[Dmack_901]

I, and I bet many of you would like it if that '86 machine gun ban thing was repealed, but I've got a few questions. Would the "pro-gun" community be able to pull together on this? I know that there are a lot of Class III dealers who would lose a ton of money if it were to happen. Those $15,000 mp5s they bought would then be worth $1,500, and they wouldn't like that. It would also be a very hard(well impossible) sell to the public. The Antis would have alot of ammo(although be it blanks) about how terrorists would buy them and go on rampages(like they couldn't allready).

Anyway, if we could, would you want to?

[beerslurpy]

Every NFA collector I talked to (and the local guys have hundreds of thousands invested in their collections, subguns, M2s, m16s, etc etc) said that they didnt care if it devalued their collection, they would love to have the ban repealed. They said they would borrow money to fill out their collection if it goes away.

And I wholeheartedly support it. I would go to the range a lot more if I had a couple of submachineguns. I would love a full auto krink, mini-uzi and maybe something belt fed as well. I have pretty much every other type of gun I want already.

[PMDW]

I just paid $5200 for a registered MG. Having it be worth $1,700 would be a small price to pay for being able to get an MG42 for $2,000 or a Thompson for $1200. $200 MACs would be nice, too.

[beerslurpy]

Exactly. There are so many awesome guns that are just plain not on the market at all right now or are priced so high that its impossible to get them.

Lets see:
FN P90
MP5 and all its cousins
Glock 18
M60, MG42, Vickers, M1919, etc (new manufacture is the only thing that will ever make these mostly sheetmetal (but rare) guns affordable again)
FN M249
M4 (tho I guess you could just combine an M4 upper with a funswitch lower)
Probably a billion others I forgot about.

Not to mention the relatively "affordable" uzi, mac and sten series of guns would go from multiple thousands down to a few hundred per gun. The transfer tax would be most of the cost of the gun actually.

Plus, NFA dealers will love the ban being lifted since it will actually let them sell more than half a dozen guns a year. Would you rather make 10 percent profit on a super expensive machine gun or 20 percent profit on a cheap one that you can sell 1000 of in a year?

[Zundfolge]

Only downside is that we would likely have to repeal the ENTIRE law ... and the main thrust of the law was to make it illegal for the fed.gov to maintain a list or "registry" of gun owners ... thats why the law was called the Firearms Owners Protection Act.

So we could end up with cheaper machine guns, but national gun registration ... in which case we'd be closer to having to use those machine guns :(

[Deavis]

MP5 and all its cousins
Glock 18

I believe we'd have to roll back the '68 GCA to get those babies. It was, someone correct me if I'm wrong, made illegal to import foreign machineguns for civillian use in 1968. That's why the only "real" MP-5s that you can get as a civilian (not sear conversions) are dealer samples. Of course you have to become a dealer to get a dealer sample and then drop it (assuming it is a pre-86 DS).

[beerslurpy]

No, the only import ban I am aware of is 89 which banned non-sporting importation. There were plenty of FALs coming into the country before 86. Not a lot (because no one saw the ban coming) but they were getting in.

I suspect sporting purposes will have to fall before 86 MG ban gets lifted. If the MG ban falls first, it will require local manufacture to get most of the cool guns. We especially wouldnt be able to get military surplus from other countries through that route.

Not to mention, sporting purposes is a much easier part of the law to get rid of politically. If most people agree guns are for self defense (40 out of 50 state legislatures cant be wrong), then obviously a "legal purposes other than self defense" test is bogus. The justifications for lifting the MG ban are more difficult to justify to a non-gun person. There are many angles of attack though, including attacking NFA directly, or by posing it as a revenue generation measure.

[AF_INT1N0]

Just trying to catch up here. So the 86' gunowners protection act kept the fed from creating a national registry, so where does the ban come into play? Was this an add on or what?

Any help for the slow guy??

[PMDW]

No, the only import ban I am aware of is 89 which banned non-sporting importation. There were plenty of FALs coming into the country before 86. Not a lot (because no one saw the ban coming) but they were getting in.

Nope. Gun Control Act of 1968 made all automatic weapons imported after 1968 dealer samples (that's why we have pre-may dealer samples, those were all imported after 1968). Any transferable FALs that were imported after that were semi-auto when imported, and converted later.

Just trying to catch up here. So the 86' gunowners protection act kept the fed from creating a national registry, so where does the ban come into play? Was this an add on or what?

Yes, it was jammed into the bill by an anti. Same way Feinstein killed the firearm manufacturer protection bill with the AWB renewal part.

[DMF]

Only downside is that we would likely have to repeal the ENTIRE law . . . Not true. Congress could easily pass new legislation amending that portion of the US Code, rather than repeal the whole law. Stuff like that happens all the time.

[Standing Wolf]

Anyway, if we could, would you want to?

Sure, although I doubt I'd buy a fully automatic firearm even if the prices suddenly became reasonable: I enjoy loading my own, but not that much.

[bogie]

Dear Mr. Bush,

Amending the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 to once again allow civilian manufacture and ownership of Class III weapons manufactured since the date of the act's enactment will encourate American ingenuity in arms development, and help us more strongly fight the war on terror. Criminals and terrorists don't jump through all these hoops - give us more ammunition to fight with!

Sincerely,

Bogie

[Zundfolge]

Not true. Congress could easily pass new legislation amending that portion of the US Code, rather than repeal the whole law. Stuff like that happens all the time.
You are correct ... I just worded that poorly. I was trying to say that the only way to get political support to repeal it would probably require making a "deal with the devil" (one of those anti devils like Feinstein) and getting rid of the "good parts" of the '86 FOPA as well as the bad.

[morganm01]

Yes.




DO it.

[jefnvk]

I, as an 18 yr old, would rather be able to go down to Wal-Mart and buy 9mm and .45, than to still have to wait another 3 years to even think about an NFA weapon.

But, yes, although it is not on the top of my list.

[River Wraith]

I think we should repeal both the 86 ban AND especially the 68 ban.

[Zundfolge]

I think we should repeal both the 86 ban AND especially the 68 ban.
AND the '34 NFA :D

[Wildalaska]

Sure, although I doubt I'd buy a fully automatic firearm even if the prices suddenly became reasonable: I enjoy loading my own, but not that much.

Something to be said for hitting something with one shot :)

WildzenAlaska

[Gifted]

Sure, although I doubt I'd buy a fully automatic firearm even if the prices suddenly became reasonable: I enjoy loading my own, but not that much. I'd get a "fun gun" in .22(cheap to feed), and a SHTF gun, in a reasonable caliber. That inspires a thread.

[Kharn]

Zundfolge:
Only downside is that we would likely have to repeal the ENTIRE law ... and the main thrust of the law was to make it illegal for the fed.gov to maintain a list or "registry" of gun owners ... thats why the law was called the Firearms Owners Protection Act.

So we could end up with cheaper machine guns, but national gun registration ... in which case we'd be closer to having to use those machine guns
Incorrect, the prohibition on national registration of owners was a seperate clause of the FOPA from the MG prohibition. The NFA is not a registration list, its a list of tax compliance, SBSs and SBRs must still be registered.
922(o) is the section we're looking at:
(o)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful
for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.
(2) This subsection does not apply with respect to -
(A) a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the
authority of, the United States or any department or agency
thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political
subdivision thereof; or
(B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun
that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes
effect.
The law outlawed the possession of all MGs, except for pre-86 ones.
All Congress and President Bush have to do is pass a law that says "Title 10, Section 922(o) is repealed." and we get cheap MGs (under the 1934/1968 rules), but the rest of the FOPA remains intact.

Kharn

[rdbrowning]

Wildalaska wrote "Something to be said for hitting something with one shot" and I totally agree. However, when I hear something go "bump in the night" I would love to be able to grab a H&K MP5SD and go check it out. :)

[Henry Bowman]

It's all in the spin. The current law prevents registration of MGs. When unregistered LEO MGs get stolen, evil things happen. The anti's love gun registration. Form a pro-rights group with an anti-rights sounding name (something like Machine Gun Safety Registration Committee) and work to pass a law REQUIRING registration of new machine guns. :evil:

[Zundfolge]

Kharn, both you and DMF have missed my point (which is frankly my fault as I worded it quite poorly).

I'm not talking about how the law works or is written, I'm talking about political viability.

In order to get rid of the machine gun ban that exists within the '86 FOPA, the antis and liberals would require a bit of quid pro quo ... they would only support the repeal of the entire '86 FOPA in order to get the machine gun ban overturned.

Of course if we can get the machinegun ban part of the '86 FOPA overturned without having to give up something else, then I say go for it ... I just don't see that happening (just look at what the libs did to the bill to prevent frivolous law suits against the gun industry...we'd either end up losing our protection against registration, or we'd get another AWB or some other bit of anti gun legislation)

[bogie]

I think we're far more likely to see something if it's done in terms of "homeland defense." Get something shoehorned into one of the megabills that gets passed...

Just repeal the nasties in '86... I don't mind paying the manufacturing tax - I wanna make my own Sten!

I just _love_ reading SGN or gunlist in the cafeteria at work... Folks will ask me if I can "just order a gun through the mail" with a horrified look on their face. That's when I get to explain to 'em that "yes, I can do that..." but that I also have to have it sent to a licensed dealer, and jump through all the other hoops... And that life's been this way since 1968...

[Kharn]

Zundfolge:
Why would the antis get quid pro quo? We control Congress and the White House, there's no need for compromise. We just need to get those that lean pro-gun to stand up for their beliefs, just like how the FOPA was originally passed.

Kharn

[bogie]

"Homeland Defense Research and Development Amendment."

[Zundfolge]

Why would the antis get quid pro quo? We control Congress and the White House, there's no need for compromise. We just need to get those that lean pro-gun to stand up for their beliefs, just like how the FOPA was originally passed.
Good luck with that :neener:

Republicans have a well documented history of giving into liberals and Democrats when they really didn't have to ... too many of them buy this stupid idea that if you're nice to liberals and Democrats they'll be nice back (our current President is one of these).

If Republicans decided to remove the MG ban, the media (controlled by libs and Dems) would wail and gnash their teeth so the Republicans would just give in ... its happened that way time and time again.
Call me a cynic, but I believe the Republican scuttling of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act is an anomaly ... many of us are amazed that the Republicans didn't just sign the darn thing with the AWB extension tacked on.

And if you look at the '86 FOPA, it has this MG ban in the first place ... not exactly Republicans standing up for their beliefs.


But hell, maybe I'm being too cynical and pessimistic ... maybe it could be done ... lets write our congresscritters and see what we can do :)

[nhhillbilly]

I would love to see a repel but don't see that happening anytime soon. But I do see that we can change the 1968 law allowing us to purchase any gun from an FFL in person no matter what the state you or the FFL is from. This should be a no brainer with the so--called instant check (brady check) that is computerized. Along with tort reform.

[rock jock]

I'm with Standing Wolf. I just can't see ever buying a MG even if they were more affordable.

[GigaBuist]

If Republicans decided to remove the MG ban, the media (controlled by libs and Dems) would wail and gnash their teeth

They did that already this year, remember? All that talk of AK-47's, Uzi's and Tec-9's covering our streets in blood? The anti-gun lobby already tried pulling out all the stops so what would they say this time around?

"No, really, REAL machine guns. Yeah, we were sorta lieing last time."

[schizrade]

Getting a little ahead of ourselves aren't we? How about start by repealing all of the AWB's that states have erected? Florida is next. How about nationwide CCW? Keep looking to ClassIII NFA and we may lose the regular stuff while our attention is diverted.

[BlkHawk73]

I doubt prices/value would drop to much. If the demand is there, they'll still command the higher prices. Ar's and the such didn't plummet in value when the AWB ended. Who's to say that manufactuers would even offer MG's for civilian sale. Good idea but we'll never see it happen.

[PMDW]

I doubt prices/value would drop to much. If the demand is there, they'll still command the higher prices. Ar's and the such didn't plummet in value when the AWB ended. Who's to say that manufactuers would even offer MG's for civilian sale. Good idea but we'll never see it happen

The prices would drop. No one is going to pay $11,000 for an M16 when they could buy an AR, pay the $200 tax, and convert it themselves. As for the civilian sale part, it doesn't matter who the manufacturer intends it to be for, because you buy from the dealer. Why pay loads of cash for old MGs when you could buy a brand new one for the same prices the police/dealers get them for?

[carpettbaggerr]

Push it to the liberals as a new tax on gunowners. It'd pass in a second. :evil:


Then gimme an American 180. :)

[beerslurpy]

Actually I dont think that the media outcry over the 86 ban would get much attention since most people think we already legalized machine guns in september. Its not like NFA items are ever used in crimes, so I dont think there is much risk of genuine bad publicity from dropping 922(o).

And its not like machine guns will suddenly become legal in CA or NY, since they are already illegal there on the state level. Actually, 99 percent of the places where people are likely to complain "oh noes machine guns" you can simply counter with "actually machine guns will still be illegal here" and you will be 100% correct. Swamp dwelling rednecks like myself are going to be the only people truly affected by a repeal of the ban and we WANT machine guns to be available so we can purchase them.

[GEM]

Just curious, if a law was passed that it was legal to own new manufacture full autos and import such for sale to regular folks but kept the $200 fee as a 'filter' to discourage bad folks from getting them, would you be ok with that?

I'm not saying I'm pro or con on this but suggesting it as a compromise that might work (yeah, right - never happen in any case, GWB would never move on it in any form).

I would for a Glock 18 or M4 for a fair price. Afterall, I just spend that much on a big family holiday dinner in an upscale restaurant and that's already down the chute so to speak. :rolleyes:

[Firethorn]

I'd support it, and if I was a Senator or Representative, I'd propose a bill too.

[Zundfolge]

Just curious, if a law was passed that it was legal to own new manufacture full autos and import such for sale to regular folks but kept the $200 fee as a 'filter' to discourage bad folks from getting them, would you be ok with that?

The $200 tax comes from the 1934 NFA, not the 1986 FOPA, so even if we get rid of the MG ban from '86, they would still be regulated under the NFA (and I don't ever see that one going away ... although at the current rate if inflation that $200 tax will seem like a $20 fee before I'm done on this earth :neener: ).


Check out what that $200 tax was like in 1934?
What cost $200 in 1934 would cost $2717.31 in 2003.

Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2003 and 1934,
they would cost you $200 and $14.72 respectively.
Source (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/)

[Sam Adams]

And if you look at the '86 FOPA, it has this MG ban in the first place ... not exactly Republicans standing up for their beliefs.

Actually, the MG ban was tacked on at the last moment by (IIRC) Richard Hughes (Demonrat, NJ). The FOPA was signed by Reagan because, apparently, no one in the WH knew about this, or at least if they did they didn't tell Ronnie. Reagan would probably not have signed it if he knew.

As for me, I'd love to see the MG ban repealed. I want a full-auto version of whatever rifle the Army and Marines are issuing to soldiers at any point in time (and the XM-8 is soon to be the M-8, replacing the M-4/M-16 family). I'd also like a Tommy Gun with the BFDM (big ___ drum magazine), a micro-Uzi, something full auto in .22LR and a few other nice toys - for a reasonable price. Right now, I can get these items, but it would probably set me back about $50,000 - no thanks, I simply can't afford it (and THIS, by the way, was EXACTLY the point of the MG ban in the first place).

[nonsense]

Id love to see the import ban(s), new MG ban and cop-killer ban lifted.

However to be politically viable, even with republican control of the federal government, gun owners would have to be willing to give something in return for any and/or all of the following.

Consider some sort of licensing, or additional regulations on things like ammuntion (ie 4473-ish forms for purchase) if we want it to stick. Would any of you be willing to pay the price?

That being said ive been dreaming of a P-90, a H&K PDW, Steyr TMP, a GMG and possibly an M3 for varying degrees of time. The bad thing would be that if the MG ban was repealed id sell one of my kidneys.

[Gifted]

How's about another "assault weapons ban" We include language that says that the code banning new MGs is removed, provided they're registered. We throw in some "assault" stuff to make the liberals happy and push it through. We take their words and throw them back. If they kill it because they didn't want new MGs, we politely point out the outcry at the end of the '94 ban, and that we were simply fixing the problem. They'll shut up and swallow it, because they'll get kicked for not requiring the registration of MGs. We might also redo the NFA to make the tax $50 instead of $200, and say that only Congress can make policy, BATFE only enforces it. Take away some of their bite.

I'm dreaming of course, but by taking advantage of the ingnorance of the masses and turning it against the libs, we could pull stuff like this off.

[Hkmp5sd]

It was, someone correct me if I'm wrong, made illegal to import foreign machineguns for civillian use in 1968. That's why the only "real" MP-5s that you can get as a civilian (not sear conversions) are dealer samples.
Commercial sales of the MP5 began in 1965. There are some transferrable "real" MP5s floating around.

[Bohemian]

I fully support the Repeal of the 1986 Machine Gun Ban (The Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA)) May 19, 1986

If there was ever a more blatant infringement of our 2nd amendment rights, the 1986 machine gun ban is it...

But its not going to happen if every gun owner, ccw permit carrier, etc., in America does not recognize these bans and 2nd amendment infringements as a stepping stone to total gun confiscation such as happened in the U.K.

As gun owners it is our duty to oppose all gun control legislation, and actively lobby for the repeal of all existing gun control measures and 2nd amendment infringements including but not limited to the Brady Bill(s) and Clinton Ban(s).
Again we must let our representatives in Washington and the NRA know that this is not a dead issue and that we will not rest until these 2nd amendment infringements are reversed! We must make a continued effort to write, email, fax, telephone our representatives in Washington and the NRA that we want these superfluous liberal anti-gun bills and bans repealed!

Beginning with Repealing 1986 Machine Gun Ban (The Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA)) May 19, 1986.

Judge Samuel Alito's dissent in U.S. v. Rybar, 103 F.3d 273 (3rd Cir. 1996), argued that federal restrictions on machine gun possession amounted to an unconstitutional exercise of Congressional power under the Commerce Clause. He hit it on the nail head my fellow citizens! We now finally have someone on the Supreme Court that is not a liberal...

The U.S. Supreme Court should in fact adopt Alito's dissent...
United States vs. Rybar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Rybar

Samuel Alito:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Alito

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA) 1986:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

And our representatives in Washington should repeal, with public pressure from every gun owner in America and the NRA and GOA amend and abolish the last minute liberal entry; preventing civilian manufacture and ownership of Class III weapons manufactured since the date of the act's enactment that was unconstitutional and is what we need amended, repealed etc., the rest of it is pretty good... this part of the May 19, 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act, does nothing more then create a market for illegal machine guns for the criminal element in this country much as the prohibition of alcohol once did...

Write, call, email, fax the media and our representatives in Washington and give them no peace until the May 19, 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act is abolished! Further let them know that Americans will no longer tolerate Washington and the Courts re-interpreting the Constitution to their liberal and special interest ends...

This constitutional infringement has to stop and previous infringements have to be reversed!

Here are a few links to get you started:
Write your representatives:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Sign online NFA Ban Petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/NFABAN2/petition.html

Read the unabridged 2nd amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Visit & support the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Visit Gun owners of America:
http://gunowners.org/

Visit U.S. Concealed Carry, The Ultimate Resource for the Armed Citizen:
http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

Read When Heroes are Outlawed; How Joel Myrick Saved Lives by Breaking the Law:
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/HeroesOutlawed.htm

Know where each and every candidate (for any office) is on the issues especially those with a Anti-Gun Agenda.

http://thinknewt.blogspot.com/2007/08/repeal-1986-machine-gun-ban.html

Semper Fidelis

[SoCalShooter]

I would love to see it repealed but my state would still have a ban since my state does not respect the feds at all.

[Bohemian]

SoCalShooter...

Yours is a good reason why those in the republic of kalifornia and the kill free zone of new york city need to continue to lobby for a nationwide preemption law that prevents states, counties, cities, municipalities, etc., from enacting more stringent gun control measures then at the national level...
Additionally, reverse those already on the books....

Write your representatives in Washington and the media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Semper Fidelis

[Gunnerpalace]

Be optimistic people, just saying "it will never happen" does not help. use the stats on crimes committed with NFA items (2 crimes) to KO the anti's, and the tax statement will win over a few Dem's. Oh, and the line for a Mini-gun starts behind me :D .

[Regolith]

Holy thread resurrection Batman.....



I think it'd be easier to challenge the constitutionality of the ban in court than it would be to get legislation passed that nixed the law. Even back in 2004, when this thread was started, it'd have been hard to do. Hopefully, SCOTUS will rule in our favor in the Heller case, and we'll be free to challenge the constitutionality of the ban after (and maybe of several other federal regulations as well).

[Ratzinger_p38]

This I hope will happen - but step by step. First goes the DC ban. Then Chi-town and its suburbs' bans. (it is true that complete bans like that are somewhat rare, except for AWBs) Then the state AWBs need to be attacked. Perhaps then the 'junk handgun' laws? (Or as you should really call them - "guns for poor people ban")
Even perhaps more important are the draconian permit process NYC and some of our territories have. Massachusetts is a sucky place to be a gun owner at for this reason. THEN, we attack the 86 ban.

Couple of points though - the import ban was if I am not mistaken, and executive order of GHWB's. How do you repeal that? I am not sure you can, which is why I dont like executive orders.

I have long awaited the lift of the MG ban. There are scores of M14s that would probably become very cheap (under 1000 dollars I bet, considering they would flood the market like combloc junk)

Beginning with Repealing 1986 Machine Gun Ban (The Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA)) May 19, 1986.

Bad, bad bad idea. Youd need to kill that PART of the law, which can be done. You do NOT want the rest of it repealed. It made a federal registry illegal if you recall. Some gun owners have short memories...keep in mind the mini SCOTUS (the DC court of appeals) said that a registry does not violate the 2A (as at one point, guns used in militia service were registered), so you'd open the floodgates.

[precisionshootist]

I think it'd be easier to challenge the constitutionality of the ban in court than it would be to get legislation passed that nixed the law.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!

The NRA and the pro-gun community in general are wasting way too much time and money trying to lobby and elect politicians to solve what in reality is a legal problem. We had both houses of congress and the presidency and accomplished exactly squat. The only gain was accomplished by an act of doing nothing and allowing the assault weapons ban to expire. We have the right to own machine guns, period! We should be using resources to continually push these issues in court and to put public pressure on SCOTUS with more of a demeanor that we are not asking but demanding these unconstitional laws be overturned. We are playing way to nice.

[Bohemian]

The part of the FOPA of 1986 that prevents civilian manufacture and ownership of Class III weapons manufactured since the date of the act's enactment was a last minute liberal entry that was unconstitutional and is what we need amended, repealed etc., the rest of it is pretty good...
E.G.:
Firearms Owners' Protection Act
(McClure-Volkmer Act) - Public Law 99-308
Amended the Gun Control Act of 1968 to repeal some of the sillier
provisions of that enactment, including the ban on transportation
of one's own firearms to another state (which had been a hassle
particularly for hunters), the record keeping requirement on the
sale of ammunition (which generated enormous quantities of useless
paper), the ban on interstate sales of long guns (which, then as
now, are infrequently used in crime); and limited the surprise
inspections of licensed gun dealers' premises to just once a year.
It also made it a federal offense, whether a Federally licensed
firearms dealer or not, to transfer or sell a gun to any individual
who is prohibited by the GCA '68 from owning guns, such as a felon.
In a peculiar procedural move, the House-passed version of this
NRA-backed legislation contained a ban on the possession and transfer
of new machineguns by civilians, which became effective when President
Reagan signed the Act into law, May 19, 1986. Machineguns which
were manufactured prior to that date are regulated under the National
Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot be sold
even to civilians who are already licensed to own machineguns.
The Senate approved the machinegun ban language of the House bill
without a roll call vote, though their original bill did not include
the ban amendment added in the House and sponsored by U.S. Rep. William
J. Hughes (D - N.J.). (The parliamentary shenanigans surrounding this
are quite strange, and are found in Congressional Record v.132 p.H1751
and p.S5358.) Essentially, at what was literally the last minute, the
acting chairman of the Committee of the Whole in the then-Democrat-run
House, New York congressman Charles Rangell, declared in a simple voice
vote that Rep. Hughes' "poison pill" amendment had been adopted, and
that the "ayes" had it. This ban has later been found unconstitutional
in the case of_U.S. v. Rock Island Armory_(Federal Supplement, v.773
p.117) but the decision was not appealed to the Supreme Court.

I seriously doubt Ronald Reagan would have signed the FOPA of 1986 if he had known about this last minute liberal underhandedness...

Start writing your representatives in Washington and the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

[yesit'sloaded]

Even from the point of view of a reasonable anti(possible oxymoron), I don't see how letting new ones be made could cause more crime if they are still regulated the same. It doesn't change the process to get one, it just lowers the price. Call it something like the "Minority and Low Income Self Protection Device Manufacturer Act". Because the NFA tax, registration, and background check don't change at all. I honestly don't mind registering a MG, that way the ATF knows who not to break into during the night.

[dogrunner]

It's my conviction that if relief's to be had it'l more than likely happen thru the courts. Parker is a real ray of sunshine on the horizon and hopefully once decided will provide the vehicle for further attacks on those elements of the '34/'68/fopa that truly infringe the 2nd.

I can see no credible deliverance from any other avenue. Even otherwise well respected political figures that have tried to pass favorable gun rights legislation have had utterly no success....And even tho I'm a Life NRA member the reality is that they are NOT going to jump on that controversial bandwagon............It may not make sense, but the truth is that perception is reality, and the hack job that'd be done via the left leaning liberal press would be very difficult, probably impossible to counter..........Can't you just see Time or Newsweek with an enlarged, smoking photo of an M/60 at Knob creek..........Played side by side with the maniacal photo's of that crazy bastard at Va. Tec......

Our one real hope is in our Judicial system.

[Bohemian]

The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed…
The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed…
The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed…

Get it?

I think what most gun owners, that are also hopefully registered voters that vote as well do not realize is the last minute entry onto the 1986 FOPA that prevents civilian manufacture and purchase of Class III Weapons made after effective date is an liberal assault on all gun owners and a stepping stone to total gun confiscation!
Moreover, a blatant, deliberate constitutional infringement of the 2nd Amendment…

Just because you think you may not ever be interested in purchasing a class III weapon does not mean you should fail to do your duty as a gun owner and an American citizen to support the 2nd amendment and oppose any and all infringements thereof…

There are literally millions of gun owners in the U.S., which is why politicians either fear or respect the NRA, GOA and most organized gun owner groups…

No other demographic in the U.S. has a greater ability to influence policy then the law abiding gun owner groups in America…

This shameful amendment to the 1986 FOPA got through because the majority of gun owners did not know about it or did not step up to the plate because they figured if it does not affect me and my Glock, who cares…

Read & support the Unabridged Second Amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Write your representatives in Washington and the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Sign online NFA Ban Petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/NFABAN2/petition.html

Visit & support the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Join the Fight to Save American Jobs and homeland security!:
http://numbersusa.com/index

[TEDDY]

some of you still dont get it ::the 1934 law is based on the commerce clause.that commerce can be taxed.in 1934 gun owners agread to the tax to prevent a ban on pistols that probable would not have gone thru.the laws are so muddled now that I dont think any one knows whats going on.
one should note what is being taught in schools as to the future thinking of the people.:banghead:---:banghead:---:banghead:

[alligator94]

Bad, bad bad idea. Youd need to kill that PART of the law, which can be done. You do NOT want the rest of it repealed. It made a federal registry illegal if you recall. Does anyone here really believe that there is no current federal database?? I mean with the Miami shooter, they told everyone exactly what he bought the same day of the shootings.

[Gunnerpalace]

I have no doubt in my mind the ATF has a registry right now, and I don't have a tin foil hat either.

[Ratzinger_p38]

I have no doubt in my mind the ATF has a registry right now, and I don't have a tin foil hat either.

Yeah but it is not a 'true' database where they can type in your name and look and see what you have. Im sure much of it is based on outdated 1074s from retiring FFLs, which of course works out to be a de-facto database. Be nice if someone challenged the practice in court, but I wouldnt hold my breath.

[broadsideofabarn]

Does anybody really see this happening though? I can't see it as even a remote legislative possibility. Maybe if you made it a state's right issue before SCOTUS, some places who actually trust their law-abiding citizenry would surely allow full auto. But you'd never see congress take such a stand. For the senate especially, a better-armed citizenry just makes their precious plutocratic police state more precarious.

Though if California wins their medical marijuana case before SCOTUS, I can certainly see a challenge to the MG ban on the same grounds.

Mmm... PPS-43. *drools*

[RyanM]

I wish someone would make a video demonstrating how ineffective full-auto fire is. Set up 5 silhouette targets at 15 yards, with a very large, long roll of paper behind them so that misses can be spotted. Do timed fire, 5 seconds. First with a bolt-action rifle or something, and shoot each one in the head. Take the camera up, show off the holes in each silhoutte's head, etc. Then either patch the holes or replace the targets.

Then for the second one, just wildly spray rounds in the targets' general direction with a machine gun, "sweeping" back and forth just like in the movies. Take the camera up, and see how many "lethal" hits you got compared to 5 aimed head shots. "Got this guy in the arm... this one got the crap scared out of him but is fine other than that... this guy got hit in both legs..." etc.

Get enough hits on Youtube, and you could change the opinion of a not insubstantial portion of the population.

Don't use a semi-auto for the first part, though. That'd just lead some non-gun people to the wrong conclusion, that semi-autos need to be banned as well. But anyone who would want to ban bolt action rifle is already too far gone.

[Gunnerpalace]

It will come up eventually as I said be optimistic, RKBA shall not be infringed, And who here would agree with me that the ATF has all our names in a computer?

[6_gunner]

I would love to see it happen and I would do anything within my powers to help.
However, it would take a massive campaign just to re-educate the brainwashed public that full auto guns aren't inherently evil. Heck, a lot of people, even a lot of supposedly pro-gun people don't even think we should have military-style semi autos. If somebody tried to repeal the machine gun ban now, there would be a public outcry of indignation like nothing we've ever seen before.
But I refuse to give up. I think we should all do more to educate people about firearms instead of letting them believe the bull they hear on TV. That's gotta be the first step.

[ozwyn]

this is a great thread to bring back from the dead. It shows just how little gun owners have recieved as return on investment for our votes on the national level.

A fairly low budget lawsuit is getting better potential for results than million of votes, because promises are not kept.

[Ratzinger_p38]

It will come up eventually as I said be optimistic, RKBA shall not be infringed, And who here would agree with me that the ATF has all our names in a computer?

Might want to adjust your tin hat a little there. How is it most names get in the computer? FFL records. When does the ATF get said 1074s? Almost all of them upon retirement of an FFL.

[Bohemian]

I think daily education of our peers in the gun community, about the FOPA/NFA 2nd Amendment infringements, is a great suggestion as word of mouth is generally the fastest way to get a particular topic or concern around.

I also still believe that if all of us card carrying members of the NRA, GOA, SAF and CCW holders start getting back on their butt about it, then perhaps we can build a fire under their butt-in-ski’s and build some momentum towards this much needed amendment...

Additionally, writing, emailing, faxing and telephoning our representatives in Washington is always a good idea...
Further, we have the presidential elections coming up, campaigning well underway and many of our other representatives are coming up for election/re-election in the next one-two years...

We need to let them know that there are more issues then the war on terror and securing our borders, although I support both; but not at the expense of continued disregard for the 2nd amendment and the FOPA/NFA of 1986 that needs amended...
The best time to get something changed is when somebody is up for election/re-election that already carries some weight in Washington…

I do not want to end up in the same boat as those in the U.K. ...

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

General Guide to Class III Weapons:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html

Read the Unabridged Second Amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Sign online FOPA/NFA Ban Petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/NFABAN2/petition.html

Visit the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

GOA - Visit the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Join the Fight to Save American Jobs and homeland security!:
http://numbersusa.com/index

SAF - Second Amendment Foundation:
http://saf.org/

Semper Fidelis

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I wouldn't buy a fully auto because I don't want to blow that much ammo, but I fully support the right of people to own them.

What I would like to see repealed, is the import/sale bans on SBRs. I would love to have a true M4/AR-15 carbine as well as a UMP-45 or MP-5, even if they were only semi-auto.

[Bohemian]

You hit the point on the nail head my fellow free-thinking American…

Although, a full-auto weapon is not your cup of tea; you support & recognize the inalienable constitutional right of others to own them!

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Without this amendment, all others are meaningless. This amendment is a guarantee to the people of the United States of America that the right to keep and bear arms can not, shall not, nor will not be infringed upon.

To infringe upon - by definition - is the attempt to limit the right of:

* legal or moral entitlement to do - or refrain from doing - some thing;
* legal or moral entitlement to obtain - or refrain from obtaining - an action, thing or recognition in civil society. In the Second Amendment, the entitlement is the right to the action(s) of keeping and bearing a thing called arms by the people.

What this means is, the people, who in times of need may form a militia, have the inalienable right to keep and bear arms without fear of such right being vacated. In order to be an effective militia - an integral part of a free society - the people should be armed in equal or greater proportion than any potential threat - foreign or domestic - and trained to use such armament. Additionally, the un-infringed right of the people to keep and bear arms is the most powerful deterrent to tyranny.

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Write GOA - the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Write the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Write the NRA News:
http://www.nranews.com/

Semper Fidelis

[Bohemian]

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops…" Noah Webster, "An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution" (1787) in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888)

Semper Fidelis

[I LIKE IT!]

LOL

That will happen when group X decides enough is enough and split from the Union. Call me crazy but that won't happen until they come knockin but by then it'll be too late.

I'd love to get it repealed but seriously, in this America, in this day and age is nothing more than a sad joke.:banghead:

[Bohemian]

My challenge:

Everybody whom reads this thread and believes this particular part of the FOPA/NFA of 1986 to be a 2nd amendment infringement; follow the links below and write each and every one of your representatives; and a letter to each of the major media networks in your area; just a paragraph or two and as clearly and concisely as possible state why you think the FOPA/NFA of 1986 is a 2nd amendment infringement and how you feel it should be amended etc.

The links below all but do the typing for you; so you have no excuse; you do not need a stamp; if you feel this particular part of the FOPA/NFA of 1986 to be a 2nd amendment infringement; you must do something about it! Don’t be a pessimist!

This is how the liberal left keeps kicking our ass! they are persistent!

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Once you have wrote the media and your representatives in Washington; write a brief paragraph to the GOA, SAF and the NRA and let them know they are letting us down on this issue!

Write GOA - the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Second Amendment Foundation:
http://saf.org/

Write the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Write the NRA News:
http://www.nranews.com/

The last thing I ask is that you convince at least one fellow gun owner a week to do the same; and ask them to do so also; this is not a huge task and it does not take a math major to figure in a short period of time; what a following this movement will get and what a difference it will make…

We all know too many Americans are A.D.D. when it comes to the news; they only pay attention to what they heard today or this week; America needs to be reminded that the FOPA/NFA of 1986 has to be Amended!

Semper Fidelis

[precisionshootist]

Everybody whom reads this thread and believes this particular part of the FOPA/NFA of 1986 to be a 2nd amendment infringement; follow the links below and write each and every one of your representatives; and a letter to each of the major media networks in your area; just a paragraph or two and as clearly and concisely as possible state why you think the FOPA/NFA of 1986 is a 2nd amendment infringement and how you feel it should be amended etc.


I don't want to discourage your effort but you are talking about writing representatives asking them to take action so we the people can own machine guns! right. IMO you might as well send a letter into outer space.

Writing Major media networks. Now that's just silly.


IMO the only chance we have of winning with this issue is through the courts. Any lawmaker trying to legislate legal machine guns would be branded a nutjob by his peers and the media. No politician is going to touch this.

[Bohemian]

Would a politician or member of the media would be called a Nut Job for standing up for a clear and concise 2nd amendment infringement?

Maybe by the liberal left or a pessimist...

With all due respect, the issue is whether Congress, other division, office, etc., of our government or any other lawmaker can infringe upon our right to keep and bear arms by issuing a ban on the ownership of any class of weapon by a law-abiding citizen of the United States... NO THEY CANNOT

A machine gun and any other class of weapon is protected by the 2nd Amendment...

The 2nd Amendment was one of many rights that the original drafter of the Constitution; Thomas Jefferson felt was needed to adequately protect the
inalienable rights of the citizens of the United States. Moreover, why he and our founding fathers added it to begin with...

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed...

If you believe this, then you as a citizen must support and encourage the Amendment/Repeal of the last minute entry onto the 1986 FOPA/NFA that prevents civilian manufacture and purchase of Class III Weapons made after the effective date.
Read this full thread, particularly #50; to see how deceivingly this was sneaked onto the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. This is how the liberal left work; they do not face gun owners head on because they always lose...

Moreover, wake up and recognize it for what it is: A liberal assault on all gun owners, all classes of firearms and a stepping stone to total gun confiscation!

Look at the history of gun bans and now total confiscation in Europe and the U.K. in the last 75 years...

Don't be a pessimist...

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Write GOA - the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Write the Second Amendment Foundation:
http://saf.org/

Write the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Write the NRA News:
http://www.nranews.com/

Read The Unabridged Second Amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Semper Fidelis

[Gunnerpalace]

You hit it right on the head Bohemian, Parker is the first step in winning our constitutional, God-given freedoms back.

[ready4shtf]

Well, dont forget, even if its repealed, prices arent going to fall very much in the first several years.

There is still supply and demand, and most of these firearms are out of production. It will take a while to make more. Dont count on getting a SAW or anything like that for several years, if ever.

Conversions would pop up everywhere, but not alot of factory machine guns aside from the M16 platform.

[Bohemian]

The U.S. Supreme Court on Right To Keep And Bear Arms
In U.S. vs. Verdugo-Urquidez, the U.S. Supreme Court observed, "The Second Amendment protects ‘the right of the people to keep and bear Arms.`"

U.S. vs. Verdugo-Urquidez (1990)
The Supreme Court observed in U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez (1990) "`the people` seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is ordained and established by `the People of the United States.` The Second Amendment protects `the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,` and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments provide that certain rights and powers are retained by and reserved to `the people.`"

Appeals Court Strikes Down Washington, D.C. Handgun Ban
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258067,00.html
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=3226

Read the United States Court of Appeals Opinion on Parker vs. District of Columbia and Mayor of D.C.:
http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200703/04-7041a.pdf

But why do I care about the D.C. gun ban? Simple, this decision is now a decision that can be used in ANY state court action. While binding only in the District of Columbia, the Parker decision is quite persuasive and will be of use in the year or two that it takes to reach the SCOTUS. Most state courts will be bound by their own federal court interpretations for the near term, but Parker offers light at the end of the tunnel. The most critical factor of the Parker decision is that the court found the Second Amendment is just like any other right, and must be judged the same as the other rights, such as the First Amendment rights. This increased level of scrutiny is a nightmare for gun banners – they must now defend gun bans by demonstrating that there is a compelling state interest and the gun ban law clearly addresses that state interest. This is called “strict scrutiny” and it is used in cases involving a fundamental right, unlike the easier to satisfy “rationale basis” scrutiny...
read the rest at:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3591.html

Remember that the Media and our representatives in Washington respond to public demand and can indirectly aid in keeping liberal anti-gun judges and other lawmakers in line...

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Write GOA - the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Write the Second Amendment Foundation:
http://saf.org/

Write the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Write the NRA News:
http://www.nranews.com/

Read The Unabridged Second Amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Semper Fidelis

[woad_yurt]

MGs were banned in 1986? My friend is driving an illegal car all of these years?

[precisionshootist]

Would a politician or member of the media would be called a Nut Job for standing up for a clear and concise 2nd amendment infringement?

When it pertains to machine guns. Yes they would.

[Bohemian]

precisionshootist...

I respectfully disagree...

Which is still a constitutional right that has yet to be as infringed upon as the 2nd Amendment has been...

It is imperative to recognize the ban of any classification of weapon as a stepping stone to total confiscation! Which is exactly how they did it in the U.K. , Canada and many parts of Europe...

They started with the full autos, then the semi-autos and so on... and now they are gone...

We must stop being pessimists about the media and politicians and the power of the people!
speak out before it is too late!
Write your politicians and the media and encourage others to do the same when you network, have family gatherings etc...

The government has no power over the people, but that which we give them... Newt Gingrich

The Clinton semi-auto ban went away because the liberal nut jobs out to infringe upon our 2nd amendment were found to have no factual basis on any of their supporting arguments that they used to get the stinking Clinton Assault Weapon Ban to begin with...

The Class three ban was always shot down by the major media and the majority pro-gun politicians, publicly for decades before 1986; it exists today because it was slipped in under the disguise of something pro-gun and almost no pro-gun politician knew about until it was signed by Ronald Reagan who most certainly did not know about it as he vowed to veto any such thing and Ronnie always kept his word.

Every argument the left has for opposing class three weapons is the same tired ass arguments they had for the stinking Slick-Willie Clinton Assault Weapons ban that has thankfully gone away...

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed!
Period, this is not negotiable, any gun ban bar none is a infringement...

If we do nothing, we have already lost... George Washington

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Write GOA - the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Write the Second Amendment Foundation:
http://saf.org/

Write the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Write the NRA News:
http://www.nranews.com/

Read The Unabridged Second Amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Semper Fidelis

[precisionshootist]

It is imperative to recognize the ban of any classification of weapon as a stepping stone to total confiscation! Which is exactly how they did it in the U.K. , Canada and many parts of Europe...

They started with the full autos, then the semi-autos and so on... and now they are gone...



I agree, it’s a stepping stone to total confiscation. The problem is this stone was stepped on more than twenty years ago. The stones today are hi capacity magazines, semi-auto firearms of any type, 50 cal rifles or any rifle with similar power etc. etc. We are barely hanging on to magazines of over 10 rounds for any weapon and some states still can’t have them. The Democrats (mostly extreme leftists) that currently control both houses of congress don’t care about your gun rights. In fact they will take every chance they get to disarm you completely. Expecting this group of leftist degenerates to give power back to the people is pure fantasy. They can’t be reasoned with, they must be defeated. We will need to either clean house in congress or win in the courts to get back the right to own machine guns.

[Bohemian]

We can not be pessimists and defeatists...

If we do nothing, we have already lost... George Washington

I do believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do nothing. So, with all the creative energy at our command, let us begin an era of national renewal. Let us renew our determination, our courage, and our strength. And let us renew; our faith and our hope... Ronald Reagan

I have seen the rise and fall of Nazi tyranny, the subsequent cold war and the nuclear nightmare that for fifty years haunted the dreams of children everywhere. During that time my generation defeated totalitarianism. As a result, your world is poised for better tomorrows. What will you do on your journey?" ... Ronald Reagan

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ... Patrick Henry

If we do nothing we will only be able to say that we did nothing.

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Write GOA - the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Write the Second Amendment Foundation:
http://saf.org/

Write the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Write the NRA News:
http://www.nranews.com/

Read The Unabridged Second Amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Semper Fidelis

[xd9fan]

seriously....than vote for Ron Paul (who else has the constitutional balls) to do it.......Rudy:banghead:?

[Bohemian]

Yes Ron Paul known as Dr. NO to his peers in Congress would be great if we only considered his 100% pro-gun record; but he comes off a little radical when he talks about sequestering the United States from the rest of the world...

The only other 100% pro-gun record candidate is Mike Huckabee...
And his positions and track record on the other issue are excellent as well...

Mike Huckabee is a dark-horse candidate well worth considering; and one I am supporting in 2008...

Mike Huckabee:
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/

As has been demonstrated several times this year alone, our Senators and Congressman democrat and republican alike tend to change their anti-constitution ways when their switch boards shut down, mail boxes, fax machines and post office boxes fill up with constituent concerns over the same issue(s)...

If we do nothing we will only be able to say that we did nothing.

Write your representatives in Washington:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials/

Write the Media:
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/media/

Write GOA - the Gun Owners of America:
http://www.gunowners.org/

Write the Second Amendment Foundation:
http://saf.org/

Write the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action:
http://www.nraila.org/

Write the NRA News:
http://www.nranews.com/

Read The Unabridged Second Amendment:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Don't forget to register to vote in time to vote in the primaries...

They are way early this election; mine in Nevada are January 19th, 2008...

Semper Fidelis

[JeffKnox]

This is an old thread, but an important subject.
The Firearms Coalition is actively working to assemble the blocks necessarily to effect repeal of this onerous law. The SCOTUS decision on Heller might open the door to a judicial remedy, but tackling it in the legislative arena has merit too.
As we gear up our efforts, we want to be sure that we are cooperating with and complimenting any other efforts in the same direction, so if you know of any organization that is actively pursuing the repeal of the '86 Machinegun Ban, please let me know about them. I'm also interested in any organization or club that might be interested in joining with us in this effort.
If you, your friends, your clubs, or other groups would like to participate in our endeavor, I invite you to join our coalition. You can learn more about us by going to www.FirearmsCoalition.org
I hope to hear from you and I hope you'll look forward to hearing more from me.
Jeff Knox
Director, The Firearms Coalition

[Bohemian]

Please take the time to review the original post, and subsequent posts in this thread and remain
vigilant about not letting this issue or this thread go unnoticed...

Please take the suggested actions and any others of your own you may have, and encourage your fellow gun owners, peers, friends, family, neighbors etc., to do the same...

Its long over due for repeal/amending and the NRA has FAILED MISERABLY in their PROMISE to pursue this until it is repealed/amended...
AND we must remind them frequently of their BROKEN PROMISE to their members and America.

A related thread worth visiting and participating in on another forum is:
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/2nd-amendment-issues/253-amend-repeal-class-iii-ban-stepping-stone-total-gun-confiscation.html

AND as much as it is like taking cod liver oil, we must vote for McCain in November...

Best Regards.

[brighamr]

If the MG ban was lifted, think of how our economy would be stimulated? Seriously, I wont spend $20k right now on an NFA item because it's one item. I would spend $20k if i could get several select fire items. I'm sure there are others in the same boat.

Also, if the MG ban were lifted, how many of the semi-auto AR15 companies would turn overnight into a class III manufacturer? A lot of people would make money, I think it's a win-win!

[Bohemian]

Right now a pre-86 class III transferable MG say a m-16 will run around $20,000.00 Twenty Thousand Dollars

If you are a law enforcement officer, military or applicable FFL holder, you can buy a post 86 MG m-16/m4 for about $2,000.00 Two Thousand Dollars

If we do nothing, we can only say we did nothing...

[Blackbeard]

You might be able to sell it to some fence-sitters as a "machine gun registration act" that reopens the NFA registry. Some stupid antis might even think it's a victory for gun control.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'd rather have an SBR. With ammo prices, and all other prices, where they are now, full auto is just a waste.

[Glockman17366]

I'd rather have an SBR. With ammo prices, and all other prices, where they are now, full auto is just a waste.

That's not the point...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

/waiting for you to point out in my post where I said it was.

[Gunnerpalace]

full auto is just a waste.

To each his own, but support us, I"ll even invite the Michigan THR's out for a shoot when I get my M134, I want this law GONE.

[PTK]

A MG can be a SBR, an SBR can't be an MG. Why pay $200 without being able to get the switch? No one says you have to leave it on "FA", you can shoot SA. It's the same $200 either way, or rather it would be with 922(o) gone. :)

[Geno]

How about we repeal land-application of Admiralty Law first...you know, the gold fringe on the "flag". According to my students, if we nail Admiralty Law first, by default, all other subsequent, land-based misapplications thereof are eradicated, and as a result, the Constitution and Bill of Rights return as the standard for the land in the USA.

I have several students who speak of this frequently. I have often pondered to what extent their arguments ring true.

<<Danged black helicopters>>

[PTK]

Doc

I honestly don't know what that might be. Links/details?

[BullpupBen]

As much as I would like to own a full-auto NFA without selling the clothes off my back, there are far more important things.

First of all full-auto isn't that great and in no way would it come CLOSE to balancing out the damage to the Second Amendment created by a Federal gun registry.

If we aren't talking about repealing the entire '86 law then it is a tough selling point, and I think far more could be gained from trying to repeal the NFA tax on SBR's, after all uneducated anti's really aren't going to see those as nearly as menacing as machine guns.

Also with all this effort we could be putting into a probably fruitless swipe at federal law, we could instead by trying to repeal anti-gun laws on the state level, such as the "assault weapons" ban over here in CT:cuss:

[Regen]

when I hear something go "bump in the night" I would love to be able to grab a H&K MP5SD

Yeah, the MP5SD, you don't want do wake up people just because you have to fire your gun at a home invader :)

And yes, I realize it is more about not going deaf during a self defense shooting, but really, MP5 for "bump in the night"? Don't you know, 9mm won't stop any criminals, you need a .45 at least for that ? :)

[H088]

Whats so bad about a potential federal gun registry? I would rather have registration then bannings of fire-arms, especially if most of the federal bans would be removed.

[Gunnerpalace]

Also with all this effort we could be putting into a probably fruitless swipe at federal law, we could instead by trying to repeal anti-gun laws on the state level, such as the "assault weapons" ban over here in CT

It's only fruitless if you don't want to try.

Whats so bad about a potential federal gun registry?

Prepare for a firestorm.

If we aren't talking about repealing the entire '86 law

Yes, I want the whole FOPA junked, it needs to be entirely rewritten and have 922o burned right out.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

Whats so bad about a potential federal gun registry? I would rather have registration then bannings of fire-arms, especially if most of the federal bans would be removed.
Machine guns have been registered since 1934, they just closed down the registry in 1986, so no new machine guns can be registered, the result is that many pre-'86 MGs cost more than a new car. Whether or not the "ban" is lifted, there will still be registration. As for registering of all firearms to ward off bans, that's appeasement, and history shows us it doesn't work out so well. I bet UK gun owners wish they would have kept that can 'o worms shut.

As for getting the registry open, the ban does appear to be superficially similar to the DC handgun ban, and wouldn't be a bad place to start in if Parker is upheld.

[mljdeckard]

I don't want my guns registered any more than I want my health files, dna strand, printer, or religious status registered, logged, and monitored by the .gov.

Why would you think it's ok for the government to know the quantity, type, and location of your guns? What possible good can come of it?

[Sans Authoritas]

mljdeckard, if you're not a criminal, what are you afraid of?

-Sans Authoritas

[H088]

mljdeckard, if you're not a criminal, what are you afraid of?

The definition of criminal can change very quickly.

I am not for a registry but if it comes down to bans I would certainly take registration instead.

[PTK]

mljdeckard

SA was trying for sarcastic humor, methinks.

[freakshow10mm]

Ask our British or Australian members about national registries.

[matt87]

Registration is a fairly certain prerequesit for confiscation. Can't put it any more succinctly or accurately than that.

[mljdeckard]

THEY CAN'T CONFISCATE IF THEY NEVER REGISTER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

There are (At least) 270 million unregistered guns in America. No matter what steps are taken that will require LAW ABIDING people to register them, there will be a margin of NON law abiding people who will not comply. This is the reality which makes the possibility remote enough that practical-minded people won't try it. As soon as they convince us that we must comply 'for the common good', it's all over.

[BullpupBen]

Whats so bad about a potential federal gun registry? I would rather have registration then bannings of fire-arms, especially if most of the federal bans would be removed.


Every single total gun ban has had gun registry as its precursor. This is especially true when the ones banning were a tyrannical government which needed to disarm its people. Maybe you should look at this chart:

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#dgc

Registration or some kind of federally mandated permit is in virtually every one. I think the only one that it isn't in is communist china, where the government had already gone far far past that point among all the other civil liberties.

[H088]

If you can't buy the gun at all, it seems like it won't really matter.

I am not for either, but when it comes down to being able to purchase new firearms verses not being able to. I would still rather register them then have them banned completely.

[Art Eatman]

This has gotten pretty much away from a repeal of the ban...