own muzzle blast and that of other range-users. I manage maybe 10" groups at 15 feet. With my whiz-bang new Glock 34 long-slide 'target' pistol that cost me $700.

I'm somewhat better now.

[Grampa]

Good thread! Lots of good discussion.

I often find a variety of shooters at the range, from the high power shooter who rides a bicycle out to the 400 meter line, to the young kids with a brand new Sig P229 and no ear protection. In the former case I observe the technique and hardware, and compliment on the targets. In the latter case, I always carry several sets of ear plugs, so it's easy to offer each a set, and start up a conversation about their excellent choice in a handgun. And, as opportunity allows, offer to show them takedown and cleaning tips, shooting pointers, and so on.

Occasionally, there is someone shooting unsafely. If they'll accept suggestions on proper shooting safety and range etiquette, fine. If not, it may be time to leave.

In most all cases, I'm just glad to see gun owners shooting. It's only when they are unsafe, am I critical of them shooting. We must always emphasize responsible gun ownership and shooting!

[HEiST]

My next AR upper project is going to be an 11.5" tube with a 4.5" flash hider, chambered in .223 Winchester Super Silly Magnum. The throat will erode to the point of uselessness in about 10 boxes of ammo. I will never even shoot it for groups. I am building it 1) Because the rounds fit in standard magazines, 2) For the sound & light show, 3) Because it is there, and 4) Because I am obviously an armchair commando.

Can I come see it?

[Model520Fan]

Nice post, Deavis.

[Stingray]

I agree that things seem a bit different than when I started shooting. There seems to be a lot of people at the range who are trying to be Hollywoood and just step up and rapid fire with no regard to where the shots go. I have even seen a couple of kids at the range holding their 9mm "gangsta" style trying to hit the target.

The thing is, most of these people will learn that even though rapid firing is fun, it is hard to hit what you are aiming at, and sooner or later they will come around and join the sport, or fade away. Either way I think it is great when I see someone new entering the hobby, it reminds me of when I first started shooting and I had to work overtime just for range fees and ammo.

[macman37]

I guess I didn't take Curare's post the same way others did.

Maybe it's just the way I was taught to shoot, but for the most part when I go to the range I try to work on something or learn something each time- and I guess if my meager knowledge could help someone cure a flinch or something like that, I try to help. I have off days and on days and I really only compare myself to my own "median" so I know if I did well or not. I go to the range for fun just like the next guy, but the difference with guns is that your avocation might just become something that saves your or someone else's life/lives some day. Don't deny it. If I run a list of people I have seen, will I get the same response?

* The guy with a laser on his gun who centers the dot perfectly at 15 feet- then as he jerks the trigger back can barely keep the shot on paper.

* The guy showing his clearly flustered girlfriend/wife how to shoot for the first time with a .44 magnum (yes I've seen this and YES it irritates me).

* Anyone shooting with the gun held gangsta style for anything more than one or two rounds (I did it to see what the hubbub was about- then quickly reverted).

* The guy who has a flinch (target looks like a shotgun hit it at 10 feet) but is too proud to take any kind of (very) polite instruction from an person who can help.

There are more to be sure. I have also witnessed outstanding examples of people just being cool to one another. There is truth in the old "armed society is a polite society" adage. People loaning tools, knowledge, letting others shoot their guns to show that the AR isn't some high powered killing device, helping others learn more about this great sport.

It's all in a day at the range.

[stevekl]

Man, I thought I had a control freak complex, but some of you guys really take the cake.

I would advise you to calm down, relax, and don't let yourself get so bothered by what other people do. There's no law that says you can't have fun while shooting, nor that only marksmen should be able to use your range.

[Chuck Jennings]

Macman37,

THR has a number of threads where we have discussed some of the people that you and Curare have listed. However, I beleive that many people were rubbed the wrong way with what seemed to be a very elitist and condescending attitude. Also, there was a very baseless assumption made:

I imagine people like this make up a huge percentage of people on shooting forums. I'm sure they speak with great certainty as they debate the latest cartridge, handgun or tactical technique, yet they can't do something as simple as hit a stationary target in ideal conditions.

[pharmer]

There was a time when I was easily able to keep all my shots inside a 3" bull at 50 feet. Single action or double, revolver or auto didn't matter. Nowadays I point shoot, Can't see the top of the gun without my reading glasses, can see the gun and sights but nothing else with them. I'm lucky, targets are cheap these days, a piece of letter size paper and if I try I can keep most of my shots on it. I sure do envy the hotshots with the ragged hole but I had my chance at it. Keeps me humble and out of trouble as I never kid myself about my "ability" when carrying. Joe

[Curare]

OK Chuck--I'll update the quote:

I imagine people like this make up a huge percentage of people on Glocktalk. I'm sure they speak with great certainty as they debate the latest cartridge, handgun or tactical technique, yet they can't do something as simple as hit a stationary target in ideal conditions.

Everyone feel better now?

:D

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I always felt that a rifle is not worth owning unless you can bump fire it!
I also like to set up a target at about 15 yards and squint real hard while weaving and then empty the pistol real fast kinda like it would be my momma's while drunk and somebody coming in the trailer. It gets strange looks and I get the finger alot but hey!

[12-34hom]

Curare, you're really digging yourself a hole - better stop and climb out.

12-34hom.

[Mark8252]

Anyone shooting safely is to be commended for promoting the sport. They are at the very least not trying to take away my right to shoot.
Anything else is nobodys business but their own.
I don't care if I hit the target...much less if they do.

[U.F.O.]

Hi All. New member at THR and relatively new to shooting/CCW.

I know golfers who have played golf for 40 years and rarely ever broken 100.

I know runners who pound the bricks 6-7 days a week and couldn't run a 9 minute mile if a pit bull was after them.

But they love what they do for their sport or hobby. I salute them.

What I think about their performance is irrelevant.

It's their business.....not mine.

You guys have a great forum here and I look forward to learning and hopefully contributing when the ignorance wears off a little. :)

U.F.O.

[pax]

When I started shooting, my buddy and I would often go out into the woods with his homemade target stands and a stack of targets.

He'd shoot the targets, and I'd shoot the stands.

Oh, sometimes I got one on the target by mistake, but by and large my bullets whistled harmlessly past the paper or thudded into the wood stands.

My buddy got so sick of rebuilding his stands that he talked me into taking a shooting class.

I haven't shot the target stand since, though I've never yet achieved groups like I regularly hear reported by others online.

Oh, about other people's shooting? I like helping folks learn to shoot better, but only when they ask for help. Approaching a total stranger with advice they did not request is ... well, outside my comfort zone would be the polite way of putting it.

pax

The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on; it is never of any use to oneself. -- Oscar Wilde

[JohnBT]

"Tactical was a military term, not a color." - good one ;)

Appearances can be deceiving. Do I ever...

Shoot a snub at 100 yards with my left hand? - yep (don't hit much)

Shoot at all the little numbers, letters, dots and rings on each target? - yep

Put up a 3'x3' piece of plain paper and chase my own shots? - yep

Shoot at the abandoned targets with untouched bullseyes? - always :)

Shoot other peoples' guns better than they can? (This usually happens when somebody says "Would you like to try to shoot an accurate gun instead of that thing you're fooling with?") - sometimes, but not always. Just because I'm messing with a relative's or friend's gun trying to figure out why it won't shoot or work right doesn't mean I can't shoot at all.

A bad day at the range is better than a (fill in the blank)

John

[Gunnutz13]

"A bad day @ the range is better than a good day @ work !!"

"I love the smell of gunpowder in the morning...afternoon...evening !!"

"Practice...practice...practice !"

Be safe, have fun...life is too short ! :evil:

[benEzra]

12-34hom, tossing a football around with the kids is fun. Range time is preparation for a life-and-death situation. Excellence is all that matters.
Sometimes, but not always. I shoot both for proficiency and for fun. So does almost every other shooter I know.

[Gunpacker]

Some of you guys have forgotten your roots. You didn't start out as an Olympic shooter, although we must have some here judging by the attitudes. Everyone starts at a low level of ability compared to potential. Some start lower than others. There is also a wide range of improvement, based on individual personalities and shooting desires. Some shoot simply to make sure that they can operate their firearm. Consequently there are levels of shooters from those that can't hit anything and never will, to those that shoot flies at 100 yds. As long as they shoot safely, we have no cause to condemn anyone. We may shake our head and wonder how they can enjoy what they are doing, but that is because individuals are widely different. Wouldn't be any fun if every shot was like in the movies, where you never miss. Kinda like golf, where you could get rich if you put every shot exactly where you wanted it, but you wouldn't enjoy the game. :)

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I think I met one of those serious shooters at the range one time.
He was complaining and yelling at me all the time, something about all the holes in his target from flying rocks and parts of vcr and tv I was shooting.
I could not see what he was complaining about but being the nice guy I am I put the rifle away and just shot the shotgun but man I could not hit the target at 100 yards with it and he was ticked about that too.
Some folks just like to curb others fun I guess?

[Igloodude]

Having been introduced to shooting via Bullseye, my accuracy standards are a bit higher than the average plinker. It makes me happy when I visit the range and see others shooting larger groups than me, at closer range. On the other hand, I shoot reeeeeaaaally slow compared to some of them. No worries, as long as they're being safe and I'm being safe.

Not having much experience with anything besides 1911 .45's and some different .22's (and that is pretty much confined to trigger-pulling), I'm not likely to offer advice to anyone else at the range unless they ask me for it.

[gc70]

I think the very best shooters are pretty humble.

A neighbor who had been on a college shooting team recently went shooting with me - it was his first time in 30 years. He did the "one ragged hole" thing with my Ruger KMP512 at 25 yards. When we examined the target, he observed that he was really rusty on his basics because the hole WAS ragged around the edges!

Although he said he was too out-of-practice to instruct anyone, he is now helping me with my basics. ;)

[12-34hom]

Gunpacker said Kinda like golf, you could get rich if you could put every shot exactly where you wanted it, but i would"nt enjoy the game

Wanna Bet... ;)

12-34hom