[steelhead]

I never understood that expression. It is used quite frequently when people talk about what loads they use for self defense and especially in the lightweight and ultra lightweight designs.

For instance, a person buys a .357 and shoots .38's and is fine with the recoil. Then they shoot a .357 and exclaim that "it hurts" and "wow look at the flash". As a result, they plan to carry the load because it packs a wallop but also not shoot it a lot because it packs a wallop :confused: . Why? POI, recoil, and flash are all going to be different with the varied loads. Do people think that somehow their firearm skills are going to get suddenly better when it's crunch time? With the adrenaline flowing, I would think you would want every advantage you could get. Using ammo that you are normally adverse to using doesn't sound like any advantage to me.

I am not saying that shooting milder rounds is wrong as it helps develop your shooting skills and is usually cheaper as well. BUT, I believe a carry round needs to be shot a lot to "get a feel" for what it and you can do. If the hotter loads don't work for someone during a practice session - then maybe they should stick with the milder stuff, for self defense, and as a result be better armed. Rule #1: only rounds that hit count.

Agree? Disagree? Ambivalent?

[pax]

The thought is that under adrenal stress, you aren't going to notice either the recoil or the flash. Because the human body is stronger when adrenalin courses through the system, it won't be any big deal to control the recoil, and because you'll have more important things to worry about than a slap in the palm, you won't really feel the kick anyway.

Makes sense to me.

That said, my practice rounds are as close to my carry rounds as I can get them. The bit about POI changing was the deciding factor for me.

But if I were particularly succeptible to stiff recoil (arthritis, perhaps) then I wouldn't worry too much about changing loads. For people sensitive to recoil, it probably boils down to a choice between practicing a lot with a different ammunition, or practicing very little because it's uncomfortable to do so.

pax

[ClarkEMyers]

Makes sense to me to shoot a steel gun and carry a lightweight too. Especially lightweight and all steel J-frames in years past.

[c22m22c]

i own 9's. i shoot 9's. i carry hydro-shocks. i shoot WWB. i can feel a difference in the recoil between the two. i just shoot one for practice since its cheaper. but i can control them both equally well.

so i agree with you. shoot what you carry. its good sense. it would be like going to the range, and renting your carry gun, and shooting it. so you don't wear yours out, or anything.

my .02.

[Bob79]

I agree with you to an extent. I do think you should be able to shoot your carry round well. I have a 342 Smith (airlite) and I shoot about 65-75% .38 special practice and the rest with the +P ammo. I think that as long as you shoot "some" of your carry ammo, and are able to control, thats OK. But if try out some ammo at the range and you can't shoot worth a cr** with it, then you shouldn't carry it.

[shermacman]

I can see both sides, even though I don't want to! I would never rely on a carry gun that I didn't fire often. I want to know the recoil and handling with what ever type of loads I was using. And I know from my S&W .357 that the hotter, faster loads hit higher at 50 yards than the .38 rounds.

That having been said, I would use any gun in an emergency. I also suspect that in an emergency I wouldn't be lining up 50 yard shots!

[c22m22c]

precisely.

[kimbernut]

I understand and agree with what you are saying but what better description can you give than "carried a lot ,shot a little" on a handgun that's carried 24/7 or 16/7 and fired once or twice a month 24-100 rounds?

[Ankeny]

Carried a lot shot a little was pretty common terminology back when a Smith Model 19 was such a popular duty revolver. Folks just didn't want to destroy the gun through a steady diet of magnum loads.

I recently dropped back to a 9mm from a lightweight .45 because I am not willing to give up anything in the way of firearms proficiency for that extra punch. I know folks carrying Ultra Light Weight any Brand Subcompact .45's loaded with 230 whomp-em-stomp-em loads that they can't shoot nearly as well as a lighter load or heavier gun. I guess they figure when SHTF the laws of physics will vanish.

[carebear]

I guess they figure when SHTF the laws of physics will vanish.

That's generalizing a bit. I think it's more that some of the physiological reactions to the physics will become unnoticeable.

It is common for people in a real shooting to remark that under stress they didn't notice the flash or recoil of the weapon they were firing.

If the whole "muscle memory" concept is valid, they are going to shoot proportionately to the level at which they trained on gross motor skills. The comparative change in reaction to a perceived increased or decreased recoil and flash is what goes away.

I'd be more concerned with the change in POI if I had to make a tricky, thought-out shot.

[treeprof]

If you're a gun rag, copy like that in a review article helps to sell your advertisers' painful-to-shoot micro magnums.

[Yooper]

I agree with carebear and the others, the laws of perception change under stress rather than the laws of physics. I am never as aware of recoil when shooting at game as I am when sighting in my firearms. As an aside, a perception-altered adversary is probably just as unaware of "punch" as you are.

[c22m22c]

good point. those "hyped up" adversaries...will often be alive and kicking after some serious metal. be prepared to destroy their bodies to save yours.

[steelhead]

I can see and understand that you won't notice the flash and recoil while under stress and at close contact POI won't matter as much. I also agree that many times a defensive firearm is carried more than shot (exception being that it is shot enough to have fluency).

I should have clarified, that the statement, to me, is out of place when it is used in the context of ammo selection. I don't get the feeling that the same level of thought or understanding is in their decesion making process (unlike many here who have thought about it and what the +'s and -'s are in doing so).


I still personally feel you need to shoot a lot of your carry ammo for both practice and as a reliability test. If economics are a problem, then shoot a load that is close as possible to your carry.

I don't know, maybe I'm just having a Monday on a Thursday but it just struck me similar to people saying clips and magazines in the same context.

[TrapperReady]

I'm not big into pistol shooting. However, I shoot thousands upon thousands of shotgun shells per year. The majority are target loads, which I keep as light as possible. However, I also hunt quite a bit and often shoot much "bigger" loads when shooting at game.

For example, a standard target load I use is a 2 3/4" shell, with 1 ounce of shot, moving at moderate velocity. A hunting load would often be a high-velocity 3" magnum shell with 1 3/8 oz of shot. If I'm at the patterning board, the difference is immense. If I'm shooting at a passing duck, I can fire three of the shoulder pounders and not even notice the recoil.

Translating it into pistols, I can see where shooting a steady diet of full-house .357 loads could be punishing and would limit the amount you shoot in a range session. It could, over time, indtroduce a flinch or other bad habits/reactions. Lighter loads would allow for more shooting with less cummulative fatigue.

Just make sure that you do get some practice with whatever your carry load is. For example, in a range session, I might shoot a couple boxes of WWB, and then put one or two magazines full of Gold-Dots or HydraShoks downrange at the end. That way, I get a fair amount of shooting done... but I'm still able to practice with my chosen defensive load. It also makes sure that I periodically cycle the ammo in the gun.

[BigG]

It is common for people in a real shooting to remark that under stress they didn't notice the flash or recoil of the weapon they were firing.


Not only that, it's common that they don't even realize they shot the gun. Many cops, who are trained to notice things) have unloaded high capacity nines without realizing they pulled the trigger more than once, but there is a pile of brass and many holes in the shootee to prove by. Adrenaline does funny things. :eek:

[Standing Wolf]

...if I were particularly succeptible to stiff recoil (arthritis, perhaps) then I wouldn't worry too much about changing loads.

Speaking strictly as someone with arthritis—or "Arthur Itis," as lots of us say here in Colorado—I think it's not a good idea to carry the heavy stuff and practice with the light stuff. I normally shoot .44 special target loads in .44 magnum cartridges, for example, but make sure I always practice with full house loads, partly to be sure I can still handle them, partly to be sure I can still shoot them accurately.

If the day comes when I can't still handle the full house loads, I'll feel morally obliged to lighten my carry ammunition. Accuracy is everything in a carry gun.

[Ankeny]

Standing Wolf:

Good old arthritis and tendonitis is what prompted me to switch to a 9mm. I can still shoot a lightweight commander sized gun with 230 Golden Sabers really well, but I can shoot the 9mm even better. I don't see any point in giving up shooting proficiency for a heavier load. I guess it's a personal choice. Afterall, if I shoot a BG a half a dozen times COM faster than I shoot him 4 times all over the place, I figure the smaller caliber will work out just fine.

[driven]

Most folks who have shot at game animals or been in a fire fight with tell you that the noise and recoil of the gun becomes secondary to the task at hand (myself included). The gun still kicks as hard and is as loud as it was before, it's just that your brain and body decide not to notice it as much. To that end, I feel comfortable with not running a lot of hot ammo through my lightwieght auto or revolver just so I get range time. I'll use something similar that is made of steel to take the high round count.

On the other hand, I can tell you that the muzzle of a .22 auto looks HUGE when pointed at you in an unfriendly way. :)

[Vern Humphrey]

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Most folks who have shot at game animals or been in a fire fight with tell you that the noise and recoil of the gun becomes secondary to the task at hand (myself included).
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There are two problems with this idea.

The first is that you have to do a pretty fair amount of shooting to be a good shot -- especially when you need to react quickly in a life-threatening situation. And people with hard-kicking guns rarely shoot them enough. In the real world, I have seen a lot of people miss easy shots -- often because they were scared of the gun they were using.

The second is that recoil is real. And it affects controlability. Very few people would choose a single-shot pistol for self defense, but many people choose guns that are so hard to control in rapid fire that they might as well have a single shot -- the chance of getting of a second aimed shot is so small.

[BigG]

I think there is a misunderstanding going on here; carried much and shot little refers to the little alloy j-frames that are worn as much as a badge of honor or jewelry by police chiefs, etc. Those guns were never designed to take a high round count, imho. They are a last line of defense and it is assumed (rightly or wrongly) the guy already knows how to shoot, having come up through the ranks.

Of course, this pre-dates the recent explosion in small pocket sized ordnance, but they ought to coin a new term rather than morphing the old one. JMTC, YMMV, etc.

And I will always say, a snub anything takes a seasoned operator - it should not be your first experience at shooting a major caliber handgun no matter how cute they look. ;)

[Vern Humphrey]

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And I will always say, a snub anything takes a seasoned operator - it should not be your first experience at shooting a major caliber handgun no matter how cute they look.
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Amen.

Of course that brings us back to the point -- guns are made for shooting. Guns are carried concealed because you might have to use them to save your life. Given the difficulty of shooting a snubby fast and accurately under pressure, you should practice a lot.

That's why I like my old Detective Special -- I can put a lot of .38 Specials through it with no pain, and without developing any bad habits.

[Majic]

Though the adreneline will cause you to not notice the recoil it won't improve your shooting. The muzzle will still rise just as high causing a slower second shot. The hand won't be as steady insuring a hit on the first shot.
Carried a lot and shot very little seems to mean possibly not hitting very often. You can crank the rounds out at a fast rate, but do you actually hit what you are aiming at? Rather than hoping this phenomenom will occur I would much rather go with what I know because of practice. Carry what you shoot enough to know what it will do then constantly practice with it using the same power level of ammo. When the SHTF is not the time to try out theories.

[XLMiguel]

"Carried a lot, shot a little" mostly applies to police trade-ins, as in carried every day, shot tice a year . . . the conventional wisdom around here is that most cops aren't gun people, so although they carry every day, they only shoot as often as necessary to qualify (plus what ever practrice before hand).

YMMV

[driven]

There's no arguing that a gun that's light weight and has a short barrel is more difficult to shoot than the same design that is heavier and has a longer tube. The person relying on the smaller gun had better be aware of the compromises they have made in selecting it, and best practice with it enough to be confident in use. If someone isn't comfortable shooting the smaller gun with their chosen defense load, they should make another selection (in either gun or ammo) when it comes to defending life and limb. IMHO, I think you can do the majority of your practice with the larger gun, given that you have shown you are able to competantly use your "pocket rocket".

Is carrying the smaller gun a trade off of convienience to effectiveness? You betcha!

[Double Naught Spy]

POI, recoil, and flash are all going to be different with the varied loads.

While this may be true, POA and POI differences between .38 spl and .357 are going to be of no consequence at typical civilian self defense shooting distances.

[P0832177]

The old days had the Star PD as the gun to shot little and carried a lot!
I think the most important aspect is getting trigger time. In the course of real world situations where there is a super charged body it can adapt. But, as been proven time and time again. Make the most of practice and practice as if you were on the street! No time for policing brass or anything! Assess, Shoot, Move, Reassess! Reload as necessary!

[Vern Humphrey]

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Is carrying the smaller gun a trade off of convienience to effectiveness? You betcha!
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When my daughter needed a carry pistol, I got her a Ruger SP101 with the 3 1/16" barrel. That gun, while small and compact, has enough weight to handle recoil, the grips are well-designed, and the slightly longer barrel makes it much easier to shoot accurately.

[riverdog]

I've always thought of "carried a lot, shot very little" to mean a gun that lots of holster wear but has seen little range time. Something like my Mod 19 (Border Patrol turn-in); blueing is really worn but the forcing cone is still sharp, the cylinder lock-up tight and it has a really nice trigger. That may mean that it's shot lots of .38 Spl wc target loads.

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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I've always thought of "carried a lot, shot very little" to mean a gun that lots of holster wear but has seen little range time. Something like my Mod 19 (Border Patrol turn-in); blueing is really worn but the forcing cone is still sharp, the cylinder lock-up tight and it has a really nice trigger. That may mean that it's shot lots of .38 Spl wc target loads.
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"Carr(ied) a lot, sho(o)t very little" is both a condition (as in your Mod 19) and a philosophy. In the case of your gun, you get a revolver in great condition with little wear.

In the case of the philosophy, it means choosing a weapon because it's convenient to carry, not because it's effective when shot. S&W chose the name "Chief Special" for a small, snubby which exemplifies this philosophy. The Chief isn't expected to get into shootouts in the steet, go charging through doors in dynamic entries, and so on. He carries his gun as a sort of badge (if you don't carry a gun, you ain't a cop) and a little gun will do as well as a bigger one, and is a lot more convenient when you spend most of your time at a desk.