[Old Dog]

Here's a sad situation:

Monday, January 10, 2005
Police hunt killer by targeting all men in town
Request for DNA samples raises concerns over rights
By PAM BELLUCK
THE NEW YORK TIMES
TRURO, Mass. -- Stopping in the Highland Grill on a frigid Friday, Jeff Evans plunked down $2 for a brownie almost as big as a paperback book. Then, before he left the grill, a burger-and-pizza joint in the upper crook of Cape Cod, Evans handed over something else: his DNA.
At the prompting of a state police detective and a Truro police officer parked at the Highland Grill's counter, Evans, 46, a pest exterminator, wiped the inside of his cheek with a lollipoplike cotton swab, capturing a smidgen of genetic evidence to give to the government men. Sam Scherer, 18, another Highland Grill patron, had already done the same thing. So had Jerrid Bearse, 20.
Police officers here are trying to get DNA from every man in Truro, all 790 or so, or as many as will agree. It is an unusual last-ditch gambit for clues to a 3-year-old killing: the stabbing death of Christa Worthington, 46, a freelance fashion writer who had lived in New York, Paris and London, but who had retreated to this quiet town a few years before.
Although some residents are complying with the request for DNA, others are uncomfortable with the idea of providing such personal information. Worthington was the single mother of a 2-year-old girl, Ava, who was found alive clinging to her mother's body on the floor of their bungalow. Semen was found on Worthington's body, and over the past three years, the police have investigated a former boyfriend and several other men, including a married man who is Ava's father.
"All those people are ruled out at this point," said police Sgt. David Perry
Then the police sought help from the FBI, which said it thought the killer had Truro ties and suggested trying to match the semen in a global genetic canvass. Perry and other law enforcement authorities here say that the program is voluntary but that they will pay close attention to those who refuse to provide DNA.
"We're trying to find that person who has something to hide," Perry said.
That has prompted complaints from some residents who feel the DNA sweep is coercive.
"I think it's outrageous," said Dick Seed, 44, a Truro sign painter who called the American Civil Liberties Union to complain.
Mass DNA collection drives, as needle-in-a-haystack as they might sound, have yielded results in criminal investigations in England and Germany. In this country, the technique has been tried in a few places, generally with less success. It is usually used in a more targeted way than in Truro.
"They're not very effective, and they're certainly not voluntarily," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the technology and liberty project at the American Civil Liberties Union. "It's either give a sample or you're a suspect. It turns the classic American concept of innocent until proven guilty on its head."

[Nehemiah Scudder]

Goooo ACLU!!!

[HankB]

At the prompting of a state police detective and a Truro police officer parked at the Highland Grill's counter, Evans, 46, a pest exterminator, wiped the inside of his cheek with a lollipoplike cotton swab, capturing a smidgen of genetic evidence to give to the government men. Sounds like a good reason to boycott the Highland Grill.

[cookekdjr]

What's the big deal? They ask people to voluntarily give DNA. You say take a hike, they have no recourse. All the folks who give a swab of DNA are ruled out. In other words, they narrow the suspect pool. Police do have time to harass innocent folks for nothing.
If you say no, and the police do anything to bug you about changing your mind, then your consent will probably be ruled coerced by a trial judge. Then the evidence can't be admitted against you at trial
Of course, that's assuming the DNA comes back to show you are the killer. :)
If they harass you for your DNA and you are innocent, you can always file suit. I'm sure the ACLU will gladly represent you...whether you're the killer or not.

[P95Carry]

The line in the sand ......... it creeps a tad further toward compulsory... and total loss of privacy.

I am all for catching killers, don't get me wrong. But it does not take too much imagination to see the day when each person is bio-tagged and on their ID card (compulsory) is a DNA fingerprint - goodbye to ol' fashioned fingerprints.

Should someone be making a ''work in progress'' - the novel, ''2084''??

[BryanP]

How long will it be before you have to submit DNA when you get a traffic ticket? One day when testing gets quick and cheap enough I predict the NICS check will involve a DNA comparison.

[R.H. Lee]

It's just a lazy man's way to do police work. They need to get busy and work other leads to narrow down possible suspects.

[Brian D.]

You folks don't think the guilty party could be a non-resident of Truro, do ya? Sounds like they need to widen the "Dragnet" to all of Mass. at the very least.

[rock jock]

Folks, this is not Big Brother. This is voluntary. Its no different than the program we recently read about in Chicago where people let the police in their house to do a sweep for guns. They ask, you say no. Case closed.

BTW, the fact that the ACLU is vocally against this does not redeem that disgusting organization one iota in my eyes.

[TheEgg]

As long as the key word here is voluntary ----

Nothing to see here folks, move along. :)

[Justin]

Taken as a direct quote from the article:

Perry and other law enforcement authorities here say that the program is voluntary but that they will pay close attention to those who refuse to provide DNA.

Seriously, how much more blatantly obvious does it have to be, folks?

[P95Carry]

Exactly Justin ... potentially guilty thru omission.

''I want three volunteers'' ......

''You, you, and you''!

[R.H. Lee]

Perry and other law enforcement authorities here say that the program is voluntary but that they will pay close attention to those who refuse to provide DNA. They always love not so veiled threats, just so we know who's really in charge. :rolleyes:

[tyme]

Uh, right. We know how that goes. It's voluntary until 95% of the population "volunteers", at which point the entire remaining 5% is perpetually under suspicion until they "volunteer" as well.

The entire scheme fails unless LE can psychologically coerce everyone into "volunteering." If a lot of people fail to "volunteer" -- enough so that not all of them can be placed under suspicion -- the purpose of DNA screening a population disintegrates.

[Erich]

I was glad to read that they're not exactly being overwhelmed with volunteers.

Man, what would the Adams boys have thought of this happening in their beloved Massachusetts?

[pax]

Perry and other law enforcement authorities here say that the program is voluntary but that they will pay close attention to those who refuse to provide DNA.

"We're trying to find that person who has something to hide," Perry said.
Obviously, if you object to putting personal information in a goverment database, you have something to hide.

You couldn't possibly want to maintain your personal privacy, otherwise.

pax

If you don't have anything to hide, why aren't you walking around naked? -- pax

[HankB]

Its no different than the program we recently read about in Chicago where people let the police in their house to do a sweep for guns. They ask, you say no. Case closed. What program was this? :confused:

Several years ago, during the Clinton administration, Chicago PD was doing sweeps of apartments in public housing projects. It was anything BUT voluntary, and caused quite an uproar. (I remember one woman on TV complaining that the "po-lice" kept repeatedly forcing their way into her apartment and going through her drawers of undies.) Lawsuits resulted in Federal courts prohibiting these on 4th Amendment grounds. Daley (Da Mayor) and Clinton vowed to resume these searches, but couldn't weasel around that pesky 4th Amendment. I thought the issue had gone away.

[R.H. Lee]

Daley (Da Mayor) and Clinton vowed to resume these searches, but couldn't weasel around that pesky 4th Amendment. I thought the issue had gone away.
In a sane world, they both would have been indicted for civil rights violations.

[rock jock]

The entire scheme fails unless LE can psychologically coerce everyone into "volunteering."
That's not going to happen. You don't have to be an ultra-libertarian to object to this program. They can "suspect" you all they want, but they ain't ever going to get warrant based on "Mr. Rock Jock won't give us his DNA so he's probably guilty."

[Stand_Watie]

Perry and other law enforcement authorities here say that the program is voluntary but that they will pay close attention to those who refuse to provide DNA.

In other words it's not voluntary.

A tragedy for justice in this specific instance, but probably an overall plus for our civil rights will be if they catch the guy after he "volunteers" and then have the evidence tossed on appeal.

[brian roberts]

and its so convenient, too. if there's EVER a suspicion in the future, they'll just drag yer deena out of their little warehouse over thar in west virginny, where its been sitting in their files. god, ol' j. edgar would LOVE this.

[Standing Wolf]

Perry and other law enforcement authorities here say that the program is voluntary but that they will pay close attention to those who refuse to provide DNA.

Yeah, but we're not a police state, since after all, only those who fail to bow down to the police are suspects.

[Gordon Fink]

You don’t have to be an ultra-libertarian to object to this program.…

Unfortunately, these days, you do. :(

~G. Fink

[Brian D.]

Now that I think about it, given the nature of ther crime, this "DNA Dragnet" needs to be extended to any male Kennedy family members living within drunk driving distance of Truro...

[feedthehogs]

They ask, you say no. Case closed

Which world does this happen in?

[Sean85746]

ACLU= All Criminals Love U

[jojo]

No freaking way, not gonna happen.

I can't believe, .............well nowadays maybe I can. Sheeple abound. :confused:

jojo

[DRZinn]

Disgusting. NO, YOU MAY NOT. %^#&^#$ off.

[Lone_Gunman]

What happens to the DNA sample after they have ruled you out for the murder?

Is it entered into a government data base and kept indefinitely? If so, for what purpose?

Can it be provided to third parties in the future, such as insurance companies?

There is no way in hell I would give them a DNA sample unless I was compelled to.

[赤悪魔]

DNA proves nothing ask AC he was there.

"this is AC I have OJ in the car"

[R.H. Lee]

There is no way in hell I would give them a DNA sample unless I was compelled to. Ditto that. And they'd have to hold me down to do it. Papers wouldn't get it. :fire:

[Freedomv]

I would ask if the Mayor, police chief, officers etc etc have provided their's and still tell them NO. Go fish somewhere else.
Vern

[MAURICE]

All excellent points here, but I want to approach this from a different direction.
How much are these DNA tests costing the cities tax payers?
I would be outraged and the thought of something like this happening in my city. YES-Find the badguys and lock them up. But do some real detective work here. How many DNA tests times how many dollard per test? Get real. Are your kids school books in tatters? Potholes in your street? Ate the police and firemen using shiny new top of the line equipment or beaten up stuff drom the mid 90s? Lets spend tax money where it needs to be spent. Am I off base here?

I cant believe this method has actually worked before in Europe.

Edited for speeling errors.

[rock jock]

Yeah, but we're not a police state, since after all, only those who fail to bow down to the police are suspects.
Not quite. In a police state, they wouldn't ask, they would take, either from you voluntarily, or from your lifeless body. Has this happened?

[why_me]

I know its not real life but......

There was a law and order episode. Where this hit man, went to a funeral director. Got tissue and blood from corpses. Then he would plant the tissue and blood on his hits. Everytime the CSI would find the "perpetrators" dna hair blood on the murder victims. It would not lead to this guy. Who wore gloves, a hat and a coat. Problem came up when a dna sample matched a dead guy. They had the dead guys dna catalogued from another case.
Side note. The crooked funeral director was a guy who ran a crematorium and never cremated the people. Just let them lay around his property. Thats how the got the hit man.

[Freedomv]

That is a good point Maurice. That would fall under the headings of the government "Creating Jobs" and they would brag about it how they created new jobs in the county or state etc, but who pays? The TAX PAYER and the ligitimate activities such as schools etc who just can't seem to find the funds to operate with out increasing TAXES yet again.
People just don't seem to understand and believe the "GOVERNMENT" well take care of them. Yup, They sure well.

Vern

[publius]

Perry and other law enforcement authorities here say that the program is voluntary but that they will pay close attention to those who refuse to provide DNA.
"We're trying to find that person who has something to hide," Perry said.

Hey, they're trying to find me! ;)

This reminds me of morons who want to upend the 4th amendment...

Why are you worried about searches if you have nothing to hide? Let 'em search whatever they want!

4. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I'll let 'em search whatever they have probable cause to search. Wanting to protect personal medical information is not probable cause and should not cause anyone to "pay close attention" to me.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

TRURO, Mass.Says a lot. I would hope this sort of thing wouldn't happen in the United States.

- pdmoderator

[Intune]

Let's say that I just happen by the Highland Grill that day while on vacation with my family. Officer Friendly asks for a DNA reaming and I refuse. His next line is then to pony up some I.D. big boy so you can go on our "list." I would be beyond pissed.

[JPL]

And people wonder why I hate the police?

[Molon Labe]

And what are the investigators doing with the "DNA samples"? My guess is that they're not being tested, but are instead thrown in the trash.

It's very simple (and clever) idea: anyone who voluntarily submits a "DNA sample" is not a suspect. Anyone who refuses is. :mad:

[Havegunjoe]

"How long will it be before you have to submit DNA when you get a traffic ticket? One day when testing gets quick and cheap enough I predict the NICS check will involve a DNA comparison."

Read a little earlier in Green Bay WI you will be fingerprinted for a traffic stop.

[gigmike]

This story highlights how easy it is to entice a population to give up liberties in order to gain a little security. Unfortunately that security is almost always false.

[Turkey Creek]

Does anyone not think, that in the not too distant future, all new borns will have a DNA sample taken as a standard part of neo natal care?- it could be easily presented as a proof positive procedure that gets the right baby to the right parents- who's going to argue with that?- national ID's, we don't need no stinking ID's, we got your genetic code right here in this giant data base- might as well get used to the idea 'cause it's coming and there's not much in this day and age that's going to prevent it- if there were iron clad procedures in place to safeguard the info, and prevent abuse of the data, it in fact probably wouldn't be such a poor idea- if you're a good guy nothing to fear, and if you're a crook you could run but you couldn't hide, at least for long- the problem of course is that this type of sensitive information is always subject to abuse from the unscrupulous for a myriad of reasons- but as my old Dad used to say, "son, those bumps on your head will go away when you stop beating your head against those things in this world that you have no control over"-

[Freedomv]

Turkey Creek,
You are a true prophet. (no joke intended) I can see it happening in the not too distant future.

As someone else has said "IT's for the children you know."

It's for homeland defence, Guarding against Social Security fraud, a good positive ID that cannot fail, etc. etc and could be taken with a blood test at birth etc without your knowledge or consent just as baby footprints and hand prints.

"Don't leave home without it."

With this information in a world wide data base and new technology that could make instantanious checking possible the prophecy of not doing buisness etc without the mark on your hand or forehead is in the fore-see-able future.

It is the closest thing to the "Mark of the beast" prophecy in the bible that I could possible think of. The beast of course is the government or goverments of the world.

The DNA information could also be used in a future "smart gun" that is being talked about and sought after by various groups.
Hopefully not in my lifetime.
Vern

[tyme]

but as my old Dad used to say, "son, those bumps on your head will go away when you stop beating your head against those things in this world that you have no control over"
That defeatist attitude belongs in Britain, not in the U.S. There is very little in the world we have no control over, and what there is is shrinking all the time as we get better at manipulating nature. In politics, we have a great degree of control over everything. Many political movements began with a handful of people, sometimes even with a (single) demagogue.

There's plenty of anti-government sentiment in the U.S, though it's not exactly the same sentiment displayed daily on these forums; it only needs to be harnessed. If you don't think you can influence politics, you will not influence politics.

[jojo]

Well said tyme, I agree completely.

Never ever give up.

jojo

[Turkey Creek]

Tyme- for the most part I couldn't disagree more- I don't think we have anywhere near as much controll in this world as you depict we have- our lives can turn on a dime for no apparent reason despite our best efforts- I agree with you that we should always fight the good fight so to speak, and make our best efforts to have things turn out as we wish- but I think we have to pick and choose our battles and concentrate on those that are most important to us- I'm sorry you misread a "defeatist" attitude in my statement- that's not what I was saying at all- what I am saying is that there are some things in this world we may be able to influence with our best efforts, but there are as many and probably more that we can't do much about, and this is one of them- certainly, fight like a tiger for those things you believe in, but don't expend valuable energy on every lost cause that rounds the bend- we each have our own line in the sand for issues of importance that varies from individual to individual- I will fight for those hopeless causes that are the most important to me- this is not one of them- hopefully this better explains what I was trying to say- now I've tried to be civil with all this but I must also express to you my distaste for the tone of your opening sentence-

[another okie]

When an armed police officer asks you for something, that may be "voluntary" in the eyes of the law, but many folks feel they have no choice. That's why so many criminals consent to searches of their cars and houses - they don't really believe the officer is asking, they think he's demanding. And they're not far wrong. What is the traditional police officer's compliance method? "First I'm going to ask you, then I'm going to tell you, then I'm going to make you." I think the average person, asked to do something by an armed officer, assumes that the officer has a right to force them to do it.

And if you doubt this is true, let me ask you whether you think the compliance rate for this DNA sampling would be different if a public health nurse asked or if a police officer asked.

[Yooper]

Apparently there are many who believe that DNA testing of individuals is an invasion of privacy at some level, myself included. If we are a representative cross-section of the general public, then law enforcement needs to be made aware of that fact and use DNA testing minimally. This would include narrowing the number of suspects down to just a few and using DNA tests from there. I'm sure "probable cause" enters the equation at some point, but suspecting an entire male population is beyond reason.

[fistful]

And what are the investigators doing with the "DNA samples"? My guess is that they're not being tested, but are instead thrown in the trash. Thank you. Why test a bunch of samples that have nothing to do with the case? Could it be the cops have reason to suspect that the killer frequents the restaurant, and they are waiting for suspicious behavior? That's why ovine compliance is the best course, fellow subjects.

Your vocabulary word for the day, and one that needs to enter the libertarian lexicon: "ovine" - sheep-like.

[publius]

That is a good word, but I'm not sure I need to spend that much time explaining that I didn't just misspell "bovine." ;)

[Chris Rhines]

Would I get to pick the manner in which I donate my DNA? :evil:

- Chris

[DRZinn]

Would I get to pick the manner in which I donate my DNA?<spits on the floor>

[fistful]

Doc Zinn, that was lovely, but I think Chris had something less polite in mind.

Aaaactually Publius, as I was writing that post, I wanted to say sheep-like, but with some degree of elegance. I entered the words "latin" and "sheep-like," and found a dictionary entry; "ovine." I then bethought myself, "Why is it that I have never seen this most useful of words on the High Road, or in other rugged-individualist media?" Or have I seen it, but just skipped over it, in my ignorance? In any case, I hope others will begin to use it, just for fun.

[publius]

I had never seen it. I thought it was a typo when I saw it.

[Delmar]

I'll bet Teddy Kennedy's is marked "Flammable-no smoking within 50 ft." :what: Easy to get, too-just wipe up the drool from the nearest bar......

[DRZinn]

Doc Zinn, that was lovely, but I think Chris had something less polite in mind.I know. I was just trying preemptively to keep it on the High Road. Anyway, it's something you could probably get away with.