[bratch]

I'm really not intrigued by the rifle or the round but the fact that it is standard GI and that lots of LE agencies use them keeps pulling me in a little. Only because if one were to truely need it in a big SHTF parts, ammo, etc could be "borrowed" from many places.

Anybody else feel this way? Bought one because of this?

[Jmurman]

This is definately something to consider. I am turned off by the lack of lethality of the 5.56 round. I like the accuracy....I am at a cross roads on a decision between the M14 and AR.

Maybe a AR10?

[bratch]

Join the club.

I have about decided on my feature list for my "serious" rifles. My Cetme covers almost everything but one.

And yet the darned AR is still talking to me saying "everybody else is, the water is nice..."

[Harry Tuttle]

There are free US Govt. maintenance and utilization guides available for the AR rifle. Parts are readily aquired. Theres prolly a more than a few crates of 5.56 within 100 miles of most THRers.

Properly applied, 5.56 will make mutant zombies DRT.

[Jmurman]

Properly applied, 5.56 will make mutant zombies DRT.

The real question is this...what would you say the maximum terminal range for the 5.56 is, say out of the 20" barrel is? Not just putting holes in paper, but knocking down BG's?

[TexasRifleman]

More on this than you could ever want to know, and some surprising results....


http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

[GBTx01]

You also need to remember that the military is limited to Ball and Sierra Match Kings in their M16s. We as civilians have almost infinate choices everything from soft point (Hornady TAP) to Ballistic tip (60gr V-MAX) to SS109 green tip. I think that the Heavy TAP and V-MAX ammo would do a number on soft targets will the FMJ and SS109 will deal with soft armor.

[DMK]

the fact that it is standard GI and that lots of LE agencies use them keeps pulling me in a little. Only because if one were to truely need it in a big SHTF parts, ammo, etc could be "borrowed" from many places.
Also consider that aside from LEO and .mil use, the AR widely used as a varmint gun, and is "the" gun for competition these days. There are a few in every gun shop, there are a bunch of them in every town. Plenty of .223 or 5.56 ammo is available at your local Walmart or sporting goods store.

Aside from that, it's light, accurate, has practically no recoil and easy to shoot. You just have to use the rifle's advantages and respect it's limitations. It's a great gun for self defense out to 100-200 yards, to arm somebody with only minimal rifle training or to equip sombody with would have difficulty handing the heft and recoil of a .308. It's not a good gun for long distance work or to shoot through cover.

Maybe it's not your primary rifle, but the rifle and it's ammo are light and handy to carry. The 16" carbines are especially handy. Just keep it simple, most AR accessories are unnecessary for self defense. I wouldn't feel unarmed with an AR carbine, iron sights and 300 rounds of M193 in USGI mags.

[bytor94]

Of course you could always get two rifles. I have a 22 year old M1A and just thursday got my M4gery. The M4 is good because of the light weight and ease of deployment.

I'm considering it as my HD weapon due to the lessened penetration potential in a house vs large caliber handguns.

Besides, they are just fun to shoot. :evil:

[DMK]

The real question is this...what would you say the maximum terminal range for the 5.56 is, say out of the 20" barrel is? Not just putting holes in paper, but knocking down BG's?


Check out the charts on this page. Optimumly, with 55gr. M193 or M855 you're looking at around 100 yards, with 75gr-77gr Match HP, you're looking at around 200 yards with a 20" barrel (and 1/7 twist to stabilize the heavy bullets). This chart makes me favor the 20" barrel over the 16".

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=189353

[Warner]

For an bona-fide SHTF scenario, I can't too excited about being able to FIX an AR when the need arises (with those myriad of guns and parts, in and around my general geographic location). During really bad times and situations, the preponderance of MY excitement will come from knowing I won't have to deal with that weapon's faults, or its cartridge in my primary setup.

Bratch.......where there's smoke, there's fire. I'm going with the proven major caliber, and historically reliable stuff.

Stay "un-intrigued" bud. :)

[444]

"The real question is this...what would you say the maximum terminal range for the 5.56 is, say out of the 20" barrel is? Not just putting holes in paper, but knocking down BG's?"

I wouldn't say that is the real question: I have a couple questions that I think would be real questions before this one comes up.
First question: How far away can you realistically hit someone with whatever rifle or carbine you choose. This answer takes experience, and honesty. Experience because it isn't just a guess: you need to go out and see for yourself. And honesty to accept the result of that test.
Get a IDPA or IPSC silhouette target and place it at progressively farther ranges and see just how good you really are. Keep in mind that this isn't an exercise in benchrest shooting. This is to be done from practical field shooting postions. I suggest positions that don't use any kind of rest: simply because you can't count on always being able to use a rest.
Now, take these results and factor in stuff like, the target may be shooting back at you. His friends might be shooting back at you. He will probably be moving. You will probably be moving. You will probably not be on a flat, clean rifle range in nice weather. He will probably be wearing clothing that breaks up his outline. You probably won't be able to see his whole body. He will be using cover and concealment. You will not know the exact range to the target....................................................
Then take your honest answer and we can talk about what a realistic range might be.
Second, we can discuss what you envision you using the rifle for: personal defense ? Hunting ? Obviously, there arn't a whole lot of good legitimate reasons for shooting at someone at 800 yards for a civilian.
As part of the discussion of what you envision yourself using the rifle for, we can also try to pin down what percentage of the time you expect to use it for each of the various things. For example, should you tailor your choice of rifle for long range shooting if that might only be a remote possiblility, or should you tailor your choice of rifle primarily for what you antipate yourself using it for the most ?

[rbernie]

Only because if one were to truely need it in a big SHTF parts, ammo, etc could be "borrowed" from many places. This, to me, is why I bought a .223 bolt action. I get the ammo availability of 223/5.56x45 but in a package that more familiar and comfortable and affordable to me. I wanted to have access to the 'standard' NATO round, but not if it meant getting a non-sporting arm that cost more than anything else I have.

[Texas Gunman]

I wouldnt know where to start,alot of info has already been uncovered here in previous replies.

I've always been a .308 or large bore weapon shooter, just this past year I've read up on the 223/556 & decided to make it my primary SHTF rifle & carbin.

I alway thought of this caliber as a pea shooter,but its about bullet choice, also shot placement, even a wounded can prove to be more effective, it will take one or two people to carry this wounded person.

I love the M4 carbin,it is plenty accurate enough,but decided to also try my hands with a 20" heavy barrel

Im no expert on scopes,but wanted a decent varmint scope, that could also be used a s aspotting scope,so I went with a 6X24X42,Aimpoint on my carbin has served its purpose nicely.

Here a few old pix of my set up,have added a ARMS40 rear sight on the carbin,flip ups and kill flash on the scope since pix was taking.

Bushmaster 20" ,found out a mil-dot master works great with a little practice.
http://www.metrophotohost.com/gallery_0010/gallery_albums/XXX/20scoped.jpg



M4gery
http://www.metrophotohost.com/gallery_0010/gallery_albums/XXX/TG3.jpg


I sighted my rifles in , using SS109,use alot of wolf ammo for plinking and trigger time.

TG

[Jmurman]

For example, should you tailor your choice of rifle for long range shooting if that might only be a remote possiblility, or should you tailor your choice of rifle primarily for what you antipate yourself using it for the most ?

Excellent question.

[GBTx01]

One of the beautiful things about the AR15 is that it be changed very quickly from a CQB rifle to a Designated Marksman Rifle in about 60 seconds. I've got two AR's and they seem to compliment each other well. Where one begins to loose it's effectiveness the other steps in.
If you are in terrain that allows you to engage at extended range all the better I'd love to be able to get rid of the enemy prior to them getting me into their effective range.
The top rifle is a JP upper on Bushmaster lower w/ JP trigger topped with a IOR 2.5-10x40mm MP* scope, capable of keeping 1/2" groups at 100yds. The scope allows me to find and identify targets at longer ranges and in low light conditions. I can drop the scope down to 2.5x and do OK in a CQB environment.
The bottom rifle is my M4gery w/ EOTech. It shines in CQB work under 100yds but is capable of 4 hits out of 6 shoots on a IPSC target at 300yds firing as fast as I can reacquire the target.
If you hit a target at 400yds even if it isn't terminal you have definately slowed them down. Trigger control and shot placement go a long way.

[SapperLeader]

While the ability to find replacement parts for your gun isnt a bad thing, I cannot imagine a realistic scenario where you will be able to scrounge on the battlefield and do gunsmithing. I think it is far more important to pick a platform and caliber that makes you feel comfortable, and practice with the gun until it feels like an extension of your body.

I like the ar15, and am not crazy about the .223 round but will use it. The ar15 has inexpensive and plentiful magazines, numerous accessories and is low recoil while being easy to learn. Ammo is certainly cheap and plentiful and all these reasons make it a good choice, but its not the only choice. I feel as well armed with an ar as I do with my mosin m44 or another bolt action or semi rifle in my hands. Pick a gun, and learn with it dont worry about what the military or federal agencies are using.

[artherd]

Well, every CHP car here in CA is a GREAT source for spares, most carry M-16A2s (some with the auto sears replaced albit.)

If I had to grab a gun with a glow in the sky, it would be an AR. However, our fine state has decided we can only be trusted with the SU-16. At least it uses the same mags, and fires the same cartridge. :P.

[itgoesboom]

I think there are a lot of good reasons for getting a AR. Lightweight, accurate, low recoil, cheap ammo.

But parts and ammo in a SHTF scenerio?? Not one of them.

Really, if you end up finding a load of 5.56 ammo, there is probably a rifle attached to it. And if you need parts for a rifle, why not just take the entire rifle?

Buy whatever rifle you prefer to use, and practice with that. Use any opportunity to learn other rifles on the off chance that you have an opportunity to acquire one.

I.G.B.

[TheLastBoyScout]

Really, if you end up finding a load of 5.56 ammo, there is probably a rifle attached to it. And if you need parts for a rifle, why not just take the entire rifle?

Exactly. I like AR's, but if things got bad enough for me to be scavenging LEO or Military ammo/parts, there would be a whole lot of LEO/Military M16/M4s lying around anyways.

[g56]

I am turned off by the lack of lethality of the 5.56 round.
Most of the experts agree that the 5.56 NATO round is more lethal at short to medium range (300 meters or less) than the 7.62 NATO.

Dr Martin Fackler is the most respected expert in the field, and he recommends the 5.56 NATO.

[444]

g56, any attempt at dispensing factual advice from people that have first hand knowlege of anything are not welcome on the internet. The internet is reserved for BS and speculation.

[Lobotomy Boy]

Bratch, I've given your question much thought over the past couple of years, and I've decided to buy a DPMS Panther Lite. I also am not crazy about the .223 round (I plan to buy a 22-250 for a varmint gun), but I believe a person should have a variety of calibers available in a SHTF situation. It may be unrealistic to scavenge parts in a battlefield scenario, but I bet there will be a lot of ammo scavenging going on. If I need something stronger, I always have my .30-06 bolt action.

Using this same logic I plan to pick up a .308 (probably a BAR Lightweight that I will also use for deer hunting) and an AK 47. With that collection, I should have at least one gun capable of chambering any caliber of ammo I run across.

[Dave R]

Most of the experts agree that the 5.56 NATO round is more lethal at short to medium range (300 meters or less) than the 7.62 NATO.

That might be true for military ammo, but .308 hunting bullets will be FAR more lethal than any .223 bullets.

That's why, in many places, FMJ is illegal for hunting, and .223 is illegal for deer hunting.

[Kurt]

IMO, the only BS and speculation about which of our debated rounds will punch through things, and actually get their target (under realistic conditions) will come from the AR contingent.

[zougou]

I like my AR15s. Considering 444's questions, I would probably have to wait for the invader/zombie/terrorist to fall asleep, then whack him on the head with my AR considering my shooting skills. Does that count?

[RevDisk]

I like my AR15s. Considering 444's questions, I would probably have to wait for the invader/zombie/terrorist to fall asleep, then whack him on the head with my AR considering my shooting skills. Does that count?

Jokingly, I said the same thing when I was stuck with an M16 that had problems. "At this point, I plan on beating the bad guy with my M16 and take his AK"

[444]

"IMO, the only BS and speculation about which of our debated rounds will punch through things, and actually get their target (under realistic conditions) will come from the AR contingent."

So, I have to assume you have first hand experience to back this up ? Hands on examination of the wounds ?

" Considering 444's questions, I would probably have to wait for the invader/zombie/terrorist to fall asleep, then whack him on the head with my AR considering my shooting skills. "

Well, you can have any rifle in the world and if you can't hit something with it, it doesn't matter what it is. On every one of these threads people start talking about how the 5.56 is only designed to be effective out to _____ (you fill in the blank): I have seen numbers from 75 to 300 yards. This is considered a serious shotcoming and a good reason to choose a rifle of larger caliber. However, I have to wonder how many people can HONESTLY say that they not only have the skills good enough to reliably hit targets beyond ______ , but also have a good enough reason to do so that they should choose their rifle based on this criteria.
This doesn't mean one cartridge is better or worse than another: only a question about realistic long range rifle shooting and how realistic peoples expectations are.

[Lobotomy Boy]

I can get 2-3-inch groups at 200 yards with my .30-06 Tikka T3 and Nikon Monarch UCC 3-9x scope from a bench. Shooting at a moving deer while standing in a swamp, well, that's another story. If said deer was shooting back at me, forget about it. I'd probably be better off spraying and praying with a Mini 14 or an AK 47.

[Kurt]

“So, I have to assume you have first hand experience to back this up ? Hands on examination of the wounds ?”

444,

I detect two problems here.

First is a mania for first person evidence. I’ve always found this rather fun in college, in an eccentric sort of way. It drove the TA’s especially nuts.

Try this; How many of us would get the opportunity to actually visit the planet Venus, the Antarctic or even Hollywood in order to produce an acceptable treatise on any of them? Instead, most of us will do some research, sift out the chaff, and land somewhere fairly close to reality – no matter whose Royal ox is goosed in the process.

Terminal ballistics certainly isn’t out of reach for an application of these research principles, and good information utterly abounds from folks who HAVE been there. Such information will be entirely adequate for folks without a front-loaded, pet rifle and/or caliber agenda.

Secondly (and this may the whole enchilada here) is the practice of reading what is actually there. Whether you’re quoting someone :) ... or busy reading whatever it is you read about our beloved sport/science/discipline.

Simply put, if your chosen caliber can’t even make it through to your intended target, there will be NO wounds TO examine.

While I honor your opinion, I personally don’t wish to get any further off bratch’s original topic here.

:cool:

[SteelyDan]

Kurt, I respectfully detect one problem with your critique of 444's comments: You do not rebut or even address any of his remarks in a substantive manner. The guy's got a lot of experience with the round, probably on both ends of the trajectory, and while I don't always agree with him I always pay attention when he's talking about 5.56.

[Kurt]

Quote.....“Kurt, I respectfully detect one problem with your critique of 444's comments: You do not rebut or even address any of his remarks in a substantive manner. The guy's got a lot of experience with the round, probably on both ends of the trajectory, and while I don't always agree with him I always pay attention when he's talking about 5.56.”


Hi SteelyDan,

I read your comments, thanks!

I have not yet had the opportunity to become such a fan of 444, and his 5.56 posts. I guess I’ve just been too busy. Maybe soon.

In the post you address, I simply gave my response to 444’s two-sentence commentary about my quote. You're absolutely correct in pointing out that I didn’t rebut, or even address his other remarks in any substantive way. I’m sure that you can foresee the unwanted directions things would suddenly take off in IF we started a separate debate on this calibers material-bucking ability.

I don’t mean to be flip here, or even get into a pie-eating contest over our various individual experience levels. But I know from past conversations inside my sphere of influence, there are few (if any) enthusiastic supporters of this caliber around anymore. And frankly, it would be considered rather naïve for any individual to still be such.

Environments so darn often contain things that WILL completely impede a smaller, lighter bullet's effectiveness. Equally as often, anyperson's boogieman always seems to find (and embrace) these items when attempting to avoid detection.

For any individual who is free to choose, we believe that there are MUCH more effective choices out there for general-use applications, and we’d all be happier to find the 5.56 in the hands of any potential adversary, than in our own.

[Texas Gunman]

I've always been a large bore fan, I also use 44's Rugars and Rossie lever action in .44,also a Rolling block in 45/70.

For varmint shooting and SHTF situation it will be one of my AR15s,it is plenty accurate enough,nice selection of various ammo, it is light weight when totting alot of rounds,also mags are light and maintenance free.

Also 223/556 will usely be easier to come by if you happen to run short.

I like all guns & various calibers, just know the rifle itself and consider how your going to tote it all around with yea?

Wheel barrow want make it, youll have to tote it on your back.

TG

[migoi]

I can never figure out in these SHTF debates about platform/caliber is what SHTF scenario everyone is imagining.

Sometimes (often?) is sounds like folks are planning on the idea they will be opposing battle hardened, trained troops approaching in an environment which allows for 400+ yards of visibility. I'm of the opinion that my personal SHTF defense scenarios will happen at considerably closer ranges.

When I see the letters SHTF I envision having to defend my home/ family/ accumulated survival supplies from folks not as well prepared/ progressing under mob mentality and/or standing watch over my house that has been partially destroyed by a natural disaster.

In the scenarios I can realistically see myself being involved in the idea that I would ever have to shoot out past even 50 yards is difficult to imagine. Maybe some of you 400+ yard supporters can outline the scenarios you have in your head.

Thanks....

migoi

[Texas Gunman]

SHTF, wouldnt want to be caught in a house or anything that can be burned down.

Be like another Waco situation,better to be on the move or hold up on a hill or something,also not featured news bout lone gunmen that JBTs has been taking out one by one & label them as terrorists and evil militia. :scrutiny:

Only good thing bout shooting farther, my thinking is keeping them as far away as possible,to easily over runned with multiple invaders.

Have plenty ammo on hand. :D

Really,dont know what to expect. :confused:

TG

[Lobotomy Boy]

Interesting that Migoi is from Hawaii and Gunman is from Texas. You grow up with a lot of wide open space, you put a greater premium on long-range shooting. You grow up in the tight confines of a city, or in a heavily forested region, or on an island, you start thinking about close-quarter combat. Most likely our ideas of what will happen in an SHTF scenario are shaped by our surroundings, and what would work in the forests of Hawaii or cramped quarters of New York City won't work in the rolling hills or Texas or Montana. Frankly, in the event of an SHTF situation, I won't be heading to Hawaii or New York City anytime soon. Montana, maybe...

[Kurt]

Migoi, I wouldn’t make the mistake of considering major caliber cartridges ONLY a longer range application item.

Between two common choices (.223 and .308) the larger caliber will of course give you the longer-range performance you describe. However, it will ALSO punch through various obstacles commonly found out there such as vehicles, loveseats, backpacks, medium-to-heavy construction materials, heavy clothing, and most other items.

Not that most of us will be in a position to shoot through those types of items, but we ARE talking SHTF where even a minor injury to you or your loved ones could easily prove life-threatening.

I’d rather take my chances and be envisioned by the AR fans as some mad-man, working at emptying a full 20 round magazine of 7.62X51 at some partially hidden potential threat, than to let that threat ever come up for air and put US in sheep-dip.

If you start off with a major caliber weapon in your hands, any earthly threat to you and yours will find VERY few hiding places available to them. With a .223, your overall capabilities will be far, far less.

[migoi]

Lobotomy. I actually grew up in the hills of northwest Arkansas...I only live in Hawaii.

While Hawaii is not necessarily the place I would run to if the SHFT, it is where I currently live and where most of my defense oriented scenarios would likely take place. Having lived on isolating landforms (isthmuses and islands) for quite some time now I tend to forget there are other locales where the ability to reach out and touch someone at considerable distance could very realistically be a part of someone's necessary defense planning.

Thanks for pointing that out. In the final analysis...why not have both?

migoi

[trickyasafox]

okay going back to an earlier statement regarding wounding bg's. something i've never understood is people talk about rifle groups on paper, but single shot knock down on bg's? if i get a bg in the scope in a shtf situation, im putting 5 or 6 easy into center mass. ammo is cheap, im not gonna be afraid to use it. then again i could just be misinterpreting everyones statements, which would not particularly suprise me either :) :)

[Warner]

I don’t think it’s a matter of having enough ammo on hand for those five or six center mass shots trickasafox, and it sure wouldn’t ever be “easy”, especially under SHTF.

Assuming you’re justified in shooting, the problem for even one such follow-up, center mass shot lies in finding a totally unaware subject, and one who won’t react normally to taking your first hit. That’s about the only situation I can see that would allow you what you’ve described.

[Kurt]

Quote..... "...I tend to forget there are other locales where the ability to reach out and touch someone at considerable distance could very realistically be a part of someone's necessary defense planning."

I'd say that it would be good to cover as many bases as possible with your main rifle. Even with the best made plans, you never really know where you'll end up.

:)

[Mulliga]

Being standard issue is important, but not critical, as others have said.

To me, the AR has it all over the other commonly available semis in terms of ergonomics and accuracy.

If mobility is important, the AR wins there, too. Small ammo, light mags, small gun.

Penetration is important, but it's not like 5.56 FMJ doesn't pentrate at all. At 50 yards, it can easily cut through 1/4" mild steel plates - I don't think heavy clothing, a backpack, or a sofa would be much protection against a hail of AR-15 fire.

It's a carbine round, and that means compromise.

[Kurt]

QUOTE:
"Penetration is important, but it's not like 5.56 FMJ doesn't pentrate at all. At 50 yards, it can easily cut through 1/4" mild steel plates - I don't think heavy clothing, a backpack, or a sofa would be much protection against a hail of AR-15 fire."

The question that lingers for the 5.56 is to whether or not it will have anything of value AFTER it penetrates all the possible variables out there.

BTW...I have seen bullets a stopped completely and without exiting by the internal framing on padded furniture....but not from a whole hail! And it's certainly not something I would ever count on. :D

QUOTE:
"It's a carbine round, and that means compromise."

Amen.

But I seldom find that knowledge very widespread among (the more inexperienced) fans of the 5.56.

They got a lightweight, cool-looking, good-feeling RIFLE in their hands, car, safe or closet, and that's usually the extent of their interest in the whole matter.

:confused:

[seeker_two]

I'll lean more toward stocking my SHTF armory with guns that can take small game for survival (.22lr, .22mag, .410 shotgun) and guns that can take large game & give me some standoff range in a firefight (.308, .30-06, 7.62x54R)....

(To paraphrase Sam Elliott) If I need an AR-15/M4, there'll be plenty laying around to pick up.... :evil: