[harrydog]

....or so this guy says.


http://www.defensereview.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=33&t=326&st=0

Some people are just looking for an arguement I guess. :rolleyes:

[Griff]

Whatdayathink, shades of GunKid?

[Airwolf]

If shotguns are toys would you stand downrange at 40 yds. and take a load of OO buck?

http://flymeaway.net/images/anim_rofl2.gif

That pretty well sums up my response too. Geez, they sounded like a 12ga. is some sort of Nerf gun. ANY weapon takes SOME skill to use and the knowlege to apply the proper solution to the problem at hand. One size doesn't fit all.

[Smoke]

Idiots, Morons, Imbeciles, Gunsels!

Hope they don't troll over here.

:banghead: :cuss: :fire: :barf:

[Sir Galahad]

One of them was appropriately named andy"poo".

Don't ya hate it when people forget to flush?

[Gerald McDonald]

The same idiot spouted exactly the same story over on gunforums. I think he was banned, also believed he stated if you carried a revolver the only way you could safely defend yourself was to also carry grenades. A real piece of work, best to ignore him.
Gerald

[Ian]

Shotguns are worthless. What everyone really needs is a suppressed 11" AR and an assault wheelbarrow. </sarcasm> :neener:

[redneck]

Yeah.....A shotgun is slow and most of the pellets miss since it only patterns 2"-3" across at HD ranges, whereas a 9mm patterns 9mm at HD ranges so your much more likely to get a hit, especially when your looking around the the corner with a mirror figuring out exactly what angle to shoot your cast iron stove from in order for the ricochet to put the Mr. Bad Dudes eye out, but still have the proper trajectory after going through him to take out his accomplices.
Also note that a 9mm has such a mild recoil that the inexperienced can perfectly handle it by practicing with a super soaker religously. Whereas a 12 guage may have the superb stopping power to put Mr. Bad Fella through 3 layers of sheet rock, according to newtons laws, anyone but the most highly trained and weighing less than 300 lbs will be knocked backwards through exactly two and a half (2.5) somersaults, leaving you in the predicament of making a follow up shot while standing on your head.
Furthermore, a shotgun is obviously a short range weapon. Even with the mall ninja funnel choke, you can only get 80% patterns at 300 yards. That works out to approximately 4.7394 pellets hit the target. And it has clearly been proven that you need to hit with at least 4.9437 pellets in order to get the explosive one shot stop. Although the mighty .223 does launch a lighter bullet than 4.7394 pellets of buck, it travels at about mach7, and will blow a hole bigger than a five gallon bucket through Mr. Bad Guy rendering him Mr. Extremely Dead Guy. And through the wonders of bump firing you can even score multiple hits before he hits the ground, out to the rifle's effective range of 600 yards.
And finally we have to address the legal perspective when you are brought up in class action suit by the families of all 37 unfriendly fellas you caught ignoring the keep off the grass sign in your front yard. Of course a jury isn't going to sympathize with a shotgun weilding terror. Think about it, the shotgun was developed by the hunter and is an instrument of death. The gawdy wood and flashy bluing just scream that "I'm dangerous and I'm out to get you" where as the modest, flat black, anti assualt rifle, designed mainly for the sporting purpose of target shooting at long range, is obviously just a last ditch effort to save your family. An old friend, called on desperation, not designed or bought with idea of actually shooting people.

I hope you guys have now seen the light, and will change your ways. I will be happy to answer any questions on the matter that might come up, as one of my good friends knows a guy that used to be on the local SWAT team.



:neener:

[Sir Galahad]

Redneck, ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!! That's great! More! Encore! I love it!:D

[Zorro]

YES SHOTGUNS ARE WEAK!

ONLY .50 BMG will reliably stop!........TANKS!

:neener:

[Blain]

Bah.....no one should take whatever gunkid has to say seriously.....EVER! Names my change, but one can reconize his style of post miles away.

I am still of the opinion that from 1-50 yards, no better hand held anti-personal weapon exists!

[Drjones]

That guy is pretty uninformed.

In addition to his other rants, they actually DO make silencers for shotguns. :rolleyes:

Some saying about a pig comes to mind...:rolleyes:

[Dave McCracken]

Macho posturing and drivel...

Does sound like Gunkid, tho there's more than one idiot/jerk in Shotgunland.

And, posting trollcr*p like that here would lead very quickly to a warning then a ban. Life's too short, etc...

[CRUSHER]

Andypoo/yeame has been banned from defensive review

[12GA]

OMG, please don't quote this moron here! :(

[JohnBT]

Say what you will, and I've read a lot (most?) of the stuff from the old days, he's always come up with some provocative ideas from time to time on the subject of pocket pistols. And suppressors...if it talks like him...heck, read the blurb below on 600 foot pounds out of a Kahr 9mm.

John

I just found this over there:

"I was a longtime fan of the locked breech 380's, until I saw ways to get real power in a pocket auto. Today's Kahr 9mm, rechambered to 356 TSW offers twice the power of a Mustang, even a hotloaded one, yet it's plenty lw and small enough to always be in the pocket. Its 600 ftlbs,55 grs, 2200 fps, and rifle like temporary cavity damage to vital organs (not hit by the bullet itself) make it far more likely to suffice than a 300 ft lb, hot loaded Mustang. Standard 380 ammo is at BEST 200 ft lbs, and many of them, from a 2.5" barrel, barely crack 150 ft lbs. That's no better than a Stinger, from a .22 rifle. Who's impressed with THAT? It's barely enough to anchor a cottontail."

[Correia]

If a shotgun is slower to use at close range then a pistol, then you are doing something horribly wrong. :D

Slower to reload... I've yet to hear of anybody EVER needing to reload a shotgun in a defensive encounter outside of war or keeping the Indians away from the stage coach.

[redneck]

OK you guys don't seem to be taking me seriously ;)

Dave,
Respectfully from expert to another, I have to ask you to remember that your dealing with novices. It takes at least 15 years to learn enough to overcome the HUGE disadvantage of using a shotgun. And even then your only on even ground with a competent user weilding a pocket pistol. Stop leading these whippersnappers astray, and encourage them to leave off the shotguns for their single sixes. You might just save a life.... maybe of a bad guy here and there in the beginning as folks try to debug from their boomstick mentality.... but within a few months the good guys will be much better off. Just think, all this work ingraining in them the manual of arms for a shotgun could lead them to tryin to rack the barrel of their AR15, which can lead to some serious burns. The sooner we set them on the right track the sooner they can learn the right thing.
I know you have good intentions but I think your also tryin to block out your grueling days in the school of hard knocks and sore shoulders....

Now since it was brought up I suppose I should explain the advantages of the quick reload with a handgun. The one and only proper way to reload, is the tactical somersault slam method. Quite simply, you let out your banshee yell to throw Mr. scumbag off gaurd, and proceed to do a diving somersault to get behind new cover. NO YOU CANNOT STAY IN ONE PLACE, even if you are already behind good cover its not correct unless you find new cover. As you are somersaulting and screaming like a banshee, you reload your weapon by dropping the mag at the beginning of the dive, slammin the new one home midway through the somersault and then racking the slide as you land on your feet.
And HERE is the problem with the shotgun. You can't dump the mag and slam a new tube under the barrel. Nope, you have to do it one shell at a time. That leaves you in the predicament of diving back and forth from cover to cover, or in circles depending on whats available, all the time screaming like a banshee. By the time you have the tube full you will be out of breath and somewhat dizzy, making it difficult to get the next shot on target, and leaving you ill prepared for the following recoil induced backflips (see above post). There I'm glad thats out of the way. I would also suggest that you folks who insist on using scatterguns with mag extensions, take some gymnastics classes.

I think I have pretty well explained things, but again if there are any questions I can try to field them. I do know a guy that knows a guy that used to be on SWAT after all. :neener:

[Gerald McDonald]

Whew! Redneck I was worried for a minute.
Gerald

[Sir Galahad]

LOL, redneck, you've done it again! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!

[Dave McCracken]

(Wiping coffee off Monitor)....

Thanks,Redneck, that's a howler!

I'm no expert, just a journeyman and enthusiastic conduit for passing on what I've learned...

[Correia]

Redneck is right. That is how we did it in SOCSEPMODSOG MkIV. I took Mr. Redneck's class at Blunder Ranch, my class consisted of SEELS, RECON, Royal Nigerian Mounted Police elite traffic enforcement unit, and the main Tactical Assault Group of the Girl Scouts of America.

Thank you Mr. Redneck, your class was the best 2 hours of summersaulting reloading ninja fighting that I have ever done.

[blades67]

If I took a class at Blunder Ranch under Redneck's teaching, it might have been his Mall Ninja 360 class that I could have attended with some Rhodeasion Lite Infanttree (which I was in from '78 to '80 BTW), but I can't talk about it because it wouldn't available to the public because of the deadly skills that might have been taught. Besides, if I told you about it I wouldn't be allowed to take Mall Ninja 720.:neener:

[redneck]

Thank you guys for endorsing the class.

And yes blades that is correct not only would we have to block you out of further classes for disclosing too much information, I'm afraid I would have to leave you duck taped to a tree somewhere just to see how much of that survival training soaked in......after all pappy always said "nobody buys the cow when they git the milk fer free", an I gotta have students to stay in business.

Due to the success of the program so far I'm hoping to include even more for this year.
We'll still have the standard set of beginners courses including:
Playin possum- this is a very important skill, especially since the majority of you are weak, and being armed with shotguns, incapable of adequately engaging in battle yet. (one minor change, is that during the group work stage of this course where you test each others skills at playing possum, you will no longer be allowed to wear your titanium toed tactical combat boots. Yes Corriea, this IS due to your enthusiasm with this particular section. In case you were wondering, your partner contacted us last week and the bruises are healing nicely but he still has a slight limp. He doesn't hold a grudge, in fact he said the lessons he learned that day were so valuable that he doesn't feel the need to continue with any more of my training.)

Getting the most from your pocket pistol- creative interpretation of reloading manuals CAN turn your mouse gun into a moose killer.

Tactical Barn Dancin- all the moves you need to keep the bad fellers on their toes. (The somersault slam IS included!) Blades67 excelled in this section, and was an inspiration to those less graceful members who had trouble with some of the more acrobatic john woo style moves, and correia's possum partner, who had trouble standing up straight. We would ask that next time, you come wearing your tactical gear rather than dressed like Richard simmons, ok blades? Thanks

From there, you move into the actual mall ninja courses, and beyond that, if you successfully pass the good ol boy screening and psych test we will let you take some of the super top secret, extreme courses which Blades will not be telling you any more about if he knows whats good for him....

;)

[Sir Galahad]

LOL again! This would be great with some illustrations! Could be a comic book format with a cut-and-paste "dress up" mall ninja doll in the back. Has all kinds of neat accessories and weapons you can cut out and paste on him. Like M4s, tactical flashlights, reddots, tactical vests, skateboarder helmets painted black to make "tactical" helmets (has to say "tactical" on it somewhere because stealing your cousins skater helmet is cheating), tactical clothing (including tactical codpiece), tactical sunglasses (used to see these in comic books like "SGT. Rock" and "Vampirella", except they were called "X-Ray Specs), tactical underwear (impervious to infrared detection, body fluid secretion detection, X-Ray Specs, and Krypton), tactical holsters (like Maverick had except holds an approved tactical handgun), approved tactical knives in tactical sheaths with 1,500 attachment points for securing points like the legendary "under-the-butt-hut" securing point and the "around-the-John-Thomas" tactical skinnydipping attachment point and the professional operator "across the forehead" upside down but across draw, etc., etc. Kind of like a "What Will Tactical Tommy Wear Today?" layout. It could be very instructional.

[Battler]

Okay, I'm far from an expert. I've trained in handguns and shotgun (combat).

The shotgun's manual of arms can vary weapon to weapon. Jams are catastrophic. Heavy (i.e. hard hitting) loads require good stance by the user, or they may injure the user, or SERIOUSLY compromise followup shot.

Read Stressfire 2: Shotgun by Ayoob. I tend to agree with his conclusions - the shotgun can't be the primary weapon, you should count on going back to pistol after running out of ammo or a malfunction, or have to revert to pistol for room clearing.

But the incredible power of the shotgun (and ease of shooting under stress provided the room) make it a combat tool that simply cannot be ignored. Perhaps it will turn into a stick after a few rounds of buckshot.

But those few rounds of buckshot are something that can count for a lot.


Battler.

[Sir Galahad]

Well, now, if a heavy load injures the user, he's not holding the weapon right. Maybe he's pulling a deal like the pawn shop scene in "The Crow" and trying to shoot a pistol grip shotgun one handed. But if it injures you, you need to shoot the weapon more often. And learn how to hold it. Actually, it has been said that handgun accuracy is harder to master than shotgun on average.

[Dave McCracken]

After teaching a few hundred COs to shoot, I have to say that many folks find shooting a handgun well is harder that shooting a shotgun well. Some went the other way, but that's OT in this thread.

Another little bit of history, COs see a lot of scars from handgun bullets. Convicts lead nasty, violent lives on the street for the most part. In 20 years of jailin', I saw only two felons that survived shotgun wounds. One was confined to a wheelchair, the other was mobile but slowly starving to death for lack of intestines despite a 5K calorie a day diet.

[Gewehr98]

And are nothing more than toys, I'd be more than happy to take any he finds useless off his hands, I could always use a second one! :D

http://mauser98.com/870trenchsmall.jpg

[9mmMike]

I do not usually post across forums like this (that's why I hid this post in this thread) but I am having such a good time, I had to share with my friends.
http://gunspot.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=187291455&f=683295555&m=5774072551
More fun than (shooting) a barrel full of monkeys! ;)
I guess I could be off base here but that amount of wanton carnage seems slightly excessive, at least to me, especially coupled with the "I don't bother with silly rules and regulations" statements.
I am obviously also easily amused.
Mike