[Zundfolge]

Ian posted a thread over in the Handguns:Autoloaders forum about his Sistema going full auto here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11576).

It made me wonder something.

Lets say you have a pistol or rifle that malfunctions and goes full auto. Lets also say there is a BATF agent who happens to be out shooting that day at the range and sees your moment of full auto glory.

Are you now a felon?
Can he arrest you for manufacturing an illegal machine gun?
Do I need to take off the tin-foil hat?

:uhoh:

[Praxis]

That's a good question. I had the same thought last week after my MkII ran away on me at the range. I had adjusted the trigger and didn't see that the sear pin wasn't completely lined up when I put the grip panels back on. Tested with a couple rounds and no problem, then Bang..Bang...Fraaaap... Slamfired about 6 shots.

As I was the only one on the range at that moment, it got the attention of the RO who kindly informed me that having a class III weapon wasn't a good idea in DE.:o Well thanks, I'm well aware of that too...

I suppose I could have had trouble if he had wanted to cause problems for me but after I explained about the trigger job he wished me luck as I packed up my things and went home to tinker some more.

Should I case the range after every trigger job?:uhoh: (or just do a better job making sure everything is back together.;) )

[Pendragon]

I say no way.

Well, anything is possible, but if you have a malfunction or breakage or some sort of mechanical failure, that is different than making a machine gun.

Now - if you did a trigger job and that caused it, then you may be on thin ice.

I can see them possibly charging you, and it getting expensive, but if you have a lawyer with a brain, you should not be convicted.

Note: I am not willing to test this :)

[WilderBill]

There are books out there that tell you how to build a full auto SKS. If you follow their instructions it should work, BUT you are taking quite a risk.

If you shoot an SKS a lot it is possible to build up enough crud around the firing pin to cause it to slam fire 'till the magazine is empty. Exactly the same result, but reached in complete innocence.

The diffference is that the dirty one has not been modified, only negleted.
I would think that the ATF would have a hard time trying to get a conviction out of that.

Not the only example, just one I thought of that could apply to a lot of us.

[El Tejon]

Zun, yes, they have arrested people in the past. Does not mean you will be convicted of course. Happened to that cop in New Jersey. AR15 if I recall correctly.

[seeker_two]

Wouldn't doubt that one ATF'er might try (look at Waco...:what: ), but any good lawyer who calls a competent gunsmith to the stand would defeat the case in 5 minutes....

[Art Eatman]

ATF doesn't care why a gun fired full-auto. A jury might consider the testimony of a qualified witness as to the accidental nature of the event.

I don't really have a lot of faith in the rationality of "The System"...

Art

[El Tejon]

Zun, the whole key to the statute is "knowingly" possessed an untaxed emmagee. In fact, there is a Supreme Court case on a case exactly like poor Ian's weapon.

Art, no faith in the NFA? You sound like a cynical tilecrawler. Don't you know "it's for your own good" and, of course, "the children"?:D

[BOBE]

I once had a Colt 380 gov. mod. go full auto with me. I cleaned the slot that the trigger disconnect rides in. It fixed the problem. The previous owner had not cleaned it, nor had the dealer where I bought it. Thinking back after reading this thread, this might have given an AFT guy fits trying to figger out just what to do about it.:confused:

[Blackhawk]

Are you now a felon?
Can he arrest you for manufacturing an illegal machine gun?
Do I need to take off the tin-foil hat?
1. No. You must be CONVICTED of a felony to become a felon.

2. He can arrest you for anything he feels like, but that's got nothing to do with it sticking.

3. No, but make sure it doesn't cover your eyes.

[BOBE]

I wonder how much it would cost to keep a coviction from happening?

[El Tejon]

BOBE, it depends. What's the scope of the representation? Pre-arrest? Pre-indictment? Just negiations with the AUSA to avoid indictment? Trial? Appeal? Are we calling experts, p.i.s, deposing people, etc., et al? Are we doing it per hour or flat fee?

[CZ-75]

Who cares about the conviction?

Sure, you'll get your life back after being dragged through the system, but your bank account will be lighter by several tens of thousands of dollars should the DA decide to be an a-- about it.

On a side note, is there such a thing as wrongful prosecution, and are there any civil or legal repercussions to the DA that wastes your time and money to make an example out of you?

[Hkmp5sd]

I've also came across accounts of ATF (and other agencies) charging someone with illegal possession of a machinegun by having a malfunctioning gun. Several of these cases were related to the Intratec Tec-22. In it's original design, they had a tendency to turn into machineguns after a little wear. ATF made Intratec correct the problem.

I think the deciding factor is how long you wait for repairs. If your gun goes full-auto one day at the range and you don't take it back to the range the following weekend to show your buddies your new machinegun, and then contact a gunsmith to repair it, I'd think your relatively safe.

If you have one that goes full auto and you think that's neat and keep on using it that way, ATF might come looking for you.

[cordex]

If you have one that goes full auto and you think that's neat and keep on using it that way, ATF might come looking for you.
And depending on the weapon and the type of malfunction, they could be looking for you in the hospital if you keep playing with it.

[spacemanspiff]

so, umm, what technique is used to "pull the trigger really fast", so that the gun is firing semi automatic, but its firing at a higher rate than normal?
kind of like what Bob did on American shooter some time back with a 1911. all seven shots went out in about 1.5 seconds. its not a malfunction, nor a trick, that i'm curious about.

[Pendragon]

You can bump fire most semi autos by letting the gun recoil and holding the trigger so that as the gun moves forward again, it fires again.

I did that probably 10 times with my Valtro when I first got it - several accidental "doubles". I had to do more follow through on the trigger and not try to release it so fast. I found it pretty unpleasant and scary until I made the adjustment.