Anyone Else See This at UPS?


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StopTheGrays
January 21, 2005, 01:36 PM
I was at the local UPS depot this morning. While waiting for the counterperson to fetch the package I was expecting I started looking at some of the memos posted near the counter. One of them dated Sept 20, 2004 stated that UPS does not ship automatic weapons. It went on to describe an automatic weapon as any weapon that was designed to "fire more than one round when the trigger is pulled"---or words to close to that.

So I guess what I want to know is:
1. Anyone else notice this?
2. Did that mean before Sept 20th, 2004 you could ship full auto weapons?
3. If you ship an AK with a US made semi auto receiver does that technically violate the policy?

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Telperion
January 21, 2005, 02:08 PM
You didn't get the memo about all the machineguns that would be flooding the streets after the AWB expired? :confused: They must be worried about that. ;)

Kharn
January 21, 2005, 02:20 PM
Since most transferable full autos go for over $3k, I'm not suprised they refuse to ship them. Employee theft of firearms is already a big problem, imagine the hassles if an employee walked out with somebody's Form4'ed Mac10 under their coat?

Kharn

thatguy
January 21, 2005, 02:24 PM
So, how does one legally transfer a full auto gun? Does anyone allow shipping or just UPS banning by policy?

kfranz
January 21, 2005, 02:30 PM
USPS and FedEx come to mind

StopTheGrays
January 21, 2005, 02:39 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention that there was a image of an AK on the memo.

El Tejon
January 21, 2005, 02:52 PM
Stop, UPS has "lost" several Title II weapons, including a few transferables, in recent years.

lbmii
January 22, 2005, 01:14 PM
Last week I shipped my Kel Tec 3AT and my Rossi 357 by UPS by their lowest ground rate.

As far as they need to know I was shipping Machine Parts.

Deavis
January 22, 2005, 01:41 PM
As far as they need to know I was shipping Machine Parts.

As far as the government is concerned, you are a criminal.

Not judging, just saying that you are risking jail time over $10-$15 in shipping costs. You have to decide if the savings is worth the risk.

Mylhouse
January 22, 2005, 01:46 PM
How is he a criminal? That is UPS' policy, not the .gov AFAIK....

Deavis
January 22, 2005, 01:54 PM
Here you go...

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922(a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

Gunsnrovers
January 22, 2005, 01:59 PM
In regards to a nonlicensee, the BATF FAQ page is pretty clear on this:

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

pete f
January 22, 2005, 02:43 PM
I have a very good friend who's father(who is elderly and not the sharpest anymore) asked the Local postmaster if he could ship two shotguns to his son via USPS, the postmaster said yes but both boxes arrived empty, with stickers saying that the arms had been confiscated. Upon presenting the now empty boxes to the postmaster, and asking ***, the postmaster said to effect " gee I guess you can't do that any more!" upon asking for compensation or retrieval of the firearms, he was told the USPS would destroy the guns. The guns were two high grade belgian Superposed.

Remander
January 22, 2005, 04:56 PM
This debate pops up a lot. I think the ATF's FAQ page overgeneralizes with its statement that "Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm."

It looks to me like the actual statute and regs require notification only when you are shipping to someone who is not FFL or otherwise licensed.

Here is what the actual statute, 18 USC 922(e), says:

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.


The other section cited in the FAQ, 922 (a)(2)(A), lets dealers ship repaired or replaced guns back to the owners. It says:

(a) It shall be unlawful--

(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that--

(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

Now, the regulation cited, 28 CFR 178.31, has been redesignated as part of the ATF restructuring per the Homeland Security Act. It is now found at 28 CFR 478.31. It says:

ยง 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped:
Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:

Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.

******************

Accordingly, the blanket statement that "Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm" is not supported by the cited statutes and regulation. If there is another source for this asserted law, someone please cite it.

The laws cited above indicate these rules: Shipping to Ruger for repairs or FFL gun dealer for return; no notice of contents required. Shipping to your cousin or a private buyer who has no FFL; notice of contents required.

lbmii
January 22, 2005, 05:18 PM
The law is grammatically confusing.


It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;


It reads to me that you must notify the carrier if you are shipping to a person other than a licensed holder. I would think that a Judge would see how it reads that way as well.

Regardless, let the UPS cops arrest me.

I looked all over the UPS store and saw nothing concerning the shipping of a handgun. I singed no documents concerning the shipping of a handgun.

However just to CYA I dissasembled both the Kel Tec and the Rossi and packed them in dissasembled parts form. Therefore, I shipped machine parts.

This whole shipping nonsence is nothing more than a backdoor way to inhibit the free commerce of handguns. The USPS, UPS and Federal Express can Kiss My :what:

sturmruger
January 22, 2005, 05:56 PM
I have shipped and recieved several handguns via UPS ground shipping with no problems. I am sick of them making everyone ship overnight. If I had a very expensive gun like a Belgian Shotgun I would probably ship it over night just to be safe, but for a Glock or somethign I just send it ground.

Standing Wolf
January 22, 2005, 11:31 PM
Federal Express loses far fewer firearms than U.P.S., and has a better attitude toward firearms owners, anyway. I didn't say Federal Express is good: merely less horrendous than U.P.S.

Sam
January 22, 2005, 11:44 PM
Standing Wolf,
I'm real glad you didn't say FEDEX was good.

They have royally screwed up every shipment and I do mean every shipment.
Bad enough that I have terminated my business with 1 distributor that only ships FEDEX. They refused to ship UPS to me, "But it's our preferred carrier" gee thats too bad, Goodbye!

The last fine fiasco was 5000 rds of Federal .223. Somebody got the funny idea that it should be locked in thier security cage untill they could figure it out. Took 11 days to sort that one out.

Sam

Zach S
January 22, 2005, 11:55 PM
FedEx has a bad habit of leaving my shipments on someone elses porch. Its happened the past three out of four times that they've delivered a package to me, the only time they got it right was when I ordered some mustang flowtubes from Jegs. UPS always leaves them on my porch, or a note on the front door saying when theyll try again.

Andrew Rothman
January 24, 2005, 06:35 PM
Coincidentally, I just read this on John Farnam's site. I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but here it is:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2004/29Oct04.html
29Oct04

Beware of UPS Stores!

Recently, I attempted to ship a broken gun via a UPS Store in a large, metr o area in the Midwest. Part were dissembled, and the weapons itself was broken. In fact, I was shipping it back to the manufacturer for repair. I've done this same thing many times.

Unknown to me, the local PD has instituted a "turn in your neighbor" policy, where UPS Store employees are instructed to pilfer any package they consider "suspicious." Such pilfering is done out of sight of the shipper and without his knowledge or consent. It is clearly illegal, but nobody seems to care. I got caught in the trap, and my package ended up with the local PD. I was never notified by UPS or the UPS Store, and, when I called them, they played dumb and claimed to know nothing about it. I called a number they gave me, and it turned out to be the number of the PD. This bureau seems intent on manufacturing criminals where there are none, and they look upon all gun owners as outlaws.

In any event, I got my package back, but it took six weeks. The UPS Store did fully refund all shipping and packaging charges. My letter and calls to the PD all went unanswered for weeks. Only when I retained a local lawyer and had him write a pointed letter did they suddenly learn how to use a telephone! The fact that I am also a police officer did not seem to do any thing in my favor.

When one tries to ship a gun, and he tells the shipper it is a gun, the gun will routinely be stolen. I've always chosen to go low profile. I am still persuaded that is the best way to go. However, UPS and UPS Stores are particularly vehement gun haters, and this city has a gun-hating, gun-owner-harassing agenda, which is enforced as if it were law.

All is well that ends well, but there are some important lessons:

>Never ship anything important via UPS. FedEx is much friendlier, and they

seem happier to have your business.

>Don't use UPS Stores. There are plenty of other places that are m ore agreeable and don't ask questions.

>Whatever shipping place you use, always pay with a credit card. Knowing you can later contest a charge makes employees less likely to mess up a sal e.

>Always insure the package. Again, they don't like to mess up a done deal.

>Never leave a shipping place without a receipt, and a tracking number. Again, once the package is in the system, they tend to leave it alone. Don 't just drop it off and believe them when they say, "We'll take care of it."

>Have the package wrapped at one place, and than take it to another for actual shipping. Don't perform both functions at the same place.

>Don't ship from any big, metro area. The local PD may be bored!

>Don't have anything on the package marking or label that suggest it contains a gun. Words like "gunsmithing," "arms, " "gunworks," etc are all an invitation to pilferage.

>If store employees start asking nosy questions, don't answer them. Take your package and leave immediately.

It won't get better. We warriors have to find, as always, ways to work around whatever barriers are erected.

/John


He wrote the next day:

30Oct04

Nearly everyone responding reported negative experiences with UPS and particularly UPS Stores. They are to be avoided like the plague! Additional shipping tips:

>Additional words to avoid: "Glock," SIG," Smith & Wesson," etc. Too recognizable.

>Never tell anyone what is in the box. I ship lot of "machine parts" and "electronic components." >Never check the "Hazmat" box on the label

>Best day to ship is Monday. The system is busy. Everything keeps moving. Worst day is Friday. Your package will be stagnant over the weekend. Lots of opportunities for sticky fingers to find it.

>Always ship overnight. That way, you'll know right away if something went awry.

/John

MAKOwner
January 24, 2005, 08:13 PM
Yeah we've hashed this crap out on just about every gun board I've been on. The ATF FAQ is incorrect about the "required to inform the contract carrier" bit and supposedly has admitted so to someone who wrote them about this (didn't see the response myself), meanwhile they manage to never get around to changing their FAQ.

The text of the law is pretty clear that you're only required to inform when not shipping to a FFL/Manufacturer (which before anyone brings it up you can ship to non-licensees in at least one specific situation). I personally don't want anyone involved with UPS or Fedex to know whats in the package, and it's more than the $15-$20 you save by not shipping overnight air. If you inform you'll either get a bigass hassle trying to ship it to start with since they don't even know their own policy or someone will steal the contents. Forget that... I believe if you're using the USPS however you do have to inform...

Of course if it does get lost or stolen anyway the process of getting the insurance money should be a fun ordeal indeed... I've shipped several firearms UPS Ground and so far zero problems.

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