Cmp M-14?


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tgimcnate1
January 15, 2005, 12:32 AM
Does anyone know if the Cmp will ever sell surplus M-14s? I would assume there would be quite a few in storage

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Kevlarman
January 15, 2005, 12:42 AM
Surplus assault rifles? That would be pretty cool. :D

Rebar
January 15, 2005, 12:45 AM
The answer has to be no, they're select fire weapons.

TexasRifleman
January 15, 2005, 12:46 AM
That's one of the first questions in the CMP FAQ section...

http://www.odcmp.com/faqs.htm



I can't imagine it ever happening.

RGO
January 15, 2005, 12:46 AM
They will not, because of ATF's "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" rule.

cracked butt
January 15, 2005, 12:51 AM
No.

tgimcnate1
January 15, 2005, 01:03 AM
Then what is the main difference between the civilian M-1a and the military M-14? Did all military service M-14s come with a selector switch? I thought most were issued as semiauto.

TexasRifleman
January 15, 2005, 01:06 AM
All the M1A's you see out in the civilian market use receivers made outside of the military contract. No M14 receivers ever made it to the marketplace for us.

They may use surplus parts for the remainder of the rifle, but the receivers are not surplus.

I got mine from Fulton Armory. They will build one with the selector switch, but it doesn't do anything but look "authentic" and makes a clicking sound :)

Quintin Likely
January 15, 2005, 09:23 AM
There was a petition floating around at one time, trying to coerce CMP into selling M14s with the selective fire stuff removed or disabled, but as others have pointed out, the ATF sez "once a machine gun, always a machine gun."

SapperLeader
January 15, 2005, 09:51 AM
Even besides the whole ATF issue of once a machinegun, the other problem is that most of the m14s sitting in surplus were destroyed, and the remainder are earmarked for US military use. It makes you want to weep, but we will never see CMP M14.

Swampy
January 15, 2005, 10:15 AM
tgim,

Never hap'n, Cap'n....

Besides being a machine gun under ATF regs...

The CMP does not get to decide what is "surplus"... the Army does. The CMP gets things only AFTER the Army decides the item in question is no longer needed.. i.e. "surplus to future US military needs".

... and now guess what....

After having most of the M14 production either given away to foreign countries, or having been sent to the cruncher by Slick Willy, the small remaining percentage of USGI M14 rifles that have languished in storage for 40 years are now in high demand by GI's and Marines over in the big sandbox. The Army is scrambling to get enough of these fine weapons into the hands of men who really NEED them... and the supply is way too short.

Don't hold your breath for the M14 to be declared "surplus" anytime soon.

Just my thoughts,

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever

Bwana John
January 15, 2005, 10:38 AM
The CMP was selling M-14 parts for a while. I got 3 parts kits (minus the barrel and stock) 4 years ago.

Swampy
January 15, 2005, 11:11 AM
The CMP was selling M-14 parts for a while. I got 3 parts kits (minus the barrel and stock) 4 years ago.

Yeah.... That was then... this is now. :(

Best,
Swampy

tgimcnate1
January 15, 2005, 12:24 PM
Ive read that by 1963 almost 1.4 million m-14s were made in the US. The production machinery was then sold to Taiwain, Known as the model 57 almost a million rifles were made before production stopped in the 1980s.I guess rifles given to our allies, or made in foriegn countries can not be brought in to the US because of certain laws.

Sleeping Dog
January 15, 2005, 03:01 PM
Most M14's never had a selector switch. I only saw one with full-auto capability, at a training area at Ft Polk, LA.

The sergeant had a few of us try it out. I didn't control it well, being a skinny private. It was great for laughs, almost as good as getting M14-thumb.

With practice, I'm sure we would have done better, but I think the demonstration was designed to "sell" the M16, much easier to control. After training, I got sent to Europe, where we were issued semi-auto M14's.

So, M14's that I saw without "the switch": thousands
With the switch: one.

Mostly, they were never machineguns.

Regards.

TexasRifleman
January 15, 2005, 03:04 PM
Correct. That whole "once a machine gun always....etc" thing again.
And, because there were so many made, the number of magazines available is staggering. So, if you do get an M1A obtaining mags is no problem.

There are some great M1A's out on the market and it's a great shooter.
I'm afraid there just aren't any bargains to be had like with the Garand.

Ammo is CHEAP CHEAP too, another reason to look into it.

And though the number that were select fire might be small, the receiver for both is identical. That's the part that kills us. An issue semi M14 is easily made full auto.

That's the reason all of the M1A makers have to machine their own receivers, and they are not quite identical to their M14 counterparts. It's a shame too,
these are such great guns.

falconer
January 15, 2005, 03:21 PM
And to make matters even more frustrating, the CMP actually gives out NM M14's with the selectors welded to various clubs to use for team rifles. So much for "once a machine gun, always a machine gun rule."

tgimcnate1
January 16, 2005, 02:03 PM
So what would be wrong with the CMP selling M-14s with the Selectors welded? I would'nt think it would be that big of a problem.

El Rojo
January 16, 2005, 02:20 PM
The BATFE classifies a firearm as "once a machine gun, always a machine gun." Therefore, they won't be authorizing their sale to the public. The same old silly laws we have been dealing with for 70 years.

Swampy
January 16, 2005, 02:26 PM
tgim wrote:

So what would be wrong with the CMP selling M-14s with the Selectors welded? I would'nt think it would be that big of a problem.

It makes NO difference whether the selector is welded or not. ANY, rpt. ANY USGI M14 receiver falls under the ATF's "Once a Machine Gun, Always a Machine Gun" rulings.

The CMP won't sell "machine guns" (if I'm not mistaken... I might be... I'm pretty certain that that's spelled out in the CMP's charter... i.e. No "machine gun" sales.).... and while I've not yet heard of this subject coming up anywhere, I'd strongly suspect that once some of the higher echelon QM types in the Army realize and remember that the CMP and many State Rifle associations have M14's in their target rifle programs, they are going to demand them BACK for front line service.

Just a guess here based on how things have been progressing... ;)

Just my thoughts,

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever

Feanaro
January 16, 2005, 02:40 PM
Welding the selectors isn't enough for the BATF. As I understand it, the receiver would have to be removed and a new one added.

tgimcnate1
January 16, 2005, 02:51 PM
with the reciever welded it would be impossible to convert back to select-fire,right?I guess just don't understand that part of the law

landon74
January 16, 2005, 04:40 PM
Not to be rude here TGI, but there isn't a plainer way to say what people have said a number of times..... It's not gonna happen, so save your money and buy a M-1A.....

Feanaro
January 16, 2005, 06:09 PM
The BATF, and the government in general, doesn't bother with trivial details like "logic" or "common sense". It makes no sense to me either but there it is.

TechBrute
January 16, 2005, 06:33 PM
I guess just don't understand that part of the law You're trying to apply logic when dealing with the ATF. Bad move. Don't try to understand it, and you'll sleep better at night.

Detritus
January 17, 2005, 12:31 AM
Mostly, they were never machineguns.

incorrect, ALL M-14 receivers were made with the ability to be a select fire weapon, the use of a "selector lock" (the piece that was fitted in leiu of a selector) on the receiver of a semi-only M-14 does not make that receiver "not/never a machine gun". it is capable of being a machine gun and was made for the US government, meaning it IS a machine gun by the pertinent laws.

as stated this is VERY unfortunate in it's consequences for those of us in the civilian world.

DF357
January 17, 2005, 03:18 PM
quote : "So, M14's that I saw without "the switch": thousands. With the switch: one."


My experience is the opposite. I never saw one without the switch. All thosed used in basic at Dix in '67 had them...never used it, but it was there.

dfariswheel
January 17, 2005, 03:36 PM
To make this crystal clear:

1. EVERY M-14 EVER made by the US government is a full auto weapon.
Most of them weren't fitted with the selector switch to permit full auto fire, but the conversion was a simple matter of installing the parts.

2. There were several methods of blocking the selector switch hole, including welding or fitting a Stellite bolt with a welded nut.
All of these methods CAN be defeated with relative ease and the weapon can be returned to full auto condition.

3. State rifle clubs were issued with blocked M-14 National Match rifles.
The State is responsible for the rifles, and they have strict rules about who gets a rifle, and are responsible for regularly inspecting them.
The DO NOT just hand them out to anyone.
Rifles are typically issued to members of the State Rifle club, and are STRICTLY for use in sanctioned rifle matches.

4. The ATF has long ruled that a weapon manufactured as a full auto weapon CANNOT be "unmade" into a semi auto weapon, no matter it's inability to fire full auto.
The "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" is not a suggestion, it's a matter of law.

5. Due to legal and political considerations, the Federal government will NEVER sell M-14 rifles to civilians...PERIOD........EXCEPT, back in the 1960's a VERY few National Match M-14's were sold to shooters at Camp Perry.
The sales were quickly suspended, but there are a very few legal National Match M-14's out there.

6. Most M-14's that are in civilian hands were sold or given to law enforcement, and were then sold to licensed machine gun dealers.
These hyper-expensive rifles sort of "fell through the cracks", but are legal to own.

7. "Why can't they weld up the selector, and sell the rifles to civilians"?
The instant the government did this, M-14 rifles converted BACK to full auto would immediately start turning up.
It isn't possible to permanently deactivate the full auto capability of a full auto weapon. It's not even possible to design a SEMI auto firearm that can't be converted to full auto.

The most famous case in point was Numrich Arms/Auto Ordnance's famous semi auto Thompson carbine.
When the 1927-A1 semi auto Thompson carbine was introduced in the early 1970's, George Numrich gave an interview in which he said that they had spent $100,00.00 designing a Thompson gun that COULD NOT be converted to fire full auto.
Within weeks of hitting the market, Shotgun News was full of ads selling info on how to convert the gun to your choice of open or closed bolt full auto.

Immediately upon receiving M-14's from the CMP, bad guys and just plain jerks would be converting the rifles back to full auto.

For these reasons, the Federal government will no more sell civilians M-14's than they would sell M2 carbines, M-16's, or BAR's.

AZ Jeff
January 17, 2005, 04:40 PM
The ATF issues are very well covered by the post from "dfariswheel", so the likelihood of them saying it's OK are slim.

Everyone dreaming of a CMP M14 is forgetting one key thing though: the Army NEEDS the M14's they have in inventory, and if they NEED them, they WON'T be selling them off via CMP, even if the ATF says it's OK.

Last I knew, there were somewhere LESS than 200K M14's left in US inventory. Now 200K rifles sounds like a lot, but MANY of those are no longer serviceable, and are being used as a source of spare parts to support those that are actually in the field.

Legal issues not withstanding, I don't see the Army deciding to "give away" any portion of it's remaining inventory of Designated Marksman rifles or parts thereof in the foreseeable future.

Go buy an M1A if you want an M14.

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