question about 7.62x25 from a non-reloader


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Clean97GTI
January 4, 2005, 03:34 AM
I was looking at various posts on the 7.62x25's ability to penetrate armor when a question struck me.
While the 7.62x25 will penetrate some soft armor on its own, could reloading it with a rifle bullet (possibly of the AP variety) give you better armor piercing abilities? What bullets (if any exist) could accomplish this?

I understand that some of this could be illegal and am only asking a hypothetical question. I own no reloading equipment nor anything chambered for 7.62x25.

I'm sorry for the newbishness of my post, but I was curious and this seemed like the best place to ask.

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Jim Watson
January 4, 2005, 01:49 PM
Your'e right, it is illegal for an American Commoner to posess armor piercing handgun ammunition.

I will not publicly discuss "hypothetical" means of breaking or evading the law with strangers.

Maxinquaye
January 4, 2005, 06:38 PM
:scrutiny: :uhoh:

Clean97GTI
January 6, 2005, 03:49 AM
Since mil-surp 7.62x25 will penetrate armor on its own, I don't think my post was too out of line. Reports from others also show that some hotter loads (usually +p+) of FMJ 9mm Luger will defeat light armor at close ranges as will the "duty" ammo (SS192) for the Fn Five-seveN.

Let me put it this way for the squeamish. Could a .308 rifle bullet be made to work in a CZ-52? Would it work in the magazine, chamber and barrell?

only1asterisk
January 6, 2005, 04:37 AM
Loading a rifle bullet into the 7.62x25 would pretty much prevent it from working in any pistol I know of ever made for this or similiar cartridges. It would be WAY too long.
Reloading the 7.62x25 with a heavier rifle bullet will likely not do much to help body armor penetration anyway. Velocity would be too low and stability from a CZ52 would be very questionable.


David

Clean97GTI
January 6, 2005, 06:40 AM
Thanks for your reply.

neolithic hunter
January 11, 2005, 05:04 PM
a 7.62x25 has no more ap ability than a 9 luger does. the posession of ap pistol ammo is not illegal the sale and purchase of such ammo is illegal. i have an xp-100 chambered in .308 and have 7.62x51 ap ammo on my shelf does that make me breaking the law, i think not. this even though i have a pistol that will shoot it. the ability of a given pistol round to penatrate armor is an oxy-moron like military intellagence. i used to work at aberdine and we found that the only true pistol bullet to be a dependable penatrator was teflon coated slugs and these were questionalbe as to it's ability to consistantly penatrate hardened material. and a kevlar vest is not concedered hardened unless it has ceramic backing plates and these will stop a 150 gr. 30 cal. ap slug at 15 feet. :what: i know of no pistol bullet with these capabilities. :cool:

the groove diameter of a 308 rifle bullet and a bullet for a 7.62x25 are the same. but you put a rifle bullet into this case to work in the magazine, and you have only 1 small problem left no room for the gun powder to make it come out of the barrel :D

cocma
April 5, 2008, 12:14 PM
Reloading a 7.62x25 to make it a 223 Timbs might do it. I am working with a .223 FMJ and a 30 caliber sabot.

R.W.Dale
April 5, 2008, 12:30 PM
I'm not gonna comment on the AP aspects, But on the topic of rifle bullets in 7.62x25 just google 7.63 Mini Whisper

acmech
April 5, 2008, 05:16 PM
Also called the .223 timbs
http://www.qual-cart.com/223_timbs.htm

Roccobro
April 5, 2008, 06:06 PM
Spitzer type bullets in the 7.62x25 platform has been done by many. Pretty interesting stuff!

Justin

Clean97GTI
April 5, 2008, 06:33 PM
whoa, digging in the thread graveyard. What is it with people bumping really old threads lately.

Roccobro
April 6, 2008, 01:47 AM
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/2528/repostys5.jpg

mgregg85
April 6, 2008, 02:15 AM
a 7.62x25 has no more ap ability than a 9 luger does.

Sorry but your wrong on this one. The Box O' Truth test #29... (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_4.htm)

They shoot a USGI kevlar helmet with various rounds, 9mm ball fails to penetrate while the 7.62x25mm from a cz-52 penetrates one side of the helmet and busted the water jug inside of the helmet.

The 7.62x25mm will pierce some body armor. And it will pierce more body armor than a 9mm.

David Wile
April 6, 2008, 10:03 AM
Hey folks,

If your interest is to defeat body armor like kevlar jackets and vests, pistol bullets of any sort are not very good choices. Almost any center fire rifle, however, will easily penetrate such armor when loaded with bullets whose jackets cover the front. There are lots of boat tailed full metal jacket bullets in many calibers that will go through body armor at velocities much less than 3,000 FPS. Use a full metal jacket boat tail in the little .223, and you will find body armor is ineffective. Use the same type bullet in a 30-06 and the use of body armor is further reduced in any value. You don't need teflon bullets to pierce body armor. Full metal jackets and speed are all that is required. Pistols can use full metal jackets, but they don't have the speed of the rifles to do the job.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Clark
April 6, 2008, 05:26 PM
Newbie,
The CZ52 is very weak, and should not be subjected to high pressures like:
1) surplus 7.62x25mm ammo
2) the CZ52 loads in the book "Accurate Arms Load Book Number Two" published in 2000. These loads are replaced with lower powder charges on the AA website.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/


All currently published loads for he CZ52 are very low pressure and are safe.

And the Tokarev pistols are very strong [compared to a CZ52], despite what is written in the Sierra Pistol load book. Sierra admits that they just printed what THEY read. This error about CZ52 strength can be traced to a 1970 small arms identification publication for the US army. The weakness of the CZ52 can be traced to the very thin chamber and very poor quality control on the metallurgy of the chambers.

thebear101
May 19, 2008, 07:38 PM
Im thinking that you can line up 4 people in armer plating and with my S&W X frame will make one plater of stew

R.W.Dale
May 19, 2008, 07:45 PM
classy post!

Roccobro
May 20, 2008, 12:39 AM
Im thinking that you can line up 4 people in armer plating and with my S&W X frame will make one plater of stew

What in the heck does this have to do with reloading the 7.62x25? :confused:

Welcome to The High Road??!?

Justin

Funderb
May 20, 2008, 02:04 AM
The CZ52 is very weak, and should not be subjected to high pressures like:
1) surplus 7.62x25mm ammo
2) the CZ52 loads in the book "Accurate Arms Load Book Number Two" published in 2000. These loads are replaced with lower powder charges on the AA website.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/



CZ52s are weak?
huh. guess I'm a walrus too?

Roccobro
May 20, 2008, 03:00 AM
"The CZ52 is very weak, and should not be subjected to high pressures like:
1) surplus 7.62x25mm ammo"

He must mean the ammo NOT manufactured and for guns chambered in 7.62x25, or maybe even just of the same country of origin. OK, who am I kidding here.... :rolleyes:

I hear of weak firing pins, and rollers that gall. But not kabooms. Even with the poorly annealed Bulgarian that splits it's case necks with regularity! :confused:

Justin

Okiecruffler
May 20, 2008, 03:29 AM
Well I won't quote the crazy loads I use in mine, but I have yet to blow it up.
But if you want something really fun, how about a contender barrel in 7.62X25? Then load what you want.

Clark
May 24, 2008, 03:02 PM
CZ52s are weak?

Yes, weak, despite the fact that it is nearly the only handgun described as "strong" in load books:what:

The thickness of the chamber wall on the bottom where the releif was milled for the rollers is ~.056"

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=47360&d=1162699878

Another problem is the metallurgy.
The old CZ52 barrels we measured were between RC25 and RC35.
The new 9mm CZ52 barrel was RC47.

The CZ52 has the thinnest chamber wall I have found, until the Kel-Tec P3AT came out. It's thinness rivals the CZ52, but has excellent metallurgy, a lower pressure cartridge [7.62x25mm surplus from all countries but Russia is 42,000 c.u.p. while the 380 is registered at 21500 psi].

The CZ52 chamber has a little more hoop stress at .387" vs the 380 at .374".

What does it all mean?
The CZ52s got into this country with thin spots of poor metal and high pressure surplus ammo.

Someone was recently hurt at my range when a CZ52 blew up with surplus ammo.

The CZ52s I have blown up are bags of part from me working up handloads [But I can't hurt a Tokarev or any other semi auto pistol in a work up].

Funderb
May 24, 2008, 05:35 PM
well, that says it, cz52s should be banned and cut into pieces because they are just as dangerous as every saturday night special, and are know to blow up when pushing the pistols limits with loads for sub machine guns and hot handloads. I'm throwing mine away right now.

snuffy
May 24, 2008, 07:53 PM
Thanks Clark for that info, I didn't know that. I will be careful with my loads for my CZ-52. It's a fun gun to shoot, a real boomer. Just don't want that boom to escape the chamber. There's no reason to fire wall it anyway.

BigJakeJ1s
May 25, 2008, 02:04 AM
Clark has been poo-pooing CZ-52's for years now....

Be careful reloading for any gun, and enjoy your CZ-52.

Andy

R.W.Dale
May 25, 2008, 01:24 PM
For once though I actually agree with Clark. I've loaded for both the CZ and the TT33. The CZ would cycle the weakest 32acp level loads that wouldn't even open the slide on the Tok. I've seen far too many pics of bent and cracked cz-52's in my researching of this subject. It's become my opinion that the cz should ONLY be fed commercial loadings or mild to midrange handloads. Much like the FN in this thread (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362563) the CZ-52 is a handgun that with factory loadings is already pushed to the limits of what it can handle in terms of pressure and timing. These are handguns that you DON'T want to step outside the norm with handloads

Funderb
May 25, 2008, 01:34 PM
krochus must remember my posts from the 5.7 kaboom thread.


The ability to operate the slide is not a test of weakness of the pistol. That can be solved with a stiffer mainspring.

Clark
May 25, 2008, 01:45 PM
Clark has been poo-pooing CZ-52's for years now....

Be careful reloading for any gun, and enjoy your CZ-52.

Andy

And it is working too:)
1) Sierra capitulated that they just printed that they read.
2) Accurate Arms has rescinded their hot CZ52 loads published in May 2000, and offers the new wimp CZ52 load data for free.

Homer Simpson once remarked, "Who would have thought that reading and writing would pay off?"

This is one of those gun culture moments when we wonder, "Who would have thought that test data and engineering calculations would come from the consumer sector to change publications?"

R.W.Dale
May 25, 2008, 01:52 PM
but that still doesn't solve the problems with the thin chamber, iffy metallurgy and uneven roller lockup. My point was that even with factory ammo a CZ-52 is slowly but surely beating itself to death.

There have been 2 separate occasions where on another forum I passed this warning to posters wanting to hotrod 7.62x25 in a CZ 52 only to have them posting about a busted pistol a couple weeks later.

If you want a taste of when the 7.62x25 round can do when loaded to it's full potential the then CZ isn't the handgun for you.

grimjaw
May 25, 2008, 02:37 PM
The 7.62x25mm will pierce some body armor. And it will pierce more body armor than a 9mm.

Well, since you brought up that Box o' Truth test, I'd like to point out a few things.

- He doesn't list what type of 7.62x25 Tok he's using. Could be the hopped up Czech stuff, could be Romanian steel-jacket, could be WWB, could be steel cored armor piercing for all I know. Not sure, and I'm not going to the trouble to ask him. Regardless, the bullet (~85-90gr surely) is probably hitting 1400+ fps.
- 9x19 90gr can be loaded to similar velocity, safely, out of a handgun. (see post by the esteemed Zak Smith http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=5035 using a CZ75B) That's a better apples to apples comparison, besides the larger diameter of 9x19, and better selection of bullets, and shorter OAL, and greater number of guns to choose from, etc.

The Russians have not gone back to that round or a derivative for armor-piercing duty. Max P. can correct me if I'm wrong.

7.62x25 Tokarev, one of the neatest rounds ever to be made obsolete. :p

To the OP's question in this zombie thread: I have a friend who takes .223 Remington once-fired brass, blows the neck out, loads it with a 7mm rifle bullet, fires it through a custom Thompson Center barrel. There's probably a name for this, but I'm not into reloading enough to know it. Anyway, the result is a heavier, slower bullet. It's not hitting 3000fps obviously, but it's still moving at rifle velocities. I know that's not quite the same comparison, but if I understand correctly it's velocity that gives 7.62x25 is penetrating ability. Slowing it down with a heavier rifle bullet doesn't seem useful.

only1asterisk had it right early on.

jm

Clark
May 25, 2008, 04:09 PM
I have got some real performance from the 7.62x25mm by loading it with 110 gr FMJ bullets and Power Pistol. I built a 1903 Turk Mauser in the cartridge with a Remington 30-06 take off barrel. I also put a 308 sniper barrel on a Tokarev pistol in this cartridge and mounted a rifle scope.

I have got some real performance from the Tokarev pistol by reaming out an aftermarket 9x19mm barrel to 9x23mm, 158 gr XTP bullets and Power Pistol. The amount of recoil the little pistol can make is a shocker.

BigJakeJ1s
May 25, 2008, 08:27 PM
Clark wrote:
And it is working too
1) Sierra capitulated that they just printed that they read.
2) Accurate Arms has rescinded their hot CZ52 loads published in May 2000, and offers the new wimp CZ52 load data for free.

Homer Simpson once remarked, "Who would have thought that reading and writing would pay off?"

Can you imagine what one of today's anti-gun juries would do if someone sued Sierra or Accurate, and they found out (via a google, no less) that some self-proclaimed expert had "warned them" about the "weakness" of CZ-52s? This was not an engineering or scientific decision, but one made by their lawyers.

Reading and writing are generally necessary but not sufficient for intelligence.

Andy

Clark
May 25, 2008, 09:53 PM
When my son and I compete, the looser, in a effort to mock poor sportsmanship, yells, "You got lucky!"

Funderb
May 25, 2008, 11:07 PM
well, your original post was 90% OT, so I don't think anyone is a real winner here. Except the dinosaur of a post reviving itself with your help.

Don't tell people that cz52s are inherently dangerous, it's not true.

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