[Drjones]

...says my "professor."

Check out this excerpt from this latest reading we have to do:
(DISCLAIMER: HAVE ANTACID NEARBY!!!!)

"Regardless of the angle from which you view the matter, the liberation of Native North America, liberation of the land first and foremost, is the dey to fundamental and positive social changes of many other sorts.....<snip> Put another way, this would mean, "U.S. Out of Indian Country." Inevitably, the logic leads to what we've all been so desperately seeking: The United States - at least as we've come to know it - out of North America altogether. From there, it can be permanently banished from the planet. In its stead, surely we can join hands to creat something new and infinitely better. That's our vision of "impossible realism." Isn't it time we all went to work on attaining it?"

:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :fire: :fire:

Wow. I just saw that "US out of N.A." part for the first time as I typed this.

Sick.

Anyhow, I was thinking an interesting thing to suggest to my prof. when this comes up in class is this:

"Well, if you want to give the indians back land that was "wrongfully" taken from them, why don't we ship all blacks back to Africa too? They were brought here against their will!"

(NOT intended to offend anyone, 'cept maybe my prof!!! :evil: )

Seriously, anyone have any links or info about how we "stole" the land from the indians?

Comments, opinions?

I want to know more about this subject, so any info you could point me to would be great.

Thanks
DrtryingtokeepmyfooddownJones

[TheLastBoyScout]

Doc... we DID steal this land from the Native Americans. The real question is should we feel bad about it/do anything about it.
:evil: I don't think so:neener:

[Drjones]

The way I see it is this:

European settlers came here.

They had superior weapons and knowledge. (Like giving them blankets laced with smallpox. You've got to admit that was pretty smart for way back then.)

They Europeans wanted the land here, so we took it.

So what?

What I really want are other incidents of people taking land from other people throughout history.

I *KNOW* its happened......right?

Regardless, I still say if he thinks we should do that, then he should also want to ship blacks back to Africa, since they were brought here against their will.

:neener:

[Pendragon]

They found it.

We took it.

We still own it.

If they want it, they should take it back.

Posession being 9/10th and all...


These are ridiculous liberal fantasies designed to kill your brain cells. Ask him if any Native Americans ever took land from other tribes? Of course libs like to say "Native Americans did not recognize the concept of land ownership".

Uh, so how did we take it if they did not believe they owned it?

Also - if tribes evey took other tribes land or resources, then they can hardly protest when we do the same.

Throughout history, one culture has conquered another and taken their land, their resources, their women, etc.

We are all humans. There were wrongs that happened in the past, some recorded, some not. Some people were wronged, some were enriched. This is the story of man.

If he wants to correct the mistakes of history, tell him it is disingenuous to stop with North America. Tell him that every theft, every enslavement and every occupation in history should be investigated and set right.

These people are like little children wishing for a swiming pool full of chocolate milk. It's a nice thought, but when you think about making it happen, you realize that its unworkable.

The other thing about this kind of thinking is that it tries to assign fault, motive and victim status to cultures, not individuals.

Cultures do not have rights, only individuals have rights. Reduce the discussion to individuals.

Sweet baby Jesu this man is a waste of skin.

[Sodbuster]

I was wondering why the quotation marks around "their" and "wrongfully." Knowledgeable reading of history indicates no need for qualifications. Paha Sapa belongs to the Lakota.

[DeltaElite]

The vanquished need to get over it already. ;)

I will take my land in the Rocky Mountains or on the beach near San Diego. I have been wronged. :neener:

[TheLastBoyScout]

Doc: They had it, we wanted it, we had better weapons, we weakened them with disease and took it. Taking something you want because the owners can't stop you is thievery . But I'm still unrepentant about what the Europeans did.

[Pendragon]

Someday, some nation may rise up and take this land from us.

What happens happens, there is no cosmic court to appeal to. If you want to keep your land, defend it. If you want to keep your life, defend it.

I mean - please, it's not like he believe in God or anything, how is any of this "wrong" ;)

[Pendragon]

Of course it is thievery.

But the statute of limitations has long since run out...

The only redress is force.

[El Tejon]

None around here to reclaim it. We shot them all.:)

Tell your professor, "Tippecanoe and Tyler too!"

[Chris Rhines]

Most of the land your prof is bleating about was unowned. You cannot claim to own land unless you have mixed your value with it. First rule of homesteading.

As for the land that the Amerinds did own, well, yes, it was a travesty. But repeating the same actions won't make it right.

In a strictly practical/cynical sense, the US government owns every square inch of land inside the borders anyhow...

- Chris

[Sodbuster]

Someday, some nation may rise up and take this land from us.
Like Aztlan?

First rule of homesteading
You sound like a whiteman (as I am). Does no one on this forum know what sacred ground is?

[AZTOY]

Someday, some nation may rise up and take this land from us.

Like Mexio is trying:fire:

[Preacherman]

Bear in mind, too, that the Native American tribes fought one another almost constantly for several centuries before White settlers came along, and took one anothers' land, too. Sure, some of the tribes lived in peace with one another, but many others did not. There are many histories pointing out how this tribe attacked that tribe, and took their land, or burned their crops, or whatever. What the White settlers did to the tribes was, of course, indefensible in the light of modern civilization's ideas on the subject: but at the same time, the same condemnation should be applied to what the tribes did to one another!

[Marko Kloos]

Doc... we DID steal this land from the Native Americans.

I didn't have a hand in it, and I'm pretty sure nobody on this board did, either.

Isn't it funny how these warriors against racism and defenders of minorties willingly subscribe to the "inherited race guilt" philosophy common to all racist ideologies?

[Chris Rhines]

You sound like a whiteman (as I am). Were I any whiter, you could read the newspaper through me.

Does no one on this forum know what sacred ground is? Thought I did. For the life of me, though, I can't see how it is relevant. More explanation?

- Chris

[Tamara]

...and the Normans can give their land back to the Angles and Saxons and Jutes who can give it back to the Romano-Britons who can give it back to the Celts who can give it back to the prior neolithic inhabitants who can... Did you know Dublin and Moscow were founded by Vikings? That Cleopatra was Greek? That the Dorian Greeks of the Classical Age were actually a bunch of uncouth savages who moved in and burned Achaean cities to the ground? That Alex the Great was actually a Macedonian bumpkin who took over Greece because it had swell beaches and was between him and the rest of the conquerable world? That Spain was stolen from Vandals (who were Arian Christians) by Moors, from Moors by Catholic Christians, from Celts by Carthaginians (who were really just exported Philistines), from Carthaginians by Romans, from Romans by Vandals, and from neolithic farmers by Celts? That the Persians under Cyrus pretty much hijacked the Assyrian empire whole?

Can someone name me a piece of land that hasn't been stolen by main force at least once?

[Destructo6]

Ask him if all the Turks should be removed from Turkey and sent back to the steppes from where they came.

Or yank all the Berbers out of Southern Spain and send them back to Africa.

Or, kick the Iroquios out of New England since they'd just conquered the place before the Euros arrived.

Or...the list is endless.

[Kaylee]

Serves 'em right, for tresspassing on our land before we got to it... :p



In all seriousness though... I'd go find the representative of the local Indian nation/reservation, get the contact info, and take it to the professor. Invite him publically IN CLASS to sign the title to his house over to 'em ... with names, addresses and all in place. If you're really ambitious, maybe contact someone at a realtor's office to get some dummy paperwork. :D


In short -- "put up or shut up."

Nothing like putting your money where your mouth is.


-K

[Tamara]

...that Galatia in Turkey is called that because of the Gauls who kind of moved in and killed the people who were already living there, only to be killed later themselves by Turks?

[The Reaper]

The bottom line comes to this. Which map do we use?

Tamara is right, find some land that hasn't been taken in conquest or otherwise.

Oh and do we put it back the way we found it. You know demolish all the infrastructure, move all the people back to the country of their ancestors?:neener:

Oh and the joining of hands to create blah blah blah...
They just don't get it. I want everyone to join hands and believe they've created utopia, because it will be so much easier to subjugate them.:D

Sheesh, does your prof think or just dig up ludicrous crap to torture you? I know he does the latter. Why? Because he can.:banghead:

[Porter Rockwell]

Doc,
swing by the anthropology lab and ask about the Kennewick Man and related sources of white folks here before the orientals/indians

[Powderman]

Those who know me know that the LAST thing that I EVER talk about is race, or race relations. It is my firm belief that indeed ALL men (and women) are created equal.

That being said, I will say this.

My board name is Powderman. A lot of you have communicated with me on TFL, the 1911 forum, and here.

My real name is Eagle Charles Tovar Jr. I designate myself as a junior because my first and middle name is a simple reversal of my father's name, Charles Eagle. He was a veteran of WWII, a master chef, and a good man to know.

He was also full-blood Cherokee.

I have gathered enough about most of the people here to know that you are all fine folks, the type I could sit and talk to. The type to go camping with, to tell tall tales over flame broiled steaks, freshly carved from the quarters of the deer just taken this afternoon. You are the type of folks who will do to ride the river with, who I would gladly invite into my home without reservation.

Please, good people, before you pass judgement on us--before you say such things as have been said in this post--things which sound cruel, heartless and atavistic, I plead with you all--do a bit of research.

There have been many heartbreaking cases of atrocities in history. The Black man, brought over in slaver's chains. The Asians, forced into servitude, notably in the West. The Irish and English immigrants, who immigrated in search of a better land--and found backbreaking labor, harsh conditions and death at the hands of wealthy taskmasters.

But none in our history compare to the attempted genocide of the American Indian.

From a continent with an estimated 30 million inhabitants, to an estimated nationwide population of 300,000 registered tribal members.

Read about President Andrew Jackson, and "Manifest Destiny".

See the movie, "The Last of His Tribe", a factual story about Ishii, a Pacific Northwest Indian who was the only remaining member of his tribe. The rest has been hunted and killed by hunters--mostly for sport.

Read about the Indian Schools, where native children were taken--forcibly--from the arms of their parents, dipped in caustic solutions as a "sheep dip", and forced to learn English. Forbidden to speak their native tongues under penalties of beating and outright torture.

Know that the first duties of the Tribal Police, as run by the Bureau of Indian Affairs was to forcibly remove these children from their parents.

Finally, as distasteful as it is, research the writings of Der Fuhrer--Adolf Hitler. He said, during his research of the "Jewish Problem" that to see a good example of how to deal with the problem, one needed to look to the treatment of "the indigenous peoples of the American continent by the Aryan citizens of that nation".

No, "giving" back the country is NOT the answer. And, most Indians know that this Country IS our Country. Witness the patriotism and service of Native Americans during WWII, Korea and Vietnam.

We do NOT want to take anything. We just want to live as fellow citizens of this great Nation. As a great American, Dr. Martin Luther King said, we want to be judged not by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character.

Thanks for listening.

Yours,

Eagle C. Tovar Jr.

[Blackhawk]

Drjones,

Ask him if he understands the SIFAS Principle. If he hasn't heard of it, ask him to explain the possession of the Falkland Islands as the British call them or Las Malvinas as the Argentinians call them.

Then ask him to explain California and Texas.

You can have a ball hectoring him about all that, but the bottom line is that whoever has sufficient force can take and possess anything they want. If they can keep it for some indeterminate time, they're acknowledged as the owners of same.

BTW, SIFAS is an acronym for "Stole It Fair And Square."

[Blackhawk]

Powderman,

A seminal book for me on the subject was "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee."

[DeltaElite]

Powderman,
I apologize for being inflammatory in my statements.

I consider us all equals. I believe in only one race, the Human Race. There are alot of ethnicities and cultural differences, but only one race, IMHO.
I work daily with cops and citizens of several different ethnicities and cultural backgrounds, as I am sure you do.

My statements were not directed towards you as an individual, they were statements in generalities and based upon my frustration of hearing how certain groups should be receive compensation for past wrongs.
I am sorry for how many peoples were treated by my ancestors, but I am no more liable for their actions than Europeans are for their treatment of my ancestors before they left Europe over 100 years ago.

Anyway, I do believe we are all equals, none better or worse than the other.

Best wishes,
Delta

[MeekandMild]

Drjones, I am trying not to be critical of other people's life decisions, but I really don't think you should allow crazy people to decide the rules about your education/career/destiny. This dude sounds like he is a wannabee Indian, projecting all sorts of his fantasies onto his "red brothers". His indignation sounds pretty much a put-on.


Some information about fake Indians:

The famous Creek war chief Red Eagle aka William Weatherford (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/red_eagle.htm) is one good example of a man who was 7/8 European but who assumed an Indian personna. Many of the "white" settlers he killed were his cousins and his in-laws. Likewise
Chief Sequoya (http://www.sequoia.k12.az.us/details/sequoya.html) the distinguished linguist was just as much Scot as Cherokee.

Many "whites" such as
Sam Houston (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/HH/fho73.html) spend significant portions of their lives among the Indians and had Indian names and personnas.

Through the years Indian ancestry has gotten to be more like European patents of nobility than any meaningful geneology as evidenced by this Cherokee tribal membership (http://www.rootsweb.com/~cherokee/n_a_resea.html) page.

To make matter more complex there are many Tri-Racial Communities (http://hometown.aol.com/angelaw859/tri_racials.html) scattered throughout the US, only a few of which are recognized by they government. Of course there are other
fake tribes (http://www.comanchelodge.com/fake-cherokee.html) by the double handfull.

[Preacherman]

Powderman, I hear you, and I can perhaps understand your position better than most, having lived and worked through 18 years of civil war in South Africa to remove the atrocity of apartheid and restore justice. You are absolutely correct in your position - but the argument that I and many others are making is that your position is not unique in world history. There are millions in Mexico who would argue that they suffered the same way under Anglo domination. The whole of South America was brutally colonized and subjugated by Spain and Portugal, and the racial inequalities caused by that conquest are still with us today. The whole of Africa was colonized. All of Europe was colonized, repeatedly, by warring empires - in fact, the Anglo settlers here came over to escape religious persecution and economic deprivation! Native American tribes, as I commented earlier, did precisely the same thing to one another.

I don't think we can take our modern perspective on civilized conduct and apply it to one side of the argument. I hope and pray that we would not do the same things today - but human beings are pretty fallible creatures... :( We do NOT want to take anything. We just want to live as fellow citizens of this great Nation. As a great American, Dr. Martin Luther King said, we want to be judged not by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character.I couldn't agree more! Please God, we can learn to live together in peace, despite the injustices of the past.

[Sodbuster]

(being rude to other forum members in Russian isn't any more welcome than being rude in English - OV)

[CW-op]

Eagle C.
greetings from the house of the turtle[Seneca]
Sodbuster, "Waste'

[CampX]

Here in BC, if you add together all the land claims made by Native Bands, it adds up to 125 PER CENT of the total area of the province!!!! We got Indians scrappin with other Indians over what the Whiteys took from them! And before the Whiteys came, they were warring and taking slaves and generally being really nasty to one another in the first place.
Yes, it was pretty abominable what we did to the Natives. But it was over a hundred years ago. Get over it. When I get my schooling paid for, don't have to pay taxes, get a free house, and get to hunt and fish year round without buying a license, then I will be equal to them. Until then, boo hoo.

[Kaylee]

Powderman -- I also apologize if my statements offended.

I'll agree that the Indians got a raw deal time and again... though I see little that can realistically be done about that now.

I'll just finish by saying this --

I've met few people anywhere that honor their US veterans with half the reverence and dedication as I've seen at powwows. I am constantly amazed and awed to see a greater sense of patriotism among a people with so little reason to admire and cherish this country, than among many of us with every reason to feel such gratitude. Very inspiring, actually.

Finally, for those of us that forget.... Wounded Knee II did precede Ruby Ridge and Waco by only a few years... I suspect we've more in common than not.


Thanks for speaking up and reminding us all of our obligations to walking the High Road.

-K

[TexasVet]

________________________________________
From a continent with an estimated 30 million inhabitants, to an estimated nationwide population of 300,000 registered tribal members.
________________________________________

My g'great grandfather was acting chief of the Cherokee Nation during the Civil War for a time, and one of the first Chief Justices of the Cherokee Supreme Court. But... The statistics above are as valid as any other raw numbers, meaning not at all.
Yes, there were probably 30 million of us when the whites landed, but this statement implies that we were slaughtered by the millions by actual white armies and policies. The biggest loss in fact, was the 90% die off along the entire northeast coast in ONE generation by mere contact with old world diseases for the first time. NO evil intent or act involved at all.
And the "registered tribal members" stat is a small fraction of the Native population out there today. Many of us could care less about the Government created "Tribal Rolls' which seem to many of us to be used mostly for getting more welfare and handouts from Uncle. I have RICH, oil rich, distant cousins who get their "tribal allotment" like clockwork from Uncle, because one uncle found out he got more govt contracts if he was a "registed Native American Minority" contractor.

We got our tails kicked across this continent because we were stone age savages in a world of guns and technology. Period. Those of us who love being what we are but still learned to join the rest of civilization, don't much miss the sacred old ways, nature is still out my back door, and that is where I worship, but I've got this computer and an airconditioned house to relax in.

Pity the poor Kickapoo who live under the bridge in El Paso. They were Eastern Woodlands Tribes way back, til every other tribe on the land pushed their tails west, west and south til they had nothing left. Should we give them back the Eastern Great Lakes area? Or leave it to the later tribes who stole it from the ones who stole it from the Kickapoo?

My heritage is in my memory and my blood, I don't need to steal it back from some poor white whose family has lived on it for a hundred or two years to feel good about who I am. And I sure don't need some "activist" Indian who lives off the hopes of the gullible (like the Jesse Jacksons among the blacks) to raise the issue for me.

Dang, sorry for the long rant. I just have little tolerance for the "historical guilt" types of profiteers.

[Drjones]

Powderman;

Delta Elite expressed sentiments mirroring my own.

I was going to put a disclaimer in my initial post saying that I mean no offense to anyone, but I would hope that my reputation would say that for me, and that it would just be implied.

Regardless, thank you for your post, and I apologise if I offended you or anyone else in any way, shape, or form, as of course that never was my intent.

I truly am a color-blind individual. I treat all humans as equals, and have equal respect for all people.

I don't know if you've seen any of my other threads about my "professor" that I've been posting, but he's an "interesting" one, to say the least.

Like how he spelled America "Amerikkka" on the board for our class today. Cute, eh?

And I *really* believe that the only reason he gets into the details he does about certain things is to perpetuate white guilt and anti-Americanism.

And I just cannot understand that.

I truly hope that he is just one of a very small minority who feels the way he does. (He is hispanic, BTW)

Oh, and I would *love* to sit around a hot, crackling fire, eating fresh venison with you!!!

Someday, I hope... :cool:

[Drjones]

Drjones, I am trying not to be critical of other people's life decisions, but I really don't think you should allow crazy people to decide the rules about your education/career/destiny.

Hey man, why do you think I'm here???

To get the TRUTH!!!

One thing I've learned since starting at TFL, and now here, is to not take anything at face value.

I need the other side of the story before I'll make up my mind.

Its just sad that I have to put up with the crap I do from this prof.

I talked again with a different student in the class today, and he also said that most all the class thinks he's wacked out.

The "Amerikkka" thing today pretty much knocked away what little respect I had left for him and his arguments.

:cuss: :fire: :banghead:
:barf:

[Khornet]

excellent thread topic. Really brings out the high level of education in this crowd. Never ceases to amaze me.

I'd also bet my Gold Cup that much of this knowledge was NOT gained through our 'educational' system, but rather through personal study.

Anyway, Porter nailed it: there is evidence of pre-Indian habitation of America by humans with CAUCASIAN features. And you can bet that before them there was another race, all the way back to Adam and Eve.

Your 'Prof' has not grown up enough to recognize that the basic problem is human nature, and that it will never change. That's why I carry a piece.

[El Tejon]

Blackhawk, careful with that "stole it fair and square" talk. The bona fide owners of Texas may turn that around on those illegal immigrants down there, the Texicanos.:D

[Baba Louie]

drjones...

At the risk of being flamed it sounds like you and your professor are actually actively engaged in a learning process. He states something, you question it. You seek out others opinions, research, etc. and form your own conclusions which just might differ from the good professor.

Look around you while in class and see if others are doing likewise, or just chewing their cud, grazing, looking up every once in a while and saying "Baaaaa". If they then regurgitate all that he has said, you must ask yourself, "Are they actually learning something?" Or are the reiterating things like "Amerikkka" and taking it as gospel?

History is a great topic, rife with studies of "Ethnic cleansing, Might makes right, In the name of God", "Mistakes were made", etc. All viewed in hindsight with the "Official history" being (usually) written by the victor.

Stronger cultures usually dominate the weaker, its almost a given. Sometimes the stronger absorbs the weaker and incorporates bits and pieces of the weaker into their own culture. Sometimes the weaker culture is eliminated. I believe thats what the dreaded Darwin had in mind when he spoke of "Survival of the fittest".

Yeah, the western white culture that many of us eminate from has committed acts that are genocidal, atrocities, you name it.

Depends on your point of view, I think and the position from which you view the past. And yet, we have evolved into a culture that can, at times, willingly embrace portions of those cultures into the proverbial "melting pot".

Right, wrong or survival o' the fit, call it what you will. Truth is a perception as we all see things from our own cultures point of view. Why and how could certain groups of people actually stand around in their streets and cheer wildly when they see video of the WTC coming down? Their point of view (truth) is different, thats for sure. Are they wrong?

There are times to study a situation, there are times to act because of a situation.

Keep challenging your professors words, keep looking around the class to see who takes it (his learned discourse) as dogma.

Watch your six and maintain your ability to think. Continue to evolve mentally and in 30 years you may find yourself having a conversation with a student who says things like, "You won't believe what my Professor wrote/said today"...:D

You're doing OK so far, I'd opine.

Adios

[DonP]

Which tribe, holding which particular lands, at what point in time?

Not to flame anyone, but the reality is that the pre-Euro US was not a static area of clearly defined and universally agreed tribal boundaries. One tribe would take over the hunting lands of another on a pretty regular basis using force of arms, and slavery of captured enemies was pretty routine in many areas, as I understand it, especially among the North East regional tribes.

Assuming they did "want it all back" how do you determine whether the Ojibway, Illinois, Pottawatomi etc. get Chicago back? (I'm about ready to give it back to anyone, anyway)

Don P.

[KMKeller]

What a great thread! I love this place.

[longeyes]

Without thieves, bandits, and bullies no progress. The trouble with a "peaceable kingdom" is that it's a kingdom and the peace isn't really peace but stasis.

As Preacherman pointed out, it wasn't the Europeans who brought conflict to the "New World." We just did it better.

Why do so many "intellectuals" long to return to the Stone Age? Don't they know there are no Starbucks there?

[spacemanspiff]

my bloodlines would be called 'native american' by most, but i actually claim my true heritage, that of "Russian Aleut". even though the russians were as bad or worse than english settlers in their treatment of the indigenous peoples, i have much to thank those early russians who fled their country and moved to what is now alaska, specifically, kodiak island.

with that said, i have no real racial pride, nor little sense of patriotism for that matter. many probably recall my own description of myself as being a bigot. that means i have room in my heart to despise people of all races, including those who not only took land that didnt belong to them, but forced the indigenous peoples to conform to their ways. to abandon their livelihoods and all they held dear. sometimes i have a difficult time realizing the difference between other bigots that just dont like natives, and those who see them as a plague that needs to be eradicated.

isnt turnabout fair play? which race has a better track record of doing the most good and abiding by the 'live and let live' mindset? is it the white man? or the native americans?

native americans knew more about honor and respect than any white man in existance.
edit - that includes respect for their fellowman, and respect for the land and its resources.

[Poodleshooter]

I'll go ask my dead great,great,great,great grandfather if he wants to give the land he stole back to America's previous inhabitants. I'll get back to you when he answers.....
Regarding the Black Hills-do we give that back to the Lakota, or to the Crow, or the Blackfeet or one of the other myriad tribes who might want it?

[longeyes]

I have a liberal friend who opined he liked America better "before the white man came." Of course he and his wife arrived for that comfortable restaurant dinner in a Lexus, happy and healthy, cellphones in pockets.

Let's not romanticize the past or native cultures. It's always been a struggle; it will go on being one. Perhaps we will find that with all our flaws, so frequently pointed out by America's alleged intelligentsia, that WE are the true "noble savages."

[dev_null]

"Hey, if we'd had the superior technology, we'd have probably done the same thing to the Europeans. What's important is how you act now." - Jim Ovellette, 2002

[buzz_knox]

I am a Native American. I was born here. Anyone who wants to drive me off because my skin color isn't as darkly tinted as theirs or because my ancestors got here a bit later is a thief who will be dealt with accordingly.

Besides which, most preColumbian tribes didn't recognize land ownership. So, screw 'em.

[TallPine]

There is a great deal to admire about the various Native American cultures. There is also a lot to NOT admire, as is true with any people.

The high point of the classic Plains Indian culture was AFTER the Spanish Europeans landed with their horses. Before that, the natives used dogs for beasts (and women) for beasts of burden.

The Native Americans in almost all cases got a raw deal from the US Govenment - a fact that was recognized even by many white westerners at the time (despite the clamor of the gold and land rush crowd). It is a real shame that the two cultures couldn't have had a more peaceful transition.

It is more than a little ironic that we are seeing a similar loss of culture and freedom among "patriots" as was seen among the "indians" - first the "cowboys" defeated the "indians", and now the "cowboys" are losing to the urban sheeple.

[NewShooter78]

I'm partly Native American myself (Seneca, as someone else posted), and I know that there is no way to go back just forward. There aren't enough truely "native" peoples left to give anything back to anyway. Although (humor intended) maybe we could work out a deal with the existing tribes to return to them CA, NY, NJ, MA, and IL to them to make up for past sins. It could work :evil: .

[Joe Demko]

Hypothetical question:
In 1945, a valuable family heirloom was stolen from your grandfather, who has since passed away. Nobody in your family forgot about the heirloom in the ensuing years. Now, the heirloom is found to be in the possession of somebody else in your community. Just for laffs, the person in possession happens to be the descendant of a ne'er-do-well who was a contemporary of your grandfather's. What would you do? Blow it off because it was "a long time ago?" Blow it off because "they stole it fair and square?" Blow it off because the ne'er-do-well was bigger, stronger, and more ruthless than grandpa? How about if you could document that the heirloom had, in fact, belonged to your family and was stolen? Still willing to just let it go?

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk, careful with that "stole it fair and square" talk. The bona fide owners of Texas may turn that around on those illegal immigrants down there, the Texicanos.That is the whole point of the SIFAS Principle, El Tejon. Wherever you are, keep in mind that somebody stole it from somebody else. Enjoy it while you can, and be vigilant because somebody wants to steal it again. If they can, they will.

The Texicans stole Texas from Mexico, but where did Mexico come from? Spain landed and claimed the land for El Roi without asking the inhabitants, etc., etc., etc.

[spacemanspiff]

for all those who say "so what if the settlers STOLE the land from the natives, its happened all over the place", then shouldnt you not care when someone steals personal belongings from you? after all, 'it happens all over the world', right?

[dave]

TexasVet has the right take on things. It's the was it was, is and ever shall be.

Live with it or change it. But for happy sake, stop crying about it.

As someone who is part (very little) indian and lives in Oklahoma, let me tell you what I see. "Native American"? That's anyone born in the good old US of A, is it not? I see a small number of indians who are proud of their backgroud, great, I think we all should be. I see a number of them who simply want to live off of hand outs, as many other Americans do. Sorry lot. I see many "blue eyed" tribal members. They have learned that they can get bussiness from the govt.

I see many members of tribal govt filling their own pockets while their "tribal brothers" are clueless. They have learned well, from our own govt. They use their title as a means to rob the coffers of their "govt", who is totally supported by the evil white govt, while they preach.

I can't speak of other areas. But in Oklahoma being "Native American" means three things. The first group is, sadly, the smallest. And I mean very few in number. They are proud of who they are, they work hard, they raise their famlies and ask nothing of others. The second group wants nothing more than to be supported, by anyone. They don't work, they don't raise their families (that's what grandmothers are for) and they have their hand out to both govt's, US and tribal. The third group has learned how to use the system well. Thjey are the "leaders". They steal as much as they can from their own tribes. As I said, this is money supplied by the US govt. (NO tribal govt can make it on "their own" unless they sell out their people to the casino owners)

Please, no comments about how much you "pity" me. I am doing quite well, thank you. You want to change my mind? Fine, change what I know and see every day.

And a little secret for those of you who may not travel in "Native American" circles. They know that all they guff about "stealing our land" is just that, guff. They simply want as much as they can get. All the liberals crying about how "the red man has been treated so badly" is music to their ears. They know that as long as it continues, something free is coming their way.

[DaveB]

From http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/tester/7_15/commentary/15893-1.html

From 1778 to 1871, the U.S. government, by Senate ratification, made 350 treaties with Native American tribes. Each Indian tribe was treated as a sovereign state. Many hundreds more treaties were negotiated but never ratified. All the treaties had one thing in common: Every single one was broken. Not one was kept intact, many were broken even before they reached Washington.

As for

And a little secret for those of you who may not travel in "Native American" circles. They know that all they guff about "stealing our land" is just that, guff. They simply want as much as they can get. All the liberals crying about how "the red man has been treated so badly" is music to their ears. They know that as long as it continues, something free is coming their way.

While it may be entertaining to slur "Native Americans" and liberals, it doesn't really change the truth, does it.

Right of conquest I can live with. Lying about motivations pisses me off.

db

[cordex]

Hypothetical question:
In 1945, a valuable family heirloom was stolen from your grandfather, who has since passed away. Nobody in your family forgot about the heirloom in the ensuing years. Now, the heirloom is found to be in the possession of somebody else in your community. Just for laffs, the person in possession happens to be the descendant of a ne'er-do-well who was a contemporary of your grandfather's. What would you do? Blow it off because it was "a long time ago?" Blow it off because "they stole it fair and square?" Blow it off because the ne'er-do-well was bigger, stronger, and more ruthless than grandpa? How about if you could document that the heirloom had, in fact, belonged to your family and was stolen? Still willing to just let it go?
1945? Would almost certainly ask the current owner about it. Might try legal action to retrieve it. Not sure if I'd have a leg to stand on, though.
1845? Not likely.
1745? Now we're getting into some serious grudges.

The Japanese who were relocated during WWII (some of whom are still alive today) who lost much property to say nothing of their freedom have a lot more valid claim to compensation than do the Tribes that were mistreated 200 years ago. That doesn't make what happened to them right.
for all those who say "so what if the settlers STOLE the land from the natives, its happened all over the place", then shouldnt you not care when someone steals personal belongings from you? after all, 'it happens all over the world', right?
Wrong. If the books are to be balanced, why should they only be balanced back to an arbitrary point? Who gets to decide that arbitrary point?

Granted, this might just be Cordex not wanting to traverse the coast of Britain and Europe saying "I'm sorry that my ancestors raped and pillaged the villages of your ancestors. Here's 1,000 Euros for your trouble"

[Carlos Cabeza]

Right of conquest I can live with.
Lying about motivations pisses me off.

ME TOO !

:fire:

[dave]

"pisses me off"? I'm really sorry now. :rolleyes:

I really don't care. No, really. I don't.



I know what is said by "Native American" leaders when they look at me when they are saying it. Of course many people have reasons not to want to believe it.

[moa]

Well, maybe there were 30 millions Indians on the continent when the first Europeans arrived, but I doubt it unless you include Mexico, Central and South America.

But everything I have read about Indians in the lower 48 states is that they probably never numbered more than 3 million scattered over a vast, mostly uninhabited area.

The Indian Wars were a 300 year long race war, and the Indians lost. Of course, the Indians got their licks in, but it was not enough to block the obvious outcome. I think many Indians during this time came to realize the outcome was obvious, but they still resisted.

Of course, it did not help the Indian cause early on when they treacherously attacked the earliest and quite friendly English settlers and massacred them in Virginia in the 1600s.

Interesting tib-bit of information concerns the building of the tran-continental railroad in the late 1860s. The Union Pacific Railroad Company had the longest piece of railroad to build, about 500 miles.

Regarding the surveyors employed by the railroad, in 1868 alone this was the fate of some of them:

1. One died of an apparent accidental gun shot wound while sitting in his tent.
2. Ten died of robberies and homicides.
3. Six drowned.
4. One fell off a trestle.
5. 45 were killed by Indians.

It was not always a cake walk for the white folks.

Regarding all those treaties that where drawn up with Indians. Many where not worth the paper they were written on because the Indian signatories had no real authority over their own people, or the land in question.

Also, the cultural difference between Indians and whites were at odds many a time. An interesting book to read on culture and the clash between the Plains Indians and the white man, is S.L.A Marshall's entitled "The Crimson Praire".

[Blackhawk]

for all those who say "so what if the settlers STOLE the land from the natives, its happened all over the place", then shouldnt you not care when someone steals personal belongings from you? after all, 'it happens all over the world', right?No. That's what RKBA is all about. I have the right to prevent my personal belongings from being stolen by somebody else, and the whole country is bound by the Constitution to enforce the agreed laws against somebody stealing my stuff.

When the rest of my citizen yahoos say I don't have the right to protect my stuff by infringing my RKBA, they're messing with my natural and Constitutional right to defend myself, my family and my stuff.

"Stole it fair and square" refers only to use of superior force that either obliterates or forces capitulation of inhabitants of some area. If you live there and can defend it, it won't be stolen. Simple as that -- just like defending your stuff.

Whoever or whatever country steals land or stuff can only keep it as long as a superior force doesn't take it from them.

An important element of the SIFAS Principle is that "the world" seems to recognize that if the "stealer" can keep whatever they stole for an indefinite but relatively long time, they have rights to it. In law, that's called "adverse possession."

If you own land you're not paying attention to, somebody can squat on it, pay taxes on it, and claim title to it by adverse possession. SIFAS.

[Shalako]

To me it seems like a problem of logistics. At the time America was being settled, a flood of immigrants was welling up on all the foreign shores in route to populate the "new" land. It was new in that western civilization had not yet applied itself to the un-developed landscape. Settlement was inevitable. Contrast this with the partially nomadic and bartering society of the native inhabitants. The two societies could not functionally co-exist. The native inhabitants had no prowess in banking, real estate, corporations, investment, production, building, zoning, infrastructure etc. You could not overlay the two societies. The only way things could happen was for the native inhabitants to be assimilated. Many chose to fight instead. Even though the assimilation was administered very very poorly, it was inevitable.

As a 1/16 Chocktaw, I have a rich appreciation for Native American heritage. If anyone wants to just give away some land, I'll take it, but I'd think you were crazy.

[spacemanspiff]

hey, i think that guy owns a really nice house. i think i'll go, beat him up, maybe kill him if he resists, and take over ownership of that house. i'll also force his children to submit to my rule, which is obviously better than the pathetic job their father is doing, i mean, he is an animist, he believes gods are in the trees and rivers and elements, how crazy is that??? plus he doesnt really work, he just lives off the land, what a lazy bastard! my way will be much much better. his family will thank me for it.

[cordex]

Hey ... that guy who beat up and in some cases killed the other guy to get his house had kids ... who had kids ... who had kids ... who had kids and so on and so on ... and maybe the house was sold a few times since then but that doesn't really matter. I want that bloody house back. Doesn't matter that I was never the owner, and that the current owner has nothing to do with what his ancestors did, or the former owner's ancestors or whatever - they should be held responsible for what the original thieves did.

*grin*

[MeekandMild]

Its just sad that I have to put up with the crap I do from this prof. Well, actually you don't. Possible actions (none of which I advocate) are a person could walk away, document that he is defaming them for ethnic reasons and file a complaint/lawsuit, punch him in the nose, et cetera.


What I do recommend is that you embrace him as a Teensy Weensy Petty Tyrant (http://fic.ic.org/cmag/98/2098.html) and spend some time learning about yourself.

As for all the codependant crap that liberal enlightened ones seem to like to shovel anytime they perceive an injustice, I'd suggest if you can't bypass it, then at least try to keep it going in the direction of the pinches tiranitos chiquititos you run into in your life and let them deal with it.

Cordex, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I notice you are from Indiana and I distinctly remember what your ancestors were doing in the 1860's. ;)

[Sodbuster]

the mouth that roared
has something to say. There's a reason that THR carries on the banner of TFL. That reason has many faces, the moderators. Apologies are in order to lendringser, Oleg, and to all, whom I may have offended with an off-color comment that is not what THR is about. To those who know what I refer to, I apologize. To those that don't, just know that my amazement at what I said is surpassed only by my amazement of the understanding and acceptance of the moderators. The people who run this forum really are as great as they seem.

[Drjones]

Make no mistake; I am NOT trying to minimize, condone, or justify what was done to the Indians.

They have suffered lots of injustices at the hands of this coutry.

But it would be a bigger fool to believe that their injuries are to be remedied by just handing them the title to large swaths of this country.

[TallPine]

Besides, didn't we pay a whole 24 bucks for Manhattan?

That's real estate - sometimes it goes up and sometimes it doesn't. :D

[Malone LaVeigh]

Not meaning to offend any of the folks out there who obviously have strong feelings on this issue, but the way it's usually framed is really silly. The proposition put forward by the professor may be serious, or may be intended to generate a discussion. If the latter, it seems to have succeeded.

No one seriously advocates giving the entire American continent back to the decendants of pre-Columbian inhabitants. But two facts remain: One, the Native American population in this country continues to live in a state of siege in a lot of places. The FBI and corrupt "progress"-oriented tribal goon squads have terrorized reservations for years. That's what Pine Ridge was all about. There's a lot the government could do to ease tribal problems that were created by their meddling in the first place. Mostly getting the hell out, probably, but some aid in appropriate community development also.

Two, the US government does have certain treaty and other legal obligations that have not been honored. Doing so would probably upset a lot of local power structures and redistribute some by-now valuable property. However, it's the right thing to do and ought to be done.

[spacemanspiff]

but cordex, what happened when the original homeowners tried to retaliate? did they have the backing of the law? or were bounties put on their heads, and money paid out for each confirmed kill of the homeowners family/friends?

think about it as if its just happened to you and your family. not generations back. wouldnt you fight for what is rightfully yours? wouldnt your grandchildren and their grandchildren still be upset at the injustices? what kind of reparitions were given the native americans at the time their land was taken? how long did it take before treatises began to be drawn up?

[cordex]

Cordex, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I notice you are from Indiana and I distinctly remember what your ancestors were doing in the 1860's.
I'm not an Indiana native.
Few (if any) of my ancestors lived in Indiana at that point, and many had not yet even come to America.
But what I'm really facinated with is the fact that you distinctly remember what was going on in 1860. *grin* Feels like another episode of "Uncle BS".

Don't get me wrong - I've enjoyed plenty of my own personal sins, but I'd be oblidged if others didn't try to visit the sins of my long-dead ancestors on me. Sven wasn't a saint and neither were any of his sons, but I don't think I deserve to be punished for what they did.

[Pendragon]

The problem with all this is that it tries to assign guilt to people who never did te deed and victim status to people who were not directly victimized.

My ethnicity is Irish/Welsh on my Fathers side and German/Italian on my mothers side.

Luckily they were already over here before WWII or else I would be consumed with guilt at what happened to the Jews.
:rolleyes:

I can only imagine the cruelty perpretrated on my ancestors by the Romans and the English.

Honestly, I have no sympathy for the conquered cultures. We are individuals, we are born into the world as it is and we can move forward or we can try and romanticise the past and draw analogies and try and assign blame, etc.

Do what you want - that is your right. All parties involved are now dead.

I was born in a middle class family - I have no inheritance and no land or anything else except what can get right now.

Maybe I should moan about the wealth my family left in Italy - there is an 800 year old house that is still there that belonged to us.

I did not ask to be born or be born in America, I have been wronged and robbed and holy crap this hurts my head.

The Native Americans were not the first people to be conquered. Not the first people to be decieved and lied to and misled and screwed out of their "birthright".

Just about any white person can claim that they are related to kings and wealthy people at some point. We all have knights and knaves in our family tree.

native americans knew more about honor and respect than any white man in existance.
edit - that includes respect for their fellowman, and respect for the land and its resources

To make statements like that is to show that you have no objectivity. You have giant rose colored goggles on. Were you there? Did you know all of the Native Americans from back then?

Were Native Americans exempt from or immune to human frailties? Jealousy, treachery, thievery, brutality, arrogance, etc?

Do you really think that the white man had to teach these things to the natives?

These unflattering traits are the birthright of every human of every color on the planet. It has always been this way and it always shall be. Races and cultures just make it easy to team up with people to do unto others before they do unto you.

Mans inhumanity to man. Every race, every culture gets a turn on that ride. Edit: Get over it.

[Drjones]

I could tell you guys some pretty horrific stories of things the Turks and Germans did to my direct relatives. (As in people my grandmother knew, things she witnessed, not my great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother's mother's friends' cousin... :rolleyes: )

Yet I harbor no ill will towards the Turks nor the Germans.

Are you saying I should?

[spacemanspiff]

how do you explain there not even being a need for land and game management until such were fully exploited by the settlers?

no i wasnt there, but it was the greed and arrogance of the settlers that led to the mistreatment of the native americans and the theft of their land.

[Drjones]

And it is through the "greed and arrogance" of the settlers that you are typing on a computer, own guns, probably have a house with heat and (well, guess you don't need A/C in AK!!! :) )

And so on and so forth.

You get my point.

I think it was stated quite well earlier:

Spiff: Do you believe ALL the wrongs committed throughout history should be set right?

Why stop with the Indians???

[Pendragon]

It MUST be "all or nothing" to set things right.

I say we do "all" and we do it chronologically. :evil:

[spacemanspiff]

oh great, this must've been what it was like for the zebras when noah was loading up the ark. okay, lets start with aardvarks...

if i had my way, i'd just have all the non-natives removed from alaska. and most of the natives. but thats cause i'm a bigot, remember? :evil:

i'm also selfish so i really dont have an opinion about other wrongs done to other races.

[Pendragon]

You are entitled to your beliefs.

At least you admit that your views are self serving and do not attempt to create some embarassing logical justification for them. I do admire that.

[Drjones]

The proposition put forward by the professor may be serious, or may be intended to generate a discussion. If the latter, it seems to have succeeded. Agreed. And I can't fault my instructor for causing me to think and do more research, even if I end up with ideas totally contrary to his own. :D

No one seriously advocates giving the entire American continent back to the decendants of pre-Columbian inhabitants.

Methinks you underestimate certain people....

My prof. certainly seems serious enough about it.

[T.Stahl]

[provocative mode]
Sometime I get the impression that the answer to the question whether taking Lebensraum and committing genocide has been acceptable or not is a matter of whether the invader did succeed in the end or not.
[/provocative mode]

[Powderman]

OK, folks.

Can we all just put this thing to bed?

This whole thing is distasteful, and is bound to result in bad blood on both sides.

Can we all just get back to discussing guns, good people, good times, and a good attitude toward our Country--OUR Country--the land where most, if not all of us were born, raised, probably will die in, and would defend to the death at any cost?

The United States of America.

How true that name rings. How fitting that for one great Nation, composed of many, sovereign States, made up of a virtual melting pot of all different races, creeds and colors.

This is especially true, considering that many things happened in our past which would -- and have--torn other nations apart.

We have all come together in the past to battle our enemies, and to battle those who would subjugate humanity and trod on the weak and helpless.

Can't we just all do this now?

I agree with a sentiment echoed here in other places. It happened. It's OVER. Let's all GET OVER IT, and concentrate on being Americans--each and every one of us!

Let's put an end to it. Right here, right now.

Please?

[CaesarI]

T.Stahl's remarks are quite accurate. But I'll get to them in a second. First some historical corrections, cause I'm pedantic.

Tamara- "That Cleopatra was Greek?"
She, being the decendent of Ptolemy, who was, a general of Alexander the Great, would be Macedonian. Back then there was a difference.

Others- "(Like giving them blankets laced with smallpox. You've got to admit that was pretty smart for way back then.)"
This is kind of a rumor of biological warfare. Many historians doubt it ever really happened, or if it did, it was not widespread. Understanding of "germs" is more recent than that.

************************************************************************************
The great lesson of History/Nature:
The strong will conquer the weak.

This doesn't make it morally right, or morally wrong. It is simply a fact of life. Quite frankly, I find the actions of those Native Americans, who resisted to the last man to be very admirable, and heroic. I would have done the same. I will do the same if tyranny comes to our land again. When tyranny comes a second time, we will be the Native Americans.

The remark about the United States dealing with the tribes as sovereign nations is quite telling. The first duty of a sovereign nation is to defend its borders.

"Lebensraum" and Genocide weren't created by Nazis in the 20th Century. They are concepts as old as human life. Those who would like to pretend we've seen the end of them will suffer the same fate as the Native Americans, if they're lucky, the fate intended by Hitler for the Jews if they're not.

There are lessons in history, those who fail to learn them WILL perish.

-Morgan

[MeekandMild]

But what I'm really facinated with is the fact that you distinctly remember what was going on in 1860. *grin* Feels like another episode of "Uncle BS".

Sure, why not? In't that the point to never forgive, never forget, never give the suckers an even break? :D

You should hear me rant about what The Romans did to my people in the first century BC. :cuss:

[TallPine]

When tyranny comes a second time, we will be the Native Americans.

That's what I was saying earlier.

I hope we put up as valiant a fight.

Sometimes you have to fight for what is right even with no hope of winning.

I have a poem by Wally McCrae of Colstrip, MT that says about the same thing.

[CaesarI]

"Sometimes you have to fight for what is right even with no hope of winning."

Churchill said something around those lines.
Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
We could be in worse company.

-Morgan

[Pendragon]

spacemanspiff,

Just who would you like to hold accountable for the injustices you percieve?

The problem is - if you want to use the American system of justice, then you are out of luck. Virtually every crime except murder has a statute of limitations on it.

Say I did steal your stuff - if I got away with it long enough, then the SoL runs out and there is not much that can be done.

Throw in the fact that the actual individuals who were the immediate victims are no longer here - nor are the "perps" and as far as the justice system is concerned, we have a non event.

If you want to modify the justice system, then that may be fine, but still, it is virtually impossible to make any modifications retro active.

So - if you want some kind of justice, you will probably need to get it yourself. Set aside for a minute the consequences of taking the law into your own hand - what kind of justice do you actually want?

There is so much land in Alaska that it is ridiculous. So, to say that you want to kick some half a million people out of a land that is over twice the size of Texas - well, how is that? Did the N.A.s claim every single acre up there? Do you just want the developed land that is currently Anchorage and the Mat-Su valley and Fairbanks?

Now - how do you decide who gets it? How pure must their blood be and how can we verify this? What about N.A.s who have significant holdings - are they exempt from the massive confiscation? Again, how pure do you have to be to be exempt and how is that proven?

Bridging the gap (canyon) to get me to agree that it should be done is hard enough - the practical reality is that is is simply not possible to do so.

I am sorry - what happened was very terrible from the perspective of the conquered cultures.

But I see the people who insist on this massive redistribution as similar to the anti-war people. They do not have a workable solution, they just have criticism for what is currently in play.

The logistics are so far beyond nightmare that words fail me. The potential for abuse, all the other issues - it just is not going to happen.

I hate logistics...

[cordex]

[provocative mode]
Sometime I get the impression that the answer to the question whether taking Lebensraum and committing genocide has been acceptable or not is a matter of whether the invader did succeed in the end or not.
[/provocative mode]
I disagree. The actions of genocide and theft that were undertaken by this nation in the past were dispicable, wrong and completely unjustified. They were and are unacceptable.
But it is also unacceptable to punish the decendants - or people whose ancestors were not involved in the dispute at all - for the wrongful actions of which they had no part.

(sorry I missed this next part the first time around)
but cordex, what happened when the original homeowners tried to retaliate? did they have the backing of the law? or were bounties put on their heads, and money paid out for each confirmed kill of the homeowners family/friends?
I fail to see how this justifies a more modernized theft of property from the current rightful owners.
think about it as if its just happened to you and your family. not generations back. wouldnt you fight for what is rightfully yours?
Yes I would.
But this is the point ... it did happen generations ago. Many, many generations ago. If it had happened just now, or within ... say a generation, there would absolutely be cause for fighting for what is rightfully yours.
wouldnt your grandchildren and their grandchildren still be upset at the injustices?
Possibly. But how many generations must grudges be held? Is one thing to enjoy complaining about why you didn't get your fair shake because umpteen generations ago something horrible happened to someone you are distantly related to, and another to claim that as an excuse to take that which does not belong to you.
what kind of reparitions were given the native americans at the time their land was taken? how long did it take before treatises began to be drawn up?
Again, I fail to see how injustices committed against people dead for generations, by people dead for generations can make it acceptable to steal land today.

[JohnBT]

Newbreak...May 9, 2006...PETA says Native Americans stole the land from the animals. Demands they return it.

Details at 11:00

[DaveB]

I agree that it's not realistic that we give North America back to the Indians, but there are some things that we could do as a nation that would make an enormous difference in the lives of the remaining Indians.

Do a complete and honest accounting of the DOI/DOE trust accounts. The tribes are most likely owed $millions for petro production on tribal lands. I worked for a time for the BIA, and I am sure that we could do a better job (I toned down my language here).

Also, make a systematic effort to steer small business activity into areas where reservation Indians could have access to real jobs.

I'm not an expert in this stuff, but I'm sure that society could help Indians to 'help themselves'. Mebbe this is touchyfeeley/liberal for some, but I think that we owe it to them to try.

db

[jmbg29]

Drjones,

If you would like to read more about the "smallpox blankets", try this site http://www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/ Look under Lord Jeffrey Amherst and Smallpox blankets.

Amherst, Massachew:cuss:s is named after Lord Jeff (as he is refered to in those parts). Amherst is one of the liberal capitals of planet Earth BTW.

While it is true that Lord Jeff bragged to his superiors that he was giving the Indians smallpox with the blankets, a bright 5 year old child - given all of the facts of the matter - would be able to see right through the brag.

You see, Lord Jeff et al. were going after the Indians in question because of their alliance with the French, the eternal enemies of all things Anglo-Saxon. The French "alliance" included inter-marriage with said Indians, ergo there was the inevitable swapping of bodily fluids between the two groups.

Now tell me. What is more likely to produce an epidemic of Smallpox? A game of tonsil hockey in sudden-death overtime with a filthy French voyageur? Or a wool blanket one recieved from a prancing Brit ponce?

The liberals will always go for the latter explaination, since it involves the blaming of scheming white people. Luckily, they will always be flat wrong, as they are on most everything.

And since even half-bright white-trash like myself can do the

"prancing Brit ponce" - "the blankets" + "the filthy French voyageur" x "tonsil hockey in SDO" = "Indians dead from smallpox"

math (with no fancy book larnin' at all) I stand by my assertion that most of these over-educated liberals know that they are flat wrong, but choose to deceive others anyway. Lying is what they do.

Your professor is a liar.

Oh, and the native* Americans get their land back when I get my fjord in Norway "back", read that NEVER!

*Since I was born here on this continent, I am a native American.

[spacemanspiff]

well its more complicated than just "pure blood". remember, i dont like most of my own brethen either. basically, i want single good looking women (not necessarily natives, prefer redheads and brunettes, basically, all the ladies that work at the Great Alaskan Bush Company) to live in my harem that will be in the matsu valley and will cover a thousand sqare acres. i'll be able to hunt moose, bear, dall sheep, and fish for kings, silvers, etc.
plus i'll have a getaway down in homer where i can fish for halibut and more salmon.

who would want to live in fairbanks anyways?

:evil:

[Pendragon]

Hmm

You will need some henchmen :evil:

[spacemanspiff]

i'll need five henchmen that will live on adjacent 1000 square acre lots to the west, northwest, north, northeast, and east of my lot in the matsu valley.
and since i'll claim the entire kenai peninsula, i'll need more henchmen that will occupy 500 square acre lots between the matsu valley and the kenai peninsula, so that will take maybe 3-4 extra henchmen.
the henchmens families of course are welcome (unless you'd like me to 'share' the bush company ladies). perfer that all henchmen are adept at reloading ammo. oh and they must also be good hunters. and fishers as well.
i stink at fishing and i dont know how to hunt. or reload. :D
oh yeah, you'll also need to know how to navigate a boat. dont do that very well either.

[Powderman]

Now tell me. What is more likely to produce an epidemic of Smallpox? A game of tonsil hockey in sudden-death overtime with a filthy French voyageur?

Eeeeewwwwwwww.................the mental picture!!!:neener:

i'll need five henchmen that will live on adjacent 1000 square acre lots to the west, northwest, north, northeast, and east of my lot in the matsu valley.

I'm there, dude.....:evil:


the henchmens families of course are welcome (unless you'd like me to 'share' the bush company ladies). perfer that all henchmen are adept at reloading ammo. oh and they must also be good hunters. and fishers as well.

Give me that much land, and I'll run my 650 until it self destructs!!:evil:

[DaveB]

To avoid offending the phallically-challenged, they should henceforth be called...

henchpersons.

db

[spacemanspiff]

doesnt that phrase "challenged" indicate that those who are without are disabled somehow?
would this qualify as long term disability? or short term? :evil:

[Peetmoss]

The can have NYC and California if they want. If they want anymore they can go to hell in a handbasket.

However I don't see were they have any complaints. Maybe we stole there land maybe they were to stupid to realize what was going on but thats all besides the point to me. I would bet that there is not one Indian alive that had there land stolen or bought at an unfair price. If there is let this person come forth with proof that they were personaly cheated, or robbed and then we should compinsate said person moniteraly.

The Indians in general have been more then compinsated for there ancestors grief. They get all the benifits of being a citizen with none of the resposibilities. They pay no taxs but we maintain there roads, they get welfare, a free education. Oh yeah one other thing they aren't Native in the way they like to think of it. There race migrated here too just like the Europeans. I am a Native American I was born here just like my father and his father before him. :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :fire: :banghead: :cuss:

[spacemanspiff]

so, peetmoss, treating the brownskins like the whiteskins is "compensation"?? by the way, i pay taxes. i dont live off welfare. i didnt take the 'free' education.
in fact, the only benefit i make use of is the free medical care.
which by the way, is bound to be a useful bargaining chip to any prospective females out there that dont want to spend thousands of dollars squeezing out kids. they can have mine for free!:D

[DaveB]

I would bet that there is not one Indian alive that had there land stolen or bought at an unfair price. If there is let this person come forth with proof that they were personaly cheated, or robbed and then we should compinsate said person moniteraly.

One Indian alive? Not relevent. The tribes owned the land, not individuals (in most cases).

Is it ok to quote myself? If so...

From 1778 to 1871, the U.S. government, by Senate ratification, made 350 treaties with Native American tribes. Each Indian tribe was treated as a sovereign state. Many hundreds more treaties were negotiated but never ratified. All the treaties had one thing in common: Every single one was broken. Not one was kept intact, many were broken even before they reached Washington.


db

[Pendragon]

We really do not have a mechanism to understand and adjudicate the rights or property of a "tribe" in our culture.

Perhaps the closest model would be a corp - with the members being similar to share holders.

Now that could raise some interesting parallels. What if the gov went in and took over Microsoft without compensation? Lets say three generations from now, people come forward with stock and say "my family was robbed - we owned 1,000 stocks valued at X"...

hmm

spif, you are one ornery old guy, but you sure did manage to make me start missing Alaska again... :eek:

[cordex]

One Indian alive? Not relevent. The tribes owned the land, not individuals (in most cases).
Did they? I was under the impression that many/most Indian tribes didn't recognize the concept of land ownership.
so, peetmoss, treating the brownskins like the whiteskins is "compensation"?? by the way, i pay taxes. i dont live off welfare. i didnt take the 'free' education.
in fact, the only benefit i make use of is the free medical care.
which by the way, is bound to be a useful bargaining chip to any prospective females out there that dont want to spend thousands of dollars squeezing out kids. they can have mine for free!
Spiff,
I don't think his point was that Indians are treated like paleface. I think he was saying that in some respects, modern Indians are given benefits that whities don't get. That you only choose to take advantage of the "free" healthcare isn't the issue, is it?

Does that really work, though?

[Joe Gunns]

Should the US government have had a consistent Indian policy?
Yes.
Should it have honored treaties made by its representatives? Yes.
Should Indians have the right to claims under treaties that were never abrogated or superceded by later treaties?
Yes.

The Sioux tribe has successfully sued over the taking of the Black Hills. They received multimillion dollar award which, last I heard, continues to grow in value as they refuse to accept it. They want the Hills back. The Hills that they took, when driven from The Great Lakes region by other tribes. The courts have recognized their treaty claim, but not in a way that the Sioux are willing to accept.

But what I really want to throw into the hopper is a discussion whether Indians were more ecologically sensitive than we.

My thoughts:

AS a stone-age culture with minimal metal working for decorative purposes, obviously they produced no industry-caused enviromental degradation. However, since it was desire for European goods that led first contactees to accept/allow original European settlement, one could suppose, that had such settlement been successfully limited to coastal trading villages, eventually growing to cities (say analagous to Hong Kong in Communist China), that within time industrialization would have spread from Europe to Eastern tribes. Ultimately, one or more of these groups, the expansionist Iroquois perhaps, could have come to dominate the continent and would likely have produced a modern industrial state with its attendant problems of pollution and resource depletion. This of course is all purest speculation since the force of European expansion swept over all cultures, without serious check.

The Indian's vaunted concern for the environment was, in part, due to a hunter-gatherer-farmer lifestyle wherein their success was due to an awareness of the ecological forces around them. The same was true of Europeans in the pre-industrial age.

What moderns describe as eco-consciousness on Indian's part is also due to low population density and nomadism. Fewer people make fewer demands on the land. Many tribes moved to new locations when the concentration of sewage, the depletion of soil, and the diminution of game became too great. Some had a regular seasonal cycle of relocation that produced the same effect. In those regions where permanent towns were established, still, the land damage was comparable to preindustrial agrarian settlements elsewhere in the less-densely populated preindustrial world.

The idea that Indians did not waste resources is challenged by the existence of "buffalo-jumps" where large numbers of buffalo were killed in begin driven over a convenient precipice. More were killed than could be utilized by those driving them to their doom. However, the huge numbers of buffalo vis a vis the numbers of hunters and the apparent frequency of these "jumps" made the ecological effect negligable.

Had Indian population rebounded from the initial effects of European diseases I believe that eventually the native populations would have reached a density that would have produced significant damage to the environment, even if they remained unindustrialized.

(As an aside the waves of epidemic that preceeded the first settlements were largely due to inadvertant contact with Spanish and French and coasting English traders/explorers. These were responsible for the lion's share of Indian deaths. Intentional germ warfare was of more limited scope.)

Enough rambling. Gotta go watch some gratuitous violence on video.

[spacemanspiff]

technically, you cant really call what native americans did "immigration". theres a distinct difference between the native americans who gradually moved across the bering straits as population grew and more area was needed for their crops/ hunting grounds, and the spaniards that came over to the middle americas.

one gradually moved, the other did a systematic invasion.

the palefaces did a systematic invasion as well, not because they needed the land, but because they wanted to be free of tyrannical rule. different motivations, different goals.

and i dont know of any native americans that dont pay taxes. maybe thats something done down in the lower 48, but us alaskans all pay our taxes. and getting scholarships for education up here is more difficult than buying a gun in the PRK. not everyone qualifies. not everyone wants to qualify. not all native americans are getting the 'free ride' peetmoss spoke of.

*am accepting applications for henchpeople*. must have own guns and fishing equipment. must be willing to repel any threat, foreign or domestic (better known as tourists). any applicants should discourage friends and family from vacationing in alaska, if they love them, that is.

[TexasVet]

How about if you could document that the heirloom had, in fact, belonged to your family and was stolen? Still willing to just let it go?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Of course. The statute of limitations is WELL run out. It would be rude, gauch, uncivilized and tasteless to go after someone who had absolutely nothing to do with the original theft, even if you could prove it was stolen by their ancestor. Same goes for you white eyes, we're letting you off scot free.

[MeekandMild]

I knew it! or at least I suspected it strongly!
You see, Lord Jeff et al. were going after the Indians in question because of their alliance with the French, the eternal enemies of all things
This changes everything. :mad: