[JohnKSa]

A friend of mine wants to customize a 1911. He wants to start with a COMPLETE PISTOL and then gradually modify it as the money is available.

He wants to be able to shoot it during the process, so he's not interested in buying a frame and going from there.

Obviously he's going to be replacing a lot of the parts in the process of his customization, so it doesn't make sense for him to buy an expensive pistol with a lot of "bells & whistles." At the same time he needs a good solid pistol to start with.

What should I recommend to him?

[R.H. Lee]

Here it is. Springfield 1911A1 Milspec:

http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/pistols/a1/PB9108L.jpg

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-ms.shtml

[Psssniper]

Norinco

[Rob96]

Colt 1991A1!

[1911Tuner]

recommending a starter pistol is rather like setting up your best friend with a
blind date. You know..."He/She is PERFECT for you!" :rolleyes:

Rather than do that, I'll just say that...in the current marketplace...if I had plans to buy one to shoot with intentions to upgrade, modify and/or customize later...I'd buy the Springfield Standard Mil-Spec.

Luck!

Tuner

[Bill Z]

For a little more than a Springfield you can go with a Colt, which is by far a better 'bargain' depending on your definition of bargain. Depending on the upgrads that your friend wants done and the options he would like made abvailable to him, in the long run the Colt will come out much cheaper.

For instance, there is a wider variety of grip safeties available for the standard .250 tangs that the Colt has VS the Springfileds .220 tangs. While some of the same grip safeties can be fit to the SA, it will incur an additional cost of welding the tangs.

The internals of the Colt are of better quality and can be reused for the most part. Then there are thing like recontouring the frontstrap of a Springfield if you want it like the Colt style.

In addition, if you ant to get rid of the ILS system in the SA, you are talking another 50.00 or more dollars for a quality MSH on top of having it fitted and installed.

Based on the fact that he wants to go custom in the future, the Colt wuld be the better bargain. The SA can be taken down the same road and is a worthy pistol, but it's a pay now or pay later type deal.

[Sergeant Sabre]

I vote for GI Springfield

However, it is true that the Colt Government is made with higher quality internals. Meaning, where Springer may use a MIM or cast part, Colt might use a forged or machined part. THAT is what you pay for with a Colt.

[foghornl]

Springfield Armory parkerized finish "GI .45" model. MSRP is $499, can be had for a bit over $400 with careful shopping. As close to the WWII 1911-A1 as you will find.

Model PW9108L...single-side safety, old small-style GI sights, etc. Does have that stupid Springfield ILS lawyer-lock, though.

[ccw007]

I have the same type plan and I will be going with the Springfield Mil Spec.

[Trigger]

Springfield.

[ggamyang]

another vote for GI springfield ;)

[cookekdjr]

Many Bullseye competitors say:
Springfield 1911A1 Milspec

[ClarkEMyers]

Answer to your question is Springfield but I'd begin with the end in view - what do you want to end up with?

FREX do you want lots of meat on the grip for a custom front strap treatment or do you want say a Kimber with checkering that you will leave alone? That is do you want something with lots of metal to remove but good symmetry and no off center cuts or polish or do you want something with more work done for you? In the latter case I'd look mostly at Kimber and wouldn't ignore Dan Wesson. Dan Wesson has had some interesting combinations that might be closer to a final product. Then too, there are those who say go Colt if you want an heirloom for the grandkids.

[Gunsnrovers]

I vote Springfield Milspec or GI as well. As for the cost of replacing the MSH, doesn't Colt still use a nylon one?

[mack69]

When I decided to join the 1911 fraternity I was thinking the same way.....buy a mil spec and build it....ended up buying a Dan Wesson PMA-S (Pointman Major Aussie Stainless that already had everything and more that I was wanting for much less.
DAN WESSON FIREARMS MODEL: PMA-S CALIBER: 45 ACP TRIGGER: Nowlin Match Grade 3 hole TRIGGER PULL: 3.5 LBS SIGHTS: Bomar style adjustable match BARREL: Forged 416 Match stainless steel GRIPS: AAA Cocobolo Exotic hardwood New Stainless Steel 45 ACP full size 1911, Stainless forged slide With Front & rear serrations and stainless steel frame. Stainless Steel small parts. Match grade hammer and sear, Chip McCormick beavertail safety, & extended thumb safe, Bomar Style fully adjustable sights, beveled mag well, & 1 7-round Pointman magazine. This gun is loaded with high performance features and has the very nice Clark style target rib milled down the top of the slide. Match ready out of the box. New in Box, with papers. 100 % factory warranty.
Good luck...mack



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/mack69/Gun%20stuff/DCP_2165.jpg

[ccw007]

mack69 What did the pointman cost you if you do not mind me asking?

[psyopspec]

For a fixer-upper, +1 Mil-Spec.

[R.H. Lee]

In addition, if you ant to get rid of the ILS system in the SA, you are talking another 50.00 or more dollars for a quality MSH on top of having it fitted and installed.
Horsefeathers. I don't have the Brownell's catalogue in front of me, but the 3 parts are very inexpensive. "having it fitted and installed"? :confused: I replaced the parts in about 10 minutes. And that was the first time, so I was no doubt slow.

[Lonestar.45]

Springfield G.I. I just got the Champion version a while back, and have put 500 flawless rounds through it. I'd highly recommend it.

[ryoushi]

The internals of the Colt are of better quality and can be reused for the most part. Then there are thing like recontouring the frontstrap of a Springfield if you want it like the Colt style.

In addition, if you ant to get rid of the ILS system in the SA, you are talking another 50.00 or more dollars for a quality MSH on top of having it fitted and installed.

I'm no pistolsmith not even a redneck one but I'm pretty sure all current production Springfields feature the Colt style frontstrap I know my new NM Milspec does, my old Milspec didn't. Also it's cheaper to do away with the SA ILS than the Colt series 80 safety if you want a true 1911.

Some of the Colt internals are better quality (at least theat's what everybody on the internet says) but most everybody replaces them with Nowlin, C&S, EGW etc. items anyway. That's why pistolsmiths have all those Colt hammers laying around.

reno

[cottontoptexan]

I have the Springfield Armory Champion blued model Mil-Spec . It has the bushingless barrel. I love it and it is reliable. Good gun for the money. Now if he found a 1991-A1 blued Colt in nice condition that might be another option. It is his choice. I guess i should not ask this question but HOW IS IT EVERYONE WANTS TO CHANGE EVERYTHING THAT THE GUN COMPANY PUT ON AT THE FACTORY????? Sights yes, clips yes, but to rebuild a perfectly good gun to me just does not make sense. I like them the way John Browning designed them. They work, they shoot and they last. Just my opinion and my 2 cents if it is worth that much. Curt in Wash State

[spartacus2002]

My Springfield Loaded 1911 came with the major mods (lowered/flared ejection port, beavertail grip safety, rounded hammer, etc) and I paid $620 new for it. Cheaper to pay that than pay $500 + mods -- especially when you figure gunsmith labor price tag into it.

In 1000 rounds, no jams except with a problem magazine.

[ACP]

Colt 1991A1 or Series 70 repro. Great steel, internals, pedigree, reliability, and resale. Do it right the first time!

[Richard.Howe]

Another vote for the Dan Wesson. Satisfied customer -- and I own a Les Baer SRP for comparison.

[cstreu1026]

I vote for a Springfield. I just got my first 1911...a loaded Springfield. I've only put 100 rounds through it but they were a great 100 rounds. I originally had intended to buy a GI mil spec that was on sale for $399 at a local shop but I didn't like he sights and after talking to a few sales people there I realized I couldn't convert the GI to the loaded for anything near the price difference.

[Puppy]

Colt's 1991A1 series.

[Man-O-War]

Another vote for the Springfield 1911A1 Milspec.

[Bill Z]

RileyMc
Horsefeathers. I don't have the Brownell's catalogue in front of me, but the 3 parts are very inexpensive. "having it fitted and installed"? I replaced the parts in about 10 minutes. And that was the first time, so

Ed Brown flat MSH for Gov't/Commander Brownell's part # 087-000-027 $59.95
Wolff hammer spring 23lb Brownell's part # 969-262-230 $4.29
Mainspring cap pin Brownell's part # 100-000-878 $1.65
Mainspring housing pin retainer Brownell's part # 100-000-871 $1.65
(you see, there is also a fourth part as the ils system doesn't have the retaining pin, but I'm sure with your experience you knew that and overlooked it, right?)
Total for MSH conversion 67.54 plus shipping, over 17.00 more than I quoted in my original post. Many times a springfield will require a little fitting and any pistol will need some blending. Remember the posters original goal was to later customize this pistol, so I was pointing out a few things that would come up down the road, and I would only reccomend quality parts.

You don't have to buy a series 80 Colt, they make a 70 series copy agian, or you can buy a nice used pre 70 series for about 400.00 if you look for it, however, if you are inclined to purchase an 80 series Colt and then are stupid enough to tamper with the 80 series safety, the shim is only about 4.00.

RileyMc
I was no doubt slow

Your words, not mine, but I agree. :neener:

Break out your Brownell's next time and read the question being posted first next time, maybe there would be a little more understanding once you take the ultimate goal in mind.If you don't understand, maybe a less condecending tone would be the higher road, wouldn't you think? :scrutiny:

[Bill Z]

Springfield makes a nice pistol, I am working on one right now and am impresseed with the fit and finish of most of it, but my customer had some changes he wanted made to his much like the above poster had inquired about. I have absoloutly nothing against the Springfields, but was merely pointing out some things that someone with an ultimate goal of customising should consider. Bargain doesn't mean cheap to most people, at least not most of the people I deal with. Bargain has a whole 'nuther meaning.

Now, for those of you who were so quick to just jump me, or were simply quick to choose the SA, based on the original posters question, let me ask you why you prefer the SA over let's say the Colt or Kimber or Dan Wesson, or, or, or..... What is your reasoning? I'm not to old to learn something here.

[Master Blaster]

Ed Brown flat MSH for Gov't/Commander Brownell's part # 087-000-027 $59.95
That would be the part you do not need to replace unless you want to change the round steel housing that comes with the springer to a flat EB housing.

These are the three RileyMc is refering to that need to be replaced to get rid of the ILS feature, and you only need the hammer spring if you are unhappy with the pull weight.

Wolff hammer spring 23lb Brownell's part # 969-262-230 $4.29
Mainspring cap pin Brownell's part # 100-000-878 $1.65
Mainspring housing pin retainer Brownell's part # 100-000-871 $1.65

[Bill Z]

Did you miss the part in my reply that stated 'replacing with a quality mainspring housing'? I din't say anything about just converting and ILS housing. In my position, and one of most 'smith's, there are considerations that have to be taken into consideration. It's akin to me also not defeating a series 80 style safety with a shim or a Series II/schwartz safety with a 70 series FP. There is no mistake or appearance of the original style safety. Back yard home guys can do these things because it's only your hyde, if I do it, it's mine.

[Gunsnrovers]

While I like Ed Brown parts, there are less expensive QUALITY alternatives then $59. The S&A MSH without loop will be a good $20 cheaper. Les Baer has their MSH in the $30 range.

For my GI, I replaced the MSH with one off a pre ILS Springfield. You local gunsmith may have USGI parts available too.

If your friend does send the pistol off to be built, many smiths have packages that include replacing most of the parts folks find offensive in off the shelf 1911's.

The Milspecs and GIs have proven to be good platforms for build ups. They are a solid s70 style off the shelf base gun. A good chunk of the "ready to order" 1* packages out of Yost Bonitz are off GI's. The frame, slide, and barrel are very usable. Also, gunsmiths get a much better price out of Brownells then regular consumers. Your gunsmith is not paying $59 for the MSH he put in for you.

[Michael_2112]

Colt 1991A1

[Bill Z]

You mean you purchased a 80 series just to shim it? Once again, I'm looking at a bit of different perspective than you are, I won't disable safeties, it's not wise or necessary to do so if you know what you are doing. You can get just as good and reliable a trigger out of an 80 series as anything, the shim is not a very good idea. Would you feel better if I said unsafe or irresponsible instaed of stupid?

I have worked with many of these other MSH. While I do use other parts from these manufactures, I have found that hands down the Ed Brown is of the highest quality. While the Bears I have seen are around 35.00 or so, we are still talking about an average of 20.00 or so difference from what I showed as the MSH of choice for me. That quote priced out was 17.00 higher than the 50.00 I originally stated, and then we didn't even have shipping. Use your numbers and we hit the 50.00 mark, right?

Sorry, but using old take-off's, while economical and wise in some cases doesn't cover all of the bases. I simply was bringing up points in comparison to value of the overall cost of the pistols. I'll still stand behind my staement that the Colt is the best base pistol to be had if you are going out and specifically purchasing a base pistol for customizing, and then I would reccomend the series 70 style giring group over the 80, and would even go so far as to reccomend buying an un duffed with pre 70 series Colt. I still haven't said anything bad about the Sprigfields other than that you do limit a few options and that I wouldn't reccomend re-using some of the parts. They are still nice pistols, just not the best 'bargain' for customizing in my eyes. Weren't we here looking for opinions? Is mine of less value that yours?

[Bill Z]

BTW, what do you consider a 'proper' half cock notch?

[Gunsnrovers]

I prefer hooks on the half cock notch if I'm not going to have the firing pin block.

[R.H. Lee]

Bill Z Wolff hammer spring 23lb Brownell's part # 969-262-230 $4.29
Mainspring cap pin Brownell's part # 100-000-878 $1.65
Mainspring housing pin retainer Brownell's part # 100-000-871 $1.65
According to my math, that's a lot less than $50

and
I'm not to old to learn something here. Good. Keep an open mind and you might.

[Bill Z]

I like the captive hook also, but I do make a slight mod that some manufactureres do automatically on some hammers now to protect the tips of the sear that engage the hammer hooks in the event it goes to half cock, or if a customer is 'testing' out his new toy that he doesn't destroy a trigger job.

I go from this
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/878560/5959698/79638625.jpg

to this
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/878560/5959698/80885041.jpg

or in the case of some manufacturers, they do this
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/878560/5959698/80885048.jpg

This actually 'adds' to the safety in my humble opinion as you are helping protect the engagement surfaces of the sear and hammer.

This is reminicent of what the Gold Cups have in them.

I also had a couple of old wide spur hammers done, but this one is the worse for age as I let the elements get too it. What a waste, but nobody is perfect.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/878560/5959698/80885654.jpg

[Bill Z]

Riley, you still didn't read my original post clearly and my reasoning why, did you now? I didn't say defeat the feature, I said replace the part with a quality part. Don't be so sensitive.

[Gunsnrovers]

I didn't buy the S80 to modify, but over 12 years it changed a little as parts came and went. I had a very nice trigger pull done on the S80 parts and know it can be done by smiths willing to take the time. With the parts removed it got even smoother. Then I went to the hammer with captive half cock notch.

I have no issue with S80 parts and think it's much better then the swartz system. I prefer the Springfield response. Much easier for the user to "correct".

I haven't seen a Colt locally under $600 (even basic ones) which really puts the Springfield ahead in terms of base gun. Imbel makes a nice slide and frame and their barrels have done well for me with good bushings installed.

[albanian]

I just got a Rock Island Armory 1911 that is a 1911A1 mil-spec. It looks good to me. I don't many problems at all with it and the finish is quite good. It depends how inexpensive he is wanting to go. You can get the RIA 1911s for $300 new and a less for used. I got it for the same reasons as you are asking about but I have no intentions of turning it into a match gun or a carry gun. It is just something to mess around with.

If I wanted to build something into a really nice 1911, I would start with SS for sure. I have seen used Springfield 1911 for less than $400 and think they are a good bargin at that price.If I was going to do it again, I would just get the Springfield because it has a higher resale value. If you don't like it, you can get more of your money back from it. I don't think I am going to loose money on my RIA 1911 since I got it pretty cheap.