[DaveB]

Published on Sunday, March 2, 2003 by the Los Angeles Times

War Will Create More Baby Bin Ladens - by Khalid Khawaja

I am a Pakistani, a former officer of my country's air force and intelligence services, a close companion of Osama bin Laden in the early days of the Afghan resistance when we fought together against the "evil" Soviets. I am a grandfather and a devout, uncompromising, long-bearded Muslim.

In short, I am what many of you in the United States would today refer to as a "terrorist."

But I and my long-bearded brothers are no more the terrorists than your president and his military advisors.

Legions of Muslims around the world -- and be sure there are many more of us than of you -- agree that a madman should not possess weapons that can threaten or destroy humanity. We despise the tyrant Saddam Hussein's cruelty against his own people every bit as much as you. We are clear in our minds that Hussein's extreme hypocrisy, such as living in palaces whose construction costs would feed a million people in my country for a year, must be dealt with. This includes his removal from power.

The question is how to do it so innocent lives are not lost at the hands of what are perceived by our people as imperialist powers, and in so doing, not losing more and more of our bright minds into what one of your writers has aptly referred to as the "basement" of the Arab and Muslim world.

We worry as much about our children going out one day and blowing themselves up as you worry about them coming at you to do so, whether in Israel or on your streets in America.

Your government's actions are breeding our homicidal bombers at such a fast rate that we cannot cope, what with the meager resources we have to counter the threat you pose to us. Your government proposes a course of action against Iraq and beyond that will lead only to one thing: the breeding of tens of thousands of baby Osamas who will be ever more desperate to tear you down, just as your leaders today seek to destroy the Iraqi regime and next, the one in North Korea or Iran or maybe one day in my country.

We in the Umma, the Muslim world, believe -- not unjustifiably if one studies history -- that American and British rulers, with their laser-guided weapons of mass terror, want to subjugate others who do not wish to be ruled.

We are often amazed at how Americans have allowed their leaders to create an artificial confrontation with us when it is not needed.

We acknowledge that some of our brethren may have become so disenfranchised in their own minds by irrational fears of U.S. domination that they committed violence against civilians not justified by the authentic spirit of Islam's teachings.

Today, I speak on behalf of every true Muslim in our Umma when I apologize to every American for the loss of even one innocent life in any tragic event, including Sept. 11, 2001, in which those who claimed Islam as their religion may have been involved.

Will George Walker Bush apologize to the thousands of Afghan families for the loss of even one innocent father, mother or child from the carpet-bombing raids on our lands? Will he do the same when more Iraqi children die because one tyrant decided to use them as human shields to expose the hypocrisy of another?

It is as if the American government does not recognize the equality of man outside its own borders.

Retaliation breeds only more unjust and inhuman retaliation. Some nation, or group of people, must put an end to this insane cycle of violence before the nuts on your side cause the nuts on our side to create a series of cataclysmic events. Need I remind the American people that Muslims too possess weapons of mass destruction?

True Muslims can never accept the supremacy of another human being's actions over them. Only almighty Allah is supreme. And therein lies the central conflict.

You believe in the separation of church and state. We believe Allah's words as revealed in the Koran are sufficient to govern our life -- the church is the state, if you will.

How, then, do we live in peace together? Perhaps the answer lies within you as a nation that professes democratic values. Show the rational Muslim world your restraint by not leading a war against our innocent children and we will show you how capable we are of dealing with the hypocrisy and evil in our so-called leaders no matter where in the Umma they may rule.

It takes little for us internally to remove Hussein from power. It will cost you billions of dollars, untold losses in military casualties and a lifetime of retaliation from the baby Bin Ladens you will have given rise to.

Do not fear us, because we are not your enemy. Your enemy is within you. The time has come for us to bridge the gulf that divides us for the sake of nothing less than humanity itself.

Khalid Khawaja, a senior intelligence officer for Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence from 1985 to 1987, lives in Islamabad and co-authored a 1993 accord that brought together warring factions to end civil strife in Afghanistan.

Brought to you by...

db

[Destructo6]

True Muslims can never accept the supremacy of another human being's actions over them. Only almighty Allah is supreme. And therein lies the central conflict.
Huh? Then, what is the Caliphate and/or Immam?

The gripe must be that those now weilding vast power are not Muslim.

[LawDog]

It takes little for us internally to remove Hussein from power. It will cost you billions of dollars, untold losses in military casualties and a lifetime of retaliation from the baby Bin Ladens you will have given rise to.

Right, then, why is Hussein still breathing my air? It's been twelve years since Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, twenty years since his senseless war with Iran. You have had time and enough to "internally remove" Saddam Hussein. You haven't.

There is a saying: "Spit, or get off the pot." You've had between 12 and twenty years to spit. Now, move.

LawDog

[CZ-75]

Jihad means a struggle against injustice.

Funny that Muslims don't find injustice so intolerable when it comes from one who, loosely, professes their faith.

I'd be more than happy for the US to provide logistical support, short of arms, to any group of Muslims willing to wage a Jihad against Iraq.

[benewton]

"Legions of Muslims around the world -- and be sure there are many more of us than of you"


A minor, temporary problem,easily solved.

And we do need to test the our weapons: I don't trust computer simulations at all.

[Phyphor]

"I am a Pakistani, a former officer of my country's air force and intelligence services, a close companion of Osama bin Laden in the early days of the Afghan resistance when we fought together against the "evil" Soviets. I am a grandfather and a devout, uncompromising, long-bearded Muslim.

In short, I am what many of you in the United States would today refer to as a "terrorist." "

It's nice to see someone that's in touch with themselves....



But I and my long-bearded brothers are no more the terrorists than your president and his military advisors.

While I'm no fan of Bush or most of his policies, I don't see him advocating that our people go out and kill as many arabs/etc as possible.

Legions of Muslims around the world -- and be sure there are many more of us than of you --

Nice vieled threat, there.

agree that a madman should not possess weapons that can threaten or destroy humanity.


Then just why the **** didn't any of you do anything about this in the FIRST place? Why let it go THIS far?

We despise the tyrant Saddam Hussein's cruelty against his own people every bit as much as you. We are clear in our minds that Hussein's extreme hypocrisy, such as living in palaces whose construction costs would feed a million people in my country for a year, must be dealt with. This includes his removal from power.

Like Lawdog said, you guys had your chance for at LEAST the last 20 years, and no results worth mentioning were produced....so why all the lip service now?

The question is how to do it so innocent lives are not lost at the hands of what are perceived by our people as imperialist powers, and in so doing, not losing more and more of our bright minds into what one of your writers has aptly referred to as the "basement" of the Arab and Muslim world.

We worry as much about our children going out one day and blowing themselves up as you worry about them coming at you to do so, whether in Israel or on your streets in America.

Then why not DO something about it?

Your government's actions are breeding our homicidal bombers at such a fast rate that we cannot cope, what with the meager resources we have to counter the threat you pose to us. Your government proposes a course of action against Iraq and beyond that will lead only to one thing: the breeding of tens of thousands of baby Osamas who will be ever more desperate to tear you down, just as your leaders today seek to destroy the Iraqi regime and next, the one in North Korea or Iran or maybe one day in my country.

What's ironic about this is the fact that we weren't doing anything NEAR what we are now, pre-9/11....
Just how the hell did we cause THAT?

We in the Umma, the Muslim world, believe -- not unjustifiably if one studies history -- that American and British rulers, with their laser-guided weapons of mass terror, want to subjugate others who do not wish to be ruled.

Just WHY would we want to enslave a people with almost NOTHING to offer? Certainly, there's oil rich nations over there, but Venezuela is much closer, and we could probably beat the snot out of them that much faster....
<snip>

Today, I speak on behalf of every true Muslim in our Umma when I apologize to every American for the loss of even one innocent life in any tragic event, including Sept. 11, 2001, in which those who claimed Islam as their religion may have been involved.

That means lots, really, it does.

<snip>
True Muslims can never accept the supremacy of another human being's actions over them. Only almighty Allah is supreme. And therein lies the central conflict.

You believe in the separation of church and state. We believe Allah's words as revealed in the Koran are sufficient to govern our life -- the church is the state, if you will.

Indeed, therein lies the problem. Religion really shouldn't be what governs nations in their entirety.


How, then, do we live in peace together? Perhaps the answer lies within you as a nation that professes democratic values. Show the rational Muslim world your restraint by not leading a war against our innocent children and we will show you how capable we are of dealing with the hypocrisy and evil in our so-called leaders no matter where in the Umma they may rule.

Well, get on with it, already.

It takes little for us internally to remove Hussein from power. It will cost you billions of dollars, untold losses in military casualties and a lifetime of retaliation from the baby Bin Ladens you will have given rise to.

Creating a target rich environment...

Do not fear us, because we are not your enemy. Your enemy is within you. The time has come for us to bridge the gulf that divides us for the sake of nothing less than humanity itself.

MY enemy is he who threatens to take my life or my freedom.

[MeekandMild]

Old Khalid Khawaja kind of sticks his foot in it here. He's an egotistical (deleted):

True Muslims can never accept the supremacy of another human being's actions over them. Only almighty Allah is supreme. And therein lies the central conflict. Who the **** decides whether it is really Allah or just the voices from smoking too much ripe hashis, Mr. Khwaja****?

On a more polite and erudite level I like what Norma Khouri (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030301/COWENT1/TPColumnists/) says about Islam.

"I call Islam a totalitarian regime in the guise of a religion," she says. "Bigotry, discrimination and male chauvinism are not just implied in Islam. They are an integral part of Muslim law. The Arab world needs to realize that it cannot progress and treat 50 per cent of the population according to the laws and traditions of 1,200 years ago."

[Oleg Volk]

"I call Islam a totalitarian regime in the guise of a religion," she says. "Bigotry, discrimination and male chauvinism are not just implied in Islam. They are an integral part of Muslim law.

And yet the esteemed sysadmin of this forum, my friend Derek Zeenah, a patriot of America, a veteran of the US armed forces who doesn't, as far as I know, oppress his wife or any other women, does do a great deal for your RKBA and mine (including giving his time, skills and money to the cause) is a Moslem faithful. I guess not all of them are bloodthursdty savage out to get us. (And while we are on the topic of commonly held misconceptions, Jews don't feast on the blood of Christian infants much, either.)

[CZ-75]

Think of all the so-called "Identity" "Christians."

Truly every bit as nutty as Osama and the boys.

Meir Kahane (fortunately dead) was a Jewish nut; an ideological supporter of his shot Rabin.

Kooks infest every religion.

[EJ]

Kooks infest every religion.

Absolutely--

But the MAJORITY of these guys--are nuts--
Not just a tiny mninority as in other religions--

[Phyphor]

Waitaminute, are you saying that the MAJORITY of Muslims are nuts? Because, you do know, there's at least 1 BILLION Muslims in the world... ?

I seriously doubt almost 1 billion people can be considered 'nuts.'

[4570Rick]

When the mainstream Muslim majority condem the "Muslim Extreamist Fundamentalist Terrorists", I'll change my opinion of the Muslim population, not before!!!!!!!!!!:fire:

[Oleg Volk]

When the mainstream Muslim majority condem the "Muslim Extreamist Fundamentalist Terrorists", I'll change my opinion of the Muslim population, not before!!!!!!!!!!

Seems to me that quite a few express condemnation in the most sincere way possible: by moving as far as possible from their former compatriots. The ones in the US probably want nothing to do with the kooks in charge, the ones back in their home countries...do you read Arabic, Tagalog, Hindi or other languages spoken by Moslems? If not, then what are you basing your information on, CNN reports? Should foreigners think that you endorsed Clinton based on the fact that their news reports never featured your negative opinion of his actions?

[braindead0]

The vast majority of America bases their *opinion* of Muslim people on propaganda from the press and our government.

When we treat the Israeli people the same with respect to U.N. resolutions (Israel has been in violation of 2.2 for over 3 decades) then I'll believe our government is reasonable, until then it's obvious that this is simply a power trip, bush is getting ready to be the next Hitler... and the Muslim people are going to be his 'jews'.

[buzz_knox]

"How, then, do we live in peace together?"

How about . . . stop trying to kill us? That's be a nice start. Do something about the terrorists in your midst, rather than celebrating them.

[buzz_knox]

bush is getting ready to be the next Hitler... and the Muslim people are going to be his 'jews'.

That's got to be one of the stupidest things I have had the misfortune of hearing in a long time. It is an absolute misrepresentation of the current situation as well as of history.

[ojibweindian]

What a schmuck. Hey pal, get stuffed. We AMERICANS will do the job you should have done many years ago.

[one-shot-one]

:( not to make lite of the starting thread but from my limited vantage point i think everybody is nuts but you and me and some times i wonder about you.:scrutiny:

[seeker_two]

Bin Laden's jihad is as much about Islam as the Spanish Inquisition was about Christianity (which it wasn't--it was a consolodation of power of the Catholic Church against dissidents).

Faith is of God (whatever you believe him to be)---religion is of man. Religion is where the problems begin...

[EJ]

Religion is the problem and the Muslim religion is a corrupting religion.
That creates an atmosphere of insane behavior on a huge number of deluded and to a certain extent -- controlled Muslim devotees-=-
IE--insane
That's why we have a religion unsure if 9-11 was wrong or not-- and a large number within that religion that believes it was a holy act--:cuss:

[braindead0]

Same reason we have abortion clinic bombings, attempted gas attacks in subways...etc.. ..this isn't just a Muslim thing.

[buzz_knox]

Are there religions which corrupt people? Yes. Those developed for the personal gain of a few, or which are inherently evil (i.e. call for the harming of another human as a mandatory practice). We shan't get into those as Islam doesn't fall within that category.

Islam has the potential to be corrupted into brutality or exercised in peace, depending on the practicioner and proponent, as do Judaism and Christianity. The main difference is that Judaism and Christianity went through their abusive stages in the past, and Islam is in that stage now. Go back a few centuries and you would have seen Christians yelling to "kill them all, God will know his own." Sort of familiar, no?

Those who believe 9/11 was a good thing probably support it for a variety of reasons: seeing America get "payback" for whatever grievance they think they have; feelings of empowerment that their "allies" are able to take such action; and to an extent, the belief that the Great Satan has been wounded. Then again, some Christians see 9/11 as a good thing as God's wake up call. [BS!! God doesn't work that way, no matter what religion you profess.]

In any event, Islam isn't the problem. People are. Unfortunately, though, many of those who are defending Islam end up defending the terrorists. "We don't want to say anything bad about the terrorists because they are Muslim, after all." That's where I draw the line. I can understand the religion, but if your defense of the religion ends up being an apologetic argument for the terrorists, bite me.

[Delmar]

I have to believe there are people of the muslim faith who do not condone the terrorism in the world, but as to how many, I have no clue because I rarely hear from them. What I do get are constant warnings about how evil my President is, and how evil my country is, and what cowboys we are.

To the governments of Europe, I want you to think just two words: Marshall Plan.

To the Americans who would rather turn their eyes to their paycheck instead of pitching in to bring down evil: You ungrateful jackasses- Do you think the boogie man will go away because you have your eyes closed?
If your ancestors did what you are doing, we would be goose stepping and eating fish heads.
You may fancy yourself as somehow being more important-let me assure you. You are NOT.
Where is all the patriotic gas you were blowing September 12th?

To the Muslims who believe terrorism is wrong: Where were you when many in the muslim world were cheering and dancing in the streets over the destruction of the world trade center?

To the terrorists: We do not respond favorably to threats, veiled or open, at least from your point of view. We will stop you, we will hunt you down and kill you if we have to. Go find a life for yourself and your family-your retirement benefits from your current line of work are terrible.

[EJ]

THANK YOU

Delmar

[CZ-75]

your retirement benefits from your current line of work are terrible.

72 virgins is terrible? ;)

Maybe there's a reason they wear veils, though. :evil:

[Delmar]

72 virgins is terrible?
Ran out of buckets?

[Boats]

Paradise is the balm of losers in the real world.;)

[NewShooter78]

Its not about religion, and its not about faith. Its about economics and politics. Look at the IRA. They are a Christian and political terror group.

[Delmar]

A point-you don't have to be a muslim to be a terrorist. I think these clowns hide behind it and teach their young a very perverted version in order to justify their trash. What gets me is the ones who will knowingly send their kids out to die-really gutsy parents:rolleyes:
P.T. Barnum said more than he knew:There's a sucker born every minute
It doesn't personally bother me that they take refuge behind Allah or a Kiwanis Club badge-evil is evil and it will not stand.

[Mastrogiacomo]

If Muslims are so confused why we think of them as terrorists, why don't they stage huge protests against those mad men that do evil in the name of Islam? Is that believe they secretly sympathize with them? :rolleyes:

[braindead0]

P.T. Barnum said more than he knew

Said no such thing, it was David Hannum

[Poodleshooter]

I like the part about how legions of their children will always hate us and try to kill us. :rolleyes: What is the purpose of that statement, other than begging for genocide?
I hate emails like this.

[Zander]

Seems to me that quite a few express condemnation in the most sincere way possible: by moving as far as possible from their former compatriots. -- Oleg VolkStipulated...but who, exactly, are these spokesmen with public condemnation?

Derek to the contrary, of course...

[Oleg Volk]

By "sincere condemnation", I mean moving away from the countries of origin and assimilating into the US culture.

[Zundfolge]

Sorry, I don't buy it.


$10 says this was written by some white guy who has only met one real Pakistani in his life and he just bought a coke and a bag of Doritos from him :rolleyes:

[matis]

CZ-75 said:
___________________________________________________

"Meir Kahane (fortunately dead) was a Jewish nut; an ideological supporter of his shot Rabin..."
___________________________________________________

My hunch, CZ-75 is that your "knowledge" about Rabbi Meir Kahane comes mainly from the liberal American (and most of the Israeli) press.

Before you impugne him as a Jewish nut, read his books Find out what he actually stood for.

When Stokely Carmichael and his ilk took advantage of civil rights turnoil in the 60s -- by threatening synagogues with violence and extorting $100,000 ransoms (some of the boobs actually paid him), Rabbi Meir Kahane responded by organizing the Jewish Defence League.

Kahane sent a message to Carmichael to come ahead -- tough young Jews (not exactly the stereotype, eh?) with SELF-RESPECT and WEAPONS would be waiting to welcome him. Carmichael never tried that again!

In Israel, Kahane started, Kach, a political party that stood for separation of Jews and Arabs in Israel. He said that the Arabs would NEVER accept the existence of Israel -- and that, anyway, they would outnumber the Jews in their own country, based simply on their demographics -- they have far more children per family than the Jews. Kahane was branded racist and his party was outlawed.

Yet everything he predicted has come about. If all the Arabs really want is the "occupied territories" back then why did they wage the first three wars against Isreal -- before Israel defeated them (again) in 1967, and won the "territories"? And why do you think Pakistan was separated from India? Do you really believe that the Israelis can "make peace" with those dedicated to their annihilation?

And Kahane DID NOT support Itzchak Rabin. Rabin, although a genuine war hero and Israeli patriot, was nevertheless a secular Jew, brought up with the values of socialism. He came to believe that peace with the Arabs was worth even the destruction of the Jewishness of Israel. Kahane, among many others in Israel and here in the US, believed that this was cultural and national suicide. I happen to agree with this viewpoint.

Modern Israel rose out of the ashes of the holocaust. It is a refuge for Jews persecuted in the diaspora. As in 2000 years of such persecution (and it is picking up steam again) -- the historical record is plain for those who care to know.

Kahane was an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, who taught that the secular Jews in Israel would be her undoing. Again, I think he was right.

Rabbi Kahane had the courage to tell the unvarnished truth to the majority of liberal Jews in Israel (and in the US) who would rather believe that all conflicts can be resolved by talking and making nice -- kumbiah. Kahane was totally opposed to what Rabin stood for. He was assasinated by an arab while addressing an audience, in New York City.


I would like to hear from you in what way Kahane was a Jewish nut. Does understanding and advocating the truth about reality, unpretty as it sometimes is, make one a nut? Are you a nut for supporting self-defence and the 2nd amendment?

Matis

[4570Rick]

Point well taken.

Seems to me that quite a few express condemnation in the most sincere way possible: by moving as far as possible from their former compatriots. The ones in the US probably want nothing to do with the kooks in charge, the ones back in their home countries...do you read Arabic, Tagalog, Hindi or other languages spoken by Moslems? If not, then what are you basing your information on, CNN reports? Should foreigners think that you endorsed Clinton based on the fact that their news reports never featured your negative opinion of his actions

My only excuse is living in this God forsaken pothole, surrounded by illiterates and inundated with the disinformation from the “Major Media Outlets.” :o

I don’t think of myself as being narrow of mind as a general rule. In fact, the plaque on the wall by my front door says; “Let me live in a house by the side of the road and be a friend to man.” Right now it feels like someone has been throwing rocks through the windows of my [house beside the road]. :(

But your right, I’m reacting like the knee-jerk politicians instead of using logic and reason. I apologize for venting and will try to dial it back.;)

That being said…Death to all terrorists, be they extremists bent on bringing down the US, or perverts who lure young boys or girls to their deaths with the promise of goodies. :fire:

[Oleg Volk]

Death to terrorists...what a fine sentiment! I agree with it. Just watch target selection and your backstop, lest "friendly fire" causes more trouble or harms innocents.

[Tamara]

they have far more children per family than the Jews.

Ah, yes... The fecundity of the "Other". The subtext, of course, being: "Those Arabs/Mexicans/Irish/Negroes/et cetera, they don't know how to control themselves like us decent folk, and so they're just breeding uncontrollably." I seem to recall a certain Austrian expatriate making the same claims about Jews some seventy years ago...

Oh well, at least Kahane didn't refer to them as "mud people", so I guess it could've been worse.

[El Tejon]

The silly notion of a war against the "Arab people" must be dispelled by our agitprop. This is a war to rid us of the threat of Saddam. Like a coon, shoot him and pike his head.

Like Dutchland, EastEmpire or the Rising Sun, once we kill Saddam, we'll be vacationing in Ol' Mes and selling Iraqi clutter at Pier One in the mall. I see no legions of angry Germans, Italians or Japanese terrorists killing in revenge for the defeat of their beloved fascism.

A great plurality, if not a majority, of the Germans did not support Hitler, but went along with him. There are no tears now for the innocents that died in Dresden or Berlin. Same way in the Arab world.

If the Germans/Arabs will not do what needs to be done, then we will do it, just as we cleaned up Europe. We don't want to, but we have to. If we have to fight, let's do it over there.

[CZ-75]

I would like to hear from you in what way Kahane was a Jewish nut.

I seem to remember that he was fond of saying that he wanted to eliminate the "Palestinian Problem", even if that meant wiping them out. I seem to remember the spinmeisters at "60 Minutes" doing the interview, during which he was quite adamant that that was, indeed, what he meant.

Sounds like a certain Austrian corporal to me.

I thought it was ironic that the shoe was on the other foot for some Jews.

Instead of being victims and trying to garner pity, they could go 180 degrees and start firing up the ovens themselves now that they had their own inconvenient group to deal with. :rolleyes:

Does "Sieg Heil" translate into Hebrew?

[CZ-75]

Hitler's Laws

1. The Reich Citizenship Law (1935) stripped German citizenship from all individuals, including Jews, who were not "of German or cognate blood"; Jews lost the right to vote and could not hold public office;

2. The Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor (1935) forbade marriages and all non-marital sexual relations between "Jews and citizens of German or cognate blood."

These two laws (the so-called "Nuremberg Laws") were followed by other repressive regulations, including:

3. Apartments in Munich and Berlin could not be newly rented to Jews without a special permit (1939);

4. Marriages between Germans and Jews were forbidden and cancelled if "illegally" contracted, even if contracted abroad (1939);

5. Jews were forbidden from studying in German schools; being included in visits to youth hostels; participating in school activities which would bring them into physical contact with German pupils; entering public swimming pools; or using resort facilities with Germans.




Kahane's Laws

Proposals set before the Knesset in 1984 by MK Rabbi Meir Kahane included these regulations:

1. Non-Jews to reside in Israel only as "resident aliens" without any rights of citizenship, without any right to participate in any political proceeding, to be appointed to any position of authority or to vote in any election;

2. A non-Jew was not to live within the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem;

3. Jews to be forbidden to marry non-Jews, whether in Israel or abroad, and such marriages would not be recognized;

4. All sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews to be forbidden, with transgressors to be punished by jail sentences of up to 50 years;

5. All "mixed" educational institutions, summer camps, community centers and all joint trips by "mixed" groups would be prohibited.

6. Separate beaches to be established for Jews and non-Jews.

[buzz_knox]

By "sincere condemnation", I mean moving away from the countries of origin and assimilating into the US culture.

I seem to recall 19 people who did that . . . and then murdered over 3000. Moving away from a country and assimilation is just as much a tactic of infiltration as condemnation.

[jmbg29]

by Khalid KhawajaPersonally, I don't believe that this guy is who he says he is.

If I am wrong, then he should be hunted down, and shot in the head since he proclaims himself to be a "terrorist".

End of story. :fire:

[Master Blaster]

:confused:

[Master Blaster]

Just one minor point there CZ-75,

Kahane's law did not pass, due to cooler heads prevailing in Israel. Israel is a democracy, and the Knesset has many Arab members who have a voice in government.

The Israelis have tried even to the point of giving up half their hard won (and tiny) territory to the Palestinians, to make peace with those who have sworn a blood oath not to rest Until every Jew, man, woman, or child has been killed or thrown into the sea.

It has not worked.

If the Jews were anything like the Nazis, there would not be a single living Arab in the land of Israel, which would encompass most of what is now the middle east.

Israel could easily, in a weeks time, drive every Palestinian from the occupied territories into Egypt or Jordan forever.

The Israelis are nothing at all like the Nazis.

If the American Indians here in the US started to act like the Palestinians I can assure you that the FBI, ATF, Army, would see to it that there would be nothing left but charred body parts and a big smokin hole.

The Israelis put up with a huge raft of S*** everyday.

:fire: :cuss:

AS for Tamara's remark Kahane did not want to exterminate Arabs or wipe them from the face of the earth which was the purpose of Hitlers remarks regarding the Untermenschen or Mud races. Kahan just wanted a small piece of land, Israel, as a purely Jewish state. this had to do with the fact that it was clear that there was no safe place on earth for Jews to live except their own country.

You could compare what Kahane wanted to do to say how Saudi Arabia is currently run, as a Moslem country, Non-Muslims not allowed. Kahanes rules could also be compared to say the laws in Bermuda which restrict non Bermudians from living or working there. The right of return sought by Palestinians, and their high birth rate would have caused the Jews to be outnumbered in their own country and would destroy the concept of a truely Jewish State.

[CZ-75]

Kahane's law did not pass, due to cooler heads prevailing in Israel.


No, but the sentiment sure shows.

Nice how "great" minds, like Hitler and Kahane, think alike, even down to the exclusionary laws they set forth.

If the Jews were anything like the Nazis

Not Jew(s), but one Jew in particular.

He sounds very much like a Nazi.

As to Jews, plural, the Nazis got their start as a fringe group lead by a dedicated racist, that capitalized on seething traditional enmities. Why couldn't a nut like Kahane convince a people, whom you've noted, that are under siege that he is the answer to their problem and that he will enact a "final solution" to it?

If the American Indians here in the US started to act like the Palestinians I can assure you that the FBI, ATF, Army, would see to it that there would be nothing left but charred body parts and a big smokin hole.

But would they be wrong in fighting for what was theirs?

Using the theory of "might makes right," let's look at a very brief history of the region.

The Jews kicked out the original inhabitants of Palestine, the Caananites, among others.

Egyptians and Babylonians each conquered the land, but the Jews reclaimed it.

The Romans conquered, ruled, then kicked the Jews out in the so-called Diaspora.

The Arabs took over sometime afterward, and the area was controlled by the Khalifas then the Memluks within the Arabic powerbase.

The Turks claimed the area after them, but allowed the Arabs to stay as subjects.

The British, mainly, and French took over after WWI.

Jewish terrorists forced them to leave after WWII.

The Jews then started to kick out the Palestinian Arabs.


If the Palestinians can take what they can get, it sure seems as though they've got just as much right to the land as anyone else.

[matis]

Tamara's quote:
___________________________________________________

Ah, yes... The fecundity of the "Other". The subtext, of course, being: "Those Arabs/Mexicans/Irish/Negroes/et cetera, they don't know how to control themselves like us decent folk, and so they're just breeding uncontrollably." I seem to recall a certain Austrian expatriate making the same claims about Jews some seventy years ago...

____________________________________________________

Tamara, you are indulging yourself. There was no such sub-text implied -- you are supplying it yourself.

If you bother to look up translations of what Arrafat, Hamas and many of these groups say in Arabic as one strategy in their war to oust the Jews from Israel, they themselves mention these demographics. And studies by Israeli sociologists, most of them, left wing academics (just as destructive and suicidal as are their American counterparts) who don't even like their own conclusions, find that the Arabs will outvote the Jews in Israel within a very few decades.

The dilemna of the secular Israelis is exactly this. Their parents and grandparents fled milennia of persecution culminating in the the holocaust. Israel should NOT be just another democracy -- it should be a haven for Jews. Genuflecting at the god of democracy is stupid and suicidal. They will be right back in the fire in short order if they do that.

Think you can get citizenship in Japan? You can live there and work there, but try to become a citizen if you are not a Japanese.

The US is a haven for all sorts of people and should be. But even here though, we admit people who have no business here. Those who come mainly for the welfare or who don't want to assimilate -- threaten the well-being of this country.

The Europeans are in even worse shape than we are. Once their Colonial policies collapsed, they began admitting their former colonial subjects. Do you think Britain is as polite and crime-free as it used to be? They are rife with crime and violence, much of which came with their indiscriminate immigration policies. It wasn't just their gun-control policies, you know.

France is in even worse shape than that. They have millions of former Algerians, Tunisians, Morrocans and people from their other colonies. Many of these people are decent and good citizens. But much of French crime and their social problems are caused by those immigirants who are NOT such good citizens.

Many European countries have imported problems which are now just about insoluble. Balkanization is NOT the best policy.

These countries, with the industrial might and affluence and freedom that attract others got that way because of their cultural values and traditions. Importing groups with vastly different values, and who refuse to be assimilated, may well reduce these countries to the level of the third world countries their immigrants flooded in from.

This goes for the United States, as well.

Israel is, for better or for worse, a democracy -- the only real one in the middle east. The Arabs vote and they have Arab MKs in the Knesset. In what Arab country do they treat Jews (let alone Christians) this way? And they do not hide their intentions: they proclaim that they will in time outvote and then get rid of the Jews.

A number of Arab countries have expelled the Palestinians because they agitate and undermine their host societies and have higher rates of crime and violence. Syria and Jordan expelled tens of thousands, killing thousands of Palestinians in the process.

Where were your protests and compassion then?

Israel has absorbed millions of endangered Jews, especially from the Arab countries.

Why do the Arabs keep the Palestinians in festering refugee camps for over 50 years and refuse to absorb them? Could it be that they're pawns in the Arab strategy to drive the Israelis into the sea (as they are so found of chanting).

The world prefers to wring its collective hands over the tragedies that befell the poor Jews, kicked from hither to yon, expelled, persecuted, vilified, pogrommed, murdered. But Jews with their own country, with crack troops, guns, tanks, warplances -- Jews who do NOT bow in abject submission -- that's different, isn't it? Such Jews get compared to Nazis.

I am fortunate: I used to get beat up and called "dirty Jew" growing up. I had a high-school teacher, whose name I still remember, who called me Jew-boy, manhandled me and sneered that if I didn't like it, I should get myself a Jewish lawyer. In Canada in the fifties, I applied for jobs that the gentile kids being interviewed all around me got, but I was told I wasn't qualified.

But as I said above, I was fortunate. I absorbed a few kicks, but my life was never in danger. My uncles, aunts, cousins in Hitler's Europe on the other hand -- they didn't fare quite as well.

By the way, no violins required: I am happy and doing fine in the greatest country ever and one that treats its Jews very well. But the Jews did well in many countries over the centuries -- for awhile. Then things would change. In a commodities-trading class (no I didn't get rich -- I almost lost my shirt!) I once took, the teacher kept repeating: "NEVER buck a trend!" Jew-hatred is a 2000 year old trend.

One of the reasons I have guns is just in case this trend should re-assert itself in this time and place. Should that occur, this little Jew-boy will not be cheap to take down.


Although I'm afraid it's faltering, the tradition of freedom for all is still strong in this country. But Israel is a different case. Israel is a haven for Jews and surrounded by millions of Arabs who salivate to annihilate her. We in the States experienced a bit of their sentiment on 9/11.

The Jews and the Palestinians cannot live in peace. If you bother to learn the history of the region, you'll learn that many Arab nations hate each other --do not live in peace with each other for long, either.

Gentiles unsympathetic to Israel's plight I can handle. What really gets to me is all the liberal, head-in-the-sand Jews who criticize her for defending herself.


And CZ-75, invidious comparisons to the Nazis aside, I don't believe that Israeli Jews can survive with Palestinians in their midst. You don't like the rules Rabbi Kahane had for them? I'll give you worse: what he really aimed for was separation. Let their Arab brothers have them.

CZ-75, for you to critisize Israel is a luxory. It is the Israelis who must take the consequences of stupid, liberal, make-nice policies. If you close your eyes to the hard realities faced by Israel and choose to compare her with the Nazis, you are not alone. Much of the world loves to hate the Jews. If you call Rabbi Kahane a Jewish nut for facing up to reality, then I am proud to be a Jewish nut, too.

Unpretty as it may be, I am with Rabbi Kahane and his followers, who advocate separation. If Israel doesn't face up to this hard reality, her survival is uncertain, at best.

Am Israel Chai (the Jewish people live)!

Matis

[CZ-75]

In a commodities-trading class (no I didn't get rich -- I almost lost my shirt!)

A good way to make a small fortune in commodities is to start with a large one.

;)


You don't like the rules Rabbi Kahane had for them? I'll give you worse: what he really aimed for was separation. Let their Arab brothers have them.

Back of the bus, towelhead?

Strangers in the land they've settled for the past millennium?

Perhaps we should restrict Hispanics and blacks in the US because they have higher birth and/or immigration rates? We'd still be a democracy by your definition. :rolleyes:

[MeekandMild]

And yet the esteemed sysadmin of this forum, my friend Derek Zeenah, a patriot of America, a veteran of the US armed forces who doesn't, as far as I know, oppress his wife or any other women, does do a great deal for your RKBA and mine (including giving his time, skills and money to the cause) is a Moslem faithful. Sure, I'd bet he is just as kind and sweet tempered as my friend/colleague Ali. But neither Derek nor Ali was the person who said True Muslims can never accept the supremacy of another human being's actions over them. Only almighty Allah is supreme. And therein lies the central conflict.

And therein lies the central confict.

[matis]

Quote by CZ-75:
____________________________________________________

Back of the bus, towelhead?

Strangers in the land they've settled for the past millennium?

Perhaps we should restrict Hispanics and blacks in the US because they have higher birth and/or immigration rates? We'd still be a democracy by your definition.
____________________________________________________

1) You're sure right about the way to a small fortune.

2) Blacks and Hispanics don't blow themselves up among innocent American women, children and men. Palestinians do that to Israelis with tragic regularity. Blew up another bus today, in Haifa, this time. Killed 15, wounded 40. "Wounded" in such circumstance often means limbs blown off.

3) I don't want the Palestinian in the back of the bus. I believe they must be gotten OFF THE ISRAELI BUS altogether. The religious right in Israel don't advocate the massacre of Palestinians or brutally driving them out, as the Palestinians plan for us. What they DO advocate is to BUY them out -- to pay them for their property and for leaving, so they can have a stake in whatever country they end up in. The Jews have been buying land from Arabs for over a century. Who but the Jews would even consider something like that? That wasn't exactly how their brethren, the Syrians or the Jordanians did it. But go they must.

4) I don't believe in democracy. Someone on the TFL had a signature line: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for supper...." Democracy destroys a society as surely as socialism does. For the US and most countries, I believe in a constitutional republic.

For Israel I don't. It is not because the Jews are different or better, somehow. But rather Israel must have a form of government that preserves the Jewish character of the nation. Or they will not survive. This is forced upon them by the bitter experience of the Jews at the tender mercies of the gentiles of the world. That 2000 year old trend, remember? Israel must preserve its Jewish character or it will not long be a haven for Jews, nor will it survive at all.

As for comparing Israeli efforts at self-defence to the Nazis, it is THE ARABS who collaborated with the Nazis in WWII. Have you forgotten about the Mufti of Jeruslaem and many other Arab leaders? Their schools and media still preach the most virulent Jew-hatred unremittingly, they teach the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION as if it were true -- and they hold Hitler in high regard. Funny thing: I've been eating matzos all my life. Yet I never -- not even once! -- killed a Christian or Muslim child for its blood to make my Matzos

5) There has been a Jewish presence in Jerusalem and in Palestine uninterruptedly since biblical times.

The Torah refers to Jerusalem many, many times (49? 100? I don't remember, but many times). The Koran mentions Jerusalem NOT ONE TIME. They can have Mecca and Medina. We will never again give up Jerusalem.

Again, CZ-75, if these sentiments make me a "Jewish nut", then I happily claim the title. We need, in my opinion, many, many more such nuts.

Matis

[braindead0]

Blacks and Hispanics don't blow themselves up among innocent American women, children and men.

Ah, but "they" kill innocents during drive by shootings on a regular basis, are statistically responsible for more crime..etc..etc..

A case could be made for terrorism here, and lets not forget the whacko white 'Christians' who kill doctors.....

[cordex]

I've been eating matzos all my life. Yet I never -- not even once! -- killed a Christian or Muslim child for its blood to make my Matzos
Mmmmm ... unleavened breadalicious.

The article was amusing.
Gave the impression: "We really want to stop flying aircraft into your buildings, but you won't let us."

[Oleg Volk]

True Muslims can never accept the supremacy of another human being's actions over them. Only almighty Allah is supreme. And therein lies the central conflict.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


And therein lies the central confict.

Am I missing the point...or does this sound like the view of most Americans? I, for one, don't acknowledge supermacy of any human over me. "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" isn't taken to heart by most folks I know, be they religious or not. And efforts to establish supermacy over another person are usually viewed as an effort to enslave others.

So we can say that Allah or God or individual free will guides us, as opposed to the will of another human. Seems to me the main difference is phrasing and the degree to which the sentiment is taken literally...and that difference is as great between Christian sects as it is between Islamic sects and other religions.

[DaveB]

True Americans can never accept the supremacy of another human being's actions over them. Only almighty God is supreme. And therein lies the central conflict.

Why is it that this phrase has been used as an example of why we need to 'go in ' to Iraq, and why this article is 'against us'?

KK writes It is as if the American government does not recognize the equality of man outside its own borders.

I wonder what makes him say that…

db

[T.Stahl]

Studies show that more than 50% of the Muslims living in Germany think that the Koran is incompatible with our constitution.
How many of the Muslims living in America think that the Koran is compatible with yours?

[DaveB]

How many of the Muslims living in America think that the Koran is compatible with yours?

No idea.

John Ashcroft also has problems squaring the Constitution with his religion.

db

[CZ-75]

There has been a Jewish presence in Jerusalem and in Palestine uninterruptedly since biblical times.

Significantly reduced, though, since the Diaspora.


The religious right in Israel don't advocate the massacre of Palestinians or brutally driving them out, as the Palestinians plan for us. What they DO advocate is to BUY them out -- to pay them for their property and for leaving, so they can have a stake in whatever country they end up in. The Jews have been buying land from Arabs for over a century. Who but the Jews would even consider something like that?

I'd agree with buying what you take, but the problem is this has been employed only selectively.



I don't believe in democracy. Someone on the TFL had a signature line: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for supper...." Democracy destroys a society as surely as socialism does. For the US and most countries, I believe in a constitutional republic.

I believe in a constitutional republic that is democratically elected through popular suffrage. Republics can be created by oligarchies (Roman patrician and equestrian classes, White male christian property owners, etc.).


Israel must have a form of government that preserves the Jewish character of the nation.

Germany must have a form of government that preserves the German character of the nation.

it is THE ARABS who collaborated with the Nazis in WWII. Have you forgotten about the Mufti of Jeruslaem and many other Arab leaders? Their schools and media still preach the most virulent Jew-hatred unremittingly, they teach the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION as if it were true -- and they hold Hitler in high regard.

I know, but the Muslims have often let Jews practice their religion freely, including the past thousand years that they've ruled Palestine, during which, as you said, there has always been a Jewish presence. Jews have held offices of respect in Muslim ruled lands as well. In fact, Muslims have been far more benevolent toward Jews than Christians have.

That Muslim Arabs have become so filled with hatred toward Jews is recent and says a good deal about the anger and injustice they feel. Russians wrote the "PROTOCOLS," not Arabs.

I've been eating matzos all my life. Yet I never -- not even once! -- killed a Christian or Muslim child for its blood to make my Matzos

Mazel Tov!

I think they taste like cardboard and can only eat the garlic or onion ones, so long as I put them in my scrambled eggs first. They are at their best as matzo balls in chicken soup.

I prefer kosher corned beef (served non-kosher w/ swiss on pumpernickle with Gulden's mustard and with a latke, like at Izzy Kadetz in Cincinnati) or sable fish.

[Frohickey]

I prefer kosher corned beef (served non-kosher w/ swiss on pumpernickle with Gulden's mustard and with a latke, like at Izzy Kadetz in Cincinnati) or sable fish

What? :confused: No Spaghetti and Meatballs MRE, washed down with artificially flavored Grape drink and with dehydrated apples?

[Russ]

This was probably ghost written by Martin Sheen and Mike Farrell to make us fear the consequences of war with Iraq. If more Bin Ladens are created out of this then the CIA and FBI will have fun hunting them down and killing them.

[MeekandMild]

Yes, Oleg, you are missing the point.

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land....(Quran; Surah 5:33)

...Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who takes them for friends is one of them. Lo! Allah guides not these wrongdoing people. (Quran Surah 5:51)

...beware of them lest they seduce you from some part of that which Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away know that Allah's will is to smite them...(Quran; Surah 5:49)

And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can overcome. Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all you can by armed force...(Quran; Surah 8:59-60a)

...slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare to ambush them. But if they repent and establish [Islamic] worship...their way is free. Lo! Allah is forgiving and Merciful. (Quran; Surah 9:5)

...Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them...(Quran; Surah 9:73)

"You shall not kill a man whom God has forbidden you to kill, except for a just cause." The Night Journey 17:~33

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." The Cow 2:216

"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whoever fights for the cause of God, whether he dies or triumphs, on him We shall bestow a rich recompense." Women 4:74

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate"
Sovereignity (66) #9

"Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.' For the Messiah himself said: 'Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord.' He that worships other deities besides God, God will deny him Paradise, and the Fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers. Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." The Table #71-

"When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until War has laid down her burdens."
Muhammad (47) #4

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Repentance (9) #5.

"Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and his apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." Repentance (9) #28

"Therefore do not falter or sue [or call] for peace when you have gained the upper hand" Mohammad (47) #34


It is NOT the will of the creator but rather the something else filtered through the sieve of the Koran.

[MeekandMild]

Oleg,

Of course true believers know that there is no way of translating the sublime truths of the Holy Koran. So this is just a human commentary, fraught with mistakes.

"Unbelievers are those who do not judge according to God's revelations. We decreed for them a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and a wound for a wound" The Table #43-

"He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will surely be among the losers" The Imrans #85

"Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them." Repentance (3)#23

"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends1. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers." The Table (5) #51. (Response 1, 2)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Victory 48:29

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They [the unbelievers] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal." The Imrans 3:118

"Because of their iniquity, We forbade the Jews wholesome things which were formerly allowed them; because time after time they have debarred others from the path of God; because they practice usury - although they were forbidden from it - and cheat others of their possessions." Women #159

"You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans..." The Table (2) #81

"Say: 'People of the Book', is it not that you hate us only because we believe in God and in what has been revealed to us and to others before, and because most of you are evil-doers?'" The Table (5) #58

"The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say! By no means. His hands are both outstretched: He bestows as He will" The Table (5) #64

"The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of God. Such are their assertions, by which they imitate the infidels of old. God confound them! How perverse they are!" Repentance (9) #29

"... We have stirred among them [The Jews] enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle the fire of war, God puts it out. They spread evil in the land, but God does not love the evil-doers." The Table (5) #65

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures." The Proof (Al-Bayyinah - 98) #5

:what:

[Oleg Volk]

Sounds like the Old Testament, as far as the style goes. But I must admit that I am not much of a religious scholar...I just wonder if taking the Koran literally is misguided...whether done by observers or by believers.

Whatever my predispositions are, I am hard-pressed to reconcile the alleged bloodthursty aspects of Islam (and traditional Christianity) with the examples of the adherents of those faiths whom I personally know and who tend to be peaceful, pleasant people. They aren't a random sample, obviously, but they do represent a sizable number of counter-examples.

What's wrong with simply calling the evil "evil" or "sociopathic" and not labeling them by their religion or race or country of origin? The broader labels are painfully inexact and include so many uninvolved people as to invite errors of fried/foe identification.

[Tamara]

Any Christian who cites bloodthirsty or xenophobic verses from the Koran is really leading with his jaw... :rolleyes:

[MeekandMild]

Whatever my predispositions are, I am hard-pressed to reconcile the alleged bloodthursty aspects of Islam (and traditional Christianity) with the examples of the adherents of those faiths whom I personally know and who tend to be peaceful, pleasant people. They aren't a random sample, obviously, but they do represent a sizable number of counter-examples.

What's wrong with simply calling the evil "evil" or "sociopathic" and not labeling them by their religion or race or country of origin? The broader labels are painfully inexact and include so many uninvolved people as to invite errors of fried/foe identification.

Well, obviously most of the folk we know are not bloodthirsty sociopaths out to wreak havoc, after all we do live in a civilized country. (And you've probably seen by now the southern part of the country is especially polite and benign, heavily influenced as it is by the Judeochristian ethic.) :D

The source of Christianity, the teachings of Jesus Christ is not at all as bloodthirsty as is the source of Islam. One would have a hard time finding any reference to human retribution in the words of Christ.

Bloodthirsty Christians are generally accepted to have fallen away from the teachings of the Word and have nothing in the teachings of christ to support their behavior...unlike Islam.

[Oleg Volk]

I was referring to the Old Testamnt.

the teachings of Jesus Christ is not at all as bloodthirsty

Anyhow, I don't think that Christian faith was the cause (rather, a convenient excuse) for the Crusades...similarly, people who commit crimes and claim divine guidance by Allah are lying. But that doesn't mean that all or even most of those who take Allah seriously commit or endorse crimes.

[LostOneToo]

I still think we should pull every US serviceman back inside the US borders and totally cut off ALL funding to the rest of the world and let them see how well they fare without our assistance.

Everyone wants our money and food but they also want to belittle us and bitch & moan when we try to do something to make the world a better place.

So, circle the wagons, close the borders and let the rest of the world play dog-eat-dog.:cuss:

[Freedspeak]

To be straight forward, I am a minority faith, many Christians and Moslems would say ( by their books) that I am not fit to live. I know many of each faith that concider me a person that follows the tenets of their faiths. ( As my wife said to me when we talked of this we should follow what is trully within the heart).

Lostonetwo

Wasn;t that what the founders originaly intended: trade partners with all and allies with none! Atruely Libertarian view!

[EJ]

No religion is evil in and of itself and no religion is perfect--

The Bible // Koran // Whatever is a translation by man doomed to the inaccuracies held by that species--
NOTHING is perfect--


That said -- The Muslim religion seems a lot more prone to inciting violence and holy war on others--



:rolleyes:



Why do we care--

about--
"One muslim's View"


I don't care about anyone's view--
I care about their actions --
Right now a significant number of the adherants to the Muslim "View" have attacked and killed innocents AND/ OR support that evil--
That's what matters--- actions not words--
That is what we are responding to--
That is what must be stopped // destroyed--
To make our world safer-- if only a little bit -- It is worth the cost

[matis]

said by PC-75
___________________________________________________

I think they taste like cardboard and can only eat the garlic or onion ones, so long as I put them in my scrambled eggs first. They are at their best as matzo balls in chicken soup
___________________________________________________

Good, good, fine, but you are evading the point: how many gentile children did you kill for their blood to make your onion or garlic matzos?

quote:
___________________________________________________

Russians wrote the "PROTOCOLS," not Arabs.
___________________________________________________

So? Those familiar with the protocols usually know that. The point is that, although the Protocols are again circulating in the former Soviet Union, they are not made a part of their school curriculum.

In most Arab countries and in Egypt they are. The schools teach their children that the Protocols are true, as well as pumping them full of hatred for Jews, Israelis and Americans.

Quote:
___________________________________________________

Germany must have a form of government that preserves the German character of the nation.
___________________________________________________

Again, an invidous comparasison. How can you compare a racist Nazi Germany in quest of European and World domination with a tiny, beseiged Israel, struggling to survive the hatred of the hundreds of millions of Arabs surrounding her, who pant for her annihilation?

Quote:
__________________________________________________

That Muslim Arabs have become so filled with hatred toward Jews is recent and says a good deal about the anger and injustice they feel.
__________________________________________________

Could their hatred have anything to do with their having been pent up in refugee camp squalor and misery and without hope -- by their loving Arab brethren, so as to form the point on the Arab spear against Israel and the Jews?

Could their hatred be inflamed by the brilliant Jewish success in building a relatively affluent and democratic society, in so short a time (and without oil riches), surrounded by the many Arab societies mired in poverty and tyranny, except for their elites? Do not these elites divert attention from their tyranny over their Arab populations by constantly fanning their hatred for Jews and Israel?

Should we forgive those who gave us 9/11 because the poor darlings "have become filled with hatred ... and feelings of anger and injustice ..." against the Great Satan, we Americans?


And anyway, PC-75, what would you propose that Israel do to assure her survival. Or do you give a d-mn?

The Oslo "Peace Accords" were foredoomed by their feel-good, land-for-peace, let's be friends with our enemies stupidity. They led inevitably to the OSLO WAR raging in Israel now. When Israel would absorb no more daily suicide bombings, shootings and knifings by Arab infiltrators, often abetted by Israeli Arab citizens (!!), she took the war to the West Bank and Gaza -- to the backyards of the terrorists, instead of numbly enduring these atrocities in pre-1967 Israel.

Now, all who were silent at her previous agony, silent when Syria and Jordan and other Arab countries brutally ejected THEIR Palestinians killing thousands of them in the process, now all these compassionate seekers of justice have come out of the woodwork to condemn Israel.

There is an unfortunately small but nevertheless growing sentiment within and without Israel to face up to what must be done: heed Rabbi Meir Kahane's prophetic call for separation.

Kahane rightly taught that trying to curry favor with the Gentiles, to accord too much concern to the world's opinion of her, would consign Israel to another holocaust. Personally, I would rather be compared to the Nazis, than be exterminated and burned to ashes in their crematoria -- or have my organs torn out and held aloft in the bloody hands of the Arab killers for their enlightened compatriots to cheer (you've no doubt seen the photos?)

Had Israel annexed the territories after the 1967 war, forced upon her by her blood-thirsty Arab enemies, and had she then separated the populations, the furor of the "compassionate seekers of justice" would long since have faded and Israel would be more secure in her borders and her future much better assured.

In 1981, after much anguished, albeit secret, debate in the Knesset and high military echelons, the Israeli air-force attacked and obliterated Saddam Hussein's nuclear reactor at Osirik.

The world howled and indulged itself in orgies of self-righteous (and selective) condemnation of Israel.

A few weeks ago, President Bush, at a ceremony honoring the astronauts who died on the Shuttle Columbia, addressed words to the widow of the Israeli astronaut, Ilan Ramon (who had flown on the Osirik mission). He said to her, "... what your husband started at Osirik, we shall finish...."

So come out and declare yourself PC-75. If you have concern for the survival of Israel and the Jews, let's hear YOUR real, harsh reality solutions, instead of your cavilling (sp?) criticisms.

But if you are just another Israel/Jew hater (there are many such among those who like latkes and even some who were born Jewish), then intelligent Jews who are willing to face Israel's tough choices (and other people of good will concerned about Israel), will know to (watchfully) ignore you.

Matis








___________________________________________________

[Oleg Volk]

Looks like this topic is ripe for splitting into several different threads.