Oooh... Someone doesn't like Oleg's site...


March 3, 2003, 04:33 PM
I've been including a link to in my sig lines on a couple of boards... Got this today...


Well, I clicked on the other image, there is NO amonut of information, 'evidence', or anything that will ever convince me that gun owndership is a good thing. You are talking to a western european here. In some of the EU countries not even the police are armed! Consequently violent crime in the EU is just a fraction of what happens in the US and I want to keep it that way. Make guns available, and the criminals will have easier access, and as they do, more people will need them in order ot defend themselves, it is a viscious circle.

The US is totally different in mentality to the EU. Your country was built on pioneers who had to defend themselves from other pioneers and from the native americans who were trying to stop their land from being stolen from them. So there is a history of people needing to defend themselves and many americans feel that it is their inalienable right to do so. As a European, I simply don't see that, or feel it in any way shape or form. It is not appropriate to our culture and perhaps the US will one day see that it is inappropriate for theirs too. On the whole, you live in a far more violent society and the way you treat and deal with criminals is violent too, prisons being seeing as places for punishment rather than rehabilitation, the death penalty etc,etc, all things that are totally alien to the Europe of today, most memeber states having abolished the death penalty in the 1960's, and one or two later in the 19670's.

If the US had a more caring social structure, most of these problems could be solved. Crime is born of environment, lack of education, poverty and hopelessness. As homelessness is virtually unheard of in the EU, we don't have the social problems to go with it. But I don't think most US citizens would be happy to pay the 19% sales tax we pay, and almost 40% income tax in order to ensure that the less fortunate are taken care of. Most 'project' housing in the EU has been designed with ample trees, water features (ponds, canals etc) so that the 'depressed' areas are not so depressing, and all that has to be paid for.

We simply have a different way of doing things and the results speak for themselves.

You have a country I have visited many times, at least 16 times, and have lived there once for 6 months, and I like it a lot. But when push comes to shove, I am a European through and through and find some things about US culture quite alien and quite distasteful. There is a lot of talk in the US about individuals rights, about freedom and democracy, but from my perspective as a European, it is a travesty and simply not true when the richest nation on the planet cannot look after its own people, does not afford all of its citizens equality (gays in the military for example, immigration of gay partners, lack of sufficient medical care for the poor etc,etc....the list goes on) and where everything seems to be driven by profit and financial considerations. All of these rights are considered normal in the EU, and yet they are still hotly discussed and disputed within the very country that claims to be the home and defender of democracy. Interesting paradox methinks.

My two penneth worth,

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March 3, 2003, 04:37 PM
Gee, I'm sure that really hurt Oleg's feelings. :p

March 3, 2003, 04:39 PM
two penneth worth?
'dem euros shoore do talk funny.

March 3, 2003, 04:47 PM

You illogical sorry European so-and-so. Hopelessness with what you and yours had to offer was what made so many of us leave your Utopia.

"...a travesty...when the richest nation on the planet cannot look after its own people."

If you're sweet homeland had been better maybe more of us would have stayed there and not come here.

And lastly, if it's so bad STOP VISITING.

Okay, not lastly.

"...cannot look after its own people..."

BINGO. There's the problem. The writer thinks the Nanny State is the highest form of civilization.

Sorry, been a long day so far.


March 3, 2003, 04:48 PM
That person certainly emphasized his concern about gay rights, while embracing a 19% sales tax and 40% income tax. I suspect that my ancestors were the folks that left his ancestors and went to search for Life, Liberty, and so on......

El Tejon
March 3, 2003, 04:49 PM
I for one am very, very happy the Europeans are disarmed. I hope they stay that way.

March 3, 2003, 04:57 PM
No "homelessness in the EU?" I personally watched the staff of a London McDonald's physically throw a homeless man out of their restaurant and they didn't exhibit any of that European compassion for their fellow man that we hear so much about.

March 3, 2003, 05:07 PM
Where does that hopeless Blissninny think Americans came from. In case there any more like that one tuned in, I will tell them. The people who founded America came from WESTERN EUROPE. There were occasional settlers from other regions, but by and large, we are them.

The problem lies not with us, for we still have the intestinal fortitude to persevere and triumph against adversity. We do not roll over and blindly submit to increasingly more oppressive governments who believe the answer to every social problem is to throw money at it and raise taxes to pay for it.

Europeans who believe they are safer without the availability of guns should ask themselves why the Police are being armed at an ever increasing pace. Could it be because the criminal element there is just the same as it is here. The BGs dont give a D*** about Gun laws or restrictions on owning firearms. They are arming themselves as heavily as American BGs. The biggest difference is that Americans can still fight back.

I second the comment that those who do not like the way we do things here, stay IN EUROPE

March 3, 2003, 05:08 PM
Yep, all those gun control laws sure did clean up London! Sure it is not a central European country but still!

Another interesting thing I would LOVE to know, what percentage of criminals are caught in the EU compared to the US. I remember a stastic a few years back where we caught almost twice as many lawbreakers, therefore the need for more prisons!


March 3, 2003, 05:21 PM
Where to begin?
Crime in many EU countries is not really lower than that of the United States. The definitions of crime are twisted to lower crime statistics, while the FBI figures are worse case numbers. For instance, in England, in order for a murder to be a murder, a person must be convicted of the crime. If (s)he is plea bargained down or found to be insane, it is not a murder. Needless to say in a system like that, there is pressure to plea bargain. That way the Home Office can tell the people that few murders happened (even if we are knee deep in bodies). For the FBI numbers, any deaths are considered murders unless ruled otherwise (death certificate, etc.). I'm sure this same method applies to other crimes are well.
Second, Europe does not have a history of peace. They have a historoy of invading each other when the opportunity presents itself. There is a long history of "nobility" and clergy engaging in robbery and rape - with the law and the mechanisms of the law backing them. In an environment like that, the people need to be armed.
Third, freedom comes with responsibilities and downsides. The freedom to live life as you will and try to succeed is also the freedom to fail. It is also the freedom to use your own resourses to help others, if you so choose. If you make mistakes, it is the freedom to try to change or rehabilitate, and there are community and government resourses to help.

Oleg Volk
March 3, 2003, 05:27 PM
I am so depressed and hurt by the refusal of that uncaring person to validate my feeling on this subject. I will sue! ;)

Ol' Badger
March 3, 2003, 05:31 PM
He'll change his mind when some Congo Carl rapes his lady friend and gets away with it. I've been to Europe and its filled with old building and furners. Lots of stones left on the ground too. Maybe they should try cleaning it up some :D

March 3, 2003, 05:32 PM
Glad to see our euro trash cousin has such a keen grasp of American History;
that our God given right for self defense in the form of bearing firearms was born out of pioneers fighting each other and the need to decimate the indigenous population while we stole their land. No such history in Europe;
just decade after decade of sociopathic,
melagomaniacal, genetically defective despots claiming the devine right of kings while flinging around the lives of their subject populations like so many ragdolls in a windstorm. Oh, and let's not forget the slaughter, enslavement and or forced conversion of the European Jews which took place on an alarmingly regular basis and the residual anti-semitism that is the core of Old Europe's Iraq policy today.

Yep, those guys are truly something to marvel at and when we grow up we should wanna be just like them.:barf:

March 3, 2003, 05:35 PM

March 3, 2003, 05:41 PM
I thought agricola already saw Oleg's site? :confused:


We simply have a different way of doing things and the results speak for themselves.

Heh.. well, yeah, I'd say that about sums it up.


March 3, 2003, 05:43 PM
Switzerland is where?

March 3, 2003, 05:56 PM
My brother still calls me a gay Marine and I've never, ever been gay. Not even once. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

March 3, 2003, 05:59 PM
What a ridiculous generalization regarding Europe this person makes. :(

I'm sitting here in Germany in Central Europe where police officers are generally armed and so is the rest of population (~30m firearms for 83m people).
And even though my guns can only protect me when I'm home, I strangely feel much safer than if I'd be in the UK, where ordinary citizens are more and more disarmed, the police is being more and more armed (the unarmed Bobby is an endangered species!), and armed crime is growing.

Europe does not consist of the UK alone and it is far from being disarmed or unarmed! :neener:

March 3, 2003, 06:02 PM
...there is NO amonut of information, 'evidence', or anything that will ever convince me that gun owndership is a good thing.I stopped reading right there. Why bother with the rest?

By skipping the parts of the email after it is made clear that this guy just wants to yell at you and is no mood to 'discuss', I keep my blood pressure down and am able to go about my day without feeling the overwhelming urge to throttle an entire UK cricket team.

Ignoring this garbage is turning out to be a pretty positive move.


- Gabe

March 3, 2003, 06:11 PM
Murt/Viggen/Murtgen did you write this? Is this you?:p

Jim March
March 3, 2003, 06:19 PM
If you can possibly pass my reply back to him:

The sad fact is, when you Europeans talk about "American Violence", you're really talking about *black* violence. African-Americans commit more than 50% of all US murders, while making up about 15% of the population. It's not considered "polite" to talk about, but it's the truth. It's the result of past racism and systematic policies destroying black families and social instutions for literally hundreds of years, not anything genetic.

If you exclude those murders, the rest of the US has both an "overall violence rate" and a murder rate (murders regardless of weapon type) right in the middle of the pack of European counties.

So when a European blames guns and self defense for America's crime, it's just ignorant ranting. Legal self defense has a very modest downward influence on crime.

The really big PLUS in America is that we don't have a problem with rampaging murderous dictatorial lunatics savaging the entire continent once every 30 to 80 years, and sometimes at the same time. Any one of Hitler's death camps killed more people in a year than the combined murder total in the US over a *generation*...and Stalin was WORSE. If a Hitler starts to rise up here, we'll shoot him deader'n'Elvis.

And you can take any snide comments about Dubya equalling Hitler regarding the Iraq matter and stick it where the sun don't shine. We've rid Europe of FIVE major murderous dictators or dictatorial regimes in the last hundred years, and now when we're about to knock off another one, you get all prissy because it's not *Europeans* who are being gassed/murdered/tortured, so you don't give a dang. The lot of you make us sick. When the next totalitarian jerk raises his sorry head in Europe, which is inevitable because there ain't squat YOU can do about it, instead of risking our troops to deal with him we should just nuke him till him and 100 miles of surrounding geography glows in the dark.


March 3, 2003, 06:34 PM
I've seen plenty of homeless people in England. I remember pressing a pound coin into the grubby palm of an English homeless person and I didn't see anyone comming to take him away from all that.

I have a little known fact about England, this is taken from the Gaurdian (an English liberal newspaper), You are 4 times as likelt to be assulted in England than in the U.S. 4 TIMES!!!!:what: I can find the exact numbers or you can look them up somewhere. It is not surprising since no one has any guns:rolleyes: Why not beat someone up if you are bigger than they are? Why not rape a woman? Who is going to stop you?

Murder rates are higher here of course but they are still low compared to other nations like Columbia. If someone tells you that America has the highest murder rate in the world, you should bet them that it doesn't. That will either shut them up or force them into paying you some cash, either way, you win!

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
March 3, 2003, 06:52 PM
Obviously this Eurotrash hasn't got any friends/relatives/neighbors who lived where he does from 1936-1945. They'd be having Oktoberfests in Bristol if the 'violent Americans' didn't come pull their fat out of the fire a couple of times.

...and people wonder why we haven't built a big wall around the country yet.

Of course, I can easily play the Ugly American since my ancestors came here way long ago...actually, I'm pretty ugly for anything. At least that's what my ex tells me.

Nothing else to add. I just wish sometimes that Reims and Amsterdam were within Scud range, but that's just being mean-spirited.

Notice the Israelis aren't being petty towards us. I guess true friends are good to have, and have memories like elephants.

March 3, 2003, 06:55 PM
"In some of the EU countries not even the police are armed! Consequently violent crime in the EU is just a fraction
of what happens in the US and I want to keep it that way."

HAHAAHHAAA Now doesn't that put an interesting spin on things!

As far as cannals and ponds in the projects so the depressed aren't so depressed.....I'll supply the shovels :D

March 3, 2003, 07:03 PM
Let me think,

19% Sales Tax

40% Income Tax

A Gay Military

Gay Partners as "normal"

Liberals Everywhere

No Guns

And people that say Methinks and Penneth

After deliberating this in my mind for 1/10th a milisecond, naaa, I'll stay here in the US, tough decision though.


No wonder we crossed the ocean! :rolleyes:

March 3, 2003, 07:09 PM
Just *WHY* do people like this even bother trying to compare their nations with ours? Don't they realize that our ancestors LEFT those places, and for a damned good reason, at that?

I wonder what color the sky is in his world, anyway?

March 3, 2003, 07:15 PM
"In some of the EU countries not even the police are armed! Consequently violent crime in the EU is just a fraction

I'll go along with that. The police, such as the Gestapo, have committed a majority of the violent crimes in Europe.

March 3, 2003, 07:52 PM
KSFreeman, I for one am very, very happy the Europeans are disarmed. I hope they stay that way.
Disarmed? In Norway we have almost the same number of guns per capita that you have in the US.
I don't consider myself unarmed. :)
And why would you prefer us unarmed? :confused:

March 3, 2003, 08:04 PM
One of the things that's so great about America is that we're free to choose pretty much whatever we like. We can choose to be successful (which is available to all) and we can choose to not be if we so desire (as that option is also available to us). We can freely choose to be evil or we can freely choose to be good. The overwhelming majority choose by their own free will to be good which makes freedom all that more meaningful and precious.
I'm sorry that I didn't make it through your entire post as my time is extraordinarily valuable. I won't critique your country as I probably don't know much about it and it seems to be working out well for you.
Many of what you claim to be a negative about America can be traced back to how we've gotten a bit away from core American values (to include, in many states, the 2nd Amendment). Seems like America may be on the upswing as many are starting to see right through the liberal elitest mindset of much of our leadership. Time will tell. Either way, there's always Texas.

March 3, 2003, 08:27 PM
Glad to see this European POS likes it there because I don't want him/her here...


Kahr carrier
March 3, 2003, 09:06 PM
Two cents worth ,I think he is overvaluing his Opinion.:neener:

Standing Wolf
March 3, 2003, 09:19 PM
As a European, I simply don't see that, or feel it in any way shape or form. It is not appropriate to our culture and perhaps the US will one day see that it is inappropriate for theirs too.

As a European, you live on your knees.

March 3, 2003, 09:25 PM
I was glad to hear from the Europeans who disagree with the post. Being an ignorant American redneck, I had no idea that Germany and Norway still had the freedoms they cited.

My ancestors may have left in the early 1700's but I'm glad that some of them were from Germany and Norway!

Harold Mayo
March 3, 2003, 09:26 PM
But I don't think most US citizens would be happy to pay the 19% sales tax we pay, and almost 40% income tax in order to ensure that the less fortunate are taken care of. Most 'project' housing in the EU has been designed with ample trees, water features (ponds, canals etc) so that the 'depressed' areas are not so depressing, and all that has to be paid for.

We simply have a different way of doing things and the results speak for themselves.

No, I don't want to pay 19% sales tax and 40% income tax to benefit the less fortunate. The less fortunate are less fortunate because, for the most part, they've worked less hard than me and/or are less educated than me. "Fortune", in terms of luck, plays a small role in it. I already pay enough taxes that go to things of which I don't approve...why should I pay MORE of my money out to help people who don't want to help themselves but just want to sit around in the parks that my tax money would have built for them?

Park-like projects? Good Lord! I'm sure welfare is probably unlimited, too. No reason to go get a job when the working and productive populace supports you.

A different way of doing things? You sure do. The results speak for themselves?


If you want to stack up murder statistics of the US vs. Europe, when do you want to start? Let's be arbitrary and choose the year 1900 until now. Hmmm...several thousand murders in the US...perhaps even 10's of thousands? Don't know, but it doesn't go higher than 5 figures, I'm pretty sure. Europe? Hmmm...1900 and forward? Let's try 6 million Jews. Ooops...Europe "beat" us. Europe sure is civilized.

More results? What European country matches the US in GNP? Does the entire European continent? What country takes care of the Europeans when something goes wrong? Hmmm...I think it's the US. How many Americans flock to Europe to live permanently? How many Europeans come here? I think that those figures, even on a per capita basis, speak for themselves.

March 3, 2003, 09:34 PM
wow - another demonstration that socialist political practices results in low testosterone levels across an entire population! I'm sure oleg took that guy's ideas for what they were worth...and then went out and cleaned off his shoes...

March 3, 2003, 09:47 PM
Marx won after all...:banghead:

March 3, 2003, 10:21 PM
He's right guys.
The Euros do it right.
Let's agree, Europe is a safer and more placid place that we have here.

That is.....
If you over look the War to End All Wars
And the one that followed the War to End All Wars
And the millions that were murdered but the gun gradders of the 3rd Reich.
And if you overlook any of the violence that took place in the Eastern block countries while the Soviets ran things
And if you overlook Bosnia and places like that.
And, well.....

Europe is just a bunch more peaceful than here. It's just one big round the clock Love-In.



March 3, 2003, 10:43 PM
Wow! What a surprise!

A liberal European Socialist doesn't like the way things are in the USA. Hope he remembers that when the Islamic uprising starts and we deny his immigration visa. :D

March 3, 2003, 11:04 PM
The ignorance and bigotry of the initial correspondent made me annoyed to be of European extraction, while the ignorance and bigotry of many of the followup posters made me ashamed to be a member of the alleged "High Road". :rolleyes:

"Congo Carl", indeed, "Ol' Badger". Tell me, does your wife get mad at the eyholes cut in the pillowcases? :fire:

El Rojo
March 3, 2003, 11:17 PM
The human species is doomed. Face it. People are just plain stupid. They are so quick to forget the past and things that got them in trouble. So quick to re-embrace that hopeless idea that people are good and that government knows what is best for you. Face it, people are selfish by nature, they can and will disregard the rights of others if they have to in order to advance their own agenda. If someone wants to forget that, let em. Darwinism at its finest, they will be weeded out.

March 3, 2003, 11:33 PM
And why would you prefer us unarmed?

No offense, but it may be because us American "cowboys" have to come over there every few decades to kick somebody's a-- that got out of line and save all the "civilized" folk over there that don't mind sending their neighbors to forced labor camps, just so long as the state promises them cultural attractions like ballet, symphonies, and art for "free."

Norway excluded. I do suppose you owe the English more than us. The English owe us.


March 3, 2003, 11:53 PM
Where? In Luxembourg (Murder rate doulble that of the US?)
In the Netherlands (triple), or in the UK?:evil:

Guy B. Meredith
March 4, 2003, 01:55 AM
Don't need a reason to have a gun, need to have plenty of reason why individuals should not have the freedom to participate in any recreational activity they desire. Maybe abbreviated freedoms is required to reduce crime. Always a good idea to let Society carry the burden of the actions of the few.

Let's see. What has been in the news recently? Red Brigade, November 17 group... Basque separatists have not made headlines recently. No drug dealing in public housing, of course, as they are all happy happy happy to be crime free.

Are the Serbs, Croats, and others in that area a part of Europe; you know, the intertribal warfare and ethnic cleansing? Bombings? Of course this rabble wouldn't THINK of emigrating to the EU and bringing their nastier habits.

Guess finding Germany a convenient place to run a terrorist network and stage suicide attacks on the New York world trade center isn't a crime, just European politics as usual.

Weren't some Euros not too long back echoing the sentiments of Canadians who come to the US for the desirable level of medical care? Spreading the wealth tends to thin it out I guess.

I guess there might be a few bumps here and there, but overall I'd say that the United States has done a pretty good job over the last century in creating an environment where Europeans can live as civilized creatures. No stress, plenty of time and room for some individuals to be smug, self righteous and supercilious.

(Edited to meet a Higher standard.)

March 4, 2003, 09:05 AM
This whole "Europe" practice of lumping all what, 37 countries? in Europe into one big nebulous cowardly entity is getting on my nerves.

Yes, France and Germany suck (or, at the very least, their political leadership does). Yes, the UK has idiotic crime laws.
Yes, many of the Western EU members are heavily socialized nanny-states.

But when we say "Europe is nothing but a bunch of hoplophobic weasels" we are including, for example, Switzerland - one of the most free and prosperous countries on Earth, and the various former Warsaw Pact nations (Poland and the Czech Republic, especially).

And despite their flaws (America-hating leadership in some, short-sightedness for others, Socialist nanny-states for others) Europe is still a much better place than most on Earth (this country excepted), and most of the nations there remain stalwart allies of ours.

Let us not make the mistake of judging the silent many for the mistakes of the loud few.

(all that said, I do enjoy a good round of Euro-bashing from time to time. I just think that people who would bash "Europe" should pause a moment to consider what "Europe" really is - a geographical boundary enclosing a large number of very diverse nation-states)

Sean Smith
March 4, 2003, 09:19 AM
This has been quite educational. It is good to see that there is more firearms ownership in some parts of Europe than I thought.

Basing "Europeans" is a bit like bashing "Americans." There are around 300 million of each... so generalizations are meaningless. :rolleyes:

March 4, 2003, 09:20 AM
We simply have a different way of doing things and the results speak for themselves.

Especially in the 1910s, 1930s and 1940s.:rolleyes:

I thought it is supposed to be us ugly Americans who are shortsighted. It's funny how Europeans think 50 years of relative peace - driven primarily by NATO and nuclear mutual-assured destruction - somehow makes them more "civilized" than Americans.

March 4, 2003, 09:41 AM
Maybe we should pledge to read THR rules every day before posting? :fire:

TFL Survivor

Guy B. Meredith
March 4, 2003, 10:05 AM
My response is intentionally pure sarcasm and as such highlilghts what may not be (is not) the standard, but what has been blithely ignored in self righteous world views of individuals. Duty of sarcasm is to underscore these discrepancies.

Why, some of my best friends are little European folk (said in my best redneck "liberal" drawl).

March 4, 2003, 10:06 AM
As a european (and soon to be EU member) I found some parts of his/her letter really amusing.

„Consequently violent crime in the EU is just a fraction of what happens in the US and I want to keep it that way.”

Haha, looks like he never saw the new violent crime statistics in the UK…

„As homelessness is virtually unheard of in the EU , we don't have the social problems to go with it.”

BWAHAHAHA!!!! This guy is really live in the EU? I seriously doubt that! :rolleyes: :barf:

„US culture quite alien and quite distasteful”

Pardon me, but I think some (put your "favourite" EU nation here) european cultures just as alien and distasteful as the US. :neener:

D.W. Drang
March 4, 2003, 11:41 AM
Jim March
It's the result of past racism and systematic policies destroying black families and social instutions for literally hundreds of years, not anything genetic. You might also point out that these were caused by slavery which we inherited from Europeans... They like to get all high and mighty abotu our problems, but at least we're trying to dseral with them, even as we deal with problems they caused and bailed out on. (Like the Middel East, for example...)

March 4, 2003, 01:33 PM
It's amazing how quickly we turn into the same people we criticize for hating America. Let's not bash the whole countries and nations (especially in such derogatory manner) based on the opinions of the few whom we disagree with. I noticed quite a few times when someone posted something about US that was full of bigotry and stereotypes and The High Road members responded in the same tone.

We are better than this.

March 4, 2003, 01:49 PM
Another alarming part about the EU is the insistance on political conformity - i.e. France warning Bulgaria that if they support the US on Iraq then Bulgaria may not get into the EU.
While I am sure that every President of the United States wished for absolute support, they have not publicly demanded it. I don't recall any EU member rushing out to repudiate France's statement and rebuke them.
As for Isreal "not being petty", they have several reasons. Decades of American military aid. US political support. The enemy of my enemy thing.
I believe that European countries don't count those killed by terrorists, in wars, and in concentration camps in their murder statistics.

March 4, 2003, 01:49 PM
Insulting one's country or the way it does thngs is akin to saying "YOUR MOMMA". It tends to rankle to the core
and bring out the worst in some of us.
Though phrases such as 'congo carl' are an abomination, their use is the only defense some seem to have for being verbally challenged or threatened. Perhaps subjects such as this one are better left unposted as they seem to have the effect of bringing out the poorer angels of our nature.

Pots and kettles..........

March 4, 2003, 02:26 PM
I used to get into some name calling, mudslinging, etc. on some other forums, and for what? I used to lose my cool when verbally attacked and or stereotyped by some "foreigner". You know what? Anyone who can voice their opinions freely (like on the High Road) has got it pretty good. I'm sure there are some ups and downs no matter which side of the ocean you live on. The really cool thing is we are free to discuss/debate each other, even on the other side of the world. Having said all that, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Man, I love this country! :D

As far as Americans all being cowboys? Man do I wish! If I didn't live in the city, I'd trade my old Ford Taurus for a good horse in a heartbeat. ;)

Alan Fud
March 6, 2003, 08:33 PM
"... We simply have a different way of doing things and the results speak for themselves ..."

They certainly do. How many tens of million innocent men, women & children were killed during WWI and WWII ... wars started byEuropeans.

Byron Quick
March 6, 2003, 09:27 PM
Folks, from the fundamental ignorance about Europe that the writer showed, I suspect he is an American liberal.

Hey, guys, get over the resentment against the German, French, and Russian governments. They're not opposing us because we're Americans. They're not even opposing us because they think we're wrong and they're right. They're opposing us because they fear that if they do not then global American hegemony is inevitable. Unfortunately-from their viewpoint-that hegemony is inevitable whether they support or oppose the US.

Germany and France were once Great Powers back in the days before the superpowers. They remember that and resent their present impotence-especially France. It's why France partially withdrew from NATO in the middle sixties and created the "force de frappe."

This is nothing but the resentful nattering of has beens.

March 6, 2003, 11:07 PM
Edited by Coronach. Again.

March 6, 2003, 11:45 PM
well now, we've had racism, and now the questioning of the sexual orientation of, presumably, several entire cultures.

This one is done.


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