[Weezer]

It seems the vast majority of people carry thier CCW weapon with one in the chamber. This question is mainly for Glock owners; do any of you carry without one in the chamber?

Thanks

[blades67]

No. I don't carry dull knives either.

[MacPelto]

I have carried a Glock daily, for years now, with a round chambered. No ill effects yet...

Keep it in a good holster.

YMMV

[DeltaElite]

Nope.
IMHO, only a fool would do that. :D

I know that some do, but I think it is foolish.

[isaidme]

I would on a glock!But with a 1911 or hi-power I would have one chambered.

[El Tejon]

Why would you carry an empty gun?

[DeltaElite]

Remember, an unloaded gun is just a very poorly designed impact weapon. ;)

[Soap]

Why make a bad situation more complicated? Guns don't just "go off" anyway. Always keep your gun loaded.

[Mark IV Series 80]

Anyone carry with an empty chamber?

This question is mainly for Glock owners; do any of you carry without one in the chamber?If you carry a Glock, and you are concerned about carrying it with a round chambered, you can get one of these:

http://dillonprecision.com/content/image/200/i_0115.jpg

http://www.tulsafirearms.com/online-catalog/locks-safes/saf-t-blok-glock.htm

[Archie]

No.

[bad_dad_brad]

Well, I almost blew my gonads off once shoving a Kahr MK9 in my waistband. The key to carrying chambered in a pistol like a Glock or Kahr is HOLSTER! If you do that you are fine.

[Kahr carrier]

Nope always like one in the spout.:)

[Standing Wolf]

No, and I don't let my car's fuel tank run dry, either.

[P95Carry]

In my P95, yes of course. but I have to admit...... and usually suffer derision for owning up .... in my HP (FEG) I do carry on empty chamber .. just me! But then, over many years I have been using a draw technique where as the gun comes out I am racking it .. so the time lost is actually very small.

Critical some might say. Well, maybe but . with enough practice the whole draw can be a smooth flowing action ... it works for me anyways.

Call me odd ... I'm too thick skinned to worry!:p

[J Miller]

The only gun I cary with an empty chamber under the hammer is an OLD STYLE single action revolver.
Autos and all other revolvers are caried full up.

[dairycreek]

I understand the anguish that some feel when carrying one in the chamber of a Glock. Some have that same feeling about carrying in Condition One with a 1911. If you are not comfortable with carrying a gun with one in the chamber. Change your gun. It makes very little sense to carry a gun as a means of self protection and not have it instantaneously ready at the moment it might be needed. Good shooting;)

[Old Fuff]

I know an individual who carries his Glock with an empty chamber and cycles the slide when he draws. He is not slow. When I carry an autoloader it usually has the chamber loaded, but not always. Simply walking around in the field doesn't require Condition One.

[Mastrogiacomo]

God -- I should write that arguement down so I can run it by the police chief. I have a Class B so Glock, Beretta, Sig, H&K or S&W -- I HAVE to carry visable and unloaded. Now who's dumb idea is this for gun permit applicants? :banghead: :fire: :mad: :cuss:

[Skunkabilly]

My shooting instructor: "What are you, a liberal? Carrying with an empty chamber is for pacifists!" :D

[Schuey2002]

I have from time to time, but I normally pack with "one up the barrel"..;)

[SteelyDan]

Can't carry here (yet, may change in the next two months), but if it were legal I think I'd keep the chamber empty. Most of the mechanical things I've operated over the years have screwed up one time or another (or, to be fair, maybe I screwed some of them up, but that distinction doesn't matter here). Compared to not being able to carry at all, the extra half-second it takes to work the slide seems like seems like a minor price to pay for the extra margin of safety. If it were a higher threat level situation, my opinion would change. But for a trip to McDonald's with my kids? Nope.

[10-Ring]

No empty chamber here either.

[sm]

No

[Lennyjoe]

Absolutely NOT. Always loaded, chambered and ready to rock. The time it takes you to chamber a round just might cost you your life.

Thats a chance I aint willing to take.

God forbid I ever have to use my weapon on another human being but if I do I want to be ready in every way and come out ahead of the perp.

[Thumper]

I know an individual who carries his Glock with an empty chamber and cycles the slide when he draws. He is not slow

I agree that you can get pretty fast cycling the slide with both hands.

Unfortunately, predators don't attack from across the street. They could be on ya and cuttin'.

That might tend to slow down your drawstroke. Why complicate things?

[Baron Holbach]

Yes, I carry a round in the chamber in my Glocks and other pistols. However, as a lefty I prefer the Beretta 92FS due to its ambidextrous safety.

[M1911]

I know an individual who carries his Glock with an empty chamber and cycles the slide when he draws. He is not slow. When I carry an autoloader it usually has the chamber loaded, but not always.I'm sure he's fast. With both hands. How fast is he when one of his hands is pushing a loved one to cover? Or fending off the perp? Or opening a door?

I strongly recommend AGAINST sometimes carrying with chamber loaded and sometimes not. If the SHTF, you will react as you have trained. If you have trained condition 1 but your gun is in condition 3, you may well forget that your chamber is empty -- after all, you'll have some other pressing issues to be thinking about.

Fight the way you train and train the way you fight. If you decide to carry condition 3, fine. Train that way and carry that way. If you decide to carry condition 1, fine. Train that way and carry that way. Mixing and matching is a good way to screw up under pressure.

[Logistar]

I USED to carry without one in the chamber. I thought it was "SAFE". ONCE in a while I have screwed up while chambering a round. (Hand slipped off, etc.) I suppose I should be more careful... but how do you know that it won't be pouring down rain when you have to draw? What if that first round jams for whatever reason????

So I went to one in chamber, safety on. I practiced this for a while. I was pretty good at it. Then one day, I went out to the farm, set up some targets, then walked through them and at random intervals pretended they were BGs and drew and fired on them. Unfortunately, I did not swipe the safety EVERY time. Most of the time, yes. But under "pressure" and at high speed I occasionally failed. Having to take a second or third swipe at the safety might just get me (or you) killed.

My current mode of carry is round chambered, safety OFF, gun ALWAYS holstered. I have ONLY DA guns. With the hammer down, I am satisfied that there is NO WAY this gun is going off unless I pull the trigger (Hammer blocks, etc.) and THAT can only happen after the gun is removed from the holster. (All my holsters COMPLETELY cover the trigger and trigger guard.)

With ANY GUN I have, if it is in the holster then I am sure that one pull of the trigger and I get a bang. - that goes for my Taurus, my Beretta, and my revolver. - No chambering, no safety, etc.

If you are "new" to carrying, I would suggest that you do not do anything you don't feel comfortable with but I bet many of you (over time) will end up agreeing with me. (Except for all you SA guys who carry C&L of course.)

Comments?

Logistar

[MacPelto]

You can test the amount of danger quite easily. Carry it for a while cocked, but with the chamber empty. With a Glock, all you have to do is look at the trigger to see if it has been pulled. If you carry it for 'N' amount of time (however long makes you feel warm and fuzzy) without the trigger unintentionally pulling on the empty chamber, you'll realize that you'll be fine. If you DO find the trigger pulled, you should figure out what caused it to happen, becuase it wasn't caused by magic.;)

[mrt]

after that last post I had to write...I think a trained draw is what's needed (whatever your mode)...to carry also means practice. but without turning this into a long discussion...I like the safety on ...now when I draw I don't even think about flipping a safety. ..cause I practice in condition 1.

[curt]

I think its safer to carry with one in the pipe. You are carrying because of some possibility that you will need to use it, why compromise that? Moving to cover or fending off the attacker with your weakhand could seriously compromise your ability to rack the slide. Also i would think there would be a higher probablity of setting a round off premarturely as your racking the slide while trying to acquire the front sight and doing all of the rest of your dance. I think the key to carrying any loaded pistol is to ensure that the trigger quard is covered eliminating the possibility of something other than your finger operating the trigger.

In my opinion people that carry unloaded are too uncomfortable with their skills or choice of weapon. IMO thats the problem that needs, and can, be fixed.

BTW even if something spontaneously broke in a Glock the striker is only partially precocked and unlikely to set off a round.

[Mal H]

No. It can be debated that having a round in the chamber is just as safe, all things considered, as not having one. You have to chamber one when the gun is drawn. You are generally going to be under a much higher stress level at that time with a much higher probability of something going wrong.

Besides why would I want to give up 10 to 15% of my available ammo?

[Logistar]

What I was saying was that I see no need to use the safety on a DA gun. Unless that hammer is pulled back AND the trigger is pulled, nothing is going to happen. (All my guns have hammer blocks.) Whether I pick up a revolver or one of my semis, it is the same thing... draw weapon pull trigger.

My opinion is that there are 2 ways to go:

DA - hammer down - safety off (or nonexistant)
SA - cocked and locked.

With DA, your first shot might be more inaccurate due to the longer, harder pull.

With SA, you have to get that safety off. I am not saying that you can't do it reliably. it is just that I was practicing it and seemed fine. When I really "pushed myself", I was less than 100% .:uhoh:

Since I have revolvers, autos WITH safeties, and autos WITHOUT safeties, I feel my best bet is to K.I.S.S. - pull gun, pull trigger.

Just my .02 - Not trying to start anything. When I started carrying a couple of years ago and found TFL, I disagreed with many of the guys there (C&L, etc.). Over time, I have found mostly that *I* was wrong and you guys were right. - Just wanted to give guys (especially newbies) some things to think about!

Logistar

[Soap]

In addition to what M1911 said, how the heck can you go into a proper retention position if you carry without one in the chamber? Go go Gadget arms!

[Leibster]

It might be relevant to point out that "Condition 3" carry is the preferred mode of carry in Israel, where the threat level is relatively high.

The Israelis (including civilians, police and military) have extensively proven this technique not on the range, but in battle. Sure preferences may vary, but to say condition 3 carry is always a bad idea is to deny the fact that it's been very, very effective for a pretty sizeable sample group.

Another benefit of this mode of carry is that there is almost never an accidental discharge.

Not that there's anything wrong with condition one carry, but realistically speaking, it's hard to deny that chamber empty carry works.

--Leibster

[DeltaElite]

I know that the Israelis practice this method of carry, but that doesn't make it any more effective, only more commonplace.

I will continue to carry a with a round chambered, since it is the more effective method for immediate defensive needs.

[Old Fuff]

I think there is a presumption here that anyone who carries a loaded pistol does so in a weapon/self-defense context. This is not always the case. I wouldn’t argue with those who chose to carry the chamber loaded in the mentioned environment. In fact, on those occasions when I carry a pistol as a weapon the chamber is loaded. However when this is not the case and the “threat level” is extremely low I may, or may not have the chamber loaded – it all depends on the circumstances.

My friend has made a judgment call and decided to carry his Glock with the chamber empty. Obviously this is not the popular way with most of those who have posted to this thread, and they too have a right to use their own judgment. But the original question was “does anyone carry a pistol with the chamber empty?” The answer is yes, some do – but they are apparently a small minority.

[M1911]

Olf Fuff: I have no problem with someone deciding to carry condition 3. It's their choice. It does have an advantage -- less chance of an ND. But it also has disadvantages as well.

[Leibster]

DeltaElite,

I certainly don't have anything against carrying with a loaded chamber, but it seems you have a beef with chamber empty carry. Further, it seems that your opinion is based solely on feeling, rather objective data.

Rare is the task that has only one correct way to accomplish it. The fact is that while some Americans do well with condition one carry, Israelis do quite well in handgun fights, even with the condition 3 carry mode. It's well documented, and if there were significant problems in performance because of this carry method, the Israelis would have switched long ago.

To argue condition 3 carry is less effective than C&L, for example, would simply be to ignore facts. Israelis overwhelmingly continue to carry this way not only because it's safer in terms of ADs, but also because it seems to be working just fine for them.

--Leibster

[isaidme]

I see racking a Glock the same as racking a shotgun except you only have to do it the first round.Its quick,One condition rather your carying it or have it in drawer,No mistakes to be made!The trigger saftey isnt a saftey people:D

[Spackler]

The fact is that while some Americans do well with condition one carry, Israelis do quite well in handgun fights, even with the condition 3 carry mode. It's well documented, and if there were significant problems in performance because of this carry method, the Israelis would have switched long ago.

There's a big difference between a professional shooter carrying chamber-empty and Joe CCW carrying chamber-emtpy. The Israelis are highly trained pros. If I had the training and experience they had, I'm sure I'd be comfortable carrying that way as well.

[Leibster]

There's a big difference between a professional shooter carrying chamber-empty and Joe CCW carrying chamber-emtpy. The Israelis are highly trained pros. If I had the training and experience they had, I'm sure I'd be comfortable carrying that way as well.

Actually, that's not quite true. The military units that use handguns are highly trained. The police probably get a bit more firearms training than average American police depts. but not a great deal more. And most average civilians are (at best!) trained to about the same level as the average American CCW holder. Yet all three of these groups overwhelmingly carry condition 3, with good results.

I know because I lived there for some years, spent some time in the military and trained with some counter-terror types. I also personally know people who've gotten their gun from from condition 3 into action fast enough to save their lives.

I'm not knocking condition one carry at all; I've got nothing against it for any responsible person who feels comfortable with that mode of carry.

What I am saying is that there is a huge body of evidence that shows that condition 3 is ALSO an effective mode of carry, and I am a little surprised by all those who bash it as a viable technique.

--Leibster

[Spackler]

I also personally know people who've gotten their gun from from condition 3 into action fast enough to save their lives.

Can't help but think they would have been faster, with less room for error, if they didn't have to chamber a round.

Chamber-empty is not for me, but if you feel comfortable carrying that way, it sure beats not carrying at all. I'll still contend that for somebody of average skills and training, carrying chamber-empty leaves more room for error than not.

[mete]

Do you really think that the bad guy is going to give you 10 minutes to 'get ready' ? Racking the slide takes two hands , try that when you are using one hand to do things like blocking a blow with a baseball bat. If you don't trust the gun you have get one that you can trust.

[Leibster]

I'm a little confused. I'm not conjecturing that empty chamber carry works--it's a fact. Why are some people so annoyed by that?

As for the two hand problem, it's rarely needed, but there are ways of chambering one handed--like racking the slide on your belt or shoe heel, using the sight as a contact point.

Like I said, I've certainly not got anything against loaded-chamber carry, I just find it curious that by stating empty-chamber carry is also valid, I illicit so many strong responses.

--Leibster

[Old Fuff]

M1911;

You’re right. There are disadvantages as well as advantages to carrying a pistol in Condition 3. The degree of advantage or disadvantage depends on the particular pistol, its user and the circumstances under which the pistol is being carried. I am not advocating Condition 3 carry, I’m simply pointing out that some people, as a matter of choice do it.

Individuals who are participating in this thread are doing an excellent job of illustrating the pros and cons on both sides of the issue – which is exactly what is wanted. Anyone who is reading the posts will find out a lot of things he or she should consider if they carry a pistol. I am delighted. Obviously this forum, The High Road is invaluable as a source of information, and your contributions (as well as mine) are one of the reasons.

[Leibster]

Couldn't agree more!!

--Leibster

[M1911]

Old Fluff: I think we're in violent agreement.

[Old Fuff]

Is that random violent agreement? (grinning).

[DeltaElite]

I never said that the Israeli method didn't work.
I just think it is impractical to have to add another motion to your draw in a stressfire situation.

As for objective data, it is faster to draw and shoot, than to draw, chamber and shoot. Adding in an extra motion can't possibly speed up the delivery of rounds onto target.
It is a viable technique, if you don't mind slowing down the delivery of your first round, usually the most important round in a gun fight.
I don't care for the technique, because I find it to be a hinderance to deploying my gun into action. Where I work, I draw my weapon several times daily, whether it is for a shooting, building clearance or another threat. It would be impractical to be drawing and clearing my gun several times daily.
It is more than a feeling I have about the technique, it is what works best for me.

I have no disrespect for the Israelis, they have proven themselves to be a superior fighting force on numerous occassions. I just disagree with the viability of their chosen carry method.

I am curious, do any other groups practice the empty chamber carry method? Or is it primarily an Israeli carry method.

[Weezer]

I agree that having a round in the chamber is faster. It's common sense. A lot of people always say "keep your finger off the trigger" and "get a good holster" and you'll be fine. Well 99.9% of those people have never been in a true life and death panic situation. Under extreeme stress, while digging under layers of clothes to get to your gun, and your eyes glued in shock to the threat at hand, everyones going to be able to keep their finger off the trigger while drawing? I highly doubt it. I've read stories about people having to use their guns in defense situations, actually two of them in this months "combat handguns" magazine. In both of the situations, the ccw holder had ample time to draw his weapon, and rack the slide if he needed to. Anyways, I think both methods can be very effective, it's all about your enviroment, and how comfortable you are in your carry method.

Thanks for all the replies! This seems to be a very informitive site.


PS heres a link to a very dramatic story from another gun board. I'm posting it because I was curious if you guys felt he'd had time to rack his slide.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126319

[triggertime]

An unloaded gun is about as useful as milk ducts on a bull. :p

"But...but...it only takes a second to rack a round into the chamber. Besides, its safer."

Yeah? Well, it only takes an average able bodied person 1.5 seconds to close 21ft. and jab a knife into your gut. How safe do you feel now?


Edited to reply to the comment:

"Under extreeme stress, while digging under layers of clothes to get to your gun, and your eyes glued in shock to the threat at hand, everyones going to be able to keep their finger off the trigger while drawing?" -- Weezer

First of all, if you are 'digging under layers of clothes to get to your gun' then you really haven't given your carry method enough thought, have you?

The old adage "Perfect practice makes perfect.' applies here. People who practice religiously should be able to draw from concealment and place two rounds into the a-zone of their target in two seconds or less. They should also be able to reholster without looking or accidentally shooting themselves during the process.

It really depends on how serious a person is about carrying a gun. Its a huge responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly.

If you do not practice, you should.

[AnklePocket]

I don't carry, never have, but when my FL permit arrives and I'm able to carry in PA I won't keep one in the chamber. I say do whatever you're comfortable with.
Personally, I train a lot and will be ready if the horror ever presents itself - well, it actually did twice. I know deep to my core that I'll have the presence of mind to rack a slide and end a deadly threat before it knows what happened. I just don't think that I'll feel comfortable with one in the pipe during all types of activities. Who knows - maybe time and experience will change my mind.

[Soap]

Speed aside, to fight sometimes you need your off hand or you need retention position. Condition Three makes neither possible.

[SteelyDan]

I think we need to keep this debate in perspective. Concealed carry is only a means to an end, namely preparedness, or the ability to respond to a threat. Imagine a "preparedness scale," where "100" is a Navy Seal on patrol and "0" is my 70-something mother at church. Moving from Condition Three to Condition One might move you up 2 or 3 points on the overall scale, but it also probably, in my opinion, increases the odds of a mistake. Other factors, such as situational awareness, physical condition, training, behavior, judgment, etc., will make a much, much bigger difference.

Now, I normally like to get every last percentage point on my side, but in the end we all have to decide what we're comfortable with and what tradeoffs we're willing to make. Heck, sometimes I even get my mail without putting on a flak jacket first. :)

[Thumper]

It might be relevant to point out that "Condition 3" carry is the preferred mode of carry in Israel, where the threat level is relatively high.

The Israelis (including civilians, police and military) have extensively proven this technique not on the range, but in battle. Sure preferences may vary, but to say condition 3 carry is always a bad idea is to deny the fact that it's been very, very effective for a pretty sizeable sample group.

In battle? Know how often sidearms are used in battle?

Leibster, Isrealis carry their primary weapon in Con1. Unless you're a master of concealment, your primary is a handgun.

*Con3 carry works? I promise you, if someone is sawing on you with a Kbar you'll wish you had a round chambered.*

Col. Cooper's color codes notwithstanding, the first you'll know of your attacker is when he's already on you.

If it makes you more comfortable, though...well, that's hard to argue with.

[Leibster]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It might be relevant to point out that "Condition 3" carry is the preferred mode of carry in Israel, where the threat level is relatively high.

The Israelis (including civilians, police and military) have extensively proven this technique not on the range, but in battle. Sure preferences may vary, but to say condition 3 carry is always a bad idea is to deny the fact that it's been very, very effective for a pretty sizeable sample group.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In battle? Know how often sidearms are used in battle?

Leibster, Isrealis carry their primary weapon in Con1. Unless you're a master of concealment, your primary is a handgun.

*Con3 carry works? I promise you, if someone is sawing on you with a Kbar you'll wish you had a round chambered.*

Col. Cooper's color codes notwithstanding, the first you'll know of your attacker is when he's already on you.

If it makes you more comfortable, though...well, that's hard to argue with.



Thumper,

By "battle" I meant any confrontation involving lethal force, be it by civilians, police or military.

It's remarkable to me that you think there is only one best way of doing things. Condition 3 does work. It's been proven in hundreds upon hundreds of actual encounters, and it's simply not possible to state categorically that it is inferior to Condition 1.

As for wishing I had a round chambered if someone's sawing on me with a KBar, maybe, maybe not. I do know a friend of mine who pushed a terrorist with a hatchet away from him, drew, chambered and fired and lived unharmed to tell about it.

--Leibster

[curt]

Condition 3 does work. It's been proven in hundreds upon hundreds of actual encounters, and it's simply not possible to state categorically that it is inferior to Condition 1.

Got any links or references? i'd be interested in the proof as i have a neighbor who carries in 3.

[DeltaElite]

Leibster,
You offer no data to back your claims, other than "the Israelis do it". Yet you addressed me, because I didn't like that carry method. :rolleyes:

I really don't care how the Israelis carry, or how you carry, if you even can carry living in Los Angeles.
I carry a gun professionally and it will always have a round chambered, because for me it is not a debate for entertainment, it is about my day to day survival.

Empty chamber is a bad idea, if you are not competent enough with a weapon to carry it with a round chambered, then you shouldn't be carrying a firearm.
It is a valid carry method for people who can't be trusted to carry with a round chambered. ;)

Oh, BTW. Most militarys consider the 9mm an adequate defensive round, but we all know better now don't we. ;)

[Leibster]

Okay, you asked for data, so below is a very small sampling. I’m sure I could find more, but my time is limited.

As far as your swipe at me not carrying, you’re right. Here in California, permits are scarce. But I lived in Israel for some years, and I HAVE carried in condition 3 in some pretty tense areas, like: the Gaza Strip, Ramallah, Nablus, and other West Bank cities, the Muslim Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, and lots of other interesting places. I’ve done this both in uniform and as a private citizen, and I’ve felt adequately protected.

Again, I’m not implying in any way that you change your carry method. If it works for you, stick with it. I’m simply baffled by your oversimplification of fighting. I’m sure you’d agree that fighting is a fairly complex topic, and just because you are confident that something works well for you, doesn’t mean that there aren’t other highly effective techniques that you choose not to employ. Your assertion that “Empty chamber is a bad idea, if you are not competent enough with a weapon to carry it with a round chambered, then you shouldn't be carrying a firearm.”, is simply narrow-minded.

http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/Archives/Digests/v02n100-199/v02n152.html
“ On April 3, 1984, three Arab terrorists trying to machine-gun a Jerusalem crowd killed only one victim before being shot down by Israeli civilians. The next day, the surviving terrorist said his group had planned to gun down other crowds of shoppers, leaving before police could arrive.”

“ On April 6, 1994, (quoting an Associated Press release from
Jerusalem): ``A Palestinian opened fire with a submachine gun at a bus
stop near the port of Ashdod today, killing one Israeli and wounding
four before being shot to death by bystanders, officials said....''

In both these cases, the civilians were carrying in Condition 3.

And I’m sure everyone remembers that shooting at LAX airport here in Los Angeles, where a gun-wielding terrorist was killed by an Israeli El Al security guard carrying in condition 3.

Interestingly, none other than Jeff Cooper admits that while it’s not his preferred mode of carry, condition 3 is surprisingly fast and effective:

http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/jeff/jeff5_13.html
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 5, No. 13 December, 1997

“ I recall that when I had something of the same problem in training honor guards who stood outside the doors of important people with their pistols in Condition 3, we wiped the slide on the way between "Clear" and "Point." It worked pretty well, and surprising speed could be achieved even from a full flap military holster."

Curiously, the most noted Cocked and Locked proponent is a fan of condition 3 in his shotguns…
http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/jeff/jeff3_14.html
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 3, No. 14 November, 1995

" The question arises as to the proper condition of readiness for the house shotgun. I do not feel entirely sure of my ground here, having only the skimpiest number of examples to draw upon, but for my own purposes I rack a shotgun in Condition 3, with the chamber empty and the hammer down. I put one round of No. 6 low-base in the magazine, and then stuff three rounds of high-base 00 buck forward in the buttcuff and three rounds of rifled slug at the rear. I feel that if I have to get out of bed and man that shotgun I will have time to rack the action once as soon as I seize the piece. One round of No. 6 low-base should suffice for any uninvited guest, and if the action threatens to continue it is the work of a moment to select either 00 or rifled slug as circumstances may warrant."


Just my two cents.

--Leibster

[DeltaElite]

Your data shows that someone successfully used a pistol that was in condition 3 initially. I never doubted it, but how many have suffered serious injury or death while attempting to make their weapon hot?
That doesn't show that it is a good idea, it is an inferior method.
I don't care who is a proponent of it, it is a bad idea.
I carry my shotgun hot too, Jeff Cooper has some good ideas, but that is not one of them. I am not a follower of the Col Cooper, so quoting him carries little weight with me.
I dare to think for myself after evaluating the methods available.

You seem to think that because I don't agree with you that I am not seeing the broad topic of fighting as well, as you obviously think you do. :rolleyes:
I have trained in many places and choose my methods based upon what is best for me. I have examined and discounted many methods of fighting with all kinds of weapons including firearms.
You have to eliminate the poor or inferior techniques and take what is the best.

I have trained in martial arts that are virtually useless in self defense, but are widely practiced worldwide. Yet many remained convinced that they are in a valid martial arts form.
I left them and found useful forms of fighting, since training in an inferior style, only makes you proficient in inferior techniques.

I am not willing to embrace inferior techniques, I acknowledge their existance and pity those who believe that they are viable means of self defense.
I learn from their shortcomings and advance my knowledge and ability from there.

I am not short sighted or hard headed, I simply discounted condition 3 as an inferior technique long ago and moved onto what is a superior technique, which is having my weapon loaded and ready to go.

[Leibster]

I never doubted it, but how many have suffered serious injury or death while attempting to make their weapon hot?

The same could be asked for condition one; how many have suffered serious injury or death due to AD from this mode of carry? The undeniable fact is, that even for most uniformed officers, they're unlikely to get into a gunfight over their careers. And the average civilian is fairly unlikely to get into a fistfight, let alone a gunfight.

Regardless, I think we have reached an impasse. I didn't realize that you not only "dare to think for yourself" and that you had all the answers to your specific tactical needs, but to everyone else's as well!

My mistake.

--Leibster

[DeltaElite]

You are forgiven for your mistake. :evil:

[curt]

Leibster,
Thanks for the link but i saw no place in there where it mentioned the condition that the firearms used were in. Are you basing your statement that they were in 3 on supposition or did i miss something?

[Logistar]

:uhoh: Whoa! Ease up a bit, guys! ;)

I think it gets down to what the individual feels comforable with. When I started, I just didn't feel comfortable with one in the pipe.

Later, I "saw the light" (actually, I just became more comfortable with carrying a firearm) and now carry with one in the pipe. (See my post above.)

I'd rather HAVE a gun (without one in the chamber) than no gun at all.

The one thing I think EVERYONE will agree on (watch this start a war!) is that however you carry, you should carry that way consistently and practice that method religiously. (and be damed good at it!)

It was lots of practice that convinced me that *I* don't need the added complexity of a safety. - especially when I have different weapons and differents types of safeties. Now that I have consistency (aim weapon, pull trigger) I am much faster. I do not worry about AD because I am confident that I will keep my finger out of the trigger guard now. (Wasn't so sure before.)

Take Care!

Logistar

[Leibster]

Curt,

You are correct, there was no direct reference to condition 3 carry. Until very recently (very late '90s at the earliest), there was virtually no-one in Israel espousing any other form of carry. And since the condition 3 carry method is what's universally taught across the entire security apparatus (Police, military, special forces, and anyone who carries a sidearm), it's INCREDIBLY unlikely for any shooting to have occurred where the defender was carrying one in the pipe. I do know that El Al security guards carry condition 3, so the incident last year in LAX was definitely condition 3.

--Leibster

[EJ]

Gonna' put my 2-cents in here--

I am not comfortable with a Glock-- Personal pref--

I prefer a 1911 cocked and locked or a Smith revolver--

When I was required to be armed -- I would often need a small "back pocket" gun--
I used an AMT 380 with an empty chamber-- It was the smallest I could be comfortable with and conceal readily -- but didn't trust the safety--
It all depends on the gun--

With a Glock-- you either believe inthw safety system and carry it fully loaded -- or you don't--;)

[Thumper]

Leibster,

So what condition are Isreali soldiers' primary weapons in in a combat zone?

[Leibster]

If we're talking rifles, it depends upon the threat level. Typically, condition 3. However, there are certain specific circumstances where condition 0 is the preferred mode (loaded chamber, safety off, rifle in hand). It's contextual to the perceived threat level and the nature of the mission.

--Leibster

[Thumper]

It's contextual to the perceived threat level and the nature of the mission.

Right...I defined it in the question (combat zone...i.e. attack imminent.)

So the logical question is, if you KNEW you were going to be attacked sometime that day, how would you carry?

Edited to say,before the argument continues, that I respect your right to carry in whatever condition you like.

[Blackhawk]

No.

ALL I want to have to do in an SD situation is set up the shot and pull the trigger, then repeat as necessary.

[Leibster]

I see your logic, Thumper, and it is sound. The question is, what is the likelihood of imminence of the attack versus the liklihood of an accidental discharge. When I did patrols in Lebanon, attacks were clearly more imminent than dining at the corner felafel stand. Accordingly, in Lebanon my M-16 was chambered with the safety off, along with an extra 8 30 round mags at the ready. When I chowing down on felafel, my concealed handgun was in condition three.

I once read that 50% of all American police that are shot, are shot by themselves or fellow officers. (I don't have the source handy, but I'm pretty sure it was a Handguns Magazine article from about 6 or 7 years ago.) A large portion of these are leg wounds when re-holstering a chambered weapon.

The feeling in Israel that brought about this carry method is that most people are better off carrying condition 3, for safety's sake. They feel that this is a good balance between readiness and safety. However, based upon actual performance since that tiem, there is an overall satisfaction level with the efficacy of this technique that causes it to continue to be the preferred mode of carry.

Hope that makes sense; I'm getting the flu and my head feels all mushy. :)

--Leibster

[Thumper]

If it works for you, that works for me...Condition 3 beats the heck out of nothing at all.

I'll still carry chambered, though. ;)

[DeltaElite]

I once read that 50% of all American police that are shot, are shot by themselves or fellow officers. (I don't have the source handy, but I'm pretty sure it was a Handguns Magazine article from about 6 or 7 years ago.) A large portion of these are leg wounds when re-holstering a chambered weapon.

I have no doubt that you read that in a gun rag, no doubt at all.

I have no data outside of my agency, but I can tell you that in a 1000+ officer dept, we have had two officers shot by friendly fire in my 12 years.
One shot his left ring finger off, at the distal joint, while handling his Beretta 21 off duty and the other took a ricochet off of the concrete, which got him in the left buttock. The ricochet occurred while training an academy class.
So our numbers are either way below the average, or the article was typical gun rag propoganda.
During the same time we have had a couple dozen cops shot, none mortally, so either some agencies are shooting themselves in droves, or the numbers are bogus.

I would love to see the study they used.

[DeltaElite]

Leibster,
We obviously disagree on carry methods.
No matter how you carry, patrolling in Lebanon is worthy of my respect and admiration. No wonder you feel safer in LA, you were in Lebanon.

I apologize for being so annoying earlier.

Now to get a good Falafel. :D

[MCNETT]

I always carry with one in the chamber. Period.

[Hardtarget]

I've always carried fully loaded...thats six when I carry a revolver or "one up" and a full mag in my semi auto. I hope the only rounds I ever fire are for fun at the range!
Mark.

[Leibster]

I apologize for being so annoying earlier.

DeltaElite,

Apology accepted. I also apologize if I was out of line.

2 Cops in 12 years is a damn good safety record for ADs. What department are you with?

--Leibster

[TIMC]

If you are going to carry unloaded just leave your gun at home and put a rock in your pocket!

[4thHorseman]

I was looking at Guns and Ammo back cover today and I noticed something that caught my eye. It was an advertisement for Para Ordanance. Big bold letters..."Para....Carry Safely!"

The second paragraph reads, " Para's patented LDA gives you a hammer down carry for safety with a sweet,smooth trigger. You don't have to cmpromise safety or accuracy with a heavy trigger."

The very last sentence reads, "The New Para CCW with its hammer down carry is sweet smooth and safe."

Twice more it mentions the word "safe."

Notice the word "safety" keeps coming up.

That to me implies single actions are not safe. It doesn't come right out and state single actions are unsafe, but sure does lean that direction. So I quess that is were some of the false ideas come from. It promotes the public's perception. I don't believe that to be true.

[Soap]

The reason why I carry Condition One is because my most likely encounter here is one that is at extremely close range. As such, I don't want to have to rack the slide because that would prevent me from going into a proper retention position. Also, if you are bearhugged/tackled/being bitten by a dog/etc. you cannot get your gun into action unless you rack it on your belt or leg. If it works for you, that's fine. But for me, I believe that most dangers come at close range and extremely quickly. Condition Three carry provides no advantages and a host of disadvantages.

[Leibster]

Actually, there are two marked advantages to condition 3 carry. The first is increased safety from ADs. With condition 3, they are almost impossible to have. The second is increased safety from a gun-grab. In the event your gun is snatched away, you'll likely have some small window of time before your attacker realizes he needs to rack the slide.

Everything has it's pluses and minuses. I agree you should do what you feel comfortable with, as long as safe guidelines are followed.

--Leibster

[Soap]

I would wholeheartly agree that people should carry however they feel comfortable. But its always nice to have a civil debate on certain techniques, gear, etc.

The first is increased safety from ADs.

Only if one can't obey the Four Rules. And if one can't, maybe they should rethink carrying a gun.

The second is increased safety from a gun-grab.

If you do proper retention techniques, a gun grab is extremely difficult. And proper retention techniques cannot be done with a gun in Condition Three. So you're basically creating an "advantage" out of a disadvantage.

[DeltaElite]

Nah, Leibster you didn't offend, I was the butt head.

I sent you a PM also. :D

[Leibster]

DeltaElite,

You have a PM. Nice chatting with you. :)

--Leibster

[HadEmAll]

No way Jose. Stuff can happen too fast and you might not have the luxury of two hands to get Ol' Betsy functional.

[stans]

I think carrying a defensive firearm with an empty chamber is kind of like going bear hunting with a pocket knife. Sure, you might be successful, but I am going wager heavily on the bear winning. Also, never bring a knife to a gunfight, always bring the biggest gun you can handle, anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice, well armed friends are always a plus.

[Leibster]

I think those unfamiliar with a proper condition 3 carry technique are unaware as to how fast into action it is.

I'm not familiar with how anyone else would do it, but with the Israeli system, there is room to keep a decent weapon retention position, and it can be done by someone well-trained (draw, cock, fire, scoring hit at 7 meters) in under one second. For someone who is slow and trains less consistently, this time is significantly higher; up around 1.5 -2.0 seconds. I believe this is on par with condition 1 draw times.

The way we do it in Israel, the cocking motion actually causes the handgun to be seated properly in the hand, forcing a proper combat grip at the time of firing. Further, since racking the slide is a gross motor skill, both experience and physiology bear out that one's ability to perform this action under stress is enhanced, not diminished. (We get better at performing gross motor funcitons under stress, while fine and complex motor skills become more difficult. This is physiological fact.)

Don't knock it till you've seen it.

--Leibster

[Smiley]

I didn't carry with a round in the chamber when I was just starting out for the first month or so. I did train on pulling the slide while presenting the firearms. I have started carring with a round in the chamber after I was set with a good holster and a firearm I was well familiar with.

[Soap]

but with the Israeli system, there is room to keep a decent weapon retention position

Please describe.

[Leibster]

The weapon is cocked immediately against your body at the midline. In this position, the weapon is immediately fireable should that be warranted. If not, the weapon can go back to "ready", which, in the Israeli system, is the same as is generally called "retention" position by American practitioners. That is to say, pointed forward, held back just in front of the strong side hip. Alternately, the weapon can continue on its natural line toward full extension, and begin engaging targets.

--Leibster

[Soap]

Thanks for the reply Leibster. But where does your off hand go immediately after racking the slide if the weapon is so close to your body?

[TDDude]

I agree with Thumper. Your (slide racking) hand may be engaged fending off a knife or puch or it may even just be plain injured by the time you realize you need to draw and fire. Having a round chambered is the way to go. If you don't feel comfortable that way, change guns or practice more until it is comfortable and natural. Furthermore, practice with both hands, right and left. My shooting with my left hand caused me to realize that my right eye needed correction. Shooting left handed (weak hand) gave me much tighter shot groups. I wan't as fast and took longer with the muzzle flip but once I had lined up and fired, the holes were all right there. Regardless, it seems that the KISS principle applies here and why put in an extra step when it's not needed.

$.02 worth.

[Leibster]

Thanks for the reply Leibster. But where does your off hand go immediately after racking the slide if the weapon is so close to your body?

Daniel Flory,

I don't know how everyone does it, but in Israel, the support hand stays stationary and near the body while gripping the slide, while the gun hand pushes it's way through the range of movement, chambering the round. At this point, the shooter has his off hand free to join in a 2 handed grip, ward off evil, or whatever else may need doing. The off hand stays at the midline while this assessment is made.

Bear in mind that the time frame here is infinitessimal.

--Leibster

[45auto]

Interesting discussion,

Obviously, condition 3 works so no issue here. Unfortunately, Israel has a lot of "real world" practice to dispute it's techniques.
What type of handguns are common or used by the army and citizens?

I have always thought the "double action" type guns, particulary the ones with a manuel safety, were designed to eliminate the need to carry empty.
Did the Israel method develop when single action guns were used and continue regardless of the type of handgun, since it worked, or is it simply fast enough and the ultimate in safety?

Does anyone know how our troops carry the model 92? I know the 1911 was condition 3 way back!

Thanks

[Handy]

The Marines on guard duty in the middle east carry condition 2. This is one of the main advantages in getting a new service pistol.

What works in Israel may not work here. We have almost no military/terrorist type problem (yet) and they do not have a lot of crime related violence. Both are unexpected, but violent crime tends to happen at a much shorter range. I can't imagine trying to load a weapon while fending off a knife or another gun.

The Hi-Power has always been big in Israel. If there is discomfort with cocked and locked or manual decocking, cond 3 becomes the only viable option for that firearm.

My question about Israel would be about the Jericho pistol. If this fine weapon is actually common, isn't the small amount of exposed slide to grab a hinderance?

[Soap]

Leibster-

Okay that answers my question perfectly. So basically the diffence in your style of retention postition and mine would be that your gun is about 8-12" more extended outward and you only have one hand on the gun. To each his own...but I like hearing about how other people do it.

[sw442642]

To return to the original question - this has been bitterly debated over and over again on Glocktalk.

I carry an unloaded flintlock pistol that I load and prime while under attack. This is very safe except for when it rains.

[curt]

I carry an unloaded flintlock pistol that I load and prime while under attack. This is very safe except for when it rains.

I find that much too risky. I carry an 80% 1911 frame and a set of files. When provoked the flurry of metal shavings that i send flying is enough to cause most men to give pause.

Now if i can just find the proper way to carry my Dillon 650 concealed i can eliminate the carrying of those dangerous loaded rounds.

:D

[Gary A]

Leibster - I have seen illustrations of the Israeli method in the past but can't find any right now. Does the off-hand grasp the slide in an overhand fashion with the fingers over the top of the slide and the thumb pointing toward the rear, or in a thumb and forefinger fashion with the fingers below and the thumb on top of the pistol pointing toward the muzzle? Or is it dependent only on what works best for the user? I would guess the second method is preferred. Can you clarify?

[gtd]

Unless you're a soldier or a cop under orders (for your own safety, by the way), do what makes sense in your particular situation at the time. In my case,

- Sometimes I carry, sometimes I don't.
- Sometimes chamber is empty, sometimes not.

I don't want to be like the deer hunters who shoot Girl Scouts or their own partners or children by mistake. If that means I'm sometimes at a disadvantage, so be it. Most of the time, if I carry with an empty chamber, I'm still at a significant advantage, and everyone, including me, is safe.

[91101]

Anyone carry with an empty chamber?

Yes... and I let the air out of my tires before I drive my car down the road too... :rolleyes: :D

[Leibster]

Gary A,

in a thumb and forefinger fashion with the fingers below and the thumb on top of the pistol pointing toward the muzzle?

You are correct. The gun is rotated about 90 degrees to facilitate racking the slide, then turned back upright as it ranges through the cocking motion.

Hard to explain without pictures, but I hope you get the idea.

--Leibster

[Admiral Thrawn]

Yes... reduced risk of an AD (or ND), which I absolutely could not afford to happen...

Here in Australia, laws relating to guns are draconian, and there is no such thing as a CCW permit or even lawfully owning a firearm for "self-defence." You cannot buy a firearm without already being a member of a shooting club, and must attend a certain number of shooting events to keep your license; Not to mention that it takes about 4 months to get your license in the first place.

So obviously, if I were to carry, I would be doing it illegally, and an AD/ND while carrying illegally would not be a good combination.

Lastly, if I did need to use my firearm(s) in self-defence, I would just rack the slide and put it to use... If I didn't have time to do this, well that's too bad.

:banghead: :cuss: :fire:

[cool45auto]

No. One in the chamber, safety off.

[outfieldjack]

I'm not that good at multi-tasking....... Aim and pull the trigger works for me.

[DrDremel]

Carry with a round in the chamber is the only logical approach. The handgun is used at close distances, distances where ½ a second can make a difference. Do you always have your hands free? Do doors always open on their own? Does your house open without keys? Do you never carry anything in your hands? Of coarse not. You do not always have the luxury of having both hands free. As for the suggestion of using one handed slide racking techniques, they are very slow compared to two handed racking and it takes much more dexterity. Those techniques are meant for situations where your off hand is disabled. To rely on those techniques is to handicap yourself. The Israelis use handguns as secondary weapons. Even if they are only armed with a handgun, they are doing military jobs, their main focus is aggressors, not grocery shopping, holding your kids, hand, etc. Military operations are not the same as civilian situations. Military forces are armed and ready to fight. They usually know they may be attacked and by whom. They may not know which person is the enemy but they have their primary weapon ready, loaded and safety on. As for Col. Cooper’s comment about the shotgun, that is for storage. It is stored with an empty chamber. As soon as it is picked up, it is racked. It is a two handed weapon. Your hand will already be on the weapon. No one advocates carrying a shotgun with an empty chamber. The israelis also carry their M16s. You will not hear about them carrying with an empty chamber. The comment about having the chamber empty so that if an attacker grabs your gun you will have time to react before he racks the slide, you are giving an attacker that does not grab your gun the time to attack before you can. Inside of 21 feet, an attacker can close on you faster than a trained professional can draw and fire with a loaded handgun in condition 1. Why add to that with any extra time. Look at police departments, how many are told to carry on an empty chamber? They must react to an attacker at close range when surprised. Secret Service would be a close comparison as well. They may go their whole carreer without needing to fend off an attacker, yet they have their handguns with a round in the pipe because they will have little time to react and every .1 seconds can make a difference. Maybe we should keep fire extinguishers in safes. That way no one can accidentally bump them off the wall. Maybe we should not wear seatbelts because we can buckle them if we see an accident coming.

[Leibster]

The Israelis use handguns as secondary weapons. Even if they are only armed with a handgun, they are doing military jobs, their main focus is aggressors, not grocery shopping, holding your kids, hand, etc.

DrDremel,

I don't know on what you're basing this, but I can tell you that it's not entirely accurate. It is true that the Israeli MILITARY uses handguns as secondary weapons, as does every military. but about 10% of the CIVILIAN population is licensed and armed, with handguns.

This would include, for example, the civilians at a cafe a while back who (from condition 3) stopped 3 AK-wielding terrorists from shooting more innocent civilians, and the civilian CCW holder who shot dead (from condition 3) a suicide bomber in a grocery store last year, just meters from my father-in-law.

Grocery shopping, holding their kids, etc. IS precisely the focus of the civilian sector. Israel is not a military force; it is a country similar to any other with a (proportionately) large army, due to the hostil neighborhood in which it finds itself.

In any event, handguns are relatively uncommon in the Israeli military, and are only issued to a select few units and used only when using an assault rifle or SMG is not an option. Just like here, the handgun is primarily a defensive weapon, not an offensive one.

--Leibster

[Handy]

And just to throw in, shotguns in the military ARE carried chamber empty because the pump is easier to work under stress than the safety lever. The opposite is true of handguns.

[Leibster]

Why is the slide harder to operate than the safety lever? Operating the slide is a gross motor skill. The safety lever is a complex motor skill. In cases of extreme stress, gross motor skills are easier to perform.

--Leibster

[Handy]

Um, because one takes two hands and the other one hand?

Or you could avoid both and carry a chambered DA pistol.

[arizona]

The only pistol I carry with an empty chamber is my Colt 45 SAA.

[Leibster]

Um, because one takes two hands and the other one hand?

Handy,

It might take two hands to operate the slide, but it's not harder to operate than a safety lever. I agree DA is an option. So is cocked and locked. They both work, and work well. My only point when I got into this discussion is that so does condition 3! :)

--Leibster

[Handy]

Leibster,

It isn't hard to operate anything on any halfway decent auto. The slide is meant to pulled, the mag released, the safety removed.

Cond. 3 is obviously workable, since we are able to get bullets in the chamber. And it is much faster than loading an empty gun. But the two hand requirement is a severe limitation on a defensive arm. Notice that no one carries two handed folding knives any more.


So, do you Israelis HAVE to carry that way by law; no choice? Or do you all just agree with each other better than us Yanks?

[Leibster]

Handy,

There's no law (to my knowledge) about carrying condition 3 outside the military and police. But since former combat soldiers and police officers tend to be the instructors for the civilian sector, it's become the overwhelming method of carry.

I'm told that in the last few years that there is more loaded chamber carry going on. Probably new immigrants are getting into instructing.

I tend to agree that if the person is extremely responsible and careful, and follows the 4 safety rules, that chamber loaded is safe and has certain advantages over condition 3. (But I still almost always carry in condition 3) There are those, however, who lack the presence of mind to do so safely, and the results sometimes are disastrous.

From my limited reading, research and experience, however, I understand condition 3 carry is certainly a good choice for a whole group i.e. military or police units, who have people of varying levels of competence in them.

--Leibster

[Charles S]

No.

Wait sometimes when, no not then either.

I am not comfortable with Glocks, they are great guns just not for me.

I always have one in the chamber on a carry gun.:D

Charles

[Al Thompson]

Leibster, IMHO, the best idea would be to bring the competency level up for the entire group. Condition 3 carry is simply a bad carry over from the old days. No firearm I'm aware of is unsafe carryed with a round in the chamber. As to difficulty of training, thousands of IDPA/IPSC shooters (most self schooled) demonstrate their abilities weekly or monthly.

[Gary A]

Leibster - thanks for clarifying that for me. That's the way I remembered reading about it. Did a little practicing and decided there isn't a whole lot to argue about. It works pretty well. Are there circumstances where it would be a serious drawback? I'm sure there are, just like there are circumstances where the revolver toter too late wishes he had more rounds or some other equally disastrous scenario that can happen no matter what the plan. In the final analysis everyone has to decide for him/her self what method is best for their particular circumstances, comfort level, and skills. It would seem, however, that if one decided to go condition three, they might want to use that method exclusively and practice a lot. Although it would be better to rack the slide on a loaded chamber and drop a round on the ground than to pull the da trigger on an empty chamber. In other words, if one uses the "Israeli" method, they probably should seriously commit to it and hone that muscle memory to a fine edge. I think it would work in all but the rarest situations for most people. Everything is a trade-off. Just mo.

[Leibster]

Al Thompson,

It could be you're right--maybe it is simply a carryover from the old days. But there is widespread satisfaction with the method, mostly because it continues to prove itself effective.

Gary A,
Doubtless there are situations where this method wouldn't work--as there are with any method. I personally am not familiar with any, and I AM familiar with succes stories using this method, so I'm drawing conclusions based on my experience and training.

--Leibster

[Fel]

Yes.

Unsafe to carry my Colt SAA with a live round under the hammer.

[oogee]

Leibster "kol hakavod" ëì äëáåã

Well...
As an Israeli I did my 4 years in the army, my handgun training was CON-3 carry. CON-3 and the draw form you all know as the "Israeli draw" is now an instinct. When ever i draw a pistol my left hand automatically goes to pull the slide, its unintentional purly automatic reaction.

For those who have never seen how "the draw" is really done it's hard to understand how fast you can get a bullet out of a gun, it's basically click-click-boom -> first click is the slide clicking upon retraction the second click is the slide going back and boom...
how long does it take the slide to cycle??? :banghead:

They way I see it the "one in the pipe" comes from the era of revolvers, people could not adjust to semi autos without a chambered bullet. :confused:

there are special conditions that a weapon is not carried in CON-3, mostly things like: the Litani and Salouki area in southern lebanon, refugee camps in Gaza and Jenin. in places like these the primary in CON-0 (the pistol CON-3).

finally there is no problem to use a JERICHO (baby eagle) in CON-3, my personal pistol is a PCR (in the army I had a P228)

[Leibster]

Oogee,

Na'im M'od! Nice to have someone finally agree with me on this post for a change!! It's also nice to find someone else who knows without doubt that this is a workable system.

Judging by your birthday, you're recently out of the army. So I assume that they're still doing things the same way. (I'm a "pazamnik--I went in in Aug. '90).

--Leibster

[zorba]

If you are not comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, change guns. I carry Glocks, Kahr's & SIG's with a round chambered all the time. A good holster that covers the trigger guard and keeping your finger off the trigger are mandatory. If I need to use my weapon, all I want to have to do is pull the trigger.

[DrDremel]

It is only a feasible method if you are empty handed and in a military type role. In a civilian role where it is not your primary focus you will not always have two hands to rack the slide. Also the Israelis are the only ones teaching this. And that is only the military. Military and civilian carry of a handgun are two very different roles. The handgun is a backup weapon in the military. The handgun in a civilian role is the primary weapon. Primary weapons are always carried loaded with the safety on.

[Leibster]

DrDremel,

I don't think you read my last response to you. In Israel, this is NOT a military-only carry style. This is the overwhelmingly predominant carry method among military, civilian and police, and it's been used effectively by all sectors.

--Leibster

[oogee]

Well...

think about this, if you practice a method of carry for a few years and it beacomes an instinct why "overload" your head in time of crisis?

if you trained in CON-3 carry and i mean realy trained everything else seems plain wrong.

my mother for example carrys a PPK deckocked (chambered).


VETISHAMROO LENAFSHOTECHEM - be carefull

[Jedi_7.62]

NO!!! I carry a gun not an expensive hammer!

BE PREPARED!!!

[charleym3]

I used to carry a glock. If I had it in my pocket, I had an empty chamber. If it was in a holster, I had one in the pipe. Now I carry a revolver.

[Rogelio]

Hello:

I am kind of a new user here, and I am really gratefull that when I had doubts in my first posts, people who knew a lot were there to help me.

I have worked as a bodyguard for 10 years,I have taken a military course in Israeli Techniques "Superiority by rapid action" (SAR for its spanish initials), and I have found out that some of the information in this thread is not completely correct. As you people say, just my 02 cents worth

First off, when carrying the israeli way yo do not chamber with both hands, you just do it with your strong hand. How? You carry unholstered in your lower back, when pulling the gun out you catch the edge of your belt with the rear sights of your glock and then continue the downward movement till the gun is loaded. With practice this is the easiest carry method, and I can load a bullet and shoot faster than you can open your holster and pop me a round... (US says it is mandatory to use retention on holsters) .

Someone said that it would be hard to load a bullet while pushing away a loved one.....wrong again...just use your weak hand to grab your loved one by its pants (grab the part that is right in line with their spine), and at the same time pull down and to your back doing a circular movement. At the same time, cock the gun as described above.This WILL put your loved one behind you and leave you with a a condition 1 gun in just one movement.

No matter what method you choose to carry, just practice it! Practice makes perfect, and perfect stays alive!!

Rogelio

[Skunkabilly]

I bet Microbalrog does :neener: :neener: :neener:

[Island Beretta]

Guys,

I am a bit late to the party, hope you will let me in..

As Al Thompson said con-3 might be a carry over from the ole' days when we did not have firing pin blocks and intercept notch. I myself have taken out my Beretta (chambered) only to see the hammer half-cocked from the slide apparently riding up. I am safe (I think) because the hammer will be caught in the intercept notch plus the firing pin block. Nevertheless, even though I know this, it always makes me a bit uncomfortable as the prob. for an AD has increased. In fact I have always wondered if the original powerful Beretta mainspring could cause the hammer to hit the firing pin hard enough so as to break the firing pin block. I now carry a reduced power mainspring so not as concerned now.

The Israelis have mastered the art of con-3 carry and they can, in addition to the normal 2-hand rack, do one-handed racks, rack on the belt, rack on the hoster, rack on the boots, rack on the table etc. The CZ-100 is built with a racking bar on the top of the slide, and this was intended to make it more attractive to the Israelis and other Eastern countries.

Here in our island, a number of police fatalities have arisen because of failure to fire weapon when attacked. In most cases this seems to be due to a failure to release the safety on their C&L Browning HP in time. This is not surprising given the deterioation of complex motor skills in a stress situation. The police have been given training in con-3 carry with a slide rack and many report that this is faster for them. They reserve the option to choose whichever one they like. I am almost certain however that the average police in con-3 will be beaten by someone of comparable ability with a DA/DAO or SAS (Glock) pistol with a round chambered.

[Partisan Ranger]

One question - I've seen people refer to something called a 'slamfire,' which I understand to mean the round fires when you chamber it. Is that correct?

If so, shouldn't you only chamber a round outside pointed at the ground?

I can handle carrying a cocked and locked Glock (says Dr. Seuss:D ), but I wonder about that .40 round going off when I rack the gun in the morning.:confused:

[curt]

Good point PR. I too carry glocks but no matter what i'm chambering i'm always aware that there is potential for the round going off. broken firing pins or crap in the FP channel will do it.

[Henry Bowman]

PR - A Glock is never locked and, until the trigger is pulled, is only half cocked.