[White Horseradish]

I am having a discussion with an anti and his contention is that guns are as dangerous as explosives. My contention is that a gun will not fire without a human making it do that. He brought up accidental discharges if a gun falls.

I can think of two kinds of guns that will fire when dropped - STEN and revolvers that allow the hammer to go forward without trigger being pulled (what is the term for that, BTW?) Someone also told me that he had an M16 fire when he it dropped butt-first with safety off. Does a semiauto AR do that?

[TaxPhd]

I would think that any gun with a floating firing pin and no firing pin lock (think series 70 and series 80 1911's) have the potential to fire when dropped.

I'm sure there are others.

Perhaps a more important question is how likely is it to happen?

[jefnvk]

Don't drop loaded guns.

I find it hard to believe very many people outside of a combat zone would drop a loaded gun. I would think that only a very small percent of those who did drop the gun would have it go off. But, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Jim K]

Many older revolvers would fire if dropped on the hammer with a loaded chamber under the hammer. That is why people advise that old style (not necessarily old in years) guns be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer.

Most modern guns are designed so they cannot fire when dropped. Revolvers have either a hammer block (S&W, Colt) or a transfer bar (Ruger) to prevent that from happening. Auto pistols also are designed not to fire if dropped, using either an inertia firing pin or some type of firing pin block that will not allow the firing pin to go forward unless the trigger is squeezed or the gun is in the hand (grip safety). One concern with some pistols of the Model 1911 type is that if the gun is dropped on the muzzle, the firing pin can move forward from inertia and fire a chambered round. Most new pistols are designed to prevent this.

In reality, with the exception of old type guns, it is either very unlikely or simply impossible that a gun will fire when dropped. But that remote possibility has become a credo of the anti-gun gangsters, who look for any imagined defect to use in their unending and fanatical campaign to ban all individual gun ownership. Many are simply paranoid, and imagine thousands of guns dropping from the sky and going off; they then use their nutty nightmares to demand legislation to "protect the public" against something that happens only in their own fantasies.

Jim

[AK103K]

I find it hard to believe very many people outside of a combat zone would drop a loaded gun.
I'll bet it happens more than you might think. I've only had it happen once, and it was with a just loaded Series 70 1911 that had slipped out of my hand as the slide went home. You'd be amazed at how long it takes a loaded pistol to fall 2.5'.
The gun that I would think most suscepible to discharge when dropped would be an open bolt SMG. Even when dropped with the bolt forward(sorta safe) on a loaded mag can be hairy if the bolt isnt locked.

[P95Carry]

Pity the anti's don't think of other things than guns ... drop a knife - impale foot!! Way more likely.

Jim has said it all really ... I know of a sten incident which took a guys leg off (had to be amputated) but that was end of WWII and hardly a present day risk. And even floating pin revo's - sheesh - what are the odds? incredibly remote.

How to get these anti's thinking logic and sense instead of gut-driven emotional crap is near beyond me. :rolleyes: :( They won't change will they? Not in their interests, otherwise they'd have nothing much to bleat about.

[Preacherman]

Basically, any gun may fire when dropped. Most modern firearms are designed and equipped so as not to do so: but mechanical safeties are just that - mechanical, and anything mechanical can and has failed sometime in the past. Your "anti" friend is, unfortunately, correct that all guns are susceptible to such failure. However, the odds against a modern firearm, equipped with a firing pin block and other safety mechanisms, discharging when dropped, are overwhelming.

[carebear]

I'd question the M16 firing when dropped, unless the firing pin channel was crudded up.

Could he be talking about the bolt going home and assuming that it would have fired if loaded?

Quality guns firing when dropped, especially since the '80s, are probably no more common than the odd car dropping into gear on it's own. And typically is due to a mechanical failure or broken part, not a problem as built.

[sm]

Agree with the Gunsmithin' aspects above...

Agree with Chris...

Anti's just don't think.

Have your anti take his wife's /GF hairspray , toss into a trash compactor in the kitchen...surprise!

IF you can find a 2 liter of soda with a metal cap , drop it. Surprise! There is a reason most carbonated beverages have a plastic cap now...

Accidently spill Bleach onto Ammonia - common household items again...another Big No-NO.

Put a gun lock on a household fire extinguisher...pretend there is a fire ...oh yeah they will slam, bang, all sorts of stuff to a FE to get the lock off or get FE operational :evil: [ this I know for a fact]

Anti's want protection, they don't want responsibiility.

[InfernoMDM]

Any gun can fire when dropped, if the idiot does one of two things. Puts a round in the chamber (for old guns) or drops it while its cocked or in single action mode. Lets face it everything breaks some day even the glocks.

That being said I have seen an ak-74 dropped 2 stories, :what: run over by a double decker bus and never fire untill the trigger was pulled... it worked flawlessly.

I love my AK:neener:

[Model520Fan]

Any gun can fire when dropped, if the idiot . . . drops it while its cocked or in single action mode.

Not true of S&W's, for sure, and probably not of DA Colts or Rugers, either. I think you need to take a look at the dynamic functions of the various parts of those revolvers before unknowingly making false statements.

[White Horseradish]

As far as old vs. new designs, my mod. 1895 Nagant revolver does not allow the hammer to go forward unless the trigger is all the way back. Should the hammer go forward anyway there is a sort of a spoon with a hole that the firing pin fits through that only aligns that hole with the primer when the gun is in battery (hammer cocked and cylinder locked forward). Safety isn't a new idea.

I've read of a few STEN incidents, but I didn't think this would be a problem with other open bold MGs...

[AK103K]

The early MP38's didn't have a bolt lock and they had some problems. I think they initially just used a piece of leather over the charging handle to keep the bolt closed if dropped until they came up with the lock you see on the later guns and 40's. Most of those type SMG's charging handles are also the lock and you pull it out to unlock it or push it in when the bolt is closed to lock it. Some like the MAC's have locks on the underside of the receiver in the trigger guard and I believe some had lock on the charging handle too. The cover on the M3's is the safety and when closed, it blocks the bolt from going rearward. If any of the open bolt guns are dropped with the bolt unlocked and impact more or less barrel up,(but not always) the bolt can move rearward enough to strip a round and fire it as it goes forward. If your hand slips of the charging handle as you draw it back it will also fire if the bolt has cleared the round in the mag but not yet locked back. Then there's always the knucklehead that forgets to pull the mag before dropping the bolt to make it safe. :)

[thorn726]

Pity the anti's don't think of other things than guns ... drop a knife - impale foot!! Way more likely.

Seriously! i droppped my pistol once , no big deal.
dropped a knife once at work, 3 years later my fingertip is still messed up!

[Rickstir]

I don't make a habit of it, but I have dropped my 92FS and Taurus 650 CIA. Still alive to write about it. I know the 92FS has passed the CA drop test.

[brian roberts]

the 1911 can be fired, even if the hammer is down, F/P is not touching the primer IF: the F/P spring has been cut by some Dilbert, or hasn't been inspected in so long its compressed past all sensible service. it doesn't take a huge drop, either; try from the rear seat to the floor of a '74 Charger. its SCARY :uhoh:

[BigG]

You guys make me envious; wish I had a subgun to play around with. *sniff* :(

[happy old sailor]

many good points here. i ask students about safeties. say: safeties are mechanical, have you ever known anything mechanical to fail??? obvious answer - yes. this was covered by a previous reply.

[SAWBONES]

Guns that CAN fire when dropped?
All of them, including those with firing pin safeties.

Guns that actually DO fire when dropped on the muzzle from a height of 3 meters or less?
Almost none.

It's an overblown safety concern, IMNSHO.

[TRLaye]

I can say with absolute confidence that a Gov't sized Kimber, (Classic Custom) with a round in the chamber, full magazine, hammer cocked as is normal, does not fire when presented (fumbled) from a holster in haste and with a poor grip and impacts 6-plus feet downrange onto hard packed gravel. Either with slide (thumb) safety on or off. This is the early Kimber model without the current grip safety activated firing pin safety.

I can't say how I know this but I do. ';>)

[30Cal]

Most interesting mishaps involve more than a single failure, so don't expect the safety features to work. My personal rule is never test/trust an interlock with a loaded firearm (and they're all loaded unless I verify otherwise at that particular time).

My brother-in-law has a shotgun that will go off with the safety on if you bump the buttplate on the floor. For that sort of reason, I prefer a safety that blocks the trigger and hammer/firing pin if at all possible.

You treat it the same whether the safety is on, off or absent.
Ty

[Jonathan]

I'm no expert, but I would guess that a dropped gun is most likely going to go off if there is a finger within the trigger guard.


I like to go shooting in the woods, but uneven terrain, snow or wet ground could give you a "dropping" discharge like this (http://www.microsqft.com/files/g18_kilgore.wmv.avi).

And no, it's not my video, but it is why I always introduce people to firearms at established ranges.

[357Texas]

Get a shell and put some clay in the place insted of a primer. Whould that work?

[smokemaker]

Not quite on the subject, but my dad has an old inherited 8mm Nambu pistol that will fire if you push on the side of the frame just right. The transfer bar to the sear runs outside the frame. Scary.

[Orthonym]

I was holding a Charter Arms revolver I was examining for a friend, intending to snap it in a safe direction, when (honest, swear by the spleen of Tammy Bruce) the cocked hammer disengaged itself all at once with my finger out of the trigger guard. I had a next- door neighbor say the same had happened to her similar piece, once, though I seem to recall she said hers was loaded at the time. :-O

[PowderBurn]

My SKS went off as I pulled the bolt back and released it to chamber a round. :eek: Finger was not in the trigger guard, and safety was ON. Scary! Fortunately, gun was pointed downrange and I was alone at an outdoor range at the time.

[geekWithA.45]

I recall reading somewhere that the most common reason a dropped gun discharges is because the operator tried to catch it, and ended up with fingers or thumbs in the trigger guard.

I am not aware of any guns of modern design in sound condition that will fire when dropped. That's a solved problem, over and done with.

As for the m16/ar, the bolt, if locked back, will in fact slam home if you drop it, and potentially chamber a round. I've never seen or heard of any case where the sear released the hammer.

You _can_ get a slam fire, if the firing pin is so crudded up or bent such that it's essentially locked into place, but that's rare as hen's teeth. I suppose strategically placed pebbles cemented to the bolt face by mud might do the trick too, but that's a stretch and a half.

[Psssniper]

Certainly none of the guns that have passed Kalifornias drop test would ever fail no sir no way uh uh ;)

[benEzra]

PPK-type semiautos are not drop-safe unless the safety is engaged (which is why the instructions tell you to keep it on safe). If it's on safe, the firing pin is shielded by thick steel, but if it's off safe and lands on the hammer it can discharge.

Newer-design guns with interlocks (e.g., S&W 3913) are drop-safe with the safety off, though it's still better not to drop it. :p

PowderBurn,

What brand ammunition were you using? U.S.-made ammunition uses way softer primers than most eastern-bloc self-loaders were designed for, raising the risk of slamfires. If you were using eastern-bloc ammo, check to make sure you firing pin channel isn't crudded up with powder residue or dried cosmoline.

[Justin]

I'd ask the person you're debating with whether they've ever had their car suddenly accelerate without them first putting foot to gas pedal.

[PowderBurn]

benEzra

I was using Wolf ammo at the time. I'd run a couple hundred rounds of various brands through the gun before it started going off when the bolt slammed, so it's probably not cosmo, just crud. I'm anxious to check the pin when I get back to the cabin (where I keep the SKS). I keep most of my guns very clean, but got the SKS as a low-maintenance, knock-around plinker. If a guy ever needed an incentive to keep his weapon clean, a spontaneous ignition surely provides it.

Thanks for the advice.

[Greybeard]

Worth repeating: "I recall reading somewhere that the most common reason a dropped gun discharges is because the operator tried to catch it, and ended up with fingers or thumbs in the trigger guard."

Yep, yep. Better to just let 'er fall, especially pistolas.

[BluesBear]

I would think that any gun with a floating firing pin and no firing pin lock (think series 70 and series 80 1911's) have the potential to fire when dropped.
Think again.

A series 70 type 1911 pattern pistol will sometimesfire IF;
(a) dropped on the muzzle
(b) while the hammer is down on a loaded chamber.

This doesn't apply to older Star and Llama clones that did not have inertia firing pins.

With the hammer cocked it is damn near impossible to get a 1911 pattern pistol to fire when dropped. And with the Series 80 or Series 90 Colts as well as others with firing pin blocks faageddaboudit. It ain't gonna happen unless you drop it off a really high cliff and it breaks into several pieces when it hits the rocks below.

[mussi]

The SIG P210 isn't that drop-safe neither unless the safety is engaged, and when one drops it then, it's still risky business.

[TaxPhd]

"A series 70 type 1911 pattern pistol will sometimesfire IF;
(a) dropped on the muzzle
(b) while the hammer is down on a loaded chamber."


Hammer doesn't have to be down. The possibility exists even cocked and locked.

[BluesBear]

The possibility exists even cocked and locked
I admit the possibility exists, but after extensive testing (do a search on it with my name) I have only been able to get it to happen when,
A) the firing pin spring is weaker than normal
AND
B) it is dropped from a height exceeding six feet

I have never been able to get a cocked and locked 1911 pattern pistol to discharge from a height of less than five feet.

[Third_Rail]

Jonathan, that file doesn't exist. Is there another link?

[Jonathan]

Here's the video: http://www.microsqft.com/files/g18_kilgore.wmv.avi

The host regularly cleans out it's files, so it will only stay up for a few days.

[P95Carry]

Thx for the link ... worth showing to folks that one ... the potential for that turning out quite different is not requiring too much imagination!

[DRZinn]

Put a gun lock on a household fire extinguisher...pretend there is a fire ...oh yeah they will slam, bang, all sorts of stuff to a FE to get the lock off or get FE operational [ this I know for a fact] OLEG! OLEG! A poster of a fire extinguisher with a trigger lock on it, and a caption asking how much sense that makes!

[BluesBear]

Our esteemed member, GeekWithA.45, did it over a year ago.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=550856

[DRZinn]

Other people are always stealin' my ideas before I have 'em....

[Clean97GTI]

The Makarov coul discharge if dropped. It did pass the California drop-test though. I carry mine safety-off, hammer down on a loaded chamber. Never had a problem.

BTW, let GeekWithA.45 know that he should store his knives sharpened edge up in the block. Keeps the edges sharper longer. ;)
Sorry, old cooks trick.

[Double Maduro]

thorn726,

I like to cook and I enjoy teaching young'uns to cook. One of the first things I show them is my left index finger, then I tell them "if you drop a knife, DON'T catch it".


All guns can fire when dropped. I know, I know, disconnects, blocks, etc., etc..

If you believe in the mechanical function of firearms, how come you point it in a safe direction when you use the decocker? Why do you make sure it is pointed down range all the time?

The answer is SAFETY.

Treat all weapons as if they are loaded and can discharge at any time. This is the reason for Rule 2.

Never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

The chances of the safety devices malfunctioning are tiny, but it only takes once.

Sh** happens. We do our best to prevent it but it still happens.

Be safe, don't drop your weapon. After reading a couple of the above posts I would also ad "don't try to catch it".

DM

[Texshooter]

Well, I had a P220 drop out of a defective shoulder holster (read that to mean retaining strap broke while on foot chase) and it discharged when it hit the ground. Shortly after this, Sig changed the way their decocker works.

ANY mechanical device can break, ANY!

[Orthonym]

I recall that a friend told me, when he was learning to be a rocket machinist at Redstone Arsenal in the late 60s, that he was told, if he happened to drop a $1,000 carbide milling cutter (Prolly 20k these days) that he should come to attention, NOT try to catch the thing, and rely on his steel-toed machinist's shoes to save his toes.

A dangerous tool does't have to go boom to hurt you.

[Third_Rail]

:what:


I just watched that video. That could've easily been either person's life. :uhoh:


And the cameraman laughed.... :(

[carebear]

Comedy is tragedy plus time. In this case, a second or so. :D

One common response to shock is laughter, kind of an acknowledgement of "what could have happened" but didn't.

Plus your buddy face-planting is inherently funny.

[mr hanky]

quote:

"Anti's want protection, they don't want responsibiility."

amen sm, i don't think you could have put it any better. I would also add they don't understand how to protect themselves.

Lots of good advice for safety guys, thanks

[BluesBear]

The Doofus trips and stumbles (and fires) then falls (and fires again).

The FIRST thing he does after he gets up, is work the slide so he can fire again! :eek: And then he turns to face his buddy!


I propose a Rule #5.

Don't go shooting with a Doofus.

[carebear]

I think he was checking the weapon, not readying to fire. But I'm probably giving too much benefit of the doubt.

The "Doofus" Rule seems like a good addition though. :D

[Guy B. Meredith]

The California DOJ has a list of guns that DON'T fire when dropped--at least the way they drop the guns. This is a requirement for sales in California.

Seems that these extoriionists would have us believe that barrel length and color of firearm are involved in the likelyhood that a dropped firearm would discharge as such diffrences among models with the same action require additional (expensive) testing.

[thorn726]

I like to cook and I enjoy teaching young'uns to cook. One of the first things I show them is my left index finger, then I tell them "if you drop a knife, DON'T catch it".

ouch. yeah, wish i'd had that lesson. stupid because i did already know
"run!" when large equiptment falls (don't try to save it)

-at least when the gun fell it was not loaded.
it will not fall again.

[mfree]

I got a nice bruise on the top of my foot from sticking it under a falling CZ75 Compact once :)

Better than grabbing it, I 'spose.