[TCW]

Hi All,
I was wondering...
If you ever HAD to use a .308 for a defensive situation in an urban setting, is there a round that would expand quickly and not go through five houses before stopping?

TCW

[artherd]

Something like this, 100grain compressed dust frangibles.

Anything else is likely to go a looong way.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?sku=74106

[Preacherman]

Hornady make a 110gr. VMAX bullet in .30 caliber, which should be outstanding as a minimum-penetration, maximum-expansion load. I think they load it in their LE ammo line, but not in their "civilian" loads.

[c_yeager]

Bear in mind that even the frangible .308 ammo is still going to go through a LOT of stuff before it stops. Especially if it doesnt go through the badguy first. IIRC the powdered lead loads are intended to break up against steal targets to eliminate fragments from hitting the shooter.

For some interesting information on this check out AR15.com and look for a thread entitled "the box of truth" in which one of the posters tests a whole bunch of ammunition against common building materials. Even the pistol caliber "Glazer safety slugs" made their way though a suprising amount of sheet rock before coming to a stop.

(completely off topic but interesting none the less was the test involving a heavy hard-cast 45/70 load out of a long barrelled rifle. It made it through something like 12 sheets, 1/2" sheet of plywood, a brick wall, another sheet of plywood, and kept going down range follwed by a cloud of debris. I was impressed).

[Master Blaster]

This is where a pistol caliber carbine, shines.

[TCW]

Master Blaster...I agree. Or a .223, but with louder report than the pistol-caliber carbines.

[Dave R]

I would like to see some testing on that 110gr. V-Max. Speer makes a 120gr(?) .30 varmit bullet, too. Called TNT.

These varmit bullets are supposed to be lightly constructed and designed to come apart on impact, so theoretically they should penetrate a lot less than normal .30 rounds.

Of course, that's all relative and there still may be too much penetration. That's why I'd like to see some tests. Its a given it would penetrate multiple layers of sheetrock. But how about studs?

May have to get motivated and try some myself in the spring. Would a .30 varmit bullet penetrate multiple 2X4's? Segment of brick wall? Would typical insulation reduce the number of layers of wallboard it would penetrate?

[doctorpogo]

We recently went over this on another list that I'm on. The 110 grain Hornady TAP penetrates less than 10" in gelatin (per Hornady) and is therefore probably not a great choice. The general consensus was that anything trustworthy in .308 was probably too significant a downrange risk for home defense, and that a shotgun with 00 or an AR15 would be a much better choice. I keep an AR with 55 grain TAP (bedroom) and a S&W 3000 with reduced recoil 00 buck (shop) for these purposes.

No one I know who has reason to know well would go into a fight behind a pistol caliber as a matter of preference.

-- Jon, KC

[308win]

The Hornady 110V-Max will disintegrate when impacting a one gallon plastic MiracleWhip jar filled with water at ranges up to 250yds (perhaps farther but I haven't shot one farther yet). At 100 yds the plastic container is ripped almost into two pieces and I normally find a fragment or two of the jacket and sometimes a small piece or two of lead. I have shot groundhogs at up to 460 yds and this bullet opens them up at that range. I would expect that it would penetrate several layes of drywall but if it hit a stud there wouldn't be much left of it. It definity would not penetrate brick at any range IMO.

[Black Snowman]

I think over-penetration is an over-inflated issue. In the LA bank shoot-out in an urban area where hundreds of rounds of 7.62x39 was expended indiscriminately there was no loss of life except for the perps. AFAIK the only people hit were the ones being shot at.

IMHO, in the grand scheme of things unless things go very very wrong the odds of you killing someone with a stray round are far less than the odds of an ineffective round resulting in the loss of life of yourself or a loved one.

My HD gun had been my M17S with 55 gr HP .223, my new HD gun is a Mossy Persuader with 1 oz. slugs. I loose a lot of capacity and ROF goes right out the window but I'm much more confident that I can hit my target and that it will have an imitate and dramatic effect.

YMMV and all that :)

[El Rojo]

I have real world experience with Hornady 110gr. V-max and Speer 125gr. TNT HP on flesh. I think these two rounds would be your best choice if you were concerned about over-penetration in a home defense situation (I think I would care less about over-penetration and more about killing the SOB, but that is just me).

First, the 110gr. V-max is super explosive. Every coyote I have shot with it stops there. Most of the time the coyote has a huge entry wound about 4-6" in diameter and not much of an exit wound. The same round launches squirrels 5 to 15 yards and blows rabbits into bits. I couldn't imagine a 110gr. V-max traveling at 3000 FPS retaining much energy after hitting a 6" thick man at less than 15 yards. I don't think I want to try it.

The 125gr. Speer TNT HP also has a devestating effect on coyotes. Pretty much the same thing as the V-max. One good example is a coyote that whose body was facing me. I shot him in the chest and there was absolutely no exit wounds!!! There was a little larger than .30 caliber entry wound so that means his entire body absorbed the bullet! I could only imagine what his insides looked like. I have also literally gutted coyotes with the 125gr. TNTs (the bullet did it, not me). I did shoot one small to medium sized wild pig with a 125 gr. TNT. It wasn't the greatest shot in the world. It hit him further back than I wanted and sort of high. It is hard to recall, but I think there was an exit wound. I am pretty sure that it basically destroyed his spinal column and did have some exit. Even though it wasn't where I wanted the shot to hit, he dropped immediately and was dead right there.

I would guess that the 110 gr. V-max or 125 gr. TNT HP would be your best bet for the least amount of money spent. I personally don't care and if I have my M1 Garand or M1A and need to shoot someone, they are getting 150 gr. FMJ/BT. That is why I have the 12 gauge (#4 buck) next to the bed along with the M1 Carbine and the Glock 27. Unfortunately I know a 110 gr. M1 Carbine round will go through a glass window, travel 30-40 yards, go through a common house wall, into a dry glass aquarium, and stop at a petrified rock. What will it do after it hits a person? I doubt it would go that far.

Again, practice hitting what you are aiming at and use that. I think everything else gets into the SHTF realm of over thinking something that isn't really all that important. I personally don't want to plan on missing the guy in my hallway late at night. I only want to shoot as many times it takes to hit him and get him to stop his actions. No more, no less.

[Dave R]

Good info, El Rojo. Thanks.

[spurrit]

For defense, I'd use a hollowpoint with a REALLY big hole. Personally, I think the best HOME defense is a clip fed autoloading shotgun, using low brass buskshot loads. 00 is my choice. It won't penetrate a wall at killing velocity like a slug would, it will take out anything in the hallway, and, being clip fed, you can keep it by the bed, w/the mags. in a beside pistol safe )keeping children out of it) If you have an intruder, just grab the gun, stuff in a mag, release the bolt, and you're good to go! I'd also keep spare mags in a clip on carrier, so you can clip it onto your shorts. (Unless you're going commando!)

[Feanaro]

It won't penetrate a wall at killing velocity like a slug would,

If a round won't penetrate a house wall with lethal velocity then I doubt it will do much to a human. Birdshot goes right through a wall. As does a 7.62x39 HP. (I didn't do either. But someone fired a HP round from my SKS through one of the walls in the house. It went right through a stud. The birdshot incident was related by a friend. Went through two walls)

[neolithic hunter]

not my first chioce. the 30 cal. rounds were designed to hit a target at more than 1000 meters. i think you need a handgun, shotgun, big knife, or a big rock but i do not think i would trust even the frag. rounds in my house. too many kids to take a chance with.

[Eric Bryant]

The Hornady TAP would be the best choice in commercially-loaded ammunition (I recalled reading that they're going to now offer it as a self-defense ammo, instead of "LE only"). I haven't performed any unscientific milk-jug and wallboard tests, so I can't really comment on its performance. I can say that the Winchester Silvertip 55gr .243 load will stop inside of a 1-gallon water-filled jug, but will also make one heck of a mess after penetrating 2" of wood - enough that I wouldn't want to be on the other side of that board, or a couple layers of wallboard for that matter. It wouldn't be my first choice in an apartment complex.

[hightech]

I would agree with Master Blaster and TCW. I use a Kel-tec sub-2000 carbine in 9mm built for Beretta magazines. This gives me low end 357 mag velocities out to 75 meters and the magazines are modified for operation in my Springfield Arsenal XD 9 service model. All of the magazines are interchangeable, in fact SA use to sell Beretta hi capacity magazines modified for the full size pistols.

[artherd]

I would agree with Master Blaster and TCW. I use a Kel-tec sub-2000 carbine in 9mm built for Beretta magazines. This gives me low end 357 mag velocities out to 75 meters and the magazines are modified for operation in my Springfield Arsenal XD 9 service model. All of the magazines are interchangeable, in fact SA use to sell Beretta hi capacity magazines modified for the full size pistols.

Not a horrible choice, but you will over-penetrate compared to .223 to a spactacular degree.

[nbkky71]

Has anyone looked at, or used, PMC Green frangible ammo?
http://www.pmcgreen.com/308win-g.php

[mamba]

Hornady TAP LE (now civilian version?) 155gr.