Questions about AOW\NFA laws


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HKUSP45C
December 27, 2004, 05:50 PM
I was looking to get a shortie shotgun. Couple of reasons for my decision not the least of which, I think they're neat. I checked Texas law and theyu do prohibit anything as short as I would like but, federal registry is a defense, I guess that means NFA rules apply.

Questions:
1. Do I still have to have the background check and wait 4-6 months to purchase?
2. I've heard, in Houston, if the above is affirmative I've got a better shot at Halle Barry than a CLEO signature. Anyone have anecdotal evidence supporting that sentiment or the contrary?
3. Do CIII FFLs charge the same for AOWs as they would for a FA rifle or subgun?
4. Are there 2 taxes for the exchange if out of state just like FA? (one from seller to CIII FFL and from my CIII to me?
5. in the unlikey and highly undesireable event I had to use said weapon in a legitamite shoot, what are the odds the fact it was an AOW going to color me poorly in the DAs eyes? and in the jury's eyes if he decided to pursue it?

Thanks in advance to any help you guys can offer. I poked around on Goolge but found nothing in concrete plain english.

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RevDisk
December 27, 2004, 06:04 PM
You could try writing to the Texas Attorney General and the BATFE. When you get a responce back, make notorized copies and keep them safe.

Hkmp5sd
December 27, 2004, 07:15 PM
1. Yep.

3. Machineguns sell for about $5,000+ and average about $10,000 for something like an M16. An AOW costs a few hundred dollars. The transfer tax on a machinegun is $200. The transfer tax on an AOW is $5.

4. There are not 2 taxes on any NFA weapon. The dealer does not pay a transfer tax to receive the gun and you pay a single transfer tax when purchasing it (unless it is a combination of NFA items).

5. Nope. Not as long as you have a legitimate use of deadly force.

If you are so inclined, you can manufacture an AOW or SBS yourself (or with the help of your local gunsmith). Instead of doing a Form 4 transfer, you submit a Form 1 to ATF. When approved, you can make the firearm.

HKUSP45C
December 27, 2004, 07:30 PM
3. Machineguns sell for about $5,000+ and average about $10,000 for something like an M16. An AOW costs a few hundred dollars. The transfer tax on a machinegun is $200. The transfer tax on an AOW is $5.

I was more concened with the price of the transfer that the FFLs charge as oppsed to the BATFE tax.

4. There are not 2 taxes on any NFA weapon. The dealer does not pay a transfer tax to receive the gun and you pay a single transfer tax when purchasing it (unless it is a combination of NFA items).

On out of state purchases, I've unerstood this is incorrect. If I'm wrong please show me where.

PMDW
December 27, 2004, 07:35 PM
On out of state purchases, I've unerstood this is incorrect. If I'm wrong please show me where.

No, you're correct. If the item is out of state, a tax must be paid for the transfer from the owner to the dealer in your state, and then another tax is paid for the transfer from the dealer to you. That is of course, unless the weapon is on Form 3. At $5 it's not a big deal. $200 each is upsetting, though. Sometimes the owner of the weapon will pay the first tax. Sometimes you have to. Depends on who you buy from.

Zrex
December 27, 2004, 09:12 PM
The person I am doing my mg transfer through charges 50 bucks for any NFA transfer whether suppressor, AOW, SBS, SBR, or MG.

As far as the CLEO signature, you can always form a LLC and bypass the photos, prints and signature.

Forming a Texas LLC is relatively easy. Keeping up with the franchise tax paperwork and other various forms can be a little trouble until you get used to it.

RRTX
December 27, 2004, 09:27 PM
If you find something you want that is listed on a Form 3 instead of 4, it is a tax free transfer to your Class 3 dealer. Another thing to remember is that there is a difference between an AOW shotgun and a Short Barreled Shotgun, someone correct me if i'm wrong but an AOW shotgun had to leave the factory with a short barrel and cannot have a stock (pistol grip only).

CleverNickname
December 27, 2004, 09:36 PM
1. Do I still have to have the background check and wait 4-6 months to purchase?

Yes. And the stupid thing is that after the dealer gets the form 4 returned and he can legally transfer the gun to you, you still have to fill out a Form 4473 and go through NICS.

2. I've heard, in Houston, if the above is affirmative I've got a better shot at Halle Barry than a CLEO signature. Anyone have anecdotal evidence supporting that sentiment or the contrary?

The Harris County Sheriff's Dept did a signoff for me in Aug. 2002 for my Uzi, but the Sheriff and my local PD both refused to do a signoff last year, so I just formed an LLC.

beerslurpy
December 27, 2004, 09:42 PM
Hey, clever, you dont happen to post to any other boards, do you?

Hkmp5sd
December 28, 2004, 06:48 AM
On out of state purchases, I've unerstood this is incorrect. If I'm wrong please show me where.
If you are buying from a private individual, there are two transfers to cross state lines. However, there is no transfer fee for dealer to dealer, so unless you are getting a good deal, especially on a SBS, why pay an extra tax? Just buy one from a dealer or make it yourself.

someone correct me if i'm wrong but an AOW shotgun had to leave the factory with a short barrel and cannot have a stock (pistol grip only).
An AOW shotgun is one that has never had a shoulder stock attached to the receiver. Length of barrel doesn't matter.

HKUSP45C
December 28, 2004, 03:28 PM
OK ... I've located the gun I want (thanks again THR), I found a link in another thread to SERBU and the super shorty http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm has anyone here dealt with them? They appear reputable but I'd like to here if anyone has any hangups about them.

Also, do I pay for the gun up front and then begin the paper work with the BATFE? Is there a time line I must follow as far as when everything must be completed and submitted?

Last questions then I'll leave you fine folks alone: Some suggested if I was having trouble getting CLEO ink to just form a corp. How does this work? I know the NFA provides a stipulation that corps can own otherwise restricted weapons and I as an officer of the corp can then take possesion. What happens if the corp. goes away? where does the firearm go? Can I keep it? If anyone has links to a quick rundown of the pros and cons I'd appreciate the help. How much work is the paperwork yearly and how much does it cost?

Again, thanks for the help.

Hkmp5sd
December 28, 2004, 05:43 PM
Paying for the gun is between you and the seller. I've bought them by paying beforehand, paying a deposit and not paying anything until the Form 4 came back approved. The only time line you need to follow is your approved Form 4 must come back before you take possession of the firearm.


Forming a corporation is fairly easy. Access Incorporation Services (http://www.accessincorp.com/corpfaq.htm) can set you up. For about $200 and $99/year, they can set you up in Delaware, which is the best state to form one, regardless of where you live. For the $99/yr fee, they fill out all necessary papers that are required to be filed each year. In Delaware, you don't have to pay any taxes, don't have to have a minimum amount of capital and you can be all of the corporation officers at once. Don't need to involve others. AIS handles all of the paperwork, so there is basically nothing for you to do.

Be aware that if you close the corporation, the firearm(s) must be transferred to some other entity, either yourself or another person or to a dealer. If at that time things change and you can get the CLEO, you will have to pay another transfer fee and do a Form 4 transfer from the corporation to yourself.

In addition, the CLEO is not limited to your local police chief or sheriff. The CLEO can be the local Police Chief, Sheriff, Head of State Police, Local or State DA/Prosecutor and "or such other persons whose certificate may in a particular case be acceptable to the Director."

This means the Director of ATF can authorize a person to sign in place of the normal CLEO. You can contact the Director and ask him to designate someone. Over the years, they have approved the local US Attorney, local US Marshals, local supervising FBI agents and local federal judges.

HKUSP45C
December 28, 2004, 06:04 PM
Hkmp5sd:
You're a veritable font of knowledge, thank you so much for the info. For a hundred bucks a year I may just do that instead of fussing with the CLEO req. then I can get all the NFA toys I want indefinately. Thanks, again.

Still was curious to hear from folks that have done business with the outfit I'm looking to buy from :)

Also ... what do you guys think of the "heater"? Looks like fun, and they make a holster .... hmmmmm Texas CCW with a 12 gauge hmmmmm

HKrazy
December 28, 2004, 06:13 PM
Yes. And the stupid thing is that after the dealer gets the form 4 returned and he can legally transfer the gun to you, you still have to fill out a Form 4473 and go through NICS.NICS is not required:
(P65) Is a NICS check required for the sale of firearms registered under the National Firearms Act (NFA)? [Back]

No, assuming all NFA requirements have been satisfied.
LINK (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#p65)

Zach S
December 28, 2004, 06:31 PM
Also ... what do you guys think of the "heater"? I've heard they're painful. Shotguns have enough recoil with a full stock IMO. I look at the super shorty like I look at Desert Eagles. Nice conversation peice, but if SHTF, its one of the last things I'd pick up. I'd rather have something a little more usable, like an internally supressed shorty AR in 9mm. Something like a Trinity Talon (http://www.gem-tech.com/TRINITY.html) upper from Gemtech, but even thinking about getting one is gonna be a while for me. Two stamps (supressor, SBR) for one carbine is kind of a turnoff as well, but I could probably deal with that if I had the money to build it, lol.

IIRC there was a thread on the super shorty a while back, and one or two members have one.

farscott
December 28, 2004, 06:32 PM
As someone who is jumping through the NFA hoops at the moment, a few things about the process.

1) It is best to wait until your local dealer has the item on a Form 3 before you submit your Form 4. Believe it or not, the paperwork can really get fouled up if there are two transfers pending on the same item. Usually manufacturer to dealer transfers take only a few weeks, but my most recent transfer took four months.

2) The Form 4 is completed in duplicate, and both copies need the CLEO signature. Two passport photos and two fingerprint cards are also part of the application.

3) The application is submitted to the BATF(E) with the transfer tax. Then the wait begins. Once the Form 4 is approved, the tax stamp comes back, and the dealer can transfer the item to you.

4) Once the item is yours, taking it interstate may require filing another form with the BATFE. This is Form 5320.20, and it is required for a short-barreled shotgun but not for an AOW.

CleverNickname
December 28, 2004, 06:57 PM
NICS is not required

Hrm, I learn something new every day. I'll have to point this out to the dealer next time I do a transfer. Both dealers I've used have made me fill out a 4473 for title II transfers.

Hkmp5sd
December 28, 2004, 07:02 PM
You do have to do the 4473, just not the instant background check.

HKUSP45C
December 28, 2004, 07:30 PM
I've heard they're painful. Shotguns have enough recoil with a full stock IMO. I look at the super shorty like I look at Desert Eagles. Nice conversation peice, but if SHTF, its one of the last things I'd pick up.

Do you think me daft? I want a toy not a tool. I got a Mossy 500 (modified slightly) for the old lady and my 45 for me for SHTF.

I'm not about to pick up a toy to keep us all above ground.

Harry Tuttle
December 28, 2004, 10:53 PM
Serbu makes a fine tool

they also host a nice NFA page:
http://www.serbu.com/nfainfo.htm

USP45usp
December 29, 2004, 12:06 AM
I've actually been checking the laws on this, from a western point of view and the 9th court.

If you go and have a shotgun shortened by a class III dealer, it is $200 since you have to pay a manufacturers and "importers" fee. Imports just don't mean from coast to coast, they can be used for state to state and even interstate. If you just buy the thing from Mossberg or any other place that it's direct from factory then it's $5.

Yet, the Ninth said that it's not interstate commerance so you can build a machine gun in your state, yeah, like the state laws will allow it.

Will it go against you in a court of law. Yes, open your eyes man, any time a gun is used it goes against you. The anti's make that clear and work on it to get innocent people convicted.

As for the thought, I have thought the same. I'm not a rich man but the shorty shotgun is within range. I wish to have a machine gun one day and how would that appear in the paper if I use that to defend myself. Maybe something like "Normal person decides that crank addict that had been shot muliple times but was still trying to kill home owner was killed with a machine gun".

And of course, the term "victim" would be used but for the crank addict and the home owner would be at fault.

Dude, if you want it and are able to do so, do so. Don't worry about what is going to happen in a court of law, you like guns, you own guns, you read gun magazines, they will use that against you whether you use a freakin bb gun or a M-16 fully auto. You are damned just for liking guns in the first place.

Wayne

Zach S
December 29, 2004, 02:30 AM
Do you think me daft? I want a toy not a tool. I got a Mossy 500 (modified slightly) for the old lady and my 45 for me for SHTF.

I'm not about to pick up a toy to keep us all above ground. Thats not what I was implying, sorry if it seemed like it. You asked for opinions on the heater, and that was mine.

HKUSP45C
December 29, 2004, 11:45 AM
Thats not what I was implying, sorry if it seemed like it. You asked for opinions on the heater, and that was mine.
Sorry maybe my response was a little over the top. I'll tone it down and I thank you for the opinion, which I asked for, and you gave.

Datan
January 2, 2005, 12:48 AM
I own a super shorty 12ga. Serbu (Mark) is fine to deal with.. I had a few questions and he was very responsive to my queries. Gun took ~2 months for my dealer to get once ordered as stated up front by Mark (of course I had to wait another ~4/5 months to have the atf-4 processed).

My experience: The weapon is well made. It is easy to shoot with Aguila mini shells, although it will not cycle the rounds properly (too short) so it's one at a time with them. 2 3/4" reduced recoil shells are fun to shoot as well. The recoil is quite manageable. I can shoot several standard load shells of buckshot or slugs before it becomes enough... and magnum loads - I've shot both slugs and 00 buckshot and I'll stop at 3 or 4 rounds.. Recoil is a personal thing. This gun is so much fun that the recoil doesn't matter to me. I'm still smiling when I've had enough. I've read from others that the gun's recoil is so awful that once fired there is no desire to do so again.. but these accounts seem to be second hand from someone that someone knows or experince shooting a differnet sbs. I'd buy this gun again and would go with the 12ga (vs. 20ga). My intent was home defense and I think it suits this purpose well.. short, maneuverable, and easy to retain. And then there is the coolness factor that I can't deny.

HKrazy
January 2, 2005, 01:02 AM
If you don't think using an NFA weapon for self defense can cause problems please read this Article (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685749).

ctdonath
January 2, 2005, 09:50 AM
My CLEO specifically admonished me to only use the AOW being signed for as a collectable piece, that he did not want to ever hear anything about it otherwise. While that does not legally preclude me from using it in self-defense, I expect doing so would (a) likely result in a ticked-off sheriff never signing an NFA form again (this was his first ever in 13 years as sheriff), and (b) may result in strings being pulled against me (say, my CCW license being pulled for no apparent reason, which is legal in NY).

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