[Tamara]

...for I now have Really Large Cartridges in hand. :cool:

The Big Brown Truck of Happiness showed up yesterday, with a box o' fun from Old Western Scrounger! :)

[Kamicosmos]

Is that a .308 next to it for comparison?

Dayumn....

do you have a rifle for that thing, or just wanted the cartridge?

[Mike Irwin]

Fear you? For THAT?

Hehehehehe...

Remind me to post a couple of pictures when I get home this evening...

Of REAL cartridges...

Not fat-assed .45-70 wannabes. :D


Very cool that you've got your ammo!

When are you going to shoot it?

Just remember, do NOT wrap your thumb around the wrist of the gun!

[Tamara]

Nah, it's parked next to a .223... ;)

(OAL on the .577-450 is actually about the same as an 8mm Mauser.)

[Tamara]

Unfortunately my cartridge collection went away about the time I quit managing at the shop in GA, unprimed 4 Bore and all. (Even had an empty cardboard shotshell from a punt gun that looked like a brass-based paper towel tube...)

:(

[MonkeyMan]

Yes, I am happy to see you and yes, that is a .577-450 Martini-Henry in my pocket.:D

[ACP230]

Watch out or I'll have to:

1. Buy a digital camera
2. Shine up the fired Japanese artillery shell I found in an old air raid shelter on an exotic island in the East Carolines.
3. Post the pic.

Of course it's only an old piece of brass, but its big!

[SodaPop]

Oh............ I thought that was a picture of "The Fat man" that we dropped on Nagasaki.:what: *correction*

Better be careful that doesn't end up on the WMD list.:D


TAMARA HAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!:evil:

[Schuey2002]

Doesn't that stuff run about $3.00 per round??

Yikes!:what:

[BigG]

Is it a short chamber Boxer .450? Do you have a bayonet with some guts behind it?:D

[Schuey2002]

Tamara, do you plan to go on safari anytime soon??

[note to self: Beware of women toting large guns!!] ;)

[krept]

whoa that's a biggie. Looks like a dinosaur killer.

[gun-fucious]

When you arrive at Tamara's home
and she asks if you want to try a Martini
make sure you put on ear plugs!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2142

;)



The First Zulu War.

Natal 1879 (not Glasgow)

[Inside a tent.]

Pakenham-Walsh: Morning Ainsworth.

Ainsworth: Morning Pakenham-Walsh.

Pakenham-Walsh: Sleep well?

Ainsworth: Not bad. Bitten to shreds though. Must be a hole in the
bloody mosquito net

Pakenham-Walsh: Yes, savage little blighters aren't they?

[Ledbetter]

I've heard about those. They can knock satellites out of the sky, shoot down passenger jets and are the weapon of choice for inner city crime. No honest man/woman needs that much firepower.

:evil:

[DJJ]

You should have no problem shooting those; recoil is negligible. You can tell from watching "Zulu." After you - I insist. :uhoh:

I'm not sure whether it's fitting, humorous, or in bad taste to have an image of a Zulu on the box...

"Zulu" trivia:

For the wide shots of the massed Zulu warriors, each extra held a '"triple wide" shield to give the illusion of greater numbers.

[BigG]

I was at first thinking that was a Zulu on the box, too. But I think it's maybe a British guy with a bearskin hat? Tamara really gets the esoteric stuff, don't she? :cool:

[Sisco]

Looks like just the thing H&Hhunter and I need.
For details, check this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10945

[Stinger]

FWI, Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki, Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima.


Stinger

[Edward429451]

Is that one of those monsters that you have to shoot one handed to keep it from knocking you down that I've heard of?

Or were they pulling my leg?

[another48hrs]

Tamara, I think this has got to be the best title for a thread ever. :D

[bad_dad_brad]

I always fear women. Especially when they are blond with guns like Tamara.

Just for grins, I just scanned a ma-deuce .50 next to a .223. Yikes!

I find it interesting that the .50 is an upscaled .30-06 and the .223 is a down scaled of the same. All rounds cousins of each other. Cool.

[Byron Quick]

Folks, don't get on her bad side or she'll fire a few rounds through the Martini, get it good and fouled, and then wander over,"Hi, guys, wanna shoot my Martini?"

Range report, lady.

[Mike Irwin]

The illustration on the looks something like Zulu tribal dress...

I think that's what it's supposed to represent, but I don't think it does it very well.

[Detritus]

remember to use the thumbrest......

i forgot ONCE when shooting a friend's martini. took me 5-6 mins to get the blood to stop flowing.......


seriously good luck, and does your friend have any other really good guns he wants to give away??? :D

[Mal H]

bad_dad_brad - I apologize, but I can't let things go when I know I should. You stated the .223 is a down scale of the 30-06. Don't think so; the .223 was a new design for service weapons in the '60's. Cartridges such as the .270 and .25-06 are true down scales of the 30-06. I believe the .50 is also not an upscaled 30-06, but a distinct design itself.

[BigG]

Mal, I seem to remember reading Hatcher who said 50 was a larger version of 30/06 but I may be disremembering. :confused:

[50 Shooter]

Mal,
The .50 BMG is an upscaled .30-06, Winchester originally made it with a rimmed base so it could be fired from a clip. The Army didn't like idea and rejected it. Winchester also couldn't meet the required specs for the .50 BMG, that and the fact that they were using a 30" barrel. They had to change the barrel length and the powder they were using to get it up to speed.

As for the .223 thing, don't know for sure.

[Tamara]

Cartridges such as the .270 and .25-06 are true down scales of the 30-06.

I think you're using "necked-down" when they're meaning "scaled-down (or -up)". (In that the dimensions on the .50 & .223 have nearly the same relationships to each other as those of the venerable '06. Ever notice that a .25 ACP round looks almost exactly like a .45 that's been left in the drier too long? ;) )

[Mal H]

50 - Most of what you say is an argument against it being an upscaled 30-06. Lots of cartridges will have the same look as the 30-06 with the various dimensions in similar ratios, but they aren't necessarily patterned directly from the 06.

.
.
.

I just did a cursory search and found more evidence that JMB patterned the .50 BMG after the Mauser Gewehr-T anti-tank round than after the 30-06 (which is also patterned after a Mauser design).

[Mike Irwin]

Mal,

"I believe the .50 is also not an upscaled 30-06, but a distinct design itself."

It is a distinct design, but if you run the dimensions, you'll see that the dimensions are all directly proportional to the .30-06.

IOW, if you were to take a .30-06 and blow it up to maintain all of its aspects and angles, you'd get the .50 BMG.

[50 Shooter]

Mal,
I guess you could do a search on Winchester and the .50 BMG, they were the ones to up-scale the .30-06.Yes, these facts almost led to the demise of the M2 before it even made it out of the gate.

Mauser was using a 13mm that was based on the 7.92mm Gewehr 98. Captured versions were converted to .50 BMG and that made all the difference in meeting the specs they were looking for.

[hubel458]

For my 458 Hubel Express I upscaled a 458 Win in effect,
by extending the same taper backwards.So I ended up with
a little bigger belted base.Built brass from 450 NE.It is 3.45 in
long compared to 2.5 for 458Win .Tamara, your cartridge is as
wide and shorter as mine is long.Here is picture of two of
mine flanking 458Win..Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/feb04-01.jpg

[CWL]

Man, that's a lot of bullet!

I wonder why the Brits ever needed to create "dum dums" by cutting 'x's onto the tops of those monsters. What did they need to stop?

[Dr.Rob]

Ever see a hippo? Realize it can run faster than a man? Realize that even a 470 shooting solids might NOT exit?

Read Safari Rifles By Craig Boddington and you'll see pictorial evidence.

Big Bullets = Big Game.

[bad_dad_brad]

Mal H is correct regarding measurements. The ammo looks the same to the eye, but the numbers, although close, are different. A rifle cartridge looks the same in different calibers, because the basic design is sound.

I had always heard that the .50 was an upscaled .30-06 as well. That probably meant the basic design of the ammo. But the numbers, the ratio's of length to width are not quite the same.

I got my good old trusty Greenhill "Military Small Arms Handbook" by the legendary Ian V. Hogg and ran some numbers. The measurements are in thousands of an inch:

5.56 Nato:
2260 total length / 1760 case length / 223 bullet width.

.30-06 Springfield:
3320 total length / 2490 case length / 308 bullet width.

.50 Browning:
5425 total length / 3910 case length / 515 bullet width.

Ratios of comparison:

5.56 Nato:
Bullet width is 12.6% of case length and 59% of rim width.

.30-06 Springfield:
Bullet width is 12.3% of case length and 65.5% of rim width.

.50 Browning:
Bullet width is 13.1% of case length and 64.3% of rim width.

The real similarites are that all of these rifle ammunitions have the same characteristics in design. They all have tapered cartridges to facilitate chambering, lock up, and to handle high pressures. The cases all neck down to the bullet. The bullets are all of the basic spitzer design.

I stand corrected.

[Detritus]

thought the "Dum-Dum" (named after the Brit arsenal that first made some up) rounds were created to increase the effectivness of the .303 rounds used in the Lee (metford/Enfield) rifles?? i may be wrong. but what i'd always been lead to beleive was that the scored nose bullets were a way to get a jacketed .30caliber round to do the same damage as the lead slug of the 577-450.

and that the explosive expansion of the Dum-Dum and the use of other rounds with "grevious and malicous wounding properties" (wood core rounds that shattered on impact, and various rounds more akin to launching a small percise grenade INTO a soldier) were the reasons behind the Hague convention provision for exclusive use of solid FMJ bullets for military purposes.

i repeat i maybe wrong and if so please let me know.

[Crimper-D]

Of Hotchkiss One Inchers! :evil: One of These Things
make a 50BMG look anemic :neener: they were also called "One Pounders" in reference to their projectile weight and BTW also make a 20mm Bofers shell look kinda puny.:evil:
Tamara, I envy you the .577x.450 - I LOVE Martinis, but all mine are .22's and a .303:)

[tlhelmer]

Please, post apic of the gun you use that cartridge in.

[Pappy John]

I'll second that...I'd really like to see it too.

[Marko Kloos]

Tamara, I envy you the .577x.450 - I LOVE Martinis, but all mine are .22's and a .303.

I'll wager a bet that your Martinis are all much cheaper and less painful to shoot than hers. :D

Interesting ammo trivia...that .577-450 from OWS is made with trimmed and necked-down 24-gauge brass.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, shucks, lendringser; you went and got the thread back on topic. I was about to think up a trophy for the greatest case of thread-drift in Rifle Country history! :D

Art

[Marko Kloos]

Yeah, I know. I'm such a party pooper. :)

[Dave R]

So what are the ballistics of a .577 X 450? Its not in my Guns & Ammo annual....

450 grains of black bowder pushing a .577 bullet?

So 600gr bullet weight moving at 1100fps?

And how may wheel weights do you have to melt to make a bullet?

[Tamara]

The military loading was a 480gr lead bullet at 1350 fps. The cartridge nomenclature (being British) differs from the US black powder nomenclature we're used to, and signifies a .577 Snider case necked down to accept a .450" bullet.

[Frohickey]

So, its a 0.450 inch diameter bullet?
600 grains, thats 1 3/8 oz of lead. :o

A 50BMG goes to 950grains! :o :o

How heavy of a projectile does the Missouri shoot from its main guns?

[Dave R]

480 grains at 1350fps? That's hotter than a standard 45.70. I'm afraid, now.

[Tamara]

Please, post apic of the gun you use that cartridge in.

Behold: A copy of The Portable Kipling, a box of .577-450 Martini Henry shells, an 1884 Thruppence (Victoria Dei Gratis Britannia Regina :cool: ), a British 1908 Pattern Cavalry Saber, and a short-lever Martini Henry. :)

[Schuey2002]

I'm still not afraid..:D

[OBTW,the wood on that Martini Henry looks like it was gnawed on by a bear..] :p

[Crimper-D]

Got BAYONET:confused: :evil:

[Gewehr98]

But the .50 3-1/4 from J.D. Jones (seen in the middle here with 750gr BMG bullet) makes me sit up and take notice! (Note to self, as intriguing as it might look, it'd require a serious recoil pad on my Ruger #1S if I rechambered it for the .50 3-1/4...)

http://www.sskindustries.com/images/6carts.jpg


Or how about a .950 JDJ, seen on the left, or a .700 JDJ, as seen on the right with an 1100gr bullet? (That's a .50 BMG in the middle)

http://www.sskindustries.com/images/cart_extra2.jpg

[tlhelmer]

Thanks Tamara!

[Tamara]

[OBTW,the wood on that Martini Henry looks like it was gnawed on by a bear..] :p

Although I realize that guns that aren't made of black plastic look strange to you, cut the poor thing some slack for being 120 years old, okay? :p

Crimper-D,

Got BAYONET:confused:

I wish!
I wonder if anybody makes repro Martini bayonets... hmmm...

[KMKeller]

Tam, I assume that thing takes the socket bayonet? Or is it the sword bayonet?

Also, check here : http://bayonets.com/ and look at line V096.

Here's another tidbit: http://www.arms2armor.com/Bayonets/brit1853.htm

[Schuey2002]

Although I realize that guns that aren't made of black plastic look strange to you..

No, they don't look strange to me,Tamara. I've owned/ still own a few rifles constructed of 'wood n' metal'. I'm just going through my 'black plastic' phase..

[ Hey!! Who put that Savage model 99E in .30-.30 in my safe??] :p

[Jake 98c/11b]

Tamara, sorry I missed you guys at the SHOT show I was abusing the Winchester ammunition guys for the rep they sent us to answer our questions at that appointed hour (friday at noon I believe).

Damn nice find by the way, I love the Martini action rifles. One day I will add one to the collection. I am finishing (trying) out the shooters but one day I will go back to add a few collectibles. Before the dreaded Clinton era I had some nice collector pieces. After long and painful deliberation I traded them for serious shooters, now that they are nearing completion I may soon get back to the history of guns. Had an early Colt Python (36xx serial number) that was near mint and an all original 1903 mk1 Springfield I regret parting with.

[Soap]

Tam,

Wonderful little still life there!

[Gewehr98]

Various reports state that in the Army's 1992 attempt to replicate Billy Dixon's famous Adobe Walls shot, the .577-450 was tested against the issued Government .45-70 and Billy's .50-70. Didn't see the .577-450 in this version, but if you consider it to be on par with the .45-90, you get an idea of what it can do. It's a good read, too!

http://the_montanan.tripod.com/Sharps.html

[Sven]

Where _is_ that thread runt started showing off her new brass... er.... plant/tree holder?

[telewinz]

It would be interesting to "develope" a load for that cartridge along with the strong Martini action. When I handed loaded mine the problem was too little powder which caused gas blow back due to a lack of enough pressure for the case to expand. I only used smokeless powder and paper patched bullets, much more flexable than the 45/70 cartridge and alot more fun to shoot and reload. I used cotton balls or toilet paper to fill the "cavern" left after the powder charge, even with 500 grain bullets the recoil wasn't much with that heavy rifle. Good luck