[pdh]

Picked up on some Rem 700 bashing on another site.One fellow is a Dealer/Gunsmith and said he would not recommend a 700 or any other Remington product.Said quality control went way south.The other guy(do not know if he is in gun business field)said they were just plain junk.

I have 3 700's.Last one was bought about 3 years ago.I have not had any trouble or complaints with any of these 3 rifles what so ever.They shoot and function like a dream.
LOVE EM!!!

Ford and Chevy thing ?????

[Art Eatman]

About the closest I'd come to a "bash" is that I think the synthetic stocks on the WallyWorld ADLs are a bit flimsy in the forearm. However, mine, in .308, will easily hold right at one MOA...

Otherwise, they have an excellent reputation for accuracy.

Art

[Sir Galahad]

I've heard a lot of QC issues with Remington firearms. It could be something as simple as a vendor change with some of their parts. I've been a warranty repairman for some years now (not firearms; electrical equipment) and, believe me, it only takes changing ONE vendor on ONE part to ruin an entire product. Lots of companies see the saving of one nickle on the product production cost but don't see the spending of $150 later when it comes back to the warranty department. Vendor changes on old products are usually done when they find a cheaper vendor. That's when you start seeing what used to be a great product turn into a so-so product. The company relies on the name to sell the product and newer users not used to the way the old one was might not know the difference. I'm not saying that's what Remington is doing, but there is that possibility.

As I recall, a lot of the red flags on the Rem 700 centered around a defect(?) that caused the rifle to fire when flicked on or off safety. I think Remington recalled rifles that fell under that defect, as I remember. This was all centered around a case where a guy came back from hunting and accidently shot himself to death with a 700 while taking it off or putting on safe. (Yeah, watch your background, watch your sweep, and never rely on a "safety", and never point weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot---but it only takes one incident like that to break a company.) Anyway, the guys mother was suing Remington the last I heard.

I can tell you that quality across the board with LOTS of American products is doing the spiral in the toilet bowl. Some more so than others. There are a few companies who make quality Job One. But, unfortunately, one of the reasons some firearms companies cut corners is because they're having to retain high-priced lawyers to defend themselves against being sued by shooting victims shot by their product. They better realize they can also be sued by making a defective product that injures the user.

[Badger Arms]

QC is a relative thing. In terms of mechanical quality, there is NOTHING WRONG with the M700 that is intentional or neglectfull. That one case being the exception, the M700 is reliable and safe. As far as fit and finish, the M700 is going down the same path as the majority of gun companies and other types of companies for that matter. They cut corners to make the products cheaper and increase profits.

We should remember that Savage has always done this and therefore we expect it from them.

[Mike Irwin]

I, too, have been noticing some spotty QC on 700s and other Remington firearms over the past couple of years.

Disturbing trend.

Stuff that normally would have not gotten out of the factory but is.

None of the things that I've seen would interfere with the functioning of the rifle, but glaring stock, finish, fit, etc. problems I don't expect to see in a $600 rifle from a major US manufacturer.

[762x51]

Same here.....have seen a few finish problems on some more recent rifles but HARDLY junk. What is this guy shooting that says they are junk? :rolleyes:

[pdh]

762x51,the guy saying that 700's are junk is a Kimber fan.

[Sir Galahad]

Hold the phone! I think there was a safety recall on some Kimber rifles. Hmmm......anyone remember hearing that?

[BHP9]

I do not think anyone should signal just Remington out. It seems as though all firearms companies today have sunk to an all time low in terms of overall quality control.

I believe most firearms companies actually think the consumer is conditioned to accept junk products and that it is high time the firearms companies jumped on the band wagon too, in regards to making products faster and cheaper with little or no regard to durability or quality.

I think the consumer has come to expect that anything he buys these days will require some fixing or replacing of parts.

In regards to the Remington 700 here are my thoughts:

Most people do like the Remington 700 because of its outstanding accuracy and its affordable price and its factory adjustable trigger.

Having said all the nice things about the M700 , I personnally do not care for the rifle.

I have seen that under heavy use and sometimes even moderate use the Remington is just not to be relied on.

I have personnaly seen 700's under extreme use suffer a high failure rate of

1. Broken extractors,

2. Feeding problems,

3. People hurt when cartridge cases let go and the rifle sprayed hot gas back into their face,

4. Trigger problems, including malfuncitions from accumulation of debrie in the enclosed trigger system that tends to trap it and hold it there.

5 .And triggers that let go when set to light. True, any gun can fire when the trigger is set on the light side but the Remingtons seem to fire at a higher rate that other guns like say the M70 Winchester.

All these problems except for extractor breakage (I have seeen it happen even on new 700,s) usually is not experieced by the occasional weekend shooter or even the once a year hunter but when thousands of rounds are pored throught the 700's the incidents soon manifest themselves.

I realize that I am being very critical on what I would call weekend recreational guns and it is of little importance when looked at in this light but when you are on an expensive hunt out in the middle of nowhere my first choice has always been one of the following:

1st choice------The 98 Mauser, the most rugged , safest and most reliable rifle ever invented and the world standard even today over 100 years after its inception. The word quality is synonymous with the name "Original Mauser" ,it has no castings, no stamped sheet metal and no plastic used in its construction.

2nd. Choice:------The Model 70 Winchester pre-64. Not as safe as the Model 98 because of its inferior gas escape system or as reliable because of its modern speed lock firing mechanism but a very good working mans gun.

3rd choice-----Model 70 Post 64. Believe it or not it is one of the most misunderstood of any gun Winchester rifle ever made. But it has one of the smoothest actions and strongest extractors of any of the newer more modern guns. Its accuracy is every bit as good as the Remington 700.

Of couse their are many other famous bolt guns like the Sako's , Shultz and Larsens, Husqvarna, Brno, 03 Springfield, 1917 Enfield, Mannlicher-Schoenauer, Savage 110, Weatherby MK V to name just a few.

And lets not forget the sporters built on the Japanese Arisaka, perhaps one of the strongest built bolt action military rifles ever built.

[EJ]

Another vote for the WIN 70 Pre and Post-

:D

[pdh]

Oh my beloved 700's. :D
I am no expert by no means but my .308 Varmint Special was bought new sometime in the early 80's.Can not tell you how many rounds where shot through it but have always put it through the mill at the time I bought it,during spring up through the fall on informal target shooting and varmint hunting.Just as happy with it now as when the day I bought it.Not a bit of trouble with it.

Got my 700 VS sometime in early to mid 90's.Tackdriver and no maint problems with it either.

There is alot of great guns out there in the market.All have their strong and weak points.I personally think though,you can't go wrong with a Remington 700.Mine has never let me down.

[Art Eatman]

BHP9, given the 700's chamber design, how in the world could a cartridge case "let go"?

Another way to look at it: A case that would let go in a 700 would let go even "worster" in a claw-feed rifle. There's more and thinner brass which is unsupported.

Art

[BHP9]

Another way to look at it: A case that would let go in a 700 would let go even "worster" in a claw-feed rifle. There's more and thinner brass which is unsupported

I agree with you Art. But in the failures that I have seen the 98 Mauser will divert the gases away from the shooter face no matter how catastrophic the case lets go.

I had a friend only last summer that blew up his .223 Remington, and that little cartridge, when it blew. even shattered the stock.

And I hand another friend who blew up a 30-06 Rem. Even though the case is better supported than a cone feed guns like the Pre-64 Winchester the Rem. chamber does not prevent the case from letting go. The 30-06 Rem. Model 700 actually had the cartridge base practically welded to the bolt face.

Its always amazed me that more modern guns often have so little protection for the shooter if a case lets go. Many newer guns like the new Sako model do not even have one gas escape vent in the reciever. The older REM. 788 also had very little gas protection in the event of a blow case.

I have seen a few modern guns give pretty good protection like the excellent gas baffle system found in the Savage 110 and also in the Weatherby MK V which also seems to protect the shooter fairly well .

Most people simply do not believe that anything will ever go wrong with the weapon they buy and do not take a hard look at the mechanical design of the weapon before they decide to purchase a weapon. MOst look at price first and accuracy second giving little thought to the ruggedness or long term reliability or safety of the weapon. Since most use their weapons very little this is probably somewhat justified but if you are a match shooter pouring thousands of rounds through a gun or traveling to the far and distant corners of the globe where on the spot repairs may be needed the History of a weapon is well worth taking into consideration.

I strongly suggest that anyone that is interested in rifles buy and read cover to cover the excellent book called "Bolt Action Rifles" by Frank De Haas. Also go back and read last years Shooting Times Magazine that carried one of the best articles ever written on the 98 Mauser by the talented and respected gun writer "Rick Jamison". You do not want to miss reading his excellent article on the inner workings of the world famous 98 Mauser.

[clem]

I've got a 700 BDL in .308 WIN. that I purchased in 1970, new, for $119.00. It has fired at least 5,000 rounds and is still a nail driving killer.

Great rifles!

[cheygriz]

After all of the years of totally unjustified winchester bashing, it was inevitable.

There's nothing wrong with the 700. Never has been!

There's also nothing wrong with the Model 70. Never has been.

[goon]

Aren't the Military sniping rifles (M40) built on 700 actions?
I know that most of us who were in the military know that military equipment does not usually work as well as it is supposed to.
But I doubt that out of all of the rifles that the US military could choose from, they would choose a POS.
I am sure that there will be a M-16 slam coming up pretty soon from that statement.

[labgrade]

IIRC, Gale McMillian made some comment about the 700 bashing over at TFL - do a search.

"When I developed the M40 for the military .... " :cool: I dint need to be convinced, but lends some non-credence to the "700 sucks" themes.

While watching most any "sniper flic," take a look at the safety (vertical versus horizontal travel = 700 vs 70) & you'll see that almost every one of 'em is a 700.

Last 700 I bought was easily 10 years ago. I did the smart thing & walked through a few of the dealer's offerings & picked the one I liked best. Finish shine can be taken care of with about 10 minutes w/0000 steel wool - dulls the "shine" & turns glossy to satin. Concentrate on the mechanicals. & Rem's factory triggers are one of the best for adjustability/tweaking.

I've a couple 70s = beautiful rifles & many more 700/7s. All told, I'd rather have Rem's offerings. Yup, maybe the Ford versus Chevy thing. Neither suck.

One thing I have noticed though, is that QC/mfg process seems to have taken a nose-dive.

Bought a new S&W 66 a few back & there was still burrs hanging from the cylinder fluting process. Had to hand-deburr myself.

Nobody's immune. Merely a function of getting more out the door at the "best" price.

[redneck2]

the "truth" is a compilation of one's experiences

I own, or have owned, 5 different 700's. All were good, some were excellent, and one was just bought a few months ago.

My friend had a 22-250 that shot considerably less than 1" at 200 yards.

I also saw 2 at a local shop (Lunkers in Edwardsburg, MI) that were awful. The proof stamps for the barrels were on top, the finish and fit were awful.

Salesman said "kinda wonder what the inside is like" and "an inspector NEVER could have looked at that rifle". This was maybe 3 years ago.

Which is true???? They both are.

[YodaVader]

The only problem I have encountered with the Remingtons I have owned or the 700s owned by friends was stiff feeding fron the magazine. The amount of effort required to feed a round was considerable on a few I have tried. It would help if you can bench press 350 pounds! On my friend's 700P in .308 the effort was so extreme I simply single loaded afterwards.

Relieving the magazine spring tension did wonders for one of my 700s. My current 700 I use as a single shot anyway and actually have a single shot adapter or follower.

Some of the current 700s I see with the H&S stock have a huge gap on on side of the barrel and the barrel almost touches on the other side.

But I will say that all the 700s I have owned or any of the ones owned by friends that I have shot have all been extremely accurate.

[Byron]

About two years ago I bought a new ADL/synthetic stock in 243. I had shot about 50 rounds through it. When taking out of my safe, I opened the bolt and the bolt handle came cleanly off the bolt. It was sent back to Remington and repaired. I have owned several 700's over the years and this is the problem that I have had. I shoot Ruger 77's now.

[Art Eatman]

The reason I had the question about "blowup": The 721 was the fore-runner to the 700. Remington's acid test--omitting the lengthy story--was a .30-'06 cartridge with a caseful of something like 4064 powder and FOUR 220-grain bullets in front of it.

Nothing blew up. (Lord knows what the "group" looked like. :D )

So I guess my question relates to the mechanism of a blowup in that type of chamber. Doesn't matter if it's Remington, Sako or Weatherby. "How do it happen?" What, a caseful of Bullseye? A .32 bullet in a .308 bore? I dunno. It's certainly hard to envision a brass case that's so porous and weak...

?

Art

[cratz2]

I do own or have owned probably 5 in the last five years. I've never had an actual problem with any of them. As others have said, the synthetic stocks are very cheesy as are the Savage synthetics.

I had a trigger smith friend work on my 700 Police and he was able to get just over 2 lbs with the factory trigger. Feels great. The only other 700 I currently own is my ADL in 270. I worked the trigger until I'm happy with it. For super precision work, I'd probably pay someone to clean it up a bit but it's plenty accurate for me.

Regardless of what one smith says, the 700 is still the current action of choice for precision rifles in the under $3,000 range and there are plenty of precision shooters, benchrest competitors and hunters (and deer and elk for that matter :D ) that will attest to the fact that they are generally very capable rifles.

[12-34hom]

Rem 700 = excellent fare.

I've owned 2, one both factory offerings. One i had modified into my current varmint hunting rifle.

They are the base for many varmint and benchrest rifles. How many Winchester - Ruger - Savage do you see compared to Remington 700 based rifles?

12-34hom.

[BusMaster007]

What's the deal with the bolt handles pulling off? :what:

[nextjoe]

BusMaster,

The deal with the bolt handles is that they're silver soldered on.... and often not well done. At least one professional hunter was found killed by an elephant. His 700 was some distance away, with the bolt handle missing.

It's possible the elephant broke off the handle while it was playing with the gun, or it could've broken off during use and gotten him killed. No one really knows what happened.

Best,
Joe

[BHP9]

When I developed the M40 for the military .... " I dint need to be convinced, but lends some non-credence to the "700 sucks" themes.

Interesting and not surprising that you mentioned the Military version called the M40.

Most people think that just because the military has adopted it that it therfore follows that it is the best there is. Unfortunately reality is quite different.

Down through history there have been many prestigious weapons, a lot of which simply were not the best design of the time. Examples are legion, including the German Luger, Italian carcano, U.S. M16 and so forth.

Associating a famous person with the weapon such as George Luger or Gale Mcmillan cuts no ice either. Both men and many like them were in it to make money. Nothing wrong with that but if Gale Mcmillian had been told to develope the 1960's era Mossberg 800 rifle or update the WWII Japanese Arisaka for the U.S. military many now would consider them to be the ultimate sniper rifle. Maybe true in the regards to an updated Arisaka but defineately not in an updated Mossberg 800.

The Military folks even considered at one time issuing spare bolts with the M40 in case of extractor breakage because the extractor is not readily replaceable in the field.

One must remember also that the Military M40 is not a stock M700 but a completely rebuilt gun. Some of the examples I looked at had the bottom stamped sheet metal trigger guard replaced with a heavy duty all steel trigger guard.

I think if one reads Peter Senich's books on the M700 as used in Viet-Nam the rifles short commings especially in regards to the unreliable trigger when used under extreme combat conditions proves how superior other battle rifles were which at the time included the Pre-64 Winchester whose trigger system did not fail under identical circumstances when used early in the Viet Nam war.

One must not just look at the extreme accuracy aspect of the M700 (granted it is a very accurate rifle) but one must look at the overall performance of the weapon under severe conditions. The ability to replace an extractor or take out the firing pin without the use of tools or the reliability of the trigger and extractor, and the gas protection system are all factors that weigh heavily in the overall evaluation of the performance of the weapon under extrememe conditions.

The replacement of the bottom metal in the M700 to transform it into a more rugged M40 is just another example of how the designers had to overcome many of the shortcomings of the M700 as it was found in its original civilian produced configuration. Problem mechanical aspects which included:

the trigger design

and extractor design,

and gas escape system,

and the short and weak ignition system

and push feed operation, that

never were modified to the point that made it ever remotely the equal of say the M98 Mauser or even the Pre-64 Winchester.

In short, the M700 that was developed into the M40 was a desperation adoption of an off the shelf civilian rifle that was needed under hurry up war time conditions during the Viet Nam war. It was a mistake then and is still a mistake today. But like any weapons system the Military will fight to keep it even when it is proven that something better is out there to replace it. It is just history repeating itself over and over again.

So what would I recommend today?

Because of the many complex machining operations the M98 would not be the first choice of the military. Not because it could not be done and not because it would be too expensive. Lets face it when you pay billions for just one jet plane the money is certainly there to make a few high quality rifles but it does not fit in with the lets make it as fast and cheap as possible. Small arms are also given extemely low budget priority because they are not considered as important as say jet planes. This does have some merit in producing the average battle rifle because they are used up so quickly in combat but I think the sniper rifle that is used in far less numbers certainly should be an exception to the rule. The M98 could even be made with investment casting today and still produce a worthy battle rifle if top of the line castings were used.

Another option would be a return to the M70 Winchester. Cheaper to make than the M98 although not as good or realiable a weapon in terms of ignition and gas escape provisions. But a much better choice than the M40 because of the M70 Winchesters superior trigger and extractor which includes not only the Pre-64 but also the Post-64.


So whats all this mean to the average Joe shooter who loves his Remington 700. Absolutely nothing. It works for him under his operating conditions, its accurate and affordable and to him it is the ultimate rifle.

But for the worlds military's or the Globe trotting hunter hanging off the side of the Tibetan mountain in pursuit of Marco Polo sheep during an ice storm and where thousands of dollars have been spent on a very expenisve hunt you won't find many carring the Remington 700. Not if they have done their homework right.

[Robby from Long Island]

I bought my first Remington 35 years ago. It was a heavy barreled Varmint Special in .243 that consistantly shot 5 shot groups of 3/4" at 100 yards.

15 years later bought the same model in .222 and found it capable of even greater accuracy. Was I now a fan? You better believe it.

About 10 years ago purchased a 700 PSS in .223 with the hopes of even getting smaller groups. No deal. Actually, my triple deuce and .243 are more accurate than my PSS, but not by much so I really can't complain.

Anyway, for my purposes I would never complain about any one of my Remington's and consider them well worth the money spent. I just wish I could wring their true potential out, but the problem with that is ME and not the guns.

Safe shooting.

[Quintin Likely]

People tend to forget when things are put into mass production, errors happen...its human nature. Maybe Remington's been writing checks that they can't cash, I dunno. My personal experience? I've got a 700VS in .308...its a sweet shooter, I tweaked the stock trigger, now it breaks like a glass rod at around 3 lbs. I can't speak for the millions (billions?) of civilians, law enforcement, or military on how they think the 700 action is, since I'm not in their shoes. Any mechanical device is prone to failure...just when certain ones fail, its blown out of proportion.

[Marshall]

How do you shoot yourself taking off a rifle safety with being negligent in handling the gun?

[goon]

I have been shooting since I was four years old. Over that eighteen year period, I have learned alot about rifles. For the purposes of this thread, I will keep it brief.
My dad, My grandfather, and myself have all owned Savage rifles.
My grandfather bought his M-99 in 1923, my dad in the '60's. I bought my scout about two years ago. They all work flawlessly, and will put a bullet through a deer's eye at 100 yds.
I also had a 10FP that would do one hole groups all day.
Pretty good for cheap, substandard rifles, huh?
I just bought a Rem 700 ADL two weeks ago. It is a little stiff, but it is also brand new. It has no trouble making one hole groups, and that was with Port. surplus. Haven't got to really play with my handloads yet...
I will tell you guys what it is like after a few thousand rounds.

As far as the Remington, do any of you guys have any experiece with any faults? There is alot of heresay. I would appreciate firsthand experience so that I know what things, if any, I should watch out for and possibly replace before I have any trouble.

[Art Eatman]

Been shooting centerfires since 1950. Around 1980, I had a firing pin break on a Model 12. Outside of that, I've never had anything bad happen...

:), Art

[BusMaster007]

The Winchester Model 70 crowd reminds me of the story about "On and On Anon"...
(nothing personal here, just observations)

nextjoe wrote:
BusMaster,

The deal with the bolt handles is that they're silver soldered on.... and often not well done. At least one professional hunter was found killed by an elephant. His 700 was some distance away, with the bolt handle missing.

It's possible the elephant broke off the handle while it was playing with the gun, or it could've broken off during use and gotten him killed. No one really knows what happened.

Best,
Joe


OK. It MIGHT be true. Is there a running tally on the number of PH's killed while carrying Mauser 98's or Model 70's?
Which part of those rifles broke off while getting stomped to smithereens?

BHP9 wrote:
So whats all this mean to the average Joe shooter who loves his Remington 700. Absolutely nothing. It works for him under his operating conditions, its accurate and affordable and to him it is the ultimate rifle.

But for the worlds military's or the Globe trotting hunter hanging off the side of the Tibetan mountain in pursuit of Marco Polo sheep during an ice storm and where thousands of dollars have been spent on a very expenisve hunt you won't find many carring the Remington 700. Not if they have done their homework right.


I did my homework and decided for a number of reasons to obtain a Remington 700 of one configuration or another over the Winchester Model 70.
Every year I take out my catalogs and think about this dilemma of 70 vs. 700, and every time I'm glad I chose the Remington. Something about the Model 70 doesn't agree with me.
I understand it's perceived 'superiority', but I don't believe it to be true, nor do I deem it worthy of the worship poured upon it by its adherants. Sorry.
The Winchester Model 70 is a great firearm, to be sure.
It's just not 'the perfect rifle', and shooting it exclusively doesn't make one a "Rifleman's Rifleman"... :neener: ;)


I won't be hunting Tibetan sheep or African elephant anytime soon...
I'm not a Military Sniper.
I'm not a Great White Hunter.
I'm not an Average Joe.
And there's no such thing as the Ultimate Rifle.
All rifles are subject to modification/improvement.
BUT ---
I do my homework right.

As someone mentioned...there's a lot of heresay re the Model 700.
Anyone familiar with Ross Seyfried? PH; Gunwriter; former pistol shooting Champ; etc.
He wrote an article for RIFLE magazine that described his Remington Model 700 in .416 Rem.Mag.
I cannot find the magazine at the moment. If I get a chance to dig through the stacks, I'll state the issue and date of the article.
As I remember, he thought the extractor was superior to that of the Mauser design.
The stock was modified with Bondo and left in an unfinished state.
The magazine box was altered in some way to promote feeding in more of a straight up fashion.
The handle was heated and bent back a bit to line up more closely with the trigger.
I think I remember he put an allen wrench beneath the floorplate spring for taking off the Talley scope mounts, which held a Leupold low power scope.
I don't recall if there were backup iron sights or not.
The rifle was utterly dependable and trustworthy.
If this gentleman was satisified with his Remington 700 as a DGR, albeit altered in minor fashion to suit his tastes, I'm satisified with my Remington 700's. :D

P.S. I prefer the Remington 700. Of course, this debate will go on forever and I agree to disagree agreeably with the Model 70 folks. :) :p
FLAME ON!

[YodaVader]

"At least one professional hunter was found killed by an elephant. His 700 was some distance away, with the bolt handle missing.

It's possible the elephant broke off the handle while it was playing with the gun, or it could've broken off during use and gotten him killed. No one really knows what happened.

Seems to me that most profesional hunters who go after truly dangerous game usually have others with them who are backing them up with additional BIG GUNS in the event of something going seriously wrong.

[dongun]

I have a variety of bolt guns - a M70 in 300WM and a M700 in .308, and a M77 in 30-06. The 700 is a tack driver with about anything I put in it - the 70 and the 77 are more finicky, but I've worked up loads that both like. I've put many more rounds through the 700 than the other two with no problems. I've adjusted the 700 trigger and never had a problem with it.

Anyway, I don't agree with the 700 bashing - I like them all. I believe we could have this same type argument about Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pickups or McDonalds, Wendy's, and Burger King hamburgers. Each has its pros and cons. Just because I like one more, doesn't mean the others are junk.

However, my Dell computer is so much better than your junky Gateway....

[hps1]

As far as the Remington, do any of you guys have any experiece with any faults?

First, let me say I am a Mod. 70 fan. I also believe that the 700 is an extremely accurate rifle out of the box, as a rule.

That being said, and in answer to your question, goon, yes I have had first hand experience which relates to a new 40XC target rifle. The 40XC is nothing more than a 700 action which is tuned by the custom shop, fitted with a heavy target barrel and special cross-the-course stock for NRA HP match shooting.

My 40XC was purchased new and was extremely accurate out of the box, "cleaned" the 600 yd. slow fire match on several occasions.

The problem with this rifle was that the very first round through it was an accidental discharge when I pushed the safety off. Before the question is asked, let me say that my hand was no where near the trigger when the rifle discharged. In subsequent discussions regarding this event, I found my experience was not an isolated one, fortunately, in my case, the rifle was pointed at the range backstop.

One of the causes of the "fire on release of safety" is solvent/residue/dirt accumulation in the trigger assy. This can be minimized by using a bore guide which replaces the bolt when cleaning your bore or simply turning the rifle upside down during the cleaning process. Another cause is improper adjustment of the trigger after it leaves the factory. Neither was the case with my new rifle. Remington has issued a recall on some of the early 700's to remedy this problem.

While I never personally had any extractor problems with the 40XC, several friends did, but most of these rifles probably had several thousand rounds through them at the time extractor failed. IIRC, I put around 3500 rounds thru mine before trading it, and other than a feeding problem (which I corrected by repacing follower spring) and the "FORS", it worked fine.

My first Mod. 70 Target (pre-64) now has over 13,500 rounds through the action without a single malfunction and another just like it has fired in the neighborhood of 2500 rounds with same results.

The primary reason I prefer the mod 70 is the fact that the safety blocks the firing pin, not just the sear/trigger. The other feature that IMHO is better than the 700 is the ability to disassemble the bolt without special tools.

Both the 700 and the Mod. 70 are good rifles.

Regards,
hps

[BigG]

BHP9: You have pointed out some of the shortcomings of the M700 Rem and I must say there are warts on the design (fire on moving safety off-safe) but for the casual hunter shooter the design seems to be rugged enough (bonus accurate out of box). You seem to be an advocate of the M98 Mauser.

I would like to know your take on the CZ550 or whatever their centerfire bolt gun is called, which I call the closest thing to an M98 made today. Seems to be a lot more rifle regarding forged/machined than either a Rem/Win/Rug of any stripe I've seen at less than 2-3X the price. How is it for ruggedness, accuracy, ease of maintenance, repair, etc. Mine (375 H&H) you can disassemble the bolt with your hands IIRC. Muchas gracias.

[pdh]

I am with dongun in everyway.Like I have said,no trouble with my 700's.Q/C is one of the issues here and every firearm manufacter has some problems with it from one point or another.

I also have a M77 Ruger I bought 15 years ago.When I pulled it out of the box was I very disappointed.It had the laminated stock.On barrel channel of the stock,they did a very bad job of working and finishing the wood.Looked terrible.
The blueing on the reciever turned to that redish cast and the rifle would not group well at all.How this rifle got past inspectors I'll never know.

Ruger treated me like a king.New stock,new barrel and refinished the reciever.OH,after hunting a year or so the finish on the laminated stock started peeling and I never really liked the stock anyway being pretty heavy.Wrote Ruger a letter asking to exchange the stock for a new walnut stock with me paying the price difference.Got the rifle back with a new walnut stock less that 3 weeks later with a bill that said no charge.I like this rifle very much but use my 700's more.

With all this being said,I believe all companys have some Q/C problems,not only Remington,but it is how they treat the consumer that counts for me.

Ruger does have a tremendous service dept!

[BHP9]

I would like to know your take on the CZ550 or whatever their centerfire bolt gun is called, which I call the closest thing to an M98 made today. Seems to be a lot more rifle regarding forged/machined than either a Rem/Win/Rug of any stripe I've seen at less than 2-3X the price. How is it for ruggedness, accuracy, ease of maintenance, repair, etc. Mine (375 H&H) you can disassemble the bolt with your hands IIRC. Muchas gracias

I do not own one of the current models but in the past I owned a .223 and a 270. A friend of mine also had one of the older models with the pop up rear peep sight.

The older CZ's were very well made guns. Mine gave me no trouble and shot very well.

A couple of years ago "Gun Tests Magazine" tested a .223 CZ and had nothing but praise for it.

AS far as the newer models that have been changed a bit I cannot say but you must be very careful. Its seems that CZ like everyone else these days is in a mad rush to cheapen everything.

Case in point. I was about to buy a CZ bolt .22 rimfire. A friend of mine went ahead and ordered one first and to our horror it came with a cheap all plastic magazine. This killed the sale for me. CZ saved a buck making the all plastic magazine and lost a customer forever.

I am not aware if CZ has also switched over to cast parts. Their CZ85 pistols are made largely with castings so I would not be surpised if their newer rifles have cast parts also. The only thing I can tell you is look before you leap and examine one of the newer models first before you spend you hard earned money. Accept no castings, no stamped sheet metal and no plastic if you are wanting a quality firearm. I know this is about impossible these days and thats why more and more people are buying older weapons of years past that were of known quality.

The other alternative is replacing parts on a new weapon that is both an insult and every expensive.

A third alternative is building a rifle but the cost can escalate very rapidly depending on what you want in a custom rifle.

A fourth alternative is finding a used gun even with a shot out barrel. Often they can be rebarreled and you will have way less money in a quality gun than most of the newer guns being offered today.

Example: One really good buy believe it or not is the Sears Model 50 rifles that were sold in the 50's. There are still a lot of them around and they had Belgian FN 98 Surpreme actions. Often they can be bought for only a good song. I paid $325.00 for a deluxe version with a beautiful walnut stock and hand checkering. The gun was a .270 (the 30-06 being far more common) and the gun shot fantastic 3 shot 1/2 in groups at 100 yards after I glass bedded the stock and put in a Timney trigger.

Remember to get out of the mind set that newer is better. It takes a little time and a little hunting at gun shows and a lot of patients but the used high quality gun is often the way better route to take these days in buying a rifle. Not to mention its resale value in the future.

If you want a varmit rifle the Current Model 70 push feed is still a good buy for the money. I picked up one from a friend and even though it was vertually new it sold for about $250 less than a new one. The guns bottom metal is of course aluminum but it can be replaced with steel components. The gun shot 1/4 in groups all day long with about any high quality match bullets I shot through it all the way from 52 grain match bullets to 75 grain match bullets. It had a 1 in 9 twist. I did glass bedd it and do a trigger job on it.

By the way do not believe the old wives tales that the aluminum bedding block makes it unnecessary to glass bed a weapon. Most I have worked with shot better after a glass bedding job even though they did have an aluminum bedding block. This is just my own opinion but I think the aluminum bedding block was put there originally more to stiffen and strengthen the bargan basement plastic stocks that Manufactures use these days rather than being put there with accuracy first and foremost in mind.

[clange]

As far as the Remington, do any of you guys have any experiece with any faults? There is alot of heresay. I would appreciate firsthand experience so that I know what things, if any, I should watch out for and possibly replace before I have any trouble.
Well i've had a few issues with mine (purchased about 3 years ago). First of all the finish sucks IMO. Its the black synthetic stock, matte finish. Seems no matter what i do it wants to rust a bit after virtually no time out of its case. God help me if any moisture gets on it. Second, the button thing you press up to remove the bolt will not reset itself when reinserting the bolt. It just wont do it. I can easily see someone putting the bolt back in and assuming it reset only to have it come out next time. I have to get something to actually pry the button out to get it to reset. Third, the bolt is pretty hard to close on a round sometimes (which is better then loose i guess). IMO it just shouldnt take the full force of my palm to get the bolt closed sometimes. Lastly is the crappy trigger, but apparently you can do something about that, i havent looked into it.

I will say though, despite the trigger, its pretty dang accurate.

[Art Eatman]

clange, that matte finish oughta hold oil just real good! It oughta be less rust-prone than a regular blued barrel.

Sounds like the bolt release is binding, which is easily stoned out when you take it apart to adjust the trigger to "righteous". All it is, is, they come from the factory in "tort liability mode". :) Even my bottom of the line ADL adjusted to "real nice"...

Art

[clange]

clange, that matte finish oughta hold oil just real good! It oughta be less rust-prone than a regular blued barrel.
You'd think so. Trust me, i'm not liberal in applying oil to it (and it had it on it from day one).

[Art Eatman]

Hmmm. Interesting. I disremember the brand name, but there's some stuff the salt-water fishing guys use that's super in preventing rust. Spray can; I've seen it in gun stores.

Art

[hps1]

RustGuardit is a very durable rust preventive used in various marine applications. Not sure how it would be for this problem as it leaves quite heavy coating somewhat similar to cosmolene, but it works!

Might be able to thin it with gun oil to make it more user friendly on a firearm.

Regards,
hps

[GlocksRock]

No problems with my Rem. 700 in .270. I bought it used at a gun show, it came with a Vari X-II scope and a superb trigger job. I love it.

[SquirrelNuts]

I have a Rem 700 Classic in .30-06 that has a beautiful stock, great trigger, smooth action, and can outshoot me. I put a Leupold scope on it, and the whole combo looks beautiful. Everyone is always impressed with that rifle.

The only problem I have ever had with it is that the long action really is long. I have missed the cartridge three times while at the range (over several hundred shots). That was an operator error, not equipment error. I shoot .22 and .30-06, and the missed cartridges were right after the transition. I simply did not do my bolt work vigerously as Jeff Cooper says to!

I will continue to buy Remington products.

-SquirrelNuts

[Nero Steptoe]

The H-S Precision stocks that come on Remmy Varmint and "P" models do have aluminum bedding blocks, but they're not made of "plastic". There's no problem with the Remington safety, assuming that the trigger is properly set up.

BTW, how do you Winchester guys go about setting the engagement on your model 70's??