I am looking to buy (spec. order if I have to) a Remmy 870 Police Magnum w/ the bead-sight 18" CYL barrel, 5+1 capacity (no +2 added), parkarized finish, and oiled walnut furnature (and steel trigger guard, better tempered internals, etc.)
Now...I'm a little confused since I have seen shottys like this with the "5023" model number on their boxes, but Remmy's LE webpage has this model listed as a #4901.
Now, is one of these codes for the "magnum" model and the other one for the "2-3/4 only" one? Or what???
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January 13, 2005, 07:47 PM
Remington has recently changed up on options and model numbers.
Some changes that caused model number changes was a switch to Speedfeed stocks in the synthetic line, and the change to the new "R3" recoil pad.
Since the 5023 is no longer listed, I'm guessing that's a model that has been replaced by another, newer model with some slight change.
If the 5023 versus 4901 situation still bothers you, I'd recommend contacting Remington LE to find out what the change was.
I bet the "Big change" was a change from the standard rubber recoil pad to the new R3 recoil pad.
In any event, the current model you want is the 4901.
Some things about your post:
Remington hasen't made 2 3/4" Police guns for some years. ALL Remington Police guns are now 3", and have been for quite some time.
Second, Remington makes the cheaper Express model with plastic trigger guards.
The more expensive Wingmaster AND the Police model are aluminum.
Remington has never made the 870 with a steel trigger guard.
Third, unless special ordered, all Police guns come in Improved Cylinder bore, NOT Cylinder.
Last, the 870 standard magazine capacity is 4+1, NOT 5+1.
January 13, 2005, 07:55 PM
Thanks!!! I should have known better than to have wrote CYL instead of IC, and your aluminum vs. steel & 3" points are well taken and both sounded familiar once I read it. As to the 5+1 vs. 4+1 capacity, I saw on a picture of a box end of a #5023 shotty on Gunbroker (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=27664230) that stated it was a "5+1" and it didn't have the "+2" tube (making it a 7+1). <--- I was wrong, it's a 4+1. My Benelli M1-S90 tactical's base capacity was 5+1 as well. Maybe the LE 870 SGs have a standard capacity of 1rd higher than the normal ones. Anyway, I will order the 4901 with the hope it has the new recoil pad.
January 13, 2005, 08:36 PM
If you ever get on I-20 to Columbia, SC, we have a Remington LE store here. You may be able to look at what you want. :)
January 13, 2005, 08:48 PM
as dfariswheel stated, the standard mag tube 870s are 4+1 NOT 5+1. even the LE police models. i have the model you are looking for, only i bought it with synthetic and bought the oiled walnut after the fact.
couldn't be happier with mine
January 13, 2005, 10:23 PM
Thanks guys...I must be blind today. :rolleyes:
Hmm...driving to SC does sound like a great idea...if I can ait long enought for me to find time to get away. :)
January 15, 2005, 08:54 PM
Lawmen's here in Columbia is a good place to shop. However, any stocking Remington dealer can order law enforcement models. And, as long as they are within legal limits, you, as a civilian can purchase them. I got Shooter's Choice (also in Columbia) to order mine. I got the one you want except in synthetic and I then added the R3 recoil pad, a Scattergun Technologies +2 magazine extension and some other odds and ends. Here is a compilation of the differences in the Police Model 870 and the 870 Express.
The Police Magnum has a parkerized finish on all parts where the Express uses a bead-blasted blue finish. The Police Magnum does not have dimples in the magazine tube to "prevent" the owner from installing a magazine extension. The Police Magnum does not have a J-Lock on the safety. The Police Magnum has an aluminum trigger guard where the Express uses plastic. The Police Magnum is final fitted by hand and the Express is machine fitted. The Police Magnum also has heavier springs (7 lb. sear disconnect spring versus the
Express's 5 lb. disconnect spring). The Police Magnum has a 22 inch
magazine spring versus a 16 inch magazine spring in the Express. The Police Magnum comes with a heavier lifter spring. The Police Magnum comes with front and rear sling swivel studs. The Police Magnum has a shorter, horizontally ribbed (not checkered) foregrip. The Police Magnum uses a bar-stock milled extractor where the Express uses an MIM extractor. The Police Magnum also uses a thicker barrel than the 18" Express or Home Defense.
A big plus to the 870 line compared to Mossberg and Winchester is that Remington uses a steel framed, forged and milled shotgun while Mossberg and Winchester's are cast aluminum.
January 16, 2005, 11:03 AM
What are the diff's between the express and wingmaster receivers? Are the Wingmaster receivers milled? (then blued) Are they hand fitted too?
January 16, 2005, 01:08 PM
Remington uses the same receivers for all their shotguns.
These receivers are forged and milled.
The only difference between guns is, the Express has a bead blasted blue job, the Wingmaster has polished blue, and the Police is parkerized.
The Wingmaster and Police are better finished guns with few burrs or machine marks inside or out.
The Express is a much rough finished gun, with obvious machining marks and a rougher exterior and interior with more burrs present.
January 16, 2005, 01:54 PM
Got it. I miss-read the part where Sulaco stated that "The Police Magnum uses a bar-stock milled extractor where the Express uses an MIM extractor..."
From what I gather, the "Police" models are akin to wingmasters with park finish (meaning that they have better internals)? ...or are new wingmasters coming with plastic trigger guards and MIM extractors?
January 16, 2005, 07:37 PM
The Wingmaster and the Police are the same gun with different cosmetic finishes.
The Express is Remington's "budget" gun made to compete with Winchester and Mossberg's much cheaper to make, cast aluminum receivers and stamped internal guns.
Here's an old post of mine listing the differences between the top-of-the-line Wingmaster/Police and the budget Express line:
The Wingmaster Sporting gun has:
Aluminum trigger group.
A smooth, commercial grade polished blue finish.
A smooth, polished bore.
All milled parts.
Walnut stock with better checkering, and Remington's "Bowling pin finish".
A chrome plated bolt.
Old style magazine retention assembly.
One piece barrel.
The 870 Police is basically a dull finish Wingmaster.
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
Choices in different stocks, including Speed-feed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Express Model has:
A plastic trigger group.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style magazine retention system.
A rougher finish inside and outside.
A rougher blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Hardwood or synthetic stock.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.
January 16, 2005, 07:45 PM
January 16, 2005, 08:18 PM
one more thing...
Are the "special purpose" shotguns just re-badged express guns or do they have other featured from the wingmaster/police line?
I'd like to pick up an 870 police and then a 28"vent rib barrel for it....and I see thay big green make an express, spec. purpose, and wingmaster barrel in this length. What are the differences and would the "spec. purpose" barrel match an 870P better than an express barrel? Alternatively, should I look for a used 28" wingmaster barrel and have it parkarized?
Then again...maybe I should get the walnut/blued 870 Police (#4899) and a 28" wingmaster barrel.... Hmmm...I do like the sound of that...
January 16, 2005, 09:18 PM
don't know about the SP bbls, but i'm sure someone can help. i think as dfaris stated above that the wingmaster bbls have a nicer bore.
i've been keeping my eye out for a 26" or 28" remchoke bbl to have parked as well. thought about threading the 18" for chokes too.
January 16, 2005, 09:36 PM
how much is it to have a barrel threaded for rem chokes?
I'm starting to picture a 20" 870P (walnut/parkarized, #4897) with a rem-choke threaded bead-sight barrel... Now THAT might just become my new "do it all shotgun" if I can have the choke threading done reasonably. Would this be something to attemp to spec. order from big green or have done after purchace?
Then again, I still have a hankering for a blued gun...and a walnut/blued 870 Police (#4899) plus a rem-choked VR 28" wingmaster barrel would be very nice too....
Thanks for the continued input.
January 16, 2005, 11:08 PM
The SPS or Special Purpose is nothing more than a sporting gun with a tougher, duller finish for harsh condition hunting.
Looks like most current SPS guns are in Camo.
In past years they had parkerized finishes and better sealed walnut stocks, or synthetic stocks.
The older Special Purpose guns were based on the Wingmaster.
I don't know whether Remington is basing the current guns on the Wingmaster or the Express, but considering the history of the Special Purpose as a top-of-the-line gun with a heavy-duty finish, I'd bet it's still based on the high grade Wingmaster.
Cost of installing a screw-in choke system depends on who's doing it.
A watch-out is, make SURE whoever does it has a good reputation.
This is one of those jobs that can be botched without too much trouble, and you wind up with a barrel that points one place, and puts the shot in another.
Quality-wise the Remington custom shop is excellent. I don't know about pricing.
Remington has an really great question system on their web site.
Email them and ask:
January 16, 2005, 11:14 PM
Thanks DFW. I just sent them an email.
January 17, 2005, 06:09 AM
Also check prices at http://www.colonialarms.com/serv.html . They have done a lot of good work for me over the years.
While you are getting choke tubes put in, have whoever does it extend the forcing cone too.
I have had tubes put in several 18" and 20" barrels that were originally cylinder bore, it has worked well for me. Now that Remington has started issuing all their short barrels with IC chokes I don't bother any more, the IC does well enough and saves about $70 too, by avoiding having choke tubes installed.
January 17, 2005, 09:29 AM
Do both of you think a 20" IC barrel would work well for most upland birds? How about at 25-30 yds? Anyone pattern one of these at a range? I've used a mod choke in my 26" 20ga in the past with good success.
January 17, 2005, 10:39 AM
I've done good upland work with several cylinder bore shotguns, and may indeed do it again. Keep the shots within 30 yards and use top ammo like a trap load of 7 1/2s. Good close working dogs are nigh essential also.
And like Lee, if a short barrel is IC, you're set. If I were confined to one choke for over the dog bird shooting, it'd be IC and I'd use ammo selection for different ranges. Cheap 8s work well on quail in the brush or for the first shot, trap loads of 7 1/2s backing it up.
January 17, 2005, 11:17 AM
Thank you very much.
Now, on to one more issue... ;)
I understand that the 870P has a heavier trigger pull than the sporting express & wingmaster guns. I am leaning towards getting a 20" bead sight 870P for "all purpose use" but I was wondering if its heavier trigger pull would be a problem. Now, I am mostly familiar with precision rifle and pistol shooting and I know that trigger work is different in that ballgame (squeeze vs. slap), so should I be concerned? Also, if so, how difficult is it to keep the higher-grade internals in the 870P but tune them to lighten the pull?
Finally, I will probably not bother with an extended mag tube on my 20" 870P, but would a +2 or even the +3 that is available with it provide the same "swing inertia" effects as a longer barrel? If so, it seems that having the extension (while unsightly on a bird gun IMO) might be the way to go...heck, it would make it look like a O/A from a distance... ;)
Finally, about how much does lengthening one's forcing cone normally cost and is this a job for a local 'smithy or should I send it to ______________ (insert favorite place)?
January 17, 2005, 01:00 PM
My original 870 was (still is) a police trade-in with a 20" bead sighted CYL barrel. It did almost _too_ well on flushing quail over a dog- they didn't have a chance, hardly. I also used an old ex-GI Savage 720 riot gun with an 18" CYL bore that my grandfather had bought surplus, same deal only moreso, I only took that one out once. See http://ugca.org/03mar/savage.htm for more info on that one, as much collector interest as there is in those now it won't be afield any more.
The IC choke will give you a bit more range, a bit tighter patterns and a great deal more overall versatility. I like the fixed choke idea better for a working (HD/security/serious/social/tactical whatever) shotgun, and the IC is no disadvantage unless you want to tweak absolute maximum performance out of long range buckshot loads or hunt turkeys. With the relatively new Hevi-Shot buckshot there isn't much need for tweaking and a fixed choke is a better option for shooting it IMHO. For turkeys, choke tubes are the way to go. There is no real disadvantage to a shorter barrel for a practiced wingshooter, especially on upland game, so the 20" barrel should be no problem.
The last- well, let's say most recent 'cause it won't likely be the last- Cinderella 870 (used, that is) I bought off the rack was an Express Turkey Gun with a 21" vent rib barrel and twin beads, set up from the factory for RemChoke tubes. If I were limited to a one gun/one barrel deal, this would be it, especially if I could get an assortment of tubes. It seems to me the best compromise overall. The fact this one was $145 out the door, with a set of aftermarket sling swivels installed, certainly didn't hurt my feelings either. It was one of the older Express guns, no dimples in the magazine tube and an aluminum trigger plate. Looked as if the previous owner used a lot of bug repellent or the like while hunting the big birds, the stock finish was dissolved wherever hands had touched the wood, it was ugly and sold cheap but it was mechanically solid as a rock.
I wouldn't worry too much about _having_ to have police gun, there really honestly isn't that much difference (except price, if you buy new). A good used Wingmaster and a spare barrel won't likely cost any more than a new 870P, given judicious shopping, and it should cost even less for a good used Express gun of the older (pre-dimple, pre-plastic trigger plate) vintage. The only marked 870P I have was bought used (as a retirement present to self a few months ago) as a PD turn-in and you are right, it has a noticably heavier trigger pull. It is going to get tuned eventually, but my wizard will get that task, it's not a DIY job, IMO.
I got the forcing cone done in the retired 870P (18" IC bead sighted barrel, factory magazine extension, blue/walnut) at Colonial while I was home near Selma, AL for the week of Christmas, cost $45 and Red Lyles got it done for me while I was running errands in town. Dunno how much you can get it done for other places.
January 17, 2005, 02:02 PM
Thanks guys, but now I've been looking at the specs on an older (black) 870 SPS Turkey w/ the 21" vent-rib rem choke barrel... It looks "perfect" if it is based on the wingmaster series... Or perhaps the super mag Turkey (albiet express) w/ a 23" VR rem choke barrel... **as a side note, I just sold my Benelli M1-S90 tactical to get an 870. That should tell you what a fan of pump guns I am. :cool:
Now, does anyone see where I can order just the 21" 870 VR rem-choke barrel for the 870??? I tried remmys website but didn't see them. I think one of these, parkarized, and then mated to a 870P would be just about perfect.
Damn... why can't I just slap down some greenbacks on a 20" blued 870P and be done with it. :) I just wish Remmy made a blued 23" VR rem choke barrel.
Finally (as if I needed to ask any more questions), are the new wingmasters "just as good" as the old ones in terms of QC and such? Perhaps I would be best served to just get a new 26" 12ga wingmaster and be done with it....
January 17, 2005, 03:06 PM
Ok...been pouring over the archive and using the search function here and elsewhere. (this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=19329&highlight=fixed) in particular was very helpfull.) It seems I might be best served to find an older 870 wingmaster (police or standard). Whether it comes with an 18" police barrel or a 30" full or Mod barrel, I should be able to find the other if needed. Interestingly, I saw a poorly cared for 30" full WM sitting on the used rack locally on my way home today. It was listed at $350 and that is more that I want to pay for a used SG in that condition. That said, perhaps a nice old fixed-full choke 30" WM and a spare short 18" "social" barrel would be the better deal all-around.
My main concerns are QC, ability to shoot 2-3/4 & 3" (no 3.5"), utility (I break some informal clays, hunt phesant, grouse, quail, and other birds (no waterfowl...yet), and like the timeless beauty of rich bluing and well-figured walnut. Park guns have their place and I own many, but the more thought I put into this next purchace, the more I lean towards an older WM.
- please, no kerry flip-flop jokes... ;)
January 17, 2005, 03:30 PM
Would a WM with serial number SER# 535619xx be mid '80's or mid '90s?
January 18, 2005, 06:36 AM
Call 800-243-9700, Remington's help line and give them the serial number. They'll nail down the date to the month.
See other thread about my impressions of a new WM. All in all, good shotgun. Big Green's QC seems hit or miss, but they still make good pumps.
IMO, 23" is about optimum for a do it all barrel. I'd like to see one myself for an Upland Special clone.
Prices on older WMs have risen steeply. We may be to blame in part. Singing the praises of fine older shotguns may be ultimately responsible for us not being able to buy more of them.
January 18, 2005, 10:44 AM
Go ahead and get what you think will work, just to start with. Chances are pretty good you will change your mind regarding what you really want once you get some trigger time on whatever 870 you start with. That is not a poke at you or your thread, or an attempted insult, I mean it sincerely and I pretty much know the feeling myself. I have been mixing and matching with 870s for about 30 years now and am still playing with them. You can buy, sell, swap and trade till you get exactly what suits you, and if you shop and trade carefully you will never lose a dime in the process.
I tell people often to try whatever it is they are thinking about 'in the flesh' to see if they really like it- sometimes you have to buy it to try it, but if you can get hands on one belonging to a friend you are that much better off. With 870s their modular nature and wide variety of barrels and accessories make it possible to get pretty much whatever you want. But it is ice to be able to 'try before you buy' and shooting friends' or acquaintances' guns will let you do that.
Friend Dave McC has another saying, that 870s may not reproduce but they DO multiply. It seems that way. Once you get started you always seem to run across a bargain on this gun or that barrel or some other accessory item. You get exposed to ideas you never thought about and some of them you will want to try. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the process as long as you are _shooting_ whatever it is you are experimenting with.
Since the 'tacticool shotgun' became popular I see more and more folk who simply MUST have their gun "finished" with all the accessories and bolt-ons and gunsmithing in place before they will even fire a single round out of it. I secretly wonder if even then some of these folk actually shoot them, once they get everything they want bolted on. It's a mystery to me, for sure, since to me a shotgun has always been the most utilitarian of guns, the gun everyone had one of, the gun everybody used.
I know how much fun the anticipation of a new project is, believe me. But don't let that stand in the way of accomplishing the project. Nothing says you have to get it absolutely perfect the first time out the gate.
January 18, 2005, 02:15 PM
So....how's THIS (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=27821254) for a start??? (Stole it, didn't I?) :evil:
Now I'm on the prowl for a nice 870P, on which I will put a 21" VR rem-choke turkey barrel for all-purpose HD/SG/Turkey/etc...
Now...where's that self-absorbed giddy smiliey at? :cool:
January 18, 2005, 03:05 PM
Looks just like Number Six, and that's a good thing. Congrats and kudoes!!
As was stated, 870s do not reproduce but they tend to multiply. Comfort yourself(and maybe your spouse) with the idea that one can assemble a pile of 870s, suitable for any activity, for less than a used Perazzi or Krieghoff.
Let us know how it shoots.....
January 18, 2005, 03:20 PM
Thanks Dave. My original plan was to sell off my M1-s90 tactical w/ it's spare 28" barrel (recently sold it for $900 and change) and get a pump gun or three. Now that I have this one, I will look to spend the next $400-$500 on a 870 police/frankenstein gun. I will probably find a used parkarized 870 police and a 21" rem-choked VR baarrel (and have it parkarized if needed). Two guns, many uses. Thanks for your help (all of you AND the search function).
January 18, 2005, 03:21 PM
870s are not an addiction - just a way of life.
January 18, 2005, 04:59 PM
That one looks nice. Let us know how it shoots!
No need to pay new retail price for the Police gun. Was gonna suggest you get in touch with our own sgtb re. a LEO trade-in, but I see you did that a couple hours ago. I got my 870P from him, it's a 1989 vintage blued/walnut/18" bead/factory mag extension model that is in great shape, and cost over a hundred bucks less than new.
And there should be 18- 20" barrels for that nice new old Wingmaster floating around, around a C-note or so should snag one. No reason that one can't do double duty too, I try to find a short barrel for every field gun I come home with, comes in handy to have an extra short barrelled shotgun (or a couple extra...) to issue out if someone's family needs babysitting or someone's property needs looking after (BTDT in both cases, too). That's one more reason I buy buckshot and slugs by the case, so there is enough on hand to issue out with the guns.
Congrats on the Wingmaster, hope you live long enough to wear it out!
January 18, 2005, 06:49 PM
Thanks Lee. I wasn't planning on getting a new one. Either SgtB or my local dealer (who apparently has some) will get my money ($250-300 or so of it anyway). The rest will go to misc. things like perhaps an extra barrel, refininsh on the stock, parkarizing an extra 21" rem-choke for the 870P, etc.
January 18, 2005, 07:50 PM
I have a Rem Mowhawk 48, 20ga 26" Imp Cylinder that I upland with while using 6 to 7 1/2", depending. I never go smaller (higher number). Pheasant 6 shot, quail 7 1/2. I also shoot dove with it using 6 shot.
I shoot as well with that little gun as I do with it's "special" brothers that cost more. Reminds me of bass fishing, I caught as many bass with my 16ft Tide Craft with stick steering and 60HP Evinrude than I do with my "had to have" Ranger and huge Merc. It sho look purdy though, sittin there. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
January 20, 2005, 08:20 AM
SO....does anyone know if the "Marine Magnum" is internally more like the police series or the express series? I assume it is basically a "police" 870 with an electroless nickel finish....correct?
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