4473 Question

Is there any way to find out if a firearm sold "as new" has been sold prior? Got it home last might, and cleaned it thoroughly, as I do all new guns- and it was the dirtiest new gun I've ever bought. Had quite a bit of powder residue in both mags and the slide area.

Not sure whether I should take it back....

I'd suggest calling the manufacturer. They should be able to tell you when the gun was manufactured if you give them the serial number.

A gun can be fired by the staff and still sold as new since there's never a transfer of ownership and I even know of a shop that will let you try before you buy. So it's possible that it's been fired a few times since it came from the factory. Personally, if I'm paying a new preimium, I want the gun to be as untouched as possible since it left the factory.

Some handguns would be sold as "new" even they had been fired at gunshops that have ranges for test-firings by potential buyers. But I would assume that a gun sold in a fashion like this would have at least been cleaned somewhat. Even a patch or two thru the barrel and a wipedown of the inside of the action is easy to do. It might be harder to determine if a gun had been fired a hundred time or so after a cleaning, but a reputable shop would tell a potential customer that it had been test fired before.

Most all manufacturers will test-fire a gun t least once as a quality control step before it leaves the factory.

I've looked at new cars that had 50-75 miles on the odometer and they were sold as new cars. Test drives, moving around the lot, taken to tent sales and such add miles, but a good car dealer will take the current odometer reading and add it to the end of the factory warranty so you at least get the full mileage allowance for it.

Some are also "test fired" @ the factory.

I used to frequent a dealer that bragged about how each gun in his cabinet shot.He had fired most all of them.This came up when I asked why a Coonan .357 was sooo dirty if it was new.Turns out he had over 200 rounds through that one. :mad:

Called the factory, explained the situation, and also that I saw some discoloration on the inside of the slide near the muzzle. I was told that a new hand-picked slide, and new barrel will be shipped to me on Monday. They are shipping them out to me and relying on the honor system for me to ship the "old" parts back.

Despite some rumblings I've seen posted on this, and other boards, I can say that if they deliver as promised- I am quite impressed with Kahr customer service.

The term "as new" covers a multitude of sins, most of which fall under the rubric of "lying."

When I read an entry on one of the auction sites that sounds too good to be true, I figure it has to be too good to be true.

I'm tired of liars.

Funny thing is- I thought about purchasing the PM9 on Gunbroker, and gave my business to my "neighborhood shop" to prevent that very thing. Since I can't prove it wasn't new, I won't post the name of the shop. They've done right by me in the past; something just seems a little hinky this time- but I could be wrong.

We'll see when I get the new slide/barrel.

Hi,

I've taken to inspecting "new" guns very carefully before buying them, even from a reputable store.

That's pretty good customer service from the factory. Enjoy your PM9.

Allot of good points here. If the gunshop has a range I would definately check the gun over seeing if it's been fired. Once it's cleaned it's hard to tell. Since guns are fired at the factories you're going to have some residue.I can speak for my dealer. He receives the guns and they go into the cabinet.He has no range. If he does have a gun that's used but in new condition he put "as new" on the ticket.There are allot of shady characters out there.Like the old saying Buyer Beware.

Ruger Redhawk

I thought they shot all new guns at the factory. Most of the new ones I have bought come with the test target.

I maybe wrong but I think Mfg's are required by federal law to proof test them. I know Ruger uses extremely hot loads which are not available for the general public.You'll find allot of new guns have a fired case enclosed in a envelope with the gun.Some states require it as a type of fingerprinting.I know all the new Ruger's I've bought lately have the fired case enclosed.Unfortunately Ruger is now installing the key lock like Smith and Taurus have been.

Ruger Redhawk

Did the tag say "new" or "as new?" In many cases "as new" = used lightly/well cared for.

Update:

Slide, new barrel, new recoil spring and assembly arrived yesterday as promised. Shipped old of the same back UPS ground at my expense. Got home, cleaned off the WD-40 that it came shipped with, and.....promptly discovered a scratch in the slide on the right side of the front sight, most likely caused when pushing it into the slot. :uhoh: :what:

:banghead:


I normally wouldn't be so picky, but, when you're talking about a gun that lists for a little over $700...


Called customer service- and was told that as soon as another slide is available off the production line, it'll be shipped, and return shipping on the old one pre-paid. I was told it will most likely ship Friday, so I should receive it Monday.

Hopefully third time will be the charm...

Stay tuned, sports fans....

"As new" doesn't mean "is new". "As new would to me indicate that the condition of the firearm is equal to that when it was indeed brand new and reshly shipped.

There is no law in the U.S. requiring gun manufacturers to proof test their guns or to function fire them.

At one time, S&W, Ruger, and Colt all fired a proof load for each chamber and one cylinder or magazine for function firing. Ruger told me that doing this was expensive, but they felt it was worth it in reducing customer complaints to near zero.

But when I asked the rep for Kimber at the NRA convention if they proof fired or function fired their guns, he told me they fired only one Cor-Bon load (which is NOT proof pressure) as a proof, and did no function firing. I suspect most of the other makers today do about the same.

Jim

All guns with German proofmarks have been fired with 3 rounds with a 30% higher pressure than standard load.

A Kodiak double rifle with Italian proofmarks showed up in Germany in the '80s that had no chambers cut, now that was a new gun...

Keep in mind: If you fill out a 4473 (and there aren't any local serial # registration regs.) the 4473 stays with the dealer. If you buy a gun from a shop, and decide after a period of time (either fired or unfired by you) to return that gun to the same shop as a trade, the dealer can pull the 4473 on that gun and destroy it. Thereafter remarketing the gun as new. This would depend on condition of gun when trade takes place. I have personally had this happen to me. Illegal? Probably, but your receipt for original purchase would be only proof of purchse, and without original 4473 for your purchase of said gun, you'd never be contacted if gun was to come up as a problem.

There is no law in the U.S. requiring gun manufacturers to proof test their guns Interesting Jim - never had given that much thought. In UK tho proofing was mandatory on every gun - of whatever description. London or Birmingham Proof Houses.

The few pieces I had over there, which I imported when I came over, all carry such proof stampings and IIRC the proof loads were ''considerable''!!!

New update: Gun is on it's way back to Kahr, on their dime- there is a marking inside of the triggerguard that may be the letter "U", (USED)which is Kahr's way of marking a gun that has been repaired after a replacement gun has been sent to a customer. The serial # shows as new, but I was told to send it back, to rectify any and all flaws, cosmetic or otherwise. My local FFL took the gun in today, but naturally, can't get it overnighted until Tuesday. :uhoh: I was told by Kahr that they will try to get that one done "right", or a new piece, in my hands by the end of the week.


Hopefully, that will then be the end of this particular adventure...

Note to self: Examine every "new" firearm thoroughly before plunking down $$$; at least basic field strip on an autoloader...

Although I'm obviously frustrated, Kahr's service department has been first rate in attempting to get it resolved.

the dealer can pull the 4473 on that gun and destroy it.
HELL NO THEY CAN'T!

ANYTIME a firearms leaved the possession of the Federal Firearms Licensee there HAS to be a record of that transfer. If the FFL transfers the firearm to another FFL then an entry into the FFL's Bound Book is enough IF the FFL has a copy of the other Dealers FFL on file.

ANYTIME a firearm is transferred from a FFL to an individual, non-FFL holder then a form 4473 MUST be completed and MUST, by federal statue, be RETAINED. Period, no ifs, ands or buts. Re-tained. Forever.

ANY FFL holder who destroys a correctly completed form 4473 is in DEEP Stuff!
Deep, expensive, STUFF!

If a firearm is returned to the FFL from which it is purchased is must be relogged into the FFL's Bound Book and treated as a separate transaction and as such is subjest to all rules and regulations regarding subsequent transactions.

Having wporked in Pawn Shops Ihave seen gums that have gone "through the books" 30 or 40 times. which means there are 30 or 40 form 4473 for that particular gun. And don't be surprised when you friendly local AFT agent, in the course of their semi-regular random inspection, asks to see each and every one of them. If it's in "Your Book" 37 times to an individual, there had damn well better be 37 4473s in your files. And they'd all better be filled out properly.

Been there. Done that.

Final update:

Picked up the PM9 from the place where purchased; lo and behold- Kahr replaced it with a new gun, one extra 6 round mag- and night sights. :D Three dot Meps, to be precise.

Cleaned and lubed it, left it somewhat "wet" for the recommended break-in of 200 rounds. Took it to the range and shot the snot out of it. 265 rounds total. 200 WWB 115 gr, 40 Corbon 115 gr.+P that I have had laying around for 10 or so years, 25 Speer Gold Dot 124 gr.+P. Gun ran like a champ, not one malf, and surprisingly soft shooting, especially for its size. Figured very soon, I could trust my life to it.


Got it home, proceeded to strip it for cleaning and lube, and..............the retaining piece that holds the double recoil spring (the part of the recoil assembly that fits flush with the muzzle) had shot off somewhere during those 265 rounds.


I love this little gun, but it's a heartbreaker. I'll call Kahr on Monday and find out if they can ship that little piece or whether or not I need an entire new recoil spring assembly.


Can't wait to get it "whole" again, although I would venture the gun is still shootable. Once this issue is resolved, and after another 150-200 rounds downrange, I'll feel good about it being my "always" gun.


FWIW- brought my Glock 23 home from the same range session, hit it with some GunScrubber, some CLP, and it's ready to rock, just like it has been for the last 10 years. It's boring- it just works. The PM9 needs a bit of patience.


Edit: called Kahr customer service- they overnighted a new recoil rod assembly. A happy eneding....

I think Blues Bear is right on the money (No destruction of forms, period). they must be retained.
Lee