[LRRPS]

Hello all,

I have heard that .223 ammo from Sellier Bellot have a bad tendency to make AR 15 KB.
Anyone knows if that info is correct, if yes which lot of ammo is creating the pb.

Thanks,
LRRPS
:banghead:

[Bottom Gun]

You can most likely find what you are looking for on one of these:

www.ammo-oracle.com

www.aaconsult.com/ammoreview

[WonderNine]

Kabooms? Must be talking about Wolf ammo.

[treeprof]

S&B had some probs w/the 62 gr stuff some time back. Seems to have been fixed. Mine is recent and fine. Search the ammo board at http://www.ar15.com/.

[cheygriz]

Wondernine,

I've never heard of a KB with Wolf!

[444]

I was going to ask the same thing, just how many kabooms have you had with Wolf Ammo ? Can you direct me to a thread that even eludes to a Kaboom with Wolf Ammo ?

Speaking from experience, yesterday I finished 3000 rounds of 5.56 Wolf ammo that I have shot in the last six months. I had exactly zero problems of any kind with it. It is perfectly accurate, and funtions fine out of my six ARs. I also recently bought two cases of PMC and a case of Winchester. The Wincester was $85 per case more expensive than the Wolf. The PMC was around $50 per case more than Wolf. Yet neither one has any advantage over Wolf other than the fact that you get to keep the brass. I bought this other ammo for the Carbine Class at Gunsite which I am attending next week. To prepare for this course I have been shooting my ARs as often as possible. I have fired in excess of 150 rounds every day for the last couple weeks, all Wolf. I am not interested in internet rumor or heresay, Wolf makes quality ammo that leave nothing to be desired. Yes I have shot it on paper extensively, yes I have chronoed it.

[WonderNine]

Wondernine,

I've never heard of a KB with Wolf!

Hmmm.....everyone else has!

[Redlg155]

I've never heard of a KB with Wolf Ammo either.:confused:

Good Shooting
RED

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Hmmm.....everyone else has!

I haven't.

[JohnKSa]

Try Black Hills .223. I use the remanufactured stuff they sell for about $15 for 50 rounds. It shoots under half an inch @ 100 yards out of my Encore rifle.

[Sleeping Dog]

Kabooms? Must be talking about Wolf ammo.

The only boom I've had is out the muzzle, straight at the target. Never a performance problem with Wolf .223 or any other caliber. Not even any lacquer melting into the chamber :)

It burns dirty, smells bad, and isn't reloadable. But, it's cheap and reliable.

Regards.

[Triad]

I've never heard of a KB with Wolf either. Do you have any proof of that?

[Kentucky Rifle]

Is all Wolf .223 "steel case"??

KR

[Bacchus]

The Wolf stuff is steel cased and covered with lacquer. Some people like it (especially because it is inexpensive) and others don't (either because of the lacquer or that you can't reload the cases). To each his/her own.

There were problems, documented on the AR forum, with SS109 62 gr loads a while back. I don't know that the threads specifically implicated Wolf.

If you're shooting factory stuff, the 55 gr loads are probably your best bet.

[Kentucky Rifle]

..in my Bushmaster manual it says "steel cased ammunition will void your warranty". I use 55gr FMJ and 50gr hollow point Federal American Eagle that I buy in 500 round boxes from ammoman.com. All cases are shiny, SHINY(!) brass.
Incredibly, at least for me, the 50gr hollow point is a little more accurate. I always found that a little strange.

KR

[Redlg155]

I've seen the warranty statements from Bushmaster and think that's the craziest thing.

AK and SKS series gobble up thousands of rounds of the stuff, yet Bushmaster thinks it will damage an AR15. I would venture to say most folks shoot Wolf or other steel cased ammo almost exclusively out of their Com-Block weapons.

Go figure.

Good Shooting
RED

[444]

"in my Bushmaster manual it says "steel cased ammunition will void your warranty".

Could you please point out on what page it says that ? I dug out my Bushmaster manual along with the yellow warranty card and I can't seem to find it. One the inside front cover there is the statement Caution: Use Only Clean, Dry, High Quality Commercially Manufactured Ammunition in good contdition which is appropriate to the .223 Rem. caliber of your firearm. We do not recommend the use of remanufactured or hand loaded ammunition because it may damage your rifle. Use of improper ammunition will invalidate your warranty. I don't see anything about useing steel cased ammo. Wolf certainly is clean, dry, high quality commercially manufactured ammo in .223 Rem caliber.

Not trying to bait you, I just don't see it in my manual, it very well may be in there and I missed it.

[Double Naught Spy]

Everyone else has had a KB with Wolf? Wow, that must be some serious bad stuff and all those folks must be dead because I never heard of that either.

[Sir Galahad]

I have never heard of a KB with Wolf ammo over on ak-47.net and all of us over there together shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds of Wolf. I've never had a problem with it at all. I shoot the 7.62x39 and the .40S&W and the 7.62x54. It's funny. The .40 Wolf was more accurate out of my XD-40 than brass-cased Magtech. A guy over at ak-47.net who is tight with Wolf ammo says, rightfully, that Russian made ammo is used all over the world, sometimes all day in some places, without problems. When you consider the sheer amount of ammo in tonnage the Russians make, the quality is actually very high. There are smaller police departments that use Wolf .223 to train with because they're on a tight budget and more rounds for each officer to train with is better than less.

[boing]

At one time there was a thread tacked to the top of the AR.com ammo forum on S&B failures. Someone sectioned some brass and found it to be on the thin side.

I don't know if it was a lot-specific issue, or a general problem with S&B brass. The thread is gone now and the AR search function is limited.

I have some brass from a couple years before this all came to a head, but I haven't measured, or reloaded, any of it.

[Redlg155]

444,

That got me to thinking, because I was sure I had seen it somewhere before. I found it, but it wasn't for the Bushmaster, but rather Olympic Arms.

Here is the link........OlyArms Ammo Warning (http://www.olyarms.com/ammowarning.html)

And a bit of what they say..

Major brands of lacquer coated ammo we have seen are Wolf, most Russian ammo (even if it has the Remington head stamp), Norinco (or most Chinese) and most all former eastern block countries......

Our recommendations: DO NOT USE LACQUER COATED AMMO. Otherwise, be prepared for the consequences. Additionally, most lacquer-coated ammo utilizes steel cases instead of brass. BAD FOR YOUR CHAMBER.

Although Olympic Arms only warrants their firearms when used with new production brass cased US manufactured ammo, we would be remiss to think that the bulk of our customers do not use remanufactured, imported or reloaded ammo. We know that they will, and do. The reason that our warranty does not cover the use of this ammo is as much to protect you, as it is our product and our product.

The claim that the laquer will melt off of the ammunition when heated and when it cools it will create problems and actually in their words "clogging" the barrels.

Still I find it strange that American barrels get clogged and Soviet barrels won't. Oly says that it cuts their chambers tight for more accuracy. I thought we were making a battle rifle here and not a target rifle.

Good Shooting
RED

[444]

It seems like most, if not all firearms manufacturers are forced to CYA by the lawyers. I think almost all of them say that reloads will void your warranty. I wonder what they would say if you told them you wern't firing reloads, they were handloads; the brass had never been loaded before.
The thing about the chamber is the difference between a 5.56 chamber and a .223 Remington chamber. I have only shot Wolf in Bushmaster rifles. They all have 5.56 chambers and have chrome lined chambers and barrels. As I mentioned, I have had no problems at all. I cleaned one of my ARs this morning that had, had well over 500 rounds through it since the last cleaning. I ran 3-4 patches down the barrel, then gave it 20 strokes of a brush, a couple dry patches, and finally ran a couple solvent soaked patches through and allowed it to sit while I cleaned the bolt that the rest of the upper receiver. Approx. 1/2 hour later I ran a dry patch through the bore and the patch came out perfectly white. Not even a blue tinge from copper bullet jacket fouling. These chrome lined barrels clean up faster than anything I have every cleaned, Wolff ammo or not.

I agree with your comment about laquer. Many other countries are running laquered ammo thorugh machine guns and they have no problem at all. You will never begin to get a rifle as hot as a heavy machine gun laying down a beaten zone of fire.

[Triad]

I don't believe the claims about the melting laquer. I've tried to make the stuff melt and never had any success.

[Bottom Gun]

I've shot thousands of rounds of Wolf through my rifles and have never had a problem with it.

[Kentucky Rifle]

I'll try and find my Bushmaster's manual and see if I can get the page number for you. (And me! It's possible that someone at my gun shop just told me that story about using the steel cases. I've had my Bushie for a long time.) I haven't seen the manual for a while, but I'll try and find it and get a page number for you. Meanwhile, if anyone else finds it before I do, please post. It'll save me a lot of digging around and trying to figure out where my wife put the thing. (She's gone for a few days to visit her brother and I can't seem to find anything!)

KR

[boing]

I just went through my Bushmaster manual from 1999 and I couldn't find any mention of laquered or steel cased ammo, just the usual warning about reloads, and the "use of improper ammunition will invalidate your warranty."

BTW- the Bushy manual specifies reloads and handloads.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Well, what do you know?! The Bushie manual was in the first place I looked!
(By the way. You never have to worry about baiting me. :) I'm just a shooter too, and am happy to get the straight scoop on something! No worries, friend.) It seems you're right and I'm wrong. My manual, like yours, says ~"Use only clean, dry, high quality commercially manufactured ammunition in good condition". I was just sure that the manual said not to use steel cased ammunition. I MUST have read that phrase SOMEWHERE about SOME brand of firearm I own! Now, I'll have to try and figure out just which manual said that about steel cases. If anyone knows THAT little piece of info I'd be very grateful if you'd mention it in a post. (Could it have been Glock, maybe?) HUMMmmm.

KR

[GinSlinger]

To get back to the original post for a sec....

S&B KB:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-stop.html

This is the only instance of S&B KB I can find, and it relates to .40. Squib load and unattentive shooter.

Take the time to read the M1A KB story though, interesting bit about after market barrells.

GinSlinger

[444]

boing
I went back and read my own post. It does say handloads. I voided my warranty the first time I fired the rifle. My 16" was only voided the second time I fired the rifle. If I am not mistaken, all the rest have only fired Wolf or Winchester factory ammo. I have started buying .223 factory ammo because Wolf is cheaper than reloading, the American brands are not cheaper than reloading, but reloading rifle cartridges is so time consuming that I can't keep my ARs fed at the rate I churn out ammo. I still load for .223, but it has become just a supplement to the factory stuff.