[chaim]

OK, I know I've done this before but I have been doing some more thinking.

I am working as a substitute teacher so I don't make that much money. Also, I am applying to graduate school for fall so hopefully I will be going to grad school soon but what that means is that I won't have much money for new "toys" because I'll need to save money for when I first get there (I'll probably be in another state so I'll need some savings while waiting to find a job and waiting for my first student loan check).

I figure I can probably spend about $500-600 on a gun, primarily as a fun plinker. I'd like to buy sometime early to mid spring. I've decided for sure not to save more for a Bushmaster or M1A because there are several others I want by grad school too (1-3 pistols/revolvers, a pistol caliber lever gun, and maybe a bolt rifle) and the Bushy or M1A would take one of those out of the running (it would be about double the guns below).

-I don't want anyone to say "how about an AK" as I've decided for sure I don't want one. I have an SKS which is ok for now, and I want a peep sight, so while the AK will probably be added eventually I don't want it right now.

-I would really like a Mini-14 and/or Mini-30. I know, I've read it all before- they aren't accurate (or so some people say). Well, it is probably more accurate than I am. Also, most people get Ranch Rifles, I'd be looking for the plain Mini-14 with the more rugged sight so I don't know if that would make a difference. They are supposed to be reliable and I've wanted one for a while. The one time I got to shoot a couple mags out of one some guy had at the range I thought it was a ton of fun to shoot. The ammo is dirt cheap.

-I also love the M1 Carbine. It is a classic, can be fired at indoor pistol ranges (and I don't get to rifle ranges often enough), is a gun I wanted before I got into guns (I am a military history buff) and the ammo is relatively inexpensive (though more than .223/5.56). I'd probably get an IMI built model. I rented one at the indoor range once and it took days to get the smile off my face.

-I may consider a Century FAL (L1 something or other- a British spec FAL). It is a little pricy but still in range (about $600 locally). I don't know that much about these, but an FAL clone in .308/7.61 would be nice. The ammo is a bit more than .223/5.56 but surplus ammo isn't bad (the factory stuff seems pretty typical for non-magnum rifle ammo).

-Century AR 15. I can't afford to get a Bushmaster now but I've loved this design since I shot an M16 at Ft. Jackson in Basic Training. Of course, the reputation on these seems pretty mixed.

These are the main ones I'm considering right now, but there are a couple possible "wild cards":
-Century Arms CETME. Probably not since there seems to be more bad out there than good about it but for under $300 it is tempting.
-Armalite AR 180. Around here they are $700 so it is over my limit and thus unlikely. However, it is a very good gun and it isn't that far over my limit (unlike the $900-1300 guns) so if I make some of my other purchases used guns it won't have to be instead of one of the additional guns I wish to buy.
-Two pistol caliber lever guns instead of one. I'm having a hard time deciding between a Winchester or Marlin and there is a slim chance I'll get both.
-A Remington 7400. I really do like the look and feel of these (though I've never got the chance to shoot one) and I do plan to eventually buy one. However, for now I am leaning towards military style and I do want peep sights. Also, most are chambered in more expensive calibers (30-06 and .270).

[gun-fucious]

the kel tek SUR
http://www.kel-tec.com/pr04.htm
~ 640 bucks MSRP

or the beretta CX4 Storm 9mm carbine
~700 bucks MSRP
http://www.berettaweb.com/Beretta%20CX4_Storm/CX4_storm1.htm
would be fun

[blowsomethingup]

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga.shtml

http://club.guns.ru/images/video/sig308.mpg


cdnn $229.
:evil::D

[hps1]

Don't forget the M1 Garand available through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. These great rifles are a piece of history and are within your specified price range.

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/index.htm#m1917

Have heard good things about the Danish M1's w/VAR barrels and they are priced right.

Good luck in finding the rifle you are looking for.

Regards,
hps

[chaim]

gun-fucious,

I forgot to add the Kel-tec to my "wild card" list. It looks interesting but since it isn't even out yet no one has any experience with it and I'm not all that sure about being one of the guinea pigs (though they do have a reputation of being good to deal with and backing their products if you need customer service). Also, I may want to buy before May (plus with a May release date they probably won't be in many dealer's racks until summer). But of course, once they are out there and I can see them, who knows. If they seem really nice or the price is right (and I haven't bought yet)...


blowsomethingup,

:scrutiny:
No AKs, maybe later though. Thanks anyway.

hps1,

That's a good idea too, though I'm probably going to only add it to the "wild cards" and not my more likely choices. I am not a member of a DCM shooting club so I'd need to join one first. Also, there isn't much 30-06 surplus ammo left out there and so the only options would be pretty expensive and I'll be a poor grad student for the next several years (though I guess that could be a good excuse to finally start reloading). In its favor, the design has all the history of the Carbine plus this will be an actual former government gun that may have some real history as opposed to the IMI remanufactured M1 Carbine. It would be a ton of fun when I could afford to shoot it.

[Jack19]

chaim,

The Mini is a decent weapon, it'll do what it was designed to do inside 100, or so. Mags are the real problem, even the good aftermarkets are $50. Still, not terrible if you're dedicated.

I've always wanted a M1 Carbine myself. Mags are cheap and it's a fun weapon.

The Garand is also good advice. CMP is the way to go....and the most fun.

If it were up to me, Carbine or Garand. You'll shoot the Carbine more often than the Garand on a Sub salary.

[GD]

If you don't mind surplus then how about a Hakim or SVT-40? Ammo is relatively cheap and they are fun shooters.

[Kaylee]

well, if the use is "fun plinker" I'd put a vote for the M1 carbine. As you say, you already had a desire for it before, and it has a nice historical appeal.

That said... AIM last I saw had stock A2 bushies for 699. You *may* be able to find a used one with a bit of hunting in the mid-600's. If it's on your "eventual" list at all, I'd give it a thought.

-K

[TheLastBoyScout]

If you're willing to make a road trip to the valley forge (PA) gun show next weekend you could prolly snag a bushie for only $50 more than the AR 180 you talked about... 750 is about the going rate for 20'' XM15E2 models there.
But I don't know what part of MD you're in, it might be too much of a drive.
If you can legally have a rifle shipped in and transfered to you, aimsurplus.com had them for $700. Check back to see if they get them back in stock (but you would need to pay transfer fees, cause an FFL has to fill out the paperwork and get it shipped to his store first)

[bad_dad_brad]

Given that list, I would go with the plain jane Mini-14. New factory type 10 rounders are hitting the market and are excellent. Heck, the Mini is accurate enough for it's intended purpose. It ain't no AR-15, but it will do the job within 100 yards. Look around you might be able to find a good used one for under $400. I kick myself everyday for passing up a new base Mini a few years ago for $379.

[Handy]

A CMP Dane Garand for $400. You can have it rebarreled in .308 down the road.

OR

A Sherluck or similar quality AR15 kit for $400 and $100 for a PWA, Eagle Arms or similar receiver. Add an hour of your time to assemble the lower (upper preassembled). Mine was really excellent-Bushmaster quality.

Both are proven, durable and accurate military arms. I think everything else relies too much on plastic, is frustratingly innaccurate or low powered (Keltec/AR180b, Mini and Carbine, respectively).


If you're going to go with a Fal (probably the best cheaper .308 gun), pony up an extra $200 and get an IAI M-444 or the equivalent.

Century is a bit too hit or miss for my tastes.

[Will Fennell]

AR180b

[bad_dad_brad]

Will Fennell,

Where have you found an AR-180B? One of the Armalite dealers I frequent, the last time I checked (about 6 months ago) can't get one. He was supposed to call me when he did. I got impatient and bought an AR-15.

[Will Fennell]

I saw one last week in Augusta, Ga @ Sidney's Dept. and Uniform Store[gunstore and ploice supply shop]. I forgot the price....but the rifle was VERY interesting......I see one in my future.

[Grampa]

I'm kinda going through this thought process myself, and have added the Ruger PC-9 and PC-4 to the list. I have both a Ruger P-series 9MM and .40 handgun, and have several mags for both.

Hmmm....

[firestar]

I've had ARs and Mini-14s and I think the Mini-14 was a little more fun to shoot. I really like the "normal" stock it has and it shot just as well as the AR-15 offhand. The AR-15 is hard for me to hold right so the superior accuracy of it is cancelled out by the less than perfect ergonamics for me.

Yes from a bench an AR-15 will probably be more accurate but for a fun plinker, you could do worse than get a Mini-14. My Mini NEVER jammed either, that is impressive in a semi-auto rifle.

[another48hrs]

FN49 in 8mm

[six 4 sure]

My $.02 FWIW

Of those you listed, I choose between the M1 carbine and the FAL. I don't remember laws reguarding hi-cap mags in MD, so I don't know how that factors in your decision. I've seen 20rd mags for FAL's NIW for under $10 and I think I remember seeing 15 rd mags for the carbine for reasonable prices.

In a way your looking for "the best bang for the buck". In choices like that I tend to lean toward what I consider the better caliber. So if I were you I look closer at the FAL. However, be warned, the Century FAL's can be a crap shoot. Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you don't. I'd check out www.falfiles.com for more info.

If you're really serious about the FAL I'd suggest having one built, (first buy the parts kit, then receiver, then the required US made parts, then send it off to have someone put it together) that way you can spend a little at a time, and in the end have a kick butt rifle. I'm planning on doing this soon. It's a little bit of a pain to do it legal but it can be done. I know what and who I'm buying everything from, just need to come up with the money. If you'd like more info PM me and I'd be happy to send you all the info I've put together.

Good luck in whatever choice you make and happy shooting.

Six

[Sven]

I vote for the Mixmaster USGI M1 carbine, or IAI version.

S&B ammo is about 8 bucks for 50 rounds.

[cheygriz]

Haunt the gun shows for a wgile, and you should be able to find a good used Post-Ban AR-15 for around $600.

Bushmaster, Colt, RRA, Armalite, are all good. You could get a used Bushmaster an 20 GOOD magazines for the price of a mini-14 and 5 BAD magazines

[dude]

IAI M-888 .30 Carbine

fun.......fun.......fun

It will just about kill your $500 though. A bag full of 15 round mags is cheap and ammo is pretty-cheap if you buy S&B in bulk.

[chaim]

That said... AIM last I saw had stock A2 bushies for 699. You *may* be able to find a used one with a bit of hunting in the mid-600's. If it's on your "eventual" list at all, I'd give it a thought. I wasn't sure if I should include the AR 180 on my list as I do want to stay under $600 if at all possible. That said, keeping an eye out for a used AR from Armalite, Colt or Bushmaster isn't a bad idea.

Look around you might be able to find a good used one for under $400. I kick myself everyday for passing up a new base Mini a few years ago for $379. You know, this time last year I went to a gun show and everyone had really nice used Minis for $350 (really, just about every dealer had really good used Mini-14s and I don't usually see used Minis around here). I had just bought a new pistol, and I wanted a few more before the built-in lock law took effect this past January so I didn't spend the cash on one. Also, it was winter and with everyone having them used I figured that they'd be around for a little while. Of course I haven't seen one used Mini since.

I'm kinda going through this thought process myself, and have added the Ruger PC-9 and PC-4 to the list. I have both a Ruger P-series 9MM and .40 handgun, and have several mags for both. I've thought about that before. I think if I didn't sell my P89 I would certainly get a PC-9 (though probably not for this purchase). I like that they can share mags, very convenient. Even now that I don't own the P89 I could see eventually (though not for a few years) getting the PC-9 and a P95 as a matched pair.

I don't remember laws reguarding hi-cap mags in MD, so I don't know how that factors in your decision. Could be better but could easily be worse. Hi-caps are legal, however we do have a 20 round limit. Unfortunately, there aren't that many available at local dealers (well, they are out there but not easy to find nor are there many choices when they are available). Many websites won't sell "high-caps" to Maryland residents (I don't know if it is the 20 round limit and they won't sell any high-cap just to make things easier or if there is a misconception that no high-caps are legal here). Anyway, there is always the MD, VA and PA gunshow option I guess.

[Zundfolge]

You might look at the French MAS 49/56 (usualy sold as "never shot ... only dropped once").

I've seen 7.5mm ones for sale for under $250 and .308 ones for under $500.


Then for another $189.95 you can dress it up real purdy :)
http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/mas/mas.html

http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/mas/Mas.jpg

[foghornl]

US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly Know As "The Garand".

Starting at $400 (Dane Service Grade) from the CMP.


www.odcmp.com

[jacks308]

The CMP garands have a lot going for them and for the buyer now . It seems the CMP thinks it's a good idea for people to shoot these old rifles . $420 bucks for a Dane is a bargin and like the man said after you shoot the barrel off the thing (about 7-10,000rds) you can barrel it up for .308 if ya want .

Can ya tell the Garand has it hook in me ?

Jack

[telewinz]

Imbel receiver FAL, nothing else comes close or is better at twice the price. Except maybe an FN 49 in 8mm.:)

[Kharn]

I'd try for an AR15 using a stripped lower and a parts kit, shouldnt be too much more than $500.

Kharn

[ReadyontheRight]

I really don't want to be a "me too" either.........but "me too".

www.odcmp.com

You can join some of the clubs via the internet for $20 or so. Your local high power club can probably find you a gun and plenty of help to do the match requirement. The $425 Danish Garands with the VAR barrels are starting to go on backorder, so they may be running out. You can always buy something that's a new production. When the CMP Garands are gone, the $400-$500 Garand is gone.

[enichols]

For $500, I'd probably opt for a really, really, really good condition SKS, lots of stripper clips, and tons of ammo. Use leftover cash for range fees for the year and more ammo.

My $.02
-Nic

[mini14jac]

Boy, have I been down this road a few times.
I've had a SKS, Mini14 stainless, MAK, Bushy, then a SAR AK.
I had two M1 carbines for evaluation a couple of weeks ago.
I really hate to pay $400 for a gun that is 60 years old, and looks it.:rolleyes: They were a lot of fun to shoot, and very accurate.
If I could have found a new IMI in that price range, I would have bought it.
I also looked at the KelTec Sub2000, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

I finally traded my SAR1 AK for a used, blue Mini14, in very good condition, with two 30rd PMI mags.
I like the "M1 Carbine" looks of the Mini.
A local gunsmith will do a trigger job for $35.
I ordered a glass bed kit from Brownell's for $25.
I don't plan on shooting it with a scope, and yes, it is a blast to shoot.

At 25 yards, I got <1" groups with Wolf or Winchester.
At 100 yards, the groups were closer to 6".
(Open sights, off of sandbags.)
And, in all fairness to the gun, I could barely see the 2" target dot at 100yds.

After the bedding and trigger job, I think the gun will be acceptable for <100 yard shooting.
As you said, the gun is more accurate than me.
I like the gun, and I like Ruger products in general.
30rd mags can be found for around $30 each, and I don't feel like I will need more than 3 or 4.
If you are willing to "tweak" on your mags, you can get 30rd mags for $10 -12.

Remember, the hunt is half the fun.
:cool:

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Here's a rundown on the non-military options. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5846)

Remington 7400's are usually pretty cheap, and ten-round mags are available. These rifles can be had in a variety of calibers, they're non-phobic, and they're typically under $300 used. Not a military gun, which shows in it's design, but they work. This is probably the cheapest one you could get, ($400-ish new.) except for the Rem. M-8/81.

That being said, I would say get a FAL sporter. Cheapest full-power battle rifle available. Also look at the STG-58. Common as mud, and lots of mags. I'd own one, but their ergonomics drive me nuts, just like all the pistol-grip guns do.

Garand: Yes. Definitely. :)

49/56's are a good idea too. (I like mine a lot. Cheapest battle rifle I could get at $350.) Funny looking, though. Got that Gallic thing going, I guess, but a good rifle all the same. 10-round mags are a limiter, but they switch fast. Mags are cheap, too.

SVT-40's are big, (4' plus OAL.) cantankerous, heavy, kick hard, are very loud, are downright impossible to get parts for, and mags run about $75. IF you can find 'em. Cheap, powerful ammo, though. Reliable, but with a fragile reputation from the trenches. No after-market stock options to improve their lot. Getting expensive and harder to find, these days. Almost impossible to scope.

Underdog personal favorite, Remington Model 8 or 81 Woodsmaster, despite a five round fixed mag and funky caliber choices. See above link.
http://www.remington.com/images/history/m8.jpg
(Image courtesy of Remington. (http://www.remington.com))

M-1 Carbine's, AR's, and Mini's all qualify as plinkers, to me. They're all very good guns, but I want rifles to be in serious calibers. Mini-30's and AR's in 7.62 x 39 are a step up from this, but you have an SKS, so you know about this caliber.

[chaim]

For $500, I'd probably opt for a really, really, really good condition SKS, lots of stripper clips, and tons of ammo. Use leftover cash for range fees for the year and more ammo. Nah, I already have an SKS, though one in really, really, really bad condition. If I already had one or two of the other rifle catagories that I want filled then I'd strongly consider one of the $200 Yugo SKSs that are out there (for $200 one local dealer still has some that are still in unissued condition). Maybe putting some $ into fixing mine up (it is very beat up and inaccurate) might not be a bad idea if I can get it up to speed for about half the cost of a Yugo (plus then going for one of my other options used).

Gerand

Maybe. I've also "always" (since I started seriously studying WWII at about 11yo anyway) wanted one. What are all the steps required after I join a club (esp. if I do one of the web based ones as someone suggested) to get one of the CMP or DCM or whatever they are called now guns? The ammo would be a bit expensive for a grad student though, but I guess I could buy a few cases this summer and have enough for about 2 years (or use this as my excuse to finally start reloading).

Mini

Hmm. I really would like one, I really do think they are "neat" (basically a military type gun that doesn't look it). There also does seem to be a lot of stuff out there to customize them and "accurize" them. They seem hit or miss (no pun intended:neener: ) accuracy wise. But if I got a bad one it looks like I could probably get it accurized for less than the cost of an AR, and I could probably have the cost spread out by having a little done at a time. This is still high on the list.

AR

I still really want one, I've been hooked since Basic Training. However, the good ones are more than I want to spend. Getting the parts a piece at a time and having someone put it together for me would be ok except I am too impatient. Buying all the parts and putting it together myself- getting good parts wouldn't be much less than an AR 180 (a bit more than I want to spend) and I'd be afraid of messing it up and spending the $ I'd save on the gunsmith to fix what I messed up (thus if I get good Bushmaster or similar parts after paying the smith I'd probably be at the same cost if I just bought the Bushy to begin with).

A new consideration though, MD does now have an "assult rifle" ban in the legislature. I'll need to see if it will "grandfather" existing owners or if one will need to turn them in should it pass. If it looks like it will pass and current owners are exempted I'll have to hurry up and do the Bushy. If it looks like it will pass and current owners won't be exempted than I guess I won't be looking for an AR or FAL (don't want to buy an expensive gun and then months later have to turn it in)

M1 Carbine

Arrggh. Too many I really want and too little money (yet another reason to wait on the expensive AR). This probably would be behind the others, being "just" a "plinker" like the Mini but w/ much more expensive ammo than .223, except for the fact that it could be used at indoor pistol ranges (I don't get to outdoor rifle ranges as often as I'd like- too cold in the winter, many summer days in MD are outright oppressively hot and humid and the hours most are open don't really work with my schedule very well).

It is another gun I'd really like to have but some of the others would probably be just a tad ahead of it for various reasons (for some more power, most longer range and better accuracy, others cheaper ammo) but this would probably be the most used due to the fact that it could be used at pistol ranges. If not for that, it would probably be after one (though not all) of my other choices were filled. Also, in its favor, the one I got to shoot was a ton of fun.

Rem 7400

That is a gun that has interested me for a while. As I said, it is a wild card (since I've been interested for a while) but since I'm in a military rifle mood it isn't as high on the list as the others and as with the Garand the ammo isn't exactly cheap (though I think it is available in .308 so cheaper surplus ammo is still out there). It is another "neat" gun in my way of thinking though, and that goes a long way. Is there an aftermarket source for "peep" sights for it? How good are the "high-cap" 10 round mags?



Ok guys, I'm still no where near knowing which way to go. The Garand is now on my list (high on my list). The Mini is high. The 7400 is higher than when I started. The M1 Carbine is a little lower. The ARs (15 and 180) are still on the list, but I'm leaning against the Century and even the 180 is more than I wish to spend right now so barring legislative action that hurries that one up I probably won't go that way (unless I see a great used deal on the 15 or great deal new on the 180). However, all are still very much being considered and I can be nudged any of these directions.

Keep up the input please. Thanks for what you've given so far.

[hps1]

I've been hooked since Basic Training. However, the good ones are more than I want to spend

What are all the steps required after I join a club

Check out the CMP web site for requirements to purchase M1. Veterans are not required to shoot in matches to purchase a rifle IIRC. I am pretty sure a copy of your DD 214 is all you need to apply.

http://www.odcmp.com/

When I ordered my DCM rifle back in the early 80's the price was only $90.00 and no exceptions made for military service. Prices have continued to increase over the years and I suspect will really take a jump if and when CMP supply dries up. One might consider an M1 purchase an investment.:D :D

Regards,
hps

[ReadyontheRight]

To qualify to get a Garand from the CMP, you could join an affiliated club in your state - clubs are posted at www.odcmp.com -- or for $25 you could join the Garand Collectors Association:

http://www.garandcollector.org/gca_join.htm

Through www.odcmp.com - You need a copy of your affiliated club card, a copy of proof of citizenship, a copy of your card from a high power match OR proof of military service, some paperwork, some money and some patience. A few weeks later, a Garand is delivered right to your door. :)

P.S. When the delivery guy asks "what's in the long heavy box?", tell him it's none of his business.

[Handy]

Chaim,

I really think the "quality of a Bushmaster" is a myth. Any AR built with a good receiver and NEW mil-quality parts is going to be as good as an $800 Bushmaster.

Places like Model 1 Sales, M&A parts and Hesse have just ruined the basic rifle's reputation by selling refinished de-milled parts.

The only "assembly" you do with a kit is the lower. It takes an hour. The upper and bolt are assembled, head spaced and perfect.

I really think it's insane to pay hundreds extra for brand name and an extra hour of unskilled labor.

As to the Ar-180, it's neat, but for $500 you are getting less gun and no options. If you're not going to something neat and old timey (M1 or M1), a $500 AR15 is by far the best value. The prices are only this low because of all the military contracts. The AR15 would be a $1200 rifle if built solely for the civilian market.

If you want specific advice on where to buy and how to build, feel free to email me. That was the best $500 I could have spent on a rifle.

[chaim]

OK, for now the FAL and ARs are pretty much out of the running.

See this thread for why: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12463

It appears that MD is now considering an "assult rifle" ban. Now one might think that would make me hurry up and get the AR (I would have thought so too) except the bill as it stands will only grandfather current AR owners if they register their ARs by July 31 (which is coming very soon and the bill hasn't even passed, let alone the regs written by the state police to determine how to handle registration, so it seems unlikely that it would be possible to be registered in time even if I was willing to register). I have a major problem with registering a firearm (even while I am painfully aware that the current system can be used pretty easily as registration if the gov't so chooses- some may remember the call I got from the FBI during the DC "sniper" situation). While there is defacto registration already, the harrassment directed at DC area gun owners (including a threatening call to me) actually has me more determined than ever not to submit to registration.

I'll need to wait and see how that bill goes. If it becomes law I won't be buying anything that matches the definition of an "assult rifle" until I leave MD. I am writing my legislators as well. Of course, I'll hopefully have whatever I get in this catagory (the fun rifle) before the bill is passed or defeated so I guess that means that the AR will have to wait a little while.

[Mad Man]

Ruger 10/22

50th post