[michiganfan]

this is sort of a spin off on the condition one thread. what is the danger level of an ND on a typical 1911 when one is in the pipe and the hammer is down instead of cocked and locked. The reason I ask is that I am left handed and it is very awkward to draw and to flip off the safety. i would much perfer to carry the gun chambered hammer down and no safety. Danger and what level?

Follow up level is ther a difference in danger level with a decocker

[EJ]

Some have firing pin safeties-- Others do not--
A series '80 Colt would be relatively safe as the pin is locked untill the trigger is pulled-
A series '70 would be very dangerous--

Depends on the design of the specific 1911

[Leibster]

You're probably better off either carrying in condition three, or getting an ambidextrous safety installed on your 1911.

If you already have the gun in a condition where you need to do something to it, you're better off with a larger, gross motor skill motion than with a smaller, fine or complex motor skill (racking the slide vs. cocking the hammer.)

But since your preference seems to be cocked & locked, you'll probably best be served by making the relatively small investment in having an ambi safety installed on your 1911.

--Leibster

[Jim Watson]

Contrary to EJ, a pre-'80 1911 (not all of which are '70s) is not particularly dangerous with the hammer all the way down on a loaded chamber. The inertial firing pin was long considered an adequate protection and is, if the firing pin spring is good. Before Jeff Cooper named it Condition Two, it was known as the Mexican carry because of its supposed popularity south of the border.

GETTING the hammer down on a loaded chamber is the first trick. COCKING the hammer to shoot is the second trick.

Condition Three - magazine loaded, chamber empty is ok, may be better, IF you are SURE you will have both hands free to rack the slide.

Best is an ambidextrous safety. But you have to have a good one. A safety adequate for an occasional weak handed drill by a right hander might not hold up to steady use by a lefty. A southpaw of my acquaintance went through two or three before I got him onto the King's which has better retention and stabilization than the usual tab under the right grip panel.

If you really worry about it, get a Sig Sauer or some such and don't try to make do with a 1911 you are not using in its most efficient form.

[EJ]

Contrary to Jim:D
Older 1911s can and do go off when dropped on their muzzle--
To me that's dangerous-- You're entitled to a varied opinion--

And as Jim allowed-- Getting the hammer down on a loaded older 1911 is also tricky-- I also would call this dangerous--

Just be aware that there is no firing pin lock or anything else, other than simple inertia keeping the firing pin away from the primer and discharge on a series'70 or older 1911 style auto--

[M1911]

MichiganFan: Get yourself to a gunsmith and have him install an ambidextrous safety. It doesn't cost that much.

[Sean Smith]

I would suggest getting an abidextrous safety so you can use the gun in the most efficient manner, i.e. cocked and locked.

[WonderNine]

The 1911 also have a grip safety, which ads a redundant amount of safety to an already safe design.

Holsters I would use for a BHP or 1911 would also have a piece of leather blocking the hammer from the firing pin.

[DeltaElite]

As long as the finger stays off of the trigger, until you desire to destroy something in front of the weapons muzzle, there is minimal danger. ;)
My two 1911's are series 80's. Both are Delta's, but I don't have a concern about carrying a series 70 weapon.

Don't worry, be happy and use whichever you desire.

[tetchaje1]

Maybe I had better sell off that new Series 70 Razorback that I ordered... :scrutiny:

[EJ]

I just don't think a series '70 gun is the best choice for "Hammer down" carry--

I have a series '70 Pin gun and would carry it anywhere -- confidently --
But I would carry it cocked and locked--

That was the initial post question--
I am a big 1911 fan -- new or old--

[Cal4D4]

tetchaje1:
If you want to bring it to Kali for a face to face transfer, I'm your huckleberry.

[Croyance]

Many 1911 models come with ambidextrous safeties already in box. As was said, the trick is to decock a 1911. The grip safety actually makes it more clumsy. I don't believe a hammer down 1911 is safer. Not all 1911's have firing pin safeties, so it doesn't seem advisable.
As for a decocker (not in any 1911 single action variant I know of), it does not bypass any trigger safety. I assume this is for a DA/SA like a CZ-75 or Beretta. These guns typically have firing pin safeties and are designed to allow hammer down carry.

[45auto]

As many have said, I think the 1911 is not the best choice if you want to carry hammer down with no safety. In fact, it would be my last choice in that manner.

The Para LDA style guns may be better if you want a 1911 "style" feel with a double action type of trigger.

Otherwise any "modern" double/safe action gun would be better.

Good luck

[Gewehr98]

With their goofy forward-mounted rear sights and cut-away slide behind the sights? Just a few guesses as to why that rear sight and slide was modified that way- anybody? Buehler, Buehler? :scrutiny:

[Handy]

EJ,

The danger of a muzzle drop AD has nothing to do with the position of the hammer. A cocked and locked series 70 will fire if dropped hard enough on the muzzle because the impact is driving the firing pin, not the hammer. In Cond 2, the hammer is already as far forward as it's going to get, it can't drive the firing pin any further.


Cond. 2 always upsets 1911 buffs. It's a silly worry:

1. If you can't trust yourself to safely lower the hammer in a benign environment, why do you trust yourself to operate the safety in a gunfight? Think about it. Take your time and use both hands.

2. The 1911 was designed with an inertial firing pin so it could be carried hammer down and be drop resistant on the hammer. JMB and the Army Cavlary assumed it would be carried Cond. 2, Cond. 1 being a later "innovation".

3. Plenty of other guns were also designed to by manually decocked on to an inertial firing pin without a block. The older CZ-75 and Beretta 92 being two prominent examples.

This rampant hoplophobia in the 1911 crew is really surprising.


Carry the gun hammer down if you want- that's the way guns of this type have been carried for most of the century. It's still a better method cond.3 and needing two hands. An ambi safety is also a great idea.

[Sean Smith]

So is the "rampant holophobia" of the "Cocked and Locked is SCARY" crew. Not saying YOU are one, Handy, just a general observation.

[tetchaje1]

EJ,
I think that anybody who is familiar with the design of the 1911 will agree that it is far more dangerous to carry Cond. 2 than Cond. 1. because you have to pull the trigger in order to get the hammer to drop down to the resting position. Whether it is Series 80 or Series 70 doesn't matter in this case because when pulling the trigger on the 80 the firing pin block is disengaged anyway. I would never under any circumstances advocate Cond. 2 carry for that reason.

If the people here don't feel comfortable with seeing the hammer back on their 1911, perhaps they should reconsider their choice of carry weapon, or at the very least, they should carry Cond. 3. However, this is far slower to get into action than a DA/SA or DAO weapon where you just draw and pull the trigger.

We like the 1911 because there are few other choices out there that have such a positive trigger engagement for the first shot. I'm no slouch with my SIG or my HK, but it just isn't a 1911 trigger.

If you like Series 70 1911s (like me :) ) then you just make fer durn sure that you recognize its weaknesses and adjust your gun handling to account for them.

[Mute]

Condition 1 or condition 3. Forget about the "experts" who proclaim the greatness of condition 2 carry. No reason for it. No benefit. No advantage. Plenty of disadvantages.

[EJ]

I personally feel more comfortable with ANY 1911 in ANY condition of carry than a GLock-- (oops now I get flamed :rolleyes: )
Just me-- And I love my Series '70 guns as well as my series '80.

Just keep your finger off the trigger and any 1911 is safe--
I do prefer cocked and locked carry--
But-- it did/does cause civillian consternation by the uninformed when you carry Cocked and Locked in uniform--
That's not a problem for me anymore--

I'm a CPA now -- So I don't have to worry if others think my openly carried cocked and locked 1911 is safe or not-- I don't have to walk around that way any more--:D :

[TheFrontRange]

Only a handful of times when I've carried my 1911 around in a fanny pack that was NOT around my waist have I gone Condition Three; otherwise, it's cocked-and-locked carry for me in a strong-side OWB holster. Also when the weapon is not on my person, i.e., "put up" at home in between outings or overnight, I do put it in Condition Three.

Along the lines of EJ's comments in a previous post, I have had someone at the range ask me if I knew what I was doing, "handling that gun of mine with the hammer cocked back like that all the time." :D

Manipulating a 1911 into and out of Condition Two is not something I've ever even attempted...there's just no reason for it for me.

[Handy]

Mute,

Could you touch on some of the "advantages" of condition 3 over cond. 2?

As I understand it, both conditions involve an uncocked mainspring, making handling ND's almost impossible in both cases.

Cond. 3 requires two hands to make the weapon serviceable. What is the advantage?


Are you guys really that scared of manually lowering a hammer? There are several classes of weapons where this is the only safe carry option (revolvers, CZ-75, lever rifles, shotguns with hammers).

If you want to talk handling AD's, consider dropping the slide to load the 1911 and sear bounce. You are much more likely to have the weapon go off during this process than carefully lowering the hammer.

I'm not really for or against cond. 2 in this pistol. But the bugaboo that seems to be attached to doing what JMB intended is really ridiculous.

[bountyhunter]

"what is the danger level of an ND on a typical 1911 when one is in the pipe and the hammer is down instead of cocked and locked."

A lot of danger in the process of getting the hammer down on a live round. After that, the AD danger is actually pretty low as long as you don't cock it until you are ready to fire. The hammer rests on the frame in the forward position so it will take a good whack and still not propel the firing pin into the hammer. If yours has a series 80 safety, it is impossible to cause the FP to move until the trigger is pulled.

[bountyhunter]

"Are you guys really that scared of manually lowering a hammer? There are several classes of weapons where this is the only safe carry option (revolvers, CZ-75, lever rifles, shotguns with hammers)."

The CZ has a frame mounted safety and can be carried cocked and locked. Some models have a decocker.

"If you want to talk handling AD's, consider dropping the slide to load the 1911 and sear bounce. You are much more likely to have the weapon go off during this process than carefully lowering the hammer."

Actually, it's nearly impossible to have a properly set up 1911 discharge that way because even if the hammer bounces away from the sear on the full cock notch, the "half cock" or "safety" notch on the hammer will catch it unless the sear tip has just broken off.

Carefully lowering a hammer is just plain dangerous. You have to thumb the hammer all the way back, then pull the trigger, and then gradually lower the hammer with the thumb. That last step can be the killer if the hammer has oil on it and slips from under the thumb. It can be done, it's just very dangerous.

[Handy]

then gradually lower the hammer with the thumb. That last step can be the killer if the hammer has oil on it and slips from under the thumb. It can be done, it's just very dangerous.

You're right, that is stupid and dangerous. But instead of handling the 1911 like Wyatt Earp would, use the off hand to lower the hammer. Using the thumb and forefinger, it's almost impossible to screw up.

The Witness (CZ clone) manual even describes the process. Finger in front of hammer, thumb behind. Once you're beyond the half cock notch the hammer doesn't have enough inertia to drive the firing pin.

The CZ-75 design went 30 years without a decocker and WITH a DA trigger. It's meant to be carried hammer down, it's meant to be decocked manually. So was the 1911. And Beretta/Taurus 92.

[lazhuward]

I have to backup Handy here.

About a month ago, I got my first CZ pistol: a CZ-40B. The gun works like many other CZs; you can carry cocked-and-locked, or you can manually decock for a DA first shot.

Initially, the thought of decocking without using a mechanical decocker was very scary! After practicing on an empty chamber for awhile though, I feel confident that I can decock without causing an AD. My CZ has a firing pin block, but I’m not sure that makes much difference in the decocking procedure. It does have an inertial firing pin, like the 1911. You have to pay attention to what you’re doing, and it requires some skill, but manually decocking doesn’t have to be dangerous.

I also don’t think that carrying cocked-and-locked is dangerous.

So, the debate between condition one and condition two carry of a 1911 is not about safety. It’s about which maneuver is easier: thumbing the safety off or cocking the hammer before you fire.

During the first part of the last century, I’d bet that most people thought that hammer down on a loaded chamber was better than cocked-and-locked carry. However, cocked-and-locked seemed to become popular around the ‘60s, and remains so today.

If you can’t flip off the safety easily (as the original poster couldn’t, since he’s left-handed and doesn’t have an ambi safety), then you might want to experiment with condition two carry. Or, if you think that racking the slide is easier than the above two options, then you might consider condition three carry.

[SodaPop]

I must admit that I was chicken when i first got my Colt series 80. I was afraid the gun might go off when it was "cocked and locked." I carried it around the house "unloaded" just so I got use to knowing the gun wasn't going to go off unless I de-activated the thumb safety; and pulled the trigger.:D

I've heard of more AD from Glocks than any other semi-auto out there.

[EJ]

I've heard of more AD from Glocks than any other semi-auto out there. (SodaPop)





If people carried 1911s around cocked and unlocked they'ld be goin' off too:D

[10-Ring]

It's a relatively inexpensive upgrade to have an ambi-safety installed to your 1911 and condition 1 is the mode of carry it was designed for & most safe in :)

[Mute]

Did I say there was an advantage to condition 3 carry? I said there's no advantage to condition 2.

Cond. 3 requires two hands to make the weapon serviceable.

Big deal. You should use to hands to shoot, if the choice is there. No big deal using two hands to activate the gun. The Israelis do it all the time. BTW, you can use one hand to get a condition 3 gun into ready.

Using the thumb and forefinger, it's almost impossible to screw up.

Tell that to Murphy. (Of Murphy's Law fame, in case you're wondering).

Finally, if you have the hammer down on a live round, now instead of just having to worry about an AD when dropping on muzzle (extremely rare event), you'd also have to worry about bumping the gun on the other end (hammer end).

If you want to talk handling AD's, consider dropping the slide to load the 1911 and sear bounce.

You must be thinking of doing this on an unloaded gun because dropping the slide and letting it pick a round out of the magazine can't generate enough momentum to cause the sear bounce you're referring to.

Lastly, what reason is there to carry in condition 2? If you really need to get the gun into action that quickly, what possible advantage does condition 2 have over condition 1? You think a person who can't safely lower a hammer in calm conditions also can't be trusted to disengage the safety? You're probably right. That person can't be helped with any condition of carry. He should just buy a Glock. A person who practices enough should have no problem with disengaging the thumb safety. That person has no reason I can think of to use condition 2.

Sure, you can lower a hammer on a live round safely. You can also violate any one of the 4 basic rules of gun safety and still be "safe". Doesn't mean you should.

Now as to JMB designing the 1911 to be carried in condition 2. Could the switch to a thumb safety possibly be due to the fact that they had problems with troops carrying in condition 2? Try this excercise. Run around or ride on a horse and try to get the gun into action with a 1911 in condition 1, then in condition 2. Which do you think will be easier? You get a full and properly gripped index with condition 1. You can't do that with condition 2 unless you have really large hands and long fingers.

Now tell me. What reason is there to carry in condition 2?

Yes I do believe that cocked and locked is the best way to carry a single action semi-auto, but if a person is so paranoid as to believe that he shouldn't carry that way, condition 2 is not the way to go.

[Edward429451]

Now I'm no expert and I'm not trying to talk anyone into or out of carrying any particular way, I'll leave that to you guys. I would like to make a minor point since condition 2 is being considered.

If you choose to carry cond. 2, is it reasonable to assume that you will practice this 'readiness drill' or whatever by doing it hundreds or thousands of times (dry) while at home etc.?

If no, shame on you. If so...consider that when you thumb cock a 1911 style gun you are dragging metal where it should not be being dragged. (huh?). When you cycle the slide to cock it the disconnector is pushed down disengaging the sear so you have no dragging of metal that destroys your fine trigger job. (I read an article on this a few years ago and am going on memory so go easy on me if I get a point slightly skewed. Maybe a gunsmith type will expound on this issue with greater clarity than I.)

Lots of you guys go for the high end 1911's to 'have the best' and so forth so this may be worth considering if you'd like to keep your trigger in the same shape as when it left Mr. Custom's shop.
In my mind the 1911 is not made to be thumb cocked for this reason. First chambering is done by a cycle of the slide and subsequent shots are self fed through slide function, each time disconnector action disengages the sear allowing it to drop out of contact with the hammer. I hope I got that correct.

You can of course thumb cock to your hearts desire and in a SD situation it probably will not matter one hoot one way or the other in being able to defend yourself. BUT, your 'glass rod' trigger action will go away with each thumb cock. Clarifications welcome.

[Handy]

Mute,

You are the one who said cond. 1 OR 3 was preferable to condition 2. So I asked what that advantage is.

Personally, I think Cond. 3 is of little value. You may as well walk around with the mag in a pocket. A pistol is a handgun not a handsgun. You're other hand is for fending off attackers, supporting your body and reloading. If you have the luxury, it can also be used for aiming.

No one is arguing that 2 is better than 1.


As far as sear bounce goes, this is normally experienced during shooting and results in a double. Like loading, that involves chambering a round as well.


If you want to talk about Murphy, why do you carry a gun that has a safety? Get a DAO. I will not accept that a person can train themselves to get the safety off under stress, yet can't manage to carefully lower the hammer in their own home.


As far as drop safety goes, that has been addressed at length already. There is no way a gun dropped hammer down can drive the firing pin up. The firing pin is being driven away from the bullet not toward it.


This is not a safety issue. This is a personal taste thing. There is zero reason that cond. 2 is LESS safe than any other carry mode. The weapon is far more usefull than in Cond. 3, but does not require the handling care of 1.

[Hypnogator]

I'll weigh in and answer Gewehr98's post, since no one else bit. I have an early Detonics .45 that I picked up at the factory in Seattle, back when I was a CID Special Agent at Ft. Lewis. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

Anyway, believe it or not, the rear of the slide was beveled, and the hammer unusually shaped so that it could be carried in Condition 2, then cocked by "wiping" the hammer on one's pantsleg. Supposedly done at the suggestion of a potential foreign military buyer, who referred to the old Polish Radom pistol which was configured that way so that Cavalry officers could cock their pistols by "wiping" them on their legs during cavalry charges! Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and I'd much rather have the extra inch of sight radius, but the lowered rear of the slide does make the weapon more concealable in an angled belt holster, as the most critical dimension is the angular distance between a line drawn from the bottom of the muzzle to the butt. Thus, the lowered rear of the slide will cause less of a bulge under the wearer's coat.

One more thing of interest: What you are describing as "Condition 1" is what I was taught was "Condition 1-a." Condition 1 is cocked and unlocked. FWIW, I generally carry my Detonics in Condition 1, as long as I have a holster with a thumb-break strap securely between the hammer and firing pin. And the Detonics doesn't have a grip safety, either. Never had an AD with this carry mode, through years of intermittent carry.

I would second the advice that Michiganfan get an ambidexterous safety, however he may wish to consider carrying his 1911 in true Condition 1, if he has the proper holster and scrupulously obeys the rules of gun safety.

[Handy]

I had always heard cocked/unlocked as Condition 0. Some Euro Swat types employed this method with BHPs.