'HOT' 32 acp ammo


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telewinz
December 30, 2002, 07:30 PM
Within the next month I will be getting a Kel-Tec P32 pistol. Size and the locked breech are my main reasons. However I want to take full advantage of the P32's ability to operate at higher pressures/velocities to make the .32acp more effective for self- defense. Whats the hottest load available over the counter or do I need to pull the bullets and charge the cases myself with Bullseye powder? Ammo would not be for range use so wear and tear would not be a factor.

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Coltdriver
December 30, 2002, 08:11 PM
Check out this ammo:

www.rbcd.net

It is loaded at standard pressures, law enforcement all over the country is buying it and the real life stories behind it are incredible.

If you do a look up over at www.thefiringline.com there is some testimony from real field use on hogs and dogs. There is also some testimony for experimentation with other inanimate objects that is pretty incredible.

W.Va.Glassman
December 30, 2002, 09:44 PM
Around here alot of people are useing Win. Silvertip or RWS.So far I have not had any trouble with rim-loc.

GoldenLoki
December 31, 2002, 01:59 AM
It just so happens I have given the question of "which .32acp ammo is best" a bit of consideration.


Here is a link to what I found:

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm

My P32 is loaded with Fiocchi FMJ. Main reasons:

Reliability, FMJ feed well, no issue of rims getting locked due to semi-rim design of .32acp and shorter OAL of JHP.

Penetration. JHPs either did not expand well, or if they did, did not penetrate enough.

Price and availability, cheap enough so I practice with it a lot and easy to get locally.

GL

duncan
December 31, 2002, 02:27 AM
Ditto on GoldenLoki's tip.

My P-32 only carries hot FMJ's and right now I carry Fiocchi FMJ as well.

Geco looks great too.

Anybody selling you hollowpoints in 32 acp just doesn't "understand" that if you can't penetrate 12 inches with at least 450 fpe, those hollowpoints may not expand. All that fancy ultra fast stuff is just going to piss off an attacker instead of getting him/her to stop, drop, and flee.

So with the HPs, they lose much of their energy digging into the target with a clogged HP. Look at GoldenLoki's data.

Cops at my range won't carry HPs in 32 ACP because of tags on perps with leather jackets that deflected the Hydrashoks in 32 ACP.

FMJ becuase penetration is all you really have.

David Scott
December 31, 2002, 09:42 AM
We tried RCBD in Thelma's P32, but it didn't feed consistently. Our carry load for that gun is Cor-Bon 60 gr. JHP. Advertised velocity is 1050 FPS. The Kel-Tec may get a bit more speed because, unlike most .32s, it's a locked breech design.

BHP9
December 31, 2002, 10:13 AM
I have used Win. silver tips but also have loaded my own ammo using the Hornady hollow points that I believe weighed about 60 some grains. I used red dot powder and also have tried bulleye. Both worked rather well.

One note of advice on defense ammo.

Wether you shoot reloads or shoot factory ammo I always put a drop of ployeurethane varnish on the primer and I paint it around the juncture of the bullet and case mouth to oil and water proof the round. NO factory ammo I have ever used was entirely water or oil proof but after using the polyurethane treatment I was able to soak the rounds in oil and they still all fired flawlessly.

tbeb
December 31, 2002, 12:07 PM
I would use the Winchester Silvertip 60 gr. JHP (or Corbon 60 gr. JHP) if it is 100% reliable in your pistol. I use Speer Gold Dot in my .32 Walther because the above ammunition was not 100% reliable.

Invisible Swordsman
December 31, 2002, 04:04 PM
I settled on S&B fmj for my P-32, primarily for feed reliability. I did encounter rimlock once with hollow points, and it was a bear to clear the magazine. I have had 100% reliability so far with the S&B rounds. Their website shows 1000 fps for this round. I chronographed a mag full and got between 960 & 1000 fps. I doubt I can improve on that with anything else.

Mark

Jeff OTMG
January 1, 2003, 03:44 AM
RBCD 32 ACP is a 37 gr. , TFSP at 1815 fps / 271 flbs with 8" of penetration, although GoldenLoki shows 11.4". duncan, I don't know how you are built, but I have a BUNCH of vital parts of my body within 8" of my skin, including by brain, throat, spine at the throat, heart, both lungs, kidneys, liver, and a much of other things that I don't want a hole in. Remember, most of us are not cops, so the parameters set forth by the almighty FBI as being the gospel for cops does not necessarily apply to the rest of us. I don't find 12" of penetration necessary, but Loki only puts me a half inch short.

So your comment: 'All that fancy ultra fast stuff is just going to piss off an attacker instead of getting him/her to stop, drop, and flee.' I don't buy it. Loki showed the RBCD doing 1434 fps, yet the Fiocchi FMJ is only going 859 fps. I think I will piss off my attacker with RBCD, you go ahead and piss yours off with FMJ.

Dave R
January 1, 2003, 04:10 AM
Doesn't someone make a flat-top .32 round? That might be an interesting compromise between FMJ and JHP. Anyone try that?

DMK
January 2, 2003, 12:06 AM
I use RWS and S&B in my CZ-70. Not only is it noticably hotter than the U.S. made stuff I've tried, but it's more accurate as well.

I like Fiocci too, but don't trust HPs in this caliber even though my trusty CZ has never bobbled..

okeydoke
January 3, 2003, 01:21 AM
have a 16 oz, 6", single stack 9mm (Kahr PM) you really want to settle for having 1/4 as much power? The 9mm is feeble enough, if you ever really need to stop someone (as vs bluff him, without having to shoot him.) The PM is as carryable as your wallet. Just get a front pants pocket holster, and velcro on both the rig and each pants pocket and coat pocket in which it will be carried. Load it with PlusP CorBon 90 gr jhp's, 1450 fps in that 3" barrel, 400 ft lbs, and real expansion of the jhp. There's no reason in the world to settle for less of a carry gun or load.

Blackhawk
January 3, 2003, 02:23 AM
GoldenLoki, I'm honored to be on the same forum with you! :D

FMJ in my P-32 as well.

Big Al
January 3, 2003, 05:44 PM
Fiocchi FMJ for my P32 too:)

Jaco
January 16, 2003, 04:54 AM
I carry the South African made 75gr PMP FMJ in my PPK. The company rates it at 945/188 at the muzzle.

I am certainly not the best informed on firearms, but don’t you want the heaviest FMJ bullet (irrespective of velocity) for maximum penetration, and the fastest HP for expansion? Or do I have this whole thing wrong?

According to my dealer there is now a new .32ACP HP on the market with some unpronounceable name, made in Czechoslovakia. Does anyone know about this?

Michigun
January 16, 2003, 08:30 AM
When I "carry" my Kel-Tec P-32, it's also loaded with Fiocchi's 73 grain FMJ ammo.

My Kahr PM9 is currently settled with Federal's 124 grain +p EFMJ... needless to say, my P-32 doesn't see anymore "primary carry". ;)

Kentucky Rifle
January 16, 2003, 10:02 AM
RBCD is what is in my Seecamp and Guardian. Even though it's never happened to me, the "rim-lock talk" kinda freaks me out. (Mr. Murphy and all.) So I do use the longer Fiocchi FMJ's in my P-32. If Kel-Tec ever gets those dedicated HP mags out, you can bet I'll have RBCD in the P-32 also!

KR

teppo-shu
January 16, 2003, 08:32 PM
Another vote for Fiocchi. FMJ only.

Gold-Dots or Hydra-shoks or whatever are just a waste of money in the P32.

CWL
January 16, 2003, 09:38 PM
FMJ for me as well. I'm not as choosy on brands as long as it's FMJ.

Duncan summarised it the best, so I'll just ditto what he said.

Ghost Walker
October 19, 2008, 06:59 PM
How about Buffalo Bore?

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#32ACP

I'm thinking about it. I just don't want to ruin my Tom Cat.

Mark whiz
October 19, 2008, 07:49 PM
For Factory loads, I too would go with the Corbons, Win Silvertips, or Gold Dots.

Personally I started loading my own with 60 gr XTPs and Gold Dots
3.1gr of Hod Universal Clays for XTPs and 2.6gr of IMR 700X for Gold Dots.

JR47
October 19, 2008, 07:50 PM
Anybody selling you hollowpoints in 32 acp just doesn't "understand" that if you can't penetrate 12 inches with at least 450 fpe, those hollowpoints may not expand. All that fancy ultra fast stuff is just going to piss off an attacker instead of getting him/her to stop, drop, and flee.

That leaves most self-defense loads out of the picture. Ever seen ANY .38 Special load with 450 fpe? How about a 9mm load in a short-barreled gun? Where do these people come up with these "facts"??

Does anyone here know the theory behind the 12" minimum penetration? Not the "experts all say it" mumbo-jumbo, but the actual science. Before we worry about photos of calibration, temperature variables, and anything else, what method of scientifically repeatable means was used to determine the 12" figure? Odd, also, that the scientists arrived at exactly 12" as a minimum, and not 11.87", or 12.44".

People constantly quote this as an accepted fact, because the FBI announced that this was what they had DECIDED upon. Yet, the FBI never explained exactly how that criterion was arrived at. The actual meetings and seminars that lead to the FBI tests NEVER resulted in a cohesive, or even majority, opinion about the various sections of the test.

It always seemed funny that the same people who had such derision for Marshall & Sanow evidently arrived at their own mandated criterion via experience, instead of scientific analysis. Sort of the pot calling the kettle black.

Ghost Walker
October 20, 2008, 04:28 AM
I found this paper interesting. It is written by Duncan MacPherson the well-known, 'rocket scientist' and author.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/sanow-strikes-out.htm

It addresses several of Marshall & Sanow's assertions as well as the ideal 12" theory of penetration used by the FBI.

Here's where to get MacPherson's book on this subject -

http://www.firearmstactical.com/bulletpenetration.htm

MachIVshooter
October 20, 2008, 09:31 AM
Holy dead thread! :eek:

JR47
October 20, 2008, 12:57 PM
Ghost Walker, thank you, but you'll note that there was zero scientific proof given for the 12" spec.

The probability of needing this extra penetration is a judgment call, but most sensible people believe it is a significant factor and certainly much more important than a very conjectural 1% in theoretical stopping power under ideal conditions. This is the reason the FBI specified the 12 inch minimum penetration even though they (and everybody else in the professional wound ballistics community) are well aware that an 8 inch penetration is usually adequate. Sanow (and others) may make a different judgment on this, but to describe the FBI position as "totally bogus" is both ridiculous and irresponsible.

So, they essentially agreed on the 8" minimum, but then added an arbitrary 50% for intermediate limbs and fat people? Where does that come from in supportable data?

That alone makes the FBI protocols suspect from a scientific view. They picked M&S's data apart (not Sanows alone) for lacking requisite data points, even though the books all preface the conditions that the data was used and based upon. This is, literally, the pot calling the kettle black.

While denigrating the lack of science in the M&S data, the FBI protocols are arbitrary, not scientific. The science all takes place to see that the arbitrary data points are supported. It's also interesting that there has been no follow-on research done to validate the actual data points chosen, after nearly 20 years.

Ever wonder why agencies like the old Border Patrol, and the Secret Service, never adhered to the FBI protocols, if they were so scientifically sound?

Face it, the FBI made arbitrary decisions as to performance parameters, not scientific decisions. They then announced them, and proceeded to "grade" ammunition based on those arbitrary standards. As their, and many other Police agencies ammunition requirements were based on these arbitrary standards, the manufacturers had no choice but to make ammunition that passed the specific tests in order to sell to them.

It's an interesting saga, especially with all of the jargon used to defend the standards, not what caused the standards. GIGO is right.

Ghost Walker
October 20, 2008, 07:31 PM
:) What can I say? (You're corresponding with someone who despises 90% of the JHP ammo that's presently on the market.) The handgun bullet that will NOT pass-through the target has yet to be invented. Like MacPherson, I'm a great believer in the effects of tissue crush and flattened point configuration.

I am aware of dozens of failures to stop with JHP ammunition; and, I don't care what the laboratory penetration depth might be. Every time a shooter fires off his pistol there's a danger that the bullet is not going to perform as expected. My own solution is, 'crush, penetration, and core hits' with as big a chunk of lead as I'm able to fire quickly and accurately. I am, also, a strong proponent of repetitive fire. (I haven't fired a single shot from a combat pistol in years!)

The best, and only, true pass-through safeguard I know of is Cooper's Safety Rule #4; and, I always practice to lineup and angle for it. If you've got it, take the shot; if you don't, then, try to hold your fire! If you're not absolutely certain try to angle the shot: up, down, or sideways.

Yes, I realize this is too much to expect from an average pistolero. Most shooters simply aren't trained to think or react this way. I carry FMJ ammo; I'm not average; but, I am moral; and, I've conditioned myself to act like this whenever I point a pistol. ;)

96wa6
February 5, 2009, 06:03 PM
I don't know if anyone else has chronoed .32s, but I did with Winchester White Box (Mil style) FMJ and RWS FMJ I got a while back (3 years?) from a surplus outfit. I chronoed because the RWS made my Walther PP kick like a .41 mag. Chronoed on a fall day, about 65 degrees, chrono 3 feet from muzzle.

Win. White Box: avg. 10 shots 860 fps

RWS: avg. 10 shots 1050 fps(!!!!!!!!!!!!) that's 22% faster!

Then I tried it in my KelTec K32. No increase in kick from Whitebox. Gotta love the locked breech.

DO NOT USE RWS in Beretta Tom Cats. Those are a little light to begin with and had (don't know if they still do) a 1000-rd. service life.

I gave a box of RWS to each friend who has a K32. We save it for defense loads, since I can't seem to find it any more.

jon_in_wv
February 5, 2009, 10:50 PM
When I carried a P32 I used to load the top round of the mag with the Fiocchi 60gr JHP and the rest with Fiocchi 73gr ball. They both were hot for a 32 and both shot to the same point of aim. The chance of rimlock is too great to use JHP in the whole mag without modifying the mags for them.

slowanimation
February 17, 2009, 10:59 AM
So often do nice threads degrade into this argument or discussion whichever you prefer seems to occur. It is very simple to me why a .32 is a perfect carry pistol and how it should be applied. Use the following rules and be sensible.

1. Reliability, if it doesn't cycle, rim locks, stove pipes, etc or causes problems of any kind do not use it. A weapon that won't fire is an overpriced paperweights.

2. Liability, what is going to happen after the bullet hits the target? 12" of penetration? 14" of penetration, penetrate right on thru the guy your shooting into an innocent person and see how the jury feels about that one. So an excessive load is not needed. Why? See rule three.

3. Shot placement. Shoot them in the head and make it a double tap. Nothing excessive just two small holes, with a reliable FMJ at a reasonable velocity. Your aggressor will fall down and die shortly there after, this is optimum. He can't sue you if he's dead (this day and age it happens) and the jury won't go nuts on you like they will if you unloaded your whole clip into the poor guys chest and then started pistol whipping him because he just wouldn't die. Don't aim center mass with a .32. My personal opinion is don't aim center mass in almost any handgun fight.

4. Practice practice practice. If you have ever shot some larger caliber pocket pistols this concept of practice is not enjoyable. If I want to shoot a 9mm I grab my G17 not a tiny little pocket rocket. I put a few hundred round down range daily and a 9 mm pocket pistol and hundreds of rounds is just stupid if you aske me.

So why is the .32 a perfect pocket caliber? Low recoil makes for ease of shooting, and easier second shot placement. Makes for a light gun that you will carry and it draws quickly. A .45 at home vs. a .32 in your pocket which one wins? A .32 in the face with a quick draw or a .45 in the chest on a slow draw? Ok I'm done ranting. One last thing... aim for the head...

outerlimit
February 17, 2009, 01:42 PM
Fiocchi's 73gr. FMJ is an excellent choice for .32acp. Their 60gr. HP is not a terrible choice either. I'm not much of a .32 auto fan, but I wish they made a 73gr. HP round.

I can't think of any .32acp rounds from other major manufactures that are self defense worthy as all are loaded pretty weak and have light weight hollowpoints. Most of the other good ones are made by smaller ammunition companies like Buffalo Bore, Corbon and RBCD.

MICHAEL T
February 17, 2009, 03:19 PM
Anybody selling you hollowpoints in 32 acp just doesn't "understand" that if you can't penetrate 12 inches with at least 450 fpe, those hollowpoints may not expand. All that fancy ultra fast stuff is just going to piss off an attacker instead of getting him/her to stop, drop, and flee.

That 450 leaves out a lot of 45acp to.
My father was in a disagreement with a guy He shot my father with a 32 auto . Who really lost interest in the disagreement after that
I carry Corbon im our 32 kel Tec's if I must use ball S&B has proven relieable in mine. FBI said 10" moved to 12 after miami shoot out belive border Patrol still at 10 " If 12" is all important then use a 25 auto it has gone 16+ in the jell. neets FBI But people will now find a different excuse can't carry a 25 now can we.

GRIZ22
February 17, 2009, 04:05 PM
If you feel you need a +P or +P+ 32 ACP why don't you go to a 380.

Ammo would not be for range use so wear and tear would not be a factor.


If your slide blew off in a fight wear and tear would certainly be a factor.

RBCD 32 ACP is a 37 gr. , TFSP at 1815 fps / 271 flbs with 8" of penetration, although GoldenLoki shows 11.4"

I'm sure that penetration is in ballsitic gel but I would have my doubts about that 37 gr bullet penetrating anything hard and having much left in it. That bullet won't likely penetrate that rodeo belt buckle or the gangbanger's large metal cross.

My choice would be the same as GoldenLoki's. Trying to make a 32 into something it's not is futile and can be dangerous.

KBintheSLC
February 17, 2009, 04:12 PM
How about Buffalo Bore

I second that... their 75g Hard Cast Flat Point +P 32 acp loading is awesome. I tested it against my regular carry load, the Fiocchi 73g FMJ. The BB load penetrated about 20% deeper into the test medium, and made a larger permanent wound cavity due to the semi-wadcutter design.
I am also quite fond of the Corbon 60g JHP as far as expanding ammo is concerned. I still use the Fiocchi in my mags, but the top of the stack and the chamber hold the BB 75g'ers.

Though it would not be my first choice if I KNOW I am going into combat, the 32acp makes a great CCW weapon with the right ammo.

cat9x
March 11, 2009, 11:14 AM
3. Shot placement. Shoot them in the head and make it a double tap. Nothing excessive just two small holes, with a reliable FMJ at a reasonable velocity. Your aggressor will fall down and die shortly there after, this is optimum. He can't sue you if he's dead (this day and age it happens) and the jury won't go nuts on you like they will if you unloaded your whole clip into the poor guys chest and then started pistol whipping him because he just wouldn't die. Don't aim center mass with a .32. My personal opinion is don't aim center mass in almost any handgun fight.

I consider that moronic. We're talking about pocket pistols, some of which are manufactured without sights. You're not going to take time to aim for a head shot, which is a small target area to start with, you're going to shoot at the largest area, center mass. This is common sense. That whole passage screams "but I read it in a book, it must be true".

KBintheSLC
March 11, 2009, 07:07 PM
I consider that moronic. We're talking about pocket pistols, some of which are manufactured without sights. You're not going to take time to aim for a head shot, which is a small target area to start with, you're going to shoot at the largest area, center mass. This is common sense. That whole passage screams "but I read it in a book, it must be true".

Thats interesting... my P32 does have sights, and I do use them to aim. The result is a half-way decent group at 7 yards (21ft). At that range, a head shot is not that far fetched.

And no... I did not "read it in a book".

BushyGuy
August 21, 2009, 10:22 PM
i use 60 gr Winchester Silvertips in my 3032 Tomcat, they work well but is 6 to 8 inches of penetration enough to stop the bad guy? i dont like FMJ cuz they dont have a good SD and no crush cavitation in a fmj like a Silvertip.

benderx4
August 22, 2009, 12:56 AM
My Seecamp loves to eat any of the following:

Winchester Silvertips
Hornady XTPs
Speer Gold Dot

I plan on giving that Fiocchi a try when I can find some.

outerlimit
August 22, 2009, 05:31 PM
i use 60 gr Winchester Silvertips in my 3032 Tomcat, they work well but is 6 to 8 inches of penetration enough to stop the bad guy? i dont like FMJ cuz they dont have a good SD and no crush cavitation in a fmj like a Silvertip.

Hmmm.. 'maybe'. I'd be suspect of their ability to pass through ribs/breastplate in order to incapacitate an attacker. .32/.380 is just not the way to go IMO. A bare minimum gun should at least be a sub-compact 9x19.

cocojo
August 23, 2009, 10:29 AM
I carry either RWS or FN flat nose fmj. I like the flat nose style bullet alot.
You have to get in deep enough to do damage where it counts, and it seems no company has come out with an HP that does that yet. I would like to see 32 acp in the critical defense line of ammo. I would settle for 10 inch min but no less than that, I like deeper.

-v-
August 23, 2009, 01:02 PM
If I recall, S&B .32ACP FMJ is the hotter/hottest stuff out there. As far as .32 goes, if you want adequate penetration, you will need to go with FMJ or FMJTC type rounds. That and .32" versus .40" diameter doesn't seem like that big a difference, but 6-8" versus 12-14" is much more noticeable. At the end of the day, have the round that can reach deep enough to do damage, worry about an extra .08" larger diameter later.

That and practice, practice, practice!

.32ACP Gel tests (http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm)

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