My FFL's wants to have me arrested...


PDA

Blueduck
March 3, 2003, 10:57 PM
Went into a new shop some time back and everybody seemed like good folks, very customer oriented telling me how happy they were to do transfers or shipping etc... So I bought a bunch of knick-knacks every visit and a fairly overpriced 4506 mainly to "Support my local dealer". Thought I'd built a good relationship , then...

Have a Ruger MKII that's giving me some light strikes, Ruger says send it back Fed-ex or UPS next day. I think "Hey the dealer can send it USPS cheaper even after a fee :) ) BUT he tells me it has to go UPS from his shop and I have to pay him $25 on top of shipping for a "tranfer fee"-grand total $64:what:

Gets real fun when I politely decline and say I'll mail it myself from UPS. He states that I cannot send a handgun anywhere UPS or any other way, that they will open the package and find out it's a handgun. I semi-politely tell him I always inform them if it's handgun by law and ship to a FFL or manufacturer next day air which is legal. Now he goes totally off "Thats not LEGAL! I'll call the ATF and they'll be there when you try it!"

I'm sorry to say blueduck lost his cool and said many things at this point... My question is frankly don't they give any type of training or information to people who become FFL's??? With my regular guy retired I've been looking around for a new "regular" and this type of utter ignorance of the laws they supposedly work under seems rampid:confused:

If you enjoyed reading about "My FFL's wants to have me arrested..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Uncle Ethan
March 3, 2003, 11:02 PM
Wow, what an ignoramus. I have a know-it-all not far from me, and I take my trade elsewhere. This guy should be blackballed for threatening you.:fire:

Triad
March 3, 2003, 11:03 PM
I think the ATF might have something to say to a dealer who wants to waste their time with something he should know is legal.

Airwolf
March 3, 2003, 11:11 PM
I would have called his bluff right there and then. Handed him the phone and said "Go ahead. I'll wait."

It would have been more than intresting to see what his reaction would have been.

I hope you told him where he could stick his FFL and made it perfectly clear that you won't be buying anymore of his overpriced stuff?

Are those in the industry *really* this stupid? I swear, the "bad to good" ratio seems to be about 5:1 sometimes.

The sound you hear is me knocking on wood. Of the few shops I've dealt with the only issue I've EVER had was the prices being high. That I can live with to keep good dealers in business.

Zundfolge
March 3, 2003, 11:31 PM
I would have said "tell you what, you call the ATF right now, if I'm right you ship this pistol for me for free ... if I'm wrong I'll pay you double to ship it". Or I'd have bet him whatever nice pistol was in the case in front of you that he's wrong and told him to pick up the phone and call the ATF right now.

Then whether or not he took you up on it I would have told him that I don't think I could do business with a licensed gun dealer who is so ignorant of the law ... maybe his next mistake would get me in trouble, and I'll be taking my business elsewhere.

CZ-75
March 3, 2003, 11:38 PM
Blueduck,

Are you in the KC area?

Just interested if it might have been a shop I've been to.


Anyhow, you're in the right and that @$$ just lost a customer.

I suggest FedEx over UPS.

Blueduck
March 3, 2003, 11:45 PM
The ATF threat was more of a joke than he knew intially as I had the local agents home phone number on me as my job puts me in contact with him occasionally ( As an agency they've made some horrible blunders but they do have some good people trying to do good work there and he's one of them).

Zundfolge, I need to be as quick witted as you :D he had some nice stuff in the case but it's gonna sit there for good as far as I'm concerned. Made uhhmm very clear I'm done with him and his shop.

UPS took my package with less problem than usual though and didn't see "John" anywhere so it worked out in the end I guess. Seriously though between this and a few other bad experiences I'm just getting sick of the whole mess and dealing with FFL's at all. Got pretty much what I need, and frankly just tired of dealing with these jerks.

Maybe I could come up with my own firearms laws test...When I go into a new shop I could have the owner fill it out and score it before I buy so much as a cleaning patch ;)

Zundfolge
March 3, 2003, 11:50 PM
Zundfolge, I need to be as quick witted as you

Its easy to be quick witted when you're sitting in front of the computer scratching your behind and sipping on a cup of coffee.

Had I been in your position I'd have probably thought of all that about half way home :p

Blueduck
March 3, 2003, 11:53 PM
CZ-75

Nah, I'm way down southeast of you, scary thought..they're multiplying :uhoh:

I'd use Fed-ex but our closest shipping station for them is 60 miles away, little mailing points around here won't take handguns or I would use them. Gotta admit thats something I like about S/W. I'm sending two guns into the preformance center later this week. You E-mail, they give you a Fed-ex number, you call them and they come to you to pick up the guns, sweet :)

samualt
March 4, 2003, 12:06 AM
The people at UPS told me that I couldn't ship a firearm....that is, they didn't want to know about it! Hehe. They told me to use one of their computers to arrange shipping, paste the label myself, and place it on the pick-up table at their store. LOL. Shipped it right to Ruger from the UPS office. There is nothing illegal about it. UPS is a little touchy about liability though. Thats what they told me.
I might add, the UPS people were real nice about it. They even showed me how to use their computer.
I just put that it was "Machined parts" and insured it for $200. :p

There shouldn't be any kind of transfer fee! I sent it directly to Ruger, and they sent it directly back to my doorstep. There doesn't need to be an FFL involved.

Luckily were I shop/shoot is a pretty big place with about 4-6 clerks at any one time. Between them all they usually give pretty good advice.
:D :D :D

Blueduck
March 4, 2003, 12:13 AM
I'd worry about it being lost or stolen using that system samualt. Not that I agree with it, but if you go to the ATF's FAQ you'll find it IS against the law to ship a handgun without notifying the carrier whats inside. Lot's of people do it no doubt, but you might get unlucky one of these days...

CZ-75
March 4, 2003, 12:21 AM
Nah, I'm way down southeast of you, scary thought..they're multiplying


I don't live there, so actually I'm way SE of you. ;)

Blueduck
March 4, 2003, 12:22 AM
Here's the whole thing from the ATF website if your interested:

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

samualt
March 4, 2003, 01:09 AM
Blueduck:
Thank you! I didn't know that. Technically, I did tell them...they just didn't want to hear. ;-) Perhaps I'll try Fedex next time, or, some other carrier.
I would never do anything that might seem questionable legally. Yikes!

I think I'll go to ATF site and readup on everything! :rolleyes:

444
March 4, 2003, 01:20 AM
I had exactly the same experience. Exactly: the dealer went wild, I actually thought he was going to get violent (after he got out of his wheelchair).

Pendragon
March 4, 2003, 02:50 AM
I sold my Colt Defender on gunbroker a few months ago.

First I went to a dealer I have done a lot of business with. They boxed it all up and then tried to charge me $90 to ship the gun :what:

They were nice about it (but wrong) and said it had to enter their books for them to ship it.

I said I could go ship it at UPS for $35. They said they did not think so (in a very respectable way) but maybe I should try and if I cannot, then come back.

I took it to UPS (across town) and the guy asked what it was - I whispered "handgun" - he did not bat an eye.

Some peoples just don't know what's what.

Marshall
March 4, 2003, 04:13 AM
You ever question someome about something and have them become accusatoy, defensive and unreasonable? As it turns out you find out later that you almost caught them at something?

Sounds like some FFL's are liking the money they make on shipping arms and are banking on the average Joe not knowing any better and deferring to them.


naughty naughty http://members.aol.com/OUSoonerOne1/images/smiley%20whoopinstick.gif




So many of them have an attitude anyhow. :rolleyes:

bogie
March 4, 2003, 10:51 AM
Guys, let's not go off half-cocked...

FFLs get a LOT of grief. So they tend to err on the side of caution. They don't need to know the letter of the law - they need to know what will guarantee that they don't get their door kicked in at 3:00 on Monday morning.

JMLV
March 4, 2003, 11:14 AM
They DO need to know the law for among other things to do what you said Keep the wolf (atf) from the door on monday morning. secondly they need to geve correct info to their customers and not try and cheat them either through ignorance or greed. a transfer should not cost more than $25. shiping back to the manufacturer should be about the same (FFL dealers can use the post office and ship for about $10 or less cost) unless you bought the gun from him - they it should be FREE (or at the most cost) a dealer that tried to cheat me of put one over on me does not deserve my support I'd rather go to wal-mart than deal with him. JMHO. there are good dealers out there sometimes you just have to look real hard to fins them.

444
March 4, 2003, 11:32 AM
Bogie, I know what you are saying, but in this case, and when this happened to me that isn't an issue. First of all, if I say that I am going to ship a firearm to a gunsmith myself, that isn't going to get a totally uninvolved dealers door kicked in. Secondly, if someone doesn't know the correct answer to a question or comment, they should just keep quiet. Lastly, it is not appropriate to threaten your custiomers EVER. If you are going to do something, do it, don't fly off the handle and make a big scene because you are an a****le. Screaming at your customers over an issue that doesn't even really involve you isn't reasonable behavior.

cheygriz
March 4, 2003, 11:51 AM
Bogie,

I don't think your FFL was ignorant. He sounds like a crooked, greedy sumnabitch that just wanted to rob you.

I would report the sumnabitch to the Better Business burerau.

Also, post a notice on the bulletin baord at your club/range politely explaining the situation and ask fellow members to boycott this crooked sumnabitch.

spacemanspiff
March 4, 2003, 12:10 PM
hey now, this dealers is only trying to put a hot meal on his table and feed his mouth and maybe his childrens (if he has any). can you blame him for trying not to starve?

*blink blink*, wha, whas happening? did i just go insane for a minute?

kmays
March 4, 2003, 04:46 PM
Airwolf ax's:

"Are those in the industry *really* this stupid? I swear, the "bad to good" ratio seems to be about 5:1 sometimes."

It seems to be closer to 8:1 around here. I have rarely gotten a straight answer from an FFL, with the exception of the big shop in town. He seems to train his people well.

I've seen several FFLs try to sell postban AR's with preban uppers, and don't try to correct them unless you want a raft of *****. I've seen them send people home with their guns even though the NICS check hadn't come back yet -- "Oh, well, it's only a .22." FFLs trying to get 4473's for muzzleloaders. FFLs refusing to order a lower receiver because "it's illegal."

I guess the reason might be that anybody with any brains has already gotten out of the business.

blades67
March 4, 2003, 04:56 PM
Maybe I could come up with my own firearms laws test...When I go into a new shop I could have the owner fill it out and score it before I buy so much as a cleaning patch

Don't do that Blueduck, you might not ever be able to buy another cleaning patch. Then you'd really be up a creak!:D

alan
March 4, 2003, 05:05 PM
Blueduck:

Did you ever notice that there are some pretty poor examples of humankind behind the counter at your local grocery store also?

If you thought that the pistol was "overpriced" why did you buy it. You weren't likely establishing "good will". What you likely did establish in the mind of the storkeeper was your foolishness or worse, as shown by the line of crap he later on tried to shove down your throat.

P95Carry
March 4, 2003, 05:14 PM
The decline in numbers of good gun stores is worrying enough - in itself ..... but also I sure do wish these examples of a***ole FFL's was less prevalent. It's a sad trend.

IMO, A bona fide FFL should know enough of the laws (prerequisite in fact) .. fed and state ... to a) be able to advise his customers ..... who let's face it may not always be too clued up, and b) To protect his own a$$.!!

Also, IMO - an FFL should be at least reasonably knowledgeable about his goods .. both firearms and accessories .... again so he can advise and therefore probably gain a reputation for knowledge and helpfullness ... all good for business.! My most local guy is pretty good .. and at least honest when he doesn't know something .. he'll ask openly. I can go with that.

Standing Wolf
March 4, 2003, 10:13 PM
I heard the exact same thing—short of threatening to call the A.T.F.—from a complete ignoramus who's never going to get a shiny Truman dime's worth of my business.

six 4 sure
March 5, 2003, 12:51 PM
I got into a nice discussion with an FFL the past weekend. I tried to convince him that guns manufactured before 1900 were considered antique, and therefore a FFL was not need to purchase them, and that anyone could ship them.

I didn't want to press the issue, so I changed the subject.

Six

alan
March 5, 2003, 02:21 PM
six 4 sure:

While I wouldn't swear to it, I believe that the date is 1898, as in "or prior to" not 1900. Also, I believe that there was also something about "ammnunition not being readily available".

Of course, with respect to C & R stuff, that is another story entirely, as one therein gets involved with C & R Licenses.

synoptic
March 5, 2003, 02:49 PM
You're right alan, the date is 1898. There are also a couple other conditions that must be met about accepting standard bullets and such. Basically it has to be the kind that you pour powder into, drop a ball, and pack it in. I think the ATF's website has the exact specifications...

synoptic
March 5, 2003, 02:52 PM
(g) Antique firearm. -- The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

clange
March 5, 2003, 05:02 PM
I'd use Fed-ex but our closest shipping station for them is 60 miles away, little mailing points around here won't take handguns or I would use them. Gotta admit thats something I like about S/W. I'm sending two guns into the preformance center later this week. You E-mail, they give you a Fed-ex number, you call them and they come to you to pick up the guns, sweet
What do you mean by 'little mailing points', like unmanned places? I used FedEX here in rolla (like a town of 10,000 in the middle of nowhere). It was some little FedEx dist center, one person at the counter. The lady didnt have that much experience with the legality of it but remembered enough that it was legal for them to do if it was over night to the business. Didnt give me any problems..

Blueduck
March 5, 2003, 08:24 PM
clang,

By the little mailing points I mean the fed-ex stations at Mail Boxes Etc. and our local Business supply store. Niether location will accept handguns and state it has to be at a "Main" Fed-Ex pickup station. UPS is the same way can mail form the main place (open 4-5pm M-F:rolleyes: ) but not at stores or other places with UPS outlets.

Don't doubt your story a but though, rarely get the same answer to the same question wherever I go:(

six 4 sure
March 6, 2003, 08:31 AM
I knew the year was 1898 or 1900 couldn't remember which. The gun in question was a Winchester 1873 made in 1881. I don't remember for sure, but I think it was chambered in 32-20.

Six

EOD Guy
March 7, 2003, 09:16 PM
(g) Antique firearm. -- The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

This is incorrect. The prohibition against currently available fixed ammunition only applies to REPRODUCTIONS of antique firearms. For instance, I have a Model 1888 Sprngfield trapdoor rifle chambered in .45/70 Government. Ammunition for the rifle is currently manufactured and the rifle is still an antique.

If you enjoyed reading about "My FFL's wants to have me arrested..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!