[alan]

Rick Stanley
Constitutional Activist
Phone: 303-329-0481
E-mail: rick@stanley2002.org


We the People Scoop 1/14/05 ** Special Edition **
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MEDIA RELEASE: US adopts National ID

http://www.prisonplanet.com/article...4nationalid.htm

US adopts National ID: Homeland Security Now In charge of Regulations for
all US States Drivers Licenses and Birth Certificates

Jonathan Wheeler | December 10 2004

In a chilling act more reminiscent of the now defunct Soviet Union or the
Nazi regime of Adolph Hitler, the United States Congress passed legislation
yesterday that requires the States to surrender their regulatory rights
over driver's licenses and birth certificates to The Department of Homeland
Security.

The massive US Intelligence Reform Bill weighed in at over 3,000 pages and
though unread by individual Members of either the House or Senate
nevertheless passed all of the legislative hurdles needed in order to
become law.

President Bush lobbied hard for these provisions, only objecting when
Senator Sensenbrenner attempted to require these same provisions for
illegal aliens but which the President opposed. This provision was dropped
from the final bill.

Beginning in 2005, the Department of Homeland Security will issue new
uniformity regulations to the States requiring that all Drivers Licenses
and Birth Certificates meet minimal Federal Standards with regard to US
citizen information, including biometric security provisions.

Added to currently existing Federal Laws and Supreme Court rulings American
citizens when born will be issued a Social Security Number that will be
included on their Birth Certificates, along with DNA biometric markers. All
birth certificates will also be registered in a Federal Government database
maintained by the Department of Homeland Security. No child will be allowed
enrollment to schools or be entitled to either State of Federal Government
benefits programs without first presenting a certified Homeland Security
registered Birth Certificate.

Drivers Licenses will also contain DNA biometric markers and include the
holders Social Security Number and be required for receiving and applying
for all State and Federal benefits programs. Previous Supreme Court rulings
have also upheld State and Federal Law Enforcement authorities right to
request Identification from any American citizen, for any reason and at any
time as not being violations of their, the citizens, constitutionally
protected rights.

Major Banks and credit card companies have applauded the adoption of a
National ID system as being important to counter fraud and increasing
instances of identity theft. National ID cards with biometric markers will
eliminate them from having to issue Credit and Debit cards, which for the
first time in US history have surpassed the usage of checks and cash.
Utilizing The Department of Homeland Securities centralized federal
database, Banks and credit card companies will only require the
presentation of a citizens Driver's License to make purchases as all of the
persons financial information, including credit and cash balances, will
already be known in 'real time'. (The combining of Homeland Security and
Banking databases on citizen's balances and purchases, along with their
past and present purchasing information, has been allowed under previous
Federal Laws including the Patriot Act.)

Also included in this bill is a law to require The Department of Homeland
Security to establish a separate ID system for citizens to use prior to
boarding airplanes, and which is eerily reminiscent of the Soviet and Nazi
regimes dreaded Internal Passport.

Never before in our history have the words of Benjamin Franklin been so
correct when he stated: "people willing to trade their freedom for
temporary security deserve neither and will lose both".

Today, December 9, 2004 will be one of those moments in time that future
historians will look back on and pin point as being the day that the United
States of American, and as it was founded by its forefathers, ceased to exist.

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Reply to: rick@stanley2002.org

[TheFederalistWeasel]

The road to hell is paved with the noblest of intentions

[River Wraith]

And we are on it, traveling fairly fast.

[LadySmith]

Creepy...very creepy.
But somehow I can't say I didn't see it coming.

[mbs357]

Well, I'm sure the country's going downhill now. >_<

[LawDog]

Hmm.

Do a THR search of 'Rick Stanley'.

Anything coming out of his piehole, I want independent verification of.

LawDog

[P95Carry]

Are there other sources that confirm this? :uhoh:

[xinul22]

during the days before the fall of the communist blocs, the East German secret police (the Stasi) kept detailed files and records of every East German citizen, including biometrics information such as saliva, fingerprints, hair samples, etc. They would surreptiously obtain them by going thru ppl's trash, keeping used utensils from public restaurants, etc.

same thing here except the US federal government is doing it more efficiently

[Kruzr]

From Ron Paul:
Paul Denounces National ID Card

December 7, 2004

Washington, DC- Congressman Ron Paul today denounced the national ID card provisions contained in the intelligence bill being voted on in the U.S. House of Representatives, while urging his colleagues to reject the bill and its new layers of needless bureaucracy.

“National ID cards are not proper in a free society,” Paul stated. “This is America, not Soviet Russia. The federal government should never be allowed to demand papers from American citizens, and it certainly has no constitutional authority to do so.”

“A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American,” Paul continued. “History shows that governments inevitably use such power in harmful ways. The 9-11 commission, whose recommendations underlie this bill, has called for internal screening points where identification will be demanded. Domestic travel restrictions are the hallmark of authoritarian states, not free nations. It is just a matter of time until those who refuse to carry the new licenses will be denied the ability to drive or board an airplane.”

“Nationalizing standards for drivers licenses and birth certificates, and linking them together via a national database, creates a national ID system pure and simple. Proponents of the national ID understand that the public remains wary of the scheme, so they attempt to claim they’re merely creating new standards for existing state IDs. Nonsense! This legislation imposes federal standards in a federal bill, and it creates a federalized ID regardless of whether the ID itself is still stamped with the name of your state.”

“Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken,” Paul concluded. “Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and screening points actually will make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans! Every conservative who believes in constitutional restraints on government should reject the authoritarian national ID card and the nonsensical intelligence bill itself.”

[The Rabbi]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050116/ap_on_re_us/national_id_card_8

Maybe people should read the above news story first before deciding we are living in the worst combo of Nazi Germany and Stalin's Gulag.
This is a proposal.
It requires a year and a half of discussion
States can opt out
There is no agreement on biometrics
It is probably unConstitutional since DLs are state-issued documents and it is up to states to set their own laws.
It will be expensive to implement, an argument states will use.

I have noticed that paranoia about the government shows a certain monotony, whether it comes from the Left or the Right.

[LadySmith]

I have noticed that paranoia about the government shows a certain monotony, whether it comes from the Left or the Right.
I don't think it's paranoia when we have a government that bears watching as closely as it would like to watch us. It's simply being vigilant.

[alan]

Rabbi:

Have you ever noticed how "the feds" persuade the states to "opt in" via the threat of withholding federal funds for this, that or some other thing?

I don't know if you have placed me on the Left or the Right, but the following comes to mind ether way. Government that does not trust it's citizens likely does not deserve the trust of it's citizens, and it matters not regarding whether any particular administration is Democratic or Republican.

Law Dog and P95Carry:

Without regard to Rick Stanley, the legislation has been passed, so far as I know. Stanley could be right, wrong or indifferent, that legislation has still been passed and signed.

[Luckyorwhat]

Wasn't it passed on the 24th of December 2004? I could swear I remember that. Also interesting is the passage of a similar scheme in Britain.

Food for thought for all those who support these cards, I will appeal to your sense of selfishness:

If a mugger wants your pin-number, what do you do? You give it to him. If a mugger wants your thumb-print, what do you do? Uh-huh, kiss that baby good-bye.

And furthermore, you'll never get away with anything, ever again. Getting away with stuff is part of being free. In East Germany almost every person ratted out someone, at some time, because they knew they couldn't get away with anything. BTW they kept clothing samples of 'trouble-makers' and packs of dogs to hunt down people down.

[Selfdfenz]

If you lost this card someplace me thinks you would officially and immediatley be SOL until you got it back or replaced it. Also, as I get older I have been known to forget things. Amazing I know, but true.

If I let my TX DL expire, is my Mark of the Beast Card invalid. By default are my other plastic fantastics dead temporarily, say like my debit card. That could make picking up a loaf of bread a real PITA.

If an officer stops me with a valid CHL in my wallet but my M-o-the-B card has expired can he arrest me for being an illegally armed non-person. Can he take my firearm on the spot. In TX you have to have a DL and a CHL and both have to be vaild to carry IIRC.

I know it's at the discussion stage now but I think this is a terrible idea in so many ways.

[The Rabbi]

I know it's at the discussion stage now but I think this is a terrible idea in so many ways.

I agree. Probably why I doubt it would happen. The bio stuff would just be way too expensive to implement. The economics of any situation will dictate the outcome.

[R.H. Lee]

Why don't they just tattoo barcodes on our foreheads and follow our movements with satellite based laser barcode readers?

Edit: Dumb idea, unless they outlawed ballcaps and cowboy hats.

[Selfdfenz]

The cost issue sure is a real one.
Not sure the retinal scans are cheap or not cheaps but one thing for sure...DNA on this scale will not be cheap. Actually none of it is worth a whoop if the partol car in the street doesn't have a retinal scanner on deck to make sure what's on the Beast cards matchs. Pretty penny that will cost.

I think the serfs could make a very strong claim that the same DNA technologies used for criminalistics testing and parenatge testing not be used for this system. If they decided to do that it would just be a naked step that the path being selected for us is one from serfdom to slavedom.

Sadly I'm not sure a sufficient number of my fellow Americanos are sharp enough to understand the issues and the downsides.

JM2cents

S-

[Deavis]

In TX you have to have a DL and a CHL and both have to be vaild to carry IIRC.

Only if you are driving do you need both. The CHL is the only document you need to carry in Texas, the lawbook in front of me doesn't mention the DL at all.

Selfdfenz-
Don't fool youself by thinking it is too expensive to be implemented. Used to be that searching a single set of fingerprints required a skilled operator spending minutes staring at cards. Now it is done in a fraction of the time it used to take with a computer. The only thing that is missing is demand, once it is there the products will emerge and eventually become dirt cheap.

Remember when 1MB of memory was over a grand? Remember when a DVD burner cost a couple grand? The computational power at our fingertips has made our research productivity, in last 50 years, look exponential compared to the rest of human history.

I'm not sure how much biology background you have but we are amazingly good at taking DNA apart and quickly analyzing it in a lab. We get better and better at it every single day. It will not be long before you see devices that can quickly pull your identity from a non-invasive test in the field. The process of unravelling and slicing DNA is well-known and continually being refined. As long as there is grant money out there for a project like this, someone will take it to keep their research going.

[alan]

LawDog wrote:

Do a THR search of 'Rick Stanley'.

Anything coming out of his piehole, I want independent verification of.

LawDog

P95Carry wrote:
Are there other sources that confirm this?

******

Gentlemen:

Without regard to whether or not Mr. Stanley is a charter memeber of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, or simply a worry wart, or just plain nuts, it remains that the legislation he mentioned has been passed and signed into law.

As to the independent verification and or the other sources for confirmation that you mention, or ask about, I repeat myself, the legislation has been passed and signed. While what ever might actually lie at the end of the road that we do seem to be traveling is open to question, the fact that we have headed down that road is not, at least it isn't from where I sit.

Selfdenz:

Do I understand you correctly, that is to say that in Texas, absent a drivers license, one cannot obtain a carry permit, or are you saying that while carrying, ones permit and drivers license must be on ones person. In the first instance, what happens to that person or those people who do not have drivers licenses?

[Sergeant Sabre]

This sounds like a State's-rights issue.

[Luckyorwhat]

Alan, what is the date of passage? Was it Christmas eve?

[Selfdfenz]

Deavis and alan,

You are 100% correct. My mind was on driving while carrying when I was typing.

Deavis
"I'm not sure how much biology background you have but we are amazingly good at taking DNA apart and quickly analyzing it in a lab. We get better and better at it every single day. It will not be long before you see devices that can quickly pull your identity from a non-invasive test in the field. The process of unravelling and slicing DNA is well-known and continually being refined. As long as there is grant money out there for a project like this, someone will take it to keep their research going."


"we are amazingly good" that may well be the detail the Devil is in...

I follow the technology development trends pretty closely. The CODIS loci still require about a 3 hr amplification. That is in addition to the time required for extraction, and quantitation would be nice if you want it to run and run well the first time. Extraction and quant aren't the stumbling blocks. Amplification and detection are. Of course we could go for something other than the FBI loci. That disconnects 2mill samples cross reference-wise from the get-go but it also makes the new db a non-criminalistics one at least for a time. Would the feds pay to float more than one kind of db? I bet the momentum will be for one system and one close to what they have already.

Current state of the art is lab bench top not police cruiser trunk and my guess is, at minimum, we are talking 10 years to make the package that small. One of the benefits for big platform testing is the economy of scale. On demand, point of collection testing usually is more expensive but it is an absolute obligation if DNA biometrics are going anywhere. If the need justifies the cost then you do it but in a project this massive the volumes exceed any on demand, point of collection testing I can dream of. If it weren't a biological test, maybe so.
Retinal scans and finger prints they could do now easily and cheaply. Neither is definitive and would be easier to defeat IMO than DNA.

Then if you want it in every patrol car that's serious $$$. Nothing I've seen technology wise is that robust today. Could be wrong but...GATACA is over the horizon. If you are talking real time PCR for this application it's just not there yet. Newly developed real time apps for diagnostics and some other things I can see but human identity...multi-locus...c/ RT PCR in the trunk of a patrol car or Jimmy down in the Rio Grande, I'll have to see it to believe it. Your talking new science, not improvements on the stuff we have. New science requires money but also time, lots of time.

Best

S-

[TamThompson]

Actually, I believe the national ID card was contained as part of the so-called "Intelligence Bill" that passed late last year, in November. Ron Paul says the Intel bill contained the gist of Patriot Act 2.

As to other sources, Ron Paul and Alex Jones are saying it.

Glad my Texas DL doesn't expire until 2010. CHL, OTOH, is 2007, but that should be OK.

Agree with Ladysmith.

I do not want a national ID card with biometrics. There is nothing wrong with my Texas DL. If it ain't broke...

OH--and another thing I heard on the Alex Jones show: none of this required-national-ID-card-biometrics thing applies to illegal aliens in the US. They're EXEMPT from it, on the grounds that it is just plain mean to deny them work because they don't have a DL.

Anyone besides me have a huge problem with instituting a national ID card for citizens, to cut down on terrorism, but making an exemption for ILLEGAL ALIENS??? It's reverse discrimination, I tell ya, when citizens have less rights than illegals. Grrr.... So, it wouldn't have stopped the 9/11 hijackers, but we have to do it anyway. :confused:

[The Scandinavian]

Hi RileyMC


Why don't they just tattoo barcodes on our foreheads and follow our movements with satellite based laser barcode readers?

Edit: Dumb idea, unless they outlawed ballcaps and cowboy hats.


I visited the UK last year, and every time I went into a pub I was asked by the person behind the bar to remove my baseball cap. The reason? CCTV monitors.


I used to live in the UK; it's barely recognisable now :(

[JohnBT]

My momma would still smack me today if I dared to wear a hat indoors.

Meanwhile, what's the big deal about this national i.d. stuff? The North won the War Between the States and states' rights bit the dust. Are y'all saying the South was right? ;)

John

[alan]

JohnBT wrote:

My momma would still smack me today if I dared to wear a hat indoors.

Meanwhile, what's the big deal about this national i.d. stuff? The North won the War Between the States and states' rights bit the dust. Are y'all saying the South was right?


****
Your Momma sounds like a fine lady.

The only type of hats that I have ever worn were as follows:

1. Hard Hats, an employment related requirment. I don't wear them any more, being retired.
2. A Yarmulka, worn by male jews whilst in a synagouge, where I haven't been since I cannot remember when.

As to the rest of it, I do not believe that anyone said anything about the North or the South, or whichever of the two were "right".

As to your inquiry regarding "what's the big deal about this national i.d. stuff", I'll pass on that, for I would rather not presume to try answering that question, assuming that you are serious. If you were simply being dry, please excuse me.

[LawDog]

Gentlemen:

Without regard to whether or not Mr. Stanley is a charter memeber of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, or simply a worry wart, or just plain nuts, it remains that the legislation he mentioned has been passed and signed into law.

Intel Reform Law (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/R?cp108:FLD010:@1(hr796))

Just as a exercise in propaganda, compare what the PrisonPlanet article (and Stanley) claim the new law states regarding drivers licenses and Social Security Numbers Drivers Licenses will also contain DNA biometric markers and include the holders Social Security Number vs. what the new law actually says about the same (Sec 7214). (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&db_id=cp108&r_n=hr796.108&sel=TOC_656148&)

Ruminate on what you find, and then you might consider reading over the entire law.

*shrug*

Up to you.

LawDog

[The Rabbi]

Thank you, LawDog. Best way to clear the stink of propoganda is with the clean air of facts.

[alan]

LawDog:

If memory serves, and assuming that the excerpt of this Intelligence Reform Act that I saw was correct, the law blocks the use of Social Security Numbers on Drivers Licenses.

Interesting thing about that is the following. That might well serve for licenses issued IN THE FUTURE, but what of all those "soschs" already recorded respecting drivers licenses previously issued, the ones used to "track all those dead beat dads", or at least that was one story that I got once upon a time.

By the way, when you walk into a gun shop, to buy a firearm, and a NICS check is run, you present your drivers license as identification. The dealer keys in the license number, and guess what comes up on the dealers end, your "sosch". This is NOT hear say, it is what I have seen, Rick Stanley and any other members of the tinfoil lined hat brigade having nothing to do with anything.

I will look at the section you linked tomorrow. Looked at the section you linked a moment ago, and we are both correct, though my question about EXISTING data remains. After all, the FBI did create what they blithly called an AUDIT LOG, the provisions of Brady that precluded record keeping notwithstanding. By the bye, what about all those other data basses, where all manner of things are indexed and or retreivable via Social Security Numbers.

I ask the foregoing questions because I have little or no trust in the government, whether any particular administration be Democratic or Republican. It that causes me to become a member of The Tinfoil Hat Brigade, so be it.

[Selfdfenz]

Isn't there a prohibition regarding the collection and archival of records of firearms purchases. I seem to remember that there is such a rule but I also seem to remember that it's been violated on more than one occassion by the feds and select state governmental agencies, or at least I got that impression that might be happening from reading the American Rifleman some time ago.

The fact there is a law on the books today ( good link Lawdog) preventing this is no assurance the feds will not violate, dismiss or repeal the law the minute they see fit to. Nothing would stop them for putting an exception in place down the road.

Just my 2 pence

S-

[jrhines]

Alan said -"By the way, when you walk into a gun shop, to buy a firearm, and a NICS check is run, you present your drivers license as identification. The dealer keys in the license number, and guess what comes up on the dealers end, your "sosch". "
I'm an FFL, I run e-checks in the NICs system almost daily. The INPUT of the SSN is optional (I usually don't, but it does seem to slow the search), and all I have ever got back is DELAY or PROCEED. Maybe it's just me...

[GigaBuist]

I didn't follow LawDog's link, yet, as I'm winding down for the night and don't want to spike my blood pressure by having to read legalese, but if memory serves "biometric" data was mentioned in the legislation.

Remember, "biometric" can simply mean height/weight/eye color/hair color information. It doesn't have to be DNA and I'm pretty sure we don't have the means to even do that at this point as others have mentioned: cost and all that jazz.

So, just because the word "biometric" pops up don't immediately jump up, put on the tin foil hat, and screaming about DNA. Eventually it will be DNA, if this type of stuff stands, but that's a ways off so its best to keep the rhetoric over in the "sane" realm at this point. :)

Onto another matter:
By the way, when you walk into a gun shop, to buy a firearm, and a NICS check is run, you present your drivers license as identification. The dealer keys in the license number, and guess what comes up on the dealers end, your "sosch". This is NOT hear say, it is what I have seen,
I'm sure many states have such a system. I did some looking into this a week or so ago myself as Michigan is now requiring an SSN for a driver's license. Its all part of the dead-beat-dad thing I'm told. In my searching I found something stating that Michigan was the ONLY state not yet doing this. Could be wrong, and I don't even have a source for it, but I -do- know that my SSN has never been given to the Secretary of State for a driver's license. Now, whether or not we're the only state not requring it, I don't know.

Also, the DLN is not required for the NICS check to the best of my knowledge. I too thought it was until my last firearms purchase. My DL was not asked for until after the NICS check ran through without a hitch. Every other time (uh, 17, 18 times?) it was asked for beforehand but not this time around. Hence, I must conclude that a DLN isn't actually required for the NICS to process. I also never put my SSN on the 4473.

However, my speculation on the requirement of a DLN for a NICS could easily be put to rest as we have a number of FFL 01's on this board.

If you saw a firearms dealer key a DLN into a system and get an SSN back it was probably just a state based system that gave him a safety check verifying that this DLN was actually valid. If they ask for it before the NICS is complete its just to verify that what you wrote on the 4473 is actually valid. Many dealers have compared the two on me before calling it in. I'd imagine the last one didn't because I had just got done shooting machine guns at the place and it was pretty obvious that I had my DL on me, that it was valid, and 2-3 other people had already seen it.

[jrhines]

To request a FBI NICS E-Check (via the internet), you must supply;
Last name
First name
Sex
Race
Date of birth
State of residence
Citizenship
Countries of Citizenship
Purpose Code - Long gun, handgun

optionally you may provide;
Middle name
Cadence -Jr, III, Sr
Height
Weight
Place of Birth
SSN

I have found that omitting the SSN slowed down the check somewhat ( 2 hrs rather than 10 mins.) You do not need a DL to do a NICS check. However you do need some form of positive ID, and you need to say what that ID was on the form 4473. The Maryland state application for a restricted weapon (handgun or assault weapon) requires your DL number and your SSN be supplied to the state police, then the police do the NICS and give you the transaction number and, if you pass, they declare you "NOT DISAPPROVED".

[alan]

GigaBuist & jrhines:

My comment about the dealer keying in a drivers liicense number and my "socsh" appearing on his machine might be peculiar to Pennsylvania, which is where the transaction took place, still the two are obviously tied together. For what legitimate purpose, LEGITIMATE being the operational phrase?

GigaBuist:

That "we use it to track dead beat dads" is, and please pardon me, an outrageous load of crap. Additionally, for whatever it might be worth, I never hunted, hunting being something that I'm simply not particularly interested in. I used to buy a hunting license because I felt my license fee was a small contribution to something worth while, game management. The first time I was asked for my Social Security Number, was the end of the above mentioned "contributions". I understand that it's required for other "recreational licenses" too, and as for that business of Dead Beat Dads, what about the Dead Beat Moms, one example thereof I personally knew. She was never called to task.

By the way, given that this Intelligence Reform Act, now the law of the land, contained a provision making tying social security numbers to drivers licenses, "a no-no", I wonder as to what the several states will do, and then, what about the data bases already containing them.

Did either of you ever hear that old military story, where the commanding officer walks into the company, regiment or division offices and announces that all the file cabinets, the ones loaded weith all manner of paper that nobody ever looks at are to be emptied, the papers to be burned. Before burning, make three copies of evereything.

jrhines:

Please re-read my post. I said nothing about the dealer keying in the customers Social Security Number, what I said was that the dealer's keying in the customers drivers license caused his social security number to appear. I personally viewed this. Now then, it is possible that this arrangement is peculiar to Pennsylvania, where the transaction took place, I cannot speak to that possibility, because I do not know. It is my understanding that social security numbers are "optional" on the federal form(s), however in PA, the state fuzz requires them, or so I was told by a dealer.

In general, what I consider the general public's mealy mouthed attitude regarding "offical demands" is philosophically annoying to me. This might well be a failing on my part, but what ever happened to that perfectly reasonable question that might be couched in the following terms. Regarding this information you are demanding, exactly what is the basis for your request? I suspect that to many people do not even think of asking that most simple of questions, the one that reads WHY.

[rock jock]

Hmm.

Do a THR search of 'Rick Stanley'.

Anything coming out of his piehole, I want independent verification of.
Yup! Rick Stanley and the word "credibility" really don't belong in the same paragraph.

[jrhines]

alan - Nor did I say the dealer keyed in a SSN. My point was that for a NICS check over the internet you don't need a DL number. I don't know what you saw, but IMHO it wasn't a dealer keying in a state DL to accomplish a federal NICS. It might be some sort of state check, but that isn't a NICS. In Maryland the State Police run the NICS for regulated weapons. The state form (MSP77R) requires your state DL and your SSN as well as the stuff required by the NICS (name, DOB, etc.). On the state form the SSN is not optional, it won't be processed without it. The police then do a standard NICS (like I do for all long guns) and return the NTN to me for entry onto the federal 4473. They also get the clients home address, home phone and work phone, but ya' don't need any of that for a NICS either. Yeah, I know, MD sucks, but I'm doing the best I can.
The MD DoT uses a SOUNDEX number for DLs, but as I recall several states use SSN as DLs, student IDs, etc.

[alan]

jrhines wrote:

Yeah, I know, MD sucks, but I'm doing the best I can.

*****

I think you might have misunderstood my comments. To set that straight, nothing I said was intended to criticize you personally. As to other aspects, Pennsylvania is a Point of Contact state, sounds as if Maryland is also, given your reference to the state police running background checks.

As for Maryland "sucking", perhaps it does, however Pennsylvania has it's police and legislative Knuckle heads also, as well as some in the judiciary. In any case the Maryland Legislature makes law there, correct me if I'm wrong, and it all to often turns out that people get the sort of government they didn't vote against. Ultimately, when and if the laws go "bad", it is the fault of the electorate. Perhaps that group is more heavily weighted with anti gunners than with pro gun people, and the majority vote accordingly.

We have certainly experienced this sort of thing natrionally, though in that case, the problem might lie in and with getting The Congress to admit that it had "blown it", via enactment of really piss poor legislation, which they have belatedly acted to repeal. Even with changes in that body, significant changes, I hadn't noticed the repeal of any federal anti gun or gun control laws.

rock jock:

I do not recall if you have come "late" to this discussion, however respecting Mr. Stanley, as I noted earlier, he could be the world's greatest nut case, the originator of the tinfoil hat bdrigade, or he could simply be a pain in the ass worry wart. It remains however, that the legislation he made mention of has in fact become the law of the land, with such "warts" as might be inherent in it. Independent Verification of that can be found by reading the bill itself. I imaging that thomas.loc .gov contains the full text.I understand that it is quite large, as that sort of thing usually is, but it has been enacted, and Rick Stanley's credibility, or the lack thereof has nothing to do with that.

[LawDog]

It has become 'law of the land'

the United States Congress passed legislation
yesterday that requires the States to surrender their regulatory rights
over driver's licenses and birth certificates to The Department of Homeland
Security.

Any and all changes to birth certificates and DL's must be authorized by the issuing State.

the Department of Homeland Security will issue new
uniformity regulations to the States requiring that all Drivers Licenses
and Birth Certificates meet minimal Federal Standards with regard to US
citizen information, including biometric security provisions.

It suggests that birth certificates be standardized in the United States. Biometrics are never mentioned in connection with birth certificates. It further suggests that all DL's issued in the United States be capable having a digital photo.

It authorizes biometric additions to passports - not drivers licenses and not birth certificates.

Drivers Licenses will also contain DNA biometric markers and include the holders Social Security Number and be required for receiving and applying for all State and Federal benefits programs.

The words 'DNA biometric markers' are never found anywhere in that law, and 'biometric markers' are found regarding entry and exit onto US soil, nowhere else. The law specifically forbids the placing of your SSN on your DL, and goes further to forbid placing your SSN on your DL as a bar code or mag stripe, and finally, forbids placing any partial part of your SSN on your DL.

Also included in this bill is a law to require The Department of Homeland Security to establish a separate ID system for citizens to use prior to boarding airplanes,

He finally got one right. Sort of. Any passports used to enter or exit the United States will have to have biometric information in them.

This is why I want independent verification of anything Rick Stanley says. He brazenly lies (SSN's on DL's!), bends the truth past the point of recognition, and spins what's left into something only vaguely resembling what actually happened.

I'm not happy about some parts of that law. Outright lying about it only makes it harder to point out the disturbing things.

LawDog

[Sergeant Sabre]

Are y'all saying the South was right?

Yep.

[Gbro]

New here, and trying to acclimate to this very interesting .ORG;

I have never felt so insecure about my rights.
The homeland intrusion department is in the process of taking over the Emergency services in all states. They are so very cleaver in doing so too.

Our little Podunk fire Dept. recieved a nice big grant fron the intrusion Dept. for the purchace of a thermal image camera. What a tool for us, ........."BUT" what a "PLUG" for them! in the paper, we read about the great new equipment made avalible to us from a grant from the HSD.

Do not, How do we "NOT" get hooked up in this?

Terror Comes In Manny Forms, Department of Homeland Security =(Constitutional Terroists)