[The Rabbi]

I have a good friend in Germany and we email often. Recently I sent her Oleg's poster on guaranteeing rights (see related link) since it's my picture there. She sent back a letter and here is her response:

Wir haben ein kleines Problem mit Deiner Begeisterung fuer WAffen! Hier in Deutschland ist es unter "gebildeten Menschen" die nicht durch ihren Beruf dazu gezwungen sind, undenkbar, Freude am Umgang mit Waffen zu haben. Die ganze Erziehung ist sehr pazifistisch, man gibt man gibt Kindern keine Spielzeugwaffen, und junge Männer "aus gutem Haus" verweigern den
Armeedienst. Ich glaube, Du musst uns mal erklären, wie die Situation in den USA ist, und was die orthodoxen Rabbiner dazu sagen! Hier heißt es immer:
Gewalt erzeugt Gegengewalt, also Hände weg von Waffen!
und nun haben wir einen Freund, der leidenschaftlich schießt! Unglaublich!!


To those who actually speak this language I apologize in advance for my translation:

We have a little problem with your enthusiasm for guns. Here in Germany among "educated people" who do not need them for work it is unthinkable to go armed in the street. [Its also illegal but she doesnt say that-TR] The whole training is pacifist: we dont give kids toy guns and young men from "good families" decline army duty. You should tell us, I think, what the situation in the U.S. is and what the Orthodox Rabbis say about it. Here it is not so [and I am not sure how to translate this part] and now we have a friend enthusiastically shoots. Incredible!

So what do you say to someone like that without sounding like a yahoo?
Thanks in advance.

[Rickstir]

Ask her to remember that shortly after he took office, Hitler took away all the guns. Want something like that to happen again? :what:

[reagansquad]

Most, if not all of Germany's pre-WW2 civilian disarmament took place under the Weimar Republic. It's the neighboring countries that Hitler disarmed...

As for the response to the original poster's friend in Germany... The modern RKBA in the United States is mostly a symbolic gesture that the political power rests with the people and that the United States government will always exist at the consent of the governed. In addition to this, America's drive to be as free a nation as possible warrants the right to defend one's property and family from anyone who would seek to do that person great harm. In the United States, this right of the individual to maintain his self-determinate power is a mark of honor, freedom and political stability.


...If that was terribly, don't blame me. I haven't slept in 36 hours or so. Stupid job.

[R.H. Lee]

Tell him to STFU, he doesn't have a say in the matter. His country started and LOST two world wars in the last 100 years, exterminated MILLIONS of people, and he's lucky it still exists as a viable place that can support life, at least for the present time, considering it has become such a socialist hellhole, its days are numbered.

[P95Carry]

Just as a compare, got this off a translation site ... We have a small problem with your enthusiasm for weapons! Here in Germany it is not among "educated humans" by its occupation to
it is forced, inconceivablily, To have joy in handling weapons. The whole education is very pazifistisch, one does not give one gives to children toy weapons, and young men "from good house" refuse that
Army service. I believe, You must explain us times, like the situation in the USA is, and which those say to orthodox Rabbiner to it! Here it always means:
Force produces Gegengewalt, thus hands away of weapons!
and now we have a friend, that shoots passionate! Unbelievably!! Not sure if I am interpreting right tho.

[The Rabbi]

Darn, lost my last response.

Riley, you've missed the point. First, its a woman writing. Second, she isnt telling anyone what to do, just expressing her reservations.

P95: the sentence means "Force results in Counter-force so hands off guns!" A common enough belief that guns cause violence since they are associated with violence. Not too many people here buy that of course but the question is what to tell someone who does.

[P95Carry]

Oh OK - that helps.

Of course this guns=violence thing is what so many present as their ''argument'' - almost world wide ... forgetting all too often that the gun just happens to the oft chosen tool of the bad guy ... after which it seems (to us at least) pretty logical to be able to answer in kind.... as should be the case for all lawful folks, anywhere.

[raz-0]

It's as easy to not shoot someone as it is to not stab them, not beat, or not crush their skull with a brick. Violence existed long before the gun, and will exist long after.

[Chipperman]

Show them this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1442617,00.html


The Sunday Times - Britain

January 16, 2005

4,000 shot in Britain in a year


Despite the UK citizens being disarmed, the gun violence is increasing. The same would happen in America. Germany is a different situation, coming just out of WWII under occupation. I don't know what the gun crime level is like in Germany, but tell your friend that not all countries are the same. If the average German can go without any protection and be safe, that is nice. It is not so in many other countries.

The bottom line is that guns are not the cause of violence and crime, but it can be a solution.

[Phil Ca]

Rabbi: Tell your friend to peruse the net for some German firearms web-sites. I belong to two german forums and the firearms friendly culture is alive and well. there are also several different firearms related magazines that are available on newstands.

When I was stationed there in the mid 1950's there were few people that had legal firearms. I was required to carry openly when I went across the city to the post that had a range. One time on the street car I was with a friend who wore his Colt SAA with 7" barrel in a lefy hand buscadero holster. I ws carrying my M1911 .45 pistol in a German style police holster with a spare magazine and full flap. We had to wear suits, white shirts and ties since Seventh Army Regulations were in effect. Two nuns were watching us apprehensively and I saw one turn to the other and say in a low tone of voice, "Chee-kaa-go Gangsters!!!" We just smiled.

I had a friend in the German Bundeswehr that was stationed with the Honor Guard at the Ministry of Defense. He had a P-08 pistol in 9mm and when he came home on leave liked to go to the range in his uniform. he insisted that I wear my uniform as well. We would go to the raange at Coleman Barracks and shoot for an hour. We would then put our pistols in the trunk of his VW Beetle and go to town. He had an authentic WW2 holster and a belt. The belt belonged to his father who was a finance officer in the German Army during WW2.

It is noteworthy to mention that now as it was then in the 50's, the carrying of a firearm or possessing it illegaly was still just that; "Illegal" and there were and are stiff penalties for violations of these laws. The criminal element has never been concerned with that small fact and they continue to ignore it.

Lots of luck in trying to convince her. If she happens to be Jewish then she needs to re-read what went on from the early 30's through early 1945.

[R.H. Lee]

Riley, you've missed the point. That's not unusual. I do that all the time. :o

First, she's a product of a society that still bears guilt for what their fathers and grandfathers did. Lifelong societal influences are not easily breached. You could go through the elements of affirmative self defense as a natural right; that no society, no matter how well educated or enlightened, is exempt from the predations of criminals; that an armed populace serves as a deterrent to violent crime, etc. You're more than likely to get into a protracted back and forth discussion with you discussing facts and reality and her hypothecating how things should be, if only......

Good luck. :)

[owen]

what about the hundreds and hundreds of shooting clubs in Germany? I'm thinking that there is a whole subculture in Germany that she is completely clueless about.

[Arc-Lite]

Germany is Germany...and America is America... things are different, I do not think it is wise to be placed in a position that requires defense, when the basic understanding is not there, and assumptions run high. Germany has many social problems...as well, as every country in the world. It makes many Europeans crazy, to hear of our gun laws, but it is funny, how many dream of the blessings of america. Also keep in mind, the language differences, and that a nice Germany, a nice educated human, from a good family....can sound very very very RUDE....in their most pleasant of days, it is the nature of the beast, and of the language. Blow it off....and ask her of the immigration issues of Germany....or the gangs of skin heads.

[TallPine]

young men from "good families" decline army duty
Well of course they can afford to do that because we've had OUR troops over there defending them for the last 60 years :rolleyes:

[M67]

I think she is wrong about "die junge Männer "aus gutem Haus" das den Armeedienst verweigern". I'm pretty sure I've met a number of German men from "good homes" who have done military service. Unless of course they have faked their civilized upbringing. :)

More to the point, maybe you should tell her that Germans buy as many guns as Americans, in relation to the size of the population. Yes, really. I'm busy at work right now :D , but you should be able to search for a source on this, maybe some UN or EU report on small arms, I don't remember where I last saw figures on this.

[dairycreek]

Ask your friend to read "Mein Kampf" but don't be surprised if she won't! Current German history books used in schools don't deal with WW2 and particularly, the Holocaust. What she wrote (I read German) is pretty much the same thing Hitler wrote in the 1930's :evil:

[The Rabbi]

I'll add this is a woman in her 50s and Jewish so she sure doesnt need a lecture from me on what happened.
I dont doubt that military service is frowned on. Germany unfortunately seems to be messed up in a number of ways, stemming from their experience. For example, capital punishment is strictly off limits. I think even suggesting it marks you as a skinhead or something. Similarly what we call patriotism here is seen as jingoism, the provence of yayhoos and lower class types.

As for the response to the original poster's friend in Germany... The modern RKBA in the United States is mostly a symbolic gesture that the political power rests with the people and that the United States government will always exist at the consent of the governed. In addition to this, America's drive to be as free a nation as possible warrants the right to defend one's property and family from anyone who would seek to do that person great harm. In the United States, this right of the individual to maintain his self-determinate power is a mark of honor, freedom and political stability.

Thats probably the best response I have seen so far. A darn good summation as a matter of fact. Anyone help me translating that into German?

[MrMurphy]

Wish I could, but I barely speak German, much less write it, and it's been years since I've spoken German.

[R.H. Lee]

Anyone help me translating that into German?
Als für die Antwort auf den Freund des ursprünglichen Posters in Deutschland.. Der modern RKBA in den Vereinigten Staaten ist größtenteils eine symbolische Gebärde, die die politische Kraft bei den Leuten und liegt, dass die Vereinigten Staaten Regierung immer an der Zustimmung vom regierten existieren wird. Zuzüglich dies der Antrieb von Amerika zu sein als zu befreien eine Nation als mögliche Berechtigungen die das Recht zu verteidigen ein Eigentum und Familie von irgendjemand der würde suchen, jener Person großen Schaden zu machen. In den Vereinigten Staaten dieses Recht vom Individuum beizubehalten, dass seine Selbst bestimmte Kraft eine Markierung der Ehre, Freiheit und politischer Stabilität ist.

As for the response to the original poster's friend in Germany... The modern RKBA in the United States is mostly a symbolic gesture that the political power rests with the people and that the United States government will always exist at the consent of the governed. In addition to this, America's drive to be as free a nation as possible warrants the right to defend one's property and family from anyone who would seek to do that person great harm. In the United States, this right of the individual to maintain his self-determinate power is a mark of honor, freedom and political stability.

from here: http://ets.freetranslation.com/

[PowderBurn]

We have a 17-year old German exchange student staying with us for the school year. He had NEVER fired a gun before I took him out to the range one day last fall. He absolutely LOVES it and wants to go whenever he can. So far he's fired most of my handguns of various calibers at indoor and outdoor ranges. We've also shot through a box of clays. Percussion revolvers will be next on the agenda.

I asked him if he was going to tell his parents about his shooting experiences, and his response was a very emphatic "NO!". They would be very angry, he said.

You can take the boy out of Germany, AND take the Germany out of the boy!

[rick newland]

I was stationed in Germany for 15 years in the Army and the Air Force. After I retired from the Air Force I stayed for five more years. The reasons? our dogs were kicking ass in dog shows and hunting and shooting is great even though the German gun laws suck. Someone mentioned 100's and 100's of gun clubs, nope I would say 1000's and 1000's and they are very busy every day. I was a member of a German gun club and shot on their "A" team. We traveled to other clubs for pistol competitions. I had a great time. I miss Germany, but I much perfer Alabama where I can carry a gun CCW.

[Roadkill]

Rick, please contact me at sgtroadkill@yahoo.com, I don't want to get off topic here but would like to talk with you off forum.
Thanks

Rgg

[Standing Wolf]

In the United States, this right of the individual to maintain his self-determinate power is a mark of honor, freedom and political stability.

Yep. If Europe ever grows up, it will discover the same principles.

[reagansquad]

Quote:
As for the response to the original poster's friend in Germany... The modern RKBA in the United States is mostly a symbolic gesture that the political power rests with the people and that the United States government will always exist at the consent of the governed. In addition to this, America's drive to be as free a nation as possible warrants the right to defend one's property and family from anyone who would seek to do that person great harm. In the United States, this right of the individual to maintain his self-determinate power is a mark of honor, freedom and political stability.



Thats probably the best response I have seen so far. A darn good summation as a matter of fact. Anyone help me translating that into German?

Aww shucks... you're making me blush. :neener:

[Oleg Volk]

You can tell her that civilized people don't misuse guns or other weapons. If they are so civilized, then they can have guns for recreation and self-defense (against the few who aren't civilized and still try head-hunting, rape or other unwholesome activities).

[GigaBuist]

Ask your friend to read "Mein Kampf" but don't be surprised if she won't! I'd be REALLY surprised if she did! Last I knew you couldn't buy Mein Kampf in Germany. Flat out banned.

[WT]

We're talking about Germans?

They of all people should not have access to guns.

Never Again!

[Marko Kloos]

Gewalt erzeugt Gegengewalt, also Hände weg von Waffen!

Translates as,

"Violence generates counter-violence, so keep (your hands) away from guns!"

[The Rabbi]

We're talking about Germans?
They of all people should not have access to guns
Never Again!

Oh, Puleeze! :banghead:

[Siggyboy]

I lived and studied in Germany for a number of years and know exactly what your friend is talking about. Most Germans, especially the university types or urbanites, believe that guns are almost evil. They think that anyone who has an interest in guns must have some sort of psychological imbalance. A few have cited "Bowling for Colombine" to me, which I haven't seen yet. In any case, since the Nazi horror most Germans were brought up to think in pacifistic terms and to believe that weapons are bad, a necessary evil that only the Police or those currently serving in the military must unfortunately use. Most Germans cannot fathom the US gun culture...they call it "eine verrueckte Waffenbegeisterung".

[T.Stahl]

I'm a German and have to say that most of her points are not valid.
Wir haben ein kleines Problem mit Deiner Begeisterung fuer WAffen!
We're having a little Problem with your enthusiasm for guns!
Hier in Deutschland ist es unter "gebildeten Menschen" die nicht durch ihren Beruf dazu gezwungen sind, undenkbar, Freude am Umgang mit Waffen zu haben.
Here in Germany it is unthinkable for "educated" people - who don't have to handle guns as part of their profession - to feel joy when handling weapons.
Our gun-club is full of educated people. Studied people, engineers, people with doctor's degrees, executives, police officers, people working in the interior ministry, public servants,...
I don't know dumb, un-educated people in our club.
That people who enjoy shooting and guns are dumb is one of the usual, yet completely un-founded arguments against gun-owners.
Die ganze Erziehung ist sehr pazifistisch, man gibt man gibt Kindern keine Spielzeugwaffen, und junge Männer "aus gutem Haus" verweigern den
Armeedienst.
The whole education is very pacifistic, you don't give children toy-guns, and young men from a good family object to do military service.
I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of THR-members who don't give their children toy-guns either. My upbringing was rather pacifistic, too. I was told never to start violence, but that it's ok to defend myself and the innocent.
I did serve in the military and while on active duty and later in the reserve I met a lot of "young men from good families". And during my studies our dormitory was full of young men who had served, probably because most of them were engineers who tend to be more conservative.
Ich glaube, Du musst uns mal erklären, wie die Situation in den USA ist, und was die orthodoxen Rabbiner dazu sagen! Hier heißt es immer:
Gewalt erzeugt Gegengewalt, also Hände weg von Waffen!
und nun haben wir einen Freund, der leidenschaftlich schießt! Unglaublich!!
I think you should tell us what the situation in the USA is like and what orthodox rabbis think about it! Here the saying is: violence causes counter-violence, therefore keep your hands away from guns! And now we have a friend who just loves to shoot! Unbelievable!!

I know a lot of German antis myself. But they aren't very different from American antis.
There is indeed a whole lot of gun-clubs in Germany. In a club down in Heslach, a club which was founded more than half a millennium ago (!!), they have a map showing the locations of the single clubs in and around Stuttgart. There are dozens belonging to one shooting association alone! There are some more from the smaller associations as well.
Where in Germany does she live? Berlin perhaps?

By M67:
I'm pretty sure I've met a number of German men from "good homes" who have done military service. Unless of course they have faked their civilized upbringing. :)Thank you! John told me he likes shooting your Blackhawk. ;)

WT, my brother would call you a "Dummschwätzer"! :neener:

[Model520Fan]

I'll add this is a woman in her 50s and Jewish so she sure doesnt need a lecture from me on what happened.

Au contraire; she most certainly does. In fact, MOST Jews need a lecture on what happened. Some of us need our faces pushed into it repeatedly until we stop spewing such nonsense as she does. Educated, my a**. I'd trade a hundred educated idiots for a dozen self-respecting gun-toters any day of the week.

I can not say with certainty what is the best approach with this individual, although I lean towards RileyMc's first offering, gender corrected. However, I DO know that everything tried so far hasn't worked, so that should be a hint. By all means remind her that she's powerless to keep it from happening again.

A friend of mine who could not deny the logic of my pro-gun arguments once attempted to dismiss my position by saying, in Yiddish, "It's not a Jewish thing." To my regret, I was not swift enough to answer him, "You're right; dying in boxcars is a Jewish thing." Maybe it's just as well. His grandparents had. And he still hadn't learned a thing.

P. S. You could start by sending her RileyMc's answer and my answer, tell her that I spit on her education, and remind her what an education was worth during the mass murders in Cambodia.

P. P. S. Here is RileyMc's first answer, corrected for gender:

"Tell her to STFU, she doesn't have a say in the matter. Her country started and LOST two world wars in the last 100 years, exterminated MILLIONS of people, and she's lucky it still exists as a viable place that can support life, at least for the present time, considering it has become such a socialist hellhole, its days are numbered."

It is particularly appropriate despite your description of her as Jewish, since she seems to have adopted German attitudes.

[The Rabbi]

Reagansquad's answer was really more of a model of what I was looking for.
Model520fan's was a model of what I wasnt looking for. Not only would that end the conversation, that would likely end the friendship. And I'm sure she could care less what you think of her education. In fact your attitude will simply confirm that gun owners are all troglodytes. What I didnt want to have happen.

[Tamara]

Force results in Counter-force...

...which is the whole point behind RKBA. ;)

[trooper]

Wir haben ein kleines Problem mit Deiner Begeisterung fuer WAffen! Hier in Deutschland ist es unter "gebildeten Menschen" die nicht durch ihren Beruf dazu gezwungen sind, undenkbar, Freude am Umgang mit Waffen zu haben. Die ganze Erziehung ist sehr pazifistisch, man gibt man gibt Kindern keine Spielzeugwaffen, und junge Männer "aus gutem Haus" verweigern den
Armeedienst. Ich glaube, Du musst uns mal erklären, wie die Situation in den USA ist, und was die orthodoxen Rabbiner dazu sagen! Hier heißt es immer:
Gewalt erzeugt Gegengewalt, also Hände weg von Waffen!
und nun haben wir einen Freund, der leidenschaftlich schießt! Unglaublich!!


To those who actually speak this language I apologize in advance for my translation:

We have a little problem with your enthusiasm for guns. Here in Germany among "educated people" who do not need them for work it is unthinkable to go armed in the street. [Its also illegal but she doesnt say that-TR] The whole training is pacifist: we dont give kids toy guns and young men from "good families" decline army duty. You should tell us, I think, what the situation in the U.S. is and what the Orthodox Rabbis say about it. Here it is not so [and I am not sure how to translate this part] and now we have a friend enthusiastically shoots. Incredible

She's got no clue what she's talking about. I guess she only counts liberal, green-voting, treehugging PC people as "educated".

Maybe her own kids don't get to play with toy guns; others certainly do. It's true that most young men choose to opt out of basic military service but from what I've heard from my friends and former schoolmates their primary motivation is that they don't want to crawl through the mud and be yelled at by drill sergeants :evil:

There IS a gun culture in Germany which does even resemble its American counterpart in some ways. It's just considerably smaller and less obvious. Still, there are several million sports shooters, hunters and collectors in Germany. Shooting and hunting are ancient and cherished traditions especially among country people.


Regards,

Trooper

[PzGren]

First, Hitler did not disarm the Germans after getting into power, the Reichswaffengesetz of 1936 was the most liberal Germany ever had!!!! Hitler achieved mind-control, making gun control unnecessary.
Hitler did say himself that people are going to believe any lie if it is repeated often enough. The lie about Hitler banning guns proves it.

I left Germany in 1984 after growing up there, serving in the military and going to university. Germans had not always been anti-gun but became inceasingly so in the last thirty years. They started in the kindergardens and schools to tell children to be non-violent, that guns are evil. Now guns are strictly upper class, for hunting and exclusive clubs.

My children went to a kindergarden in Indiana in the mid nineties and toy guns were absolutely banned.

As to what tell your German friend; they are as devoted anti gunners as they were following the trend in the Third Reich. I gave up on the German Antis years ago.

[Archangel]

Force results in Counter-force...


...which is the whole point behind RKBA.

Exactly.

What do you do when someone comes to you with force, and you have nothing with which to offer counter-force? You become their slave, giving them everything that they demand, in exchange for the thin hope that they will not hurt / kill you when you have nothing left to give them, or when they become bored and decide to kill you just for the fun of it.

Equally applicable to individuals and goverments.

[jefnvk]

young men from "good families" decline army duty

Seems to me that happened in America at one time. Rich guys would send their servants or slaves instead of their sons. I don't think that the non-good families appreciated it much.

[caneman]

Only my second post, but here goes. I think if you go to www.babelfish.com they will translate a document up to 250 words for you. Good luck.

[trooper]

Yeah, but all these translation programs screw up as soon as the text gets a bit more complicated. While THR is mainly an American board, there are enough members from all over the world to ensure translation of many languages :)

I'll volunteer for German myself. ;)


Regards,

Trooper

[Model520Fan]

Reagansquad's answer was really more of a model of what I was looking for.
Model520fan's was a model of what I wasnt looking for. Not only would that end the conversation, that would likely end the friendship. And I'm sure she could care less what you think of her education. In fact your attitude will simply confirm that gun owners are all troglodytes. What I didnt want to have happen.

Certainly you are free to choose whatever style of communication you prefer, and I would agree that one generally catches more flies with honey than with vinegar. That is one of the reasons why I support Chabad.

However, you might want not only to consider tempering your words so that you don't lose her as a friend, but also to consider what are the limits of her expression which will still allow you to remain her friend. Ideally, you should both be able to express your opinions and interests.

BTW, I certainly would not be in a hurry to adjust my attitudes to accommmodate attitudes of a child of Jewish parents who remained in Germany (or, worse yet, moved there) after WWII. I'd want to know a little more about what is going on there, which, of course, you may already.

My remarks are not intended to be any sort of blanket condemnation of Germans, or even German intellectuals. In fact, I have a Jewish friend a generation older than I who spent the entire war in Berlin, his childhood home, hidden in a medical school by non-Jewish staff. Nevertheless, I think that anyone who lives in the U. S. can easily smell the danger of academic elitism. Regardless of my friend's experience, I do not consider it any wiser to tolerate such attitudes among Germans than among Americans.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Recommended reading: www.jpfo.org

[ScorpioVI]

Arbeit Macht Frei

[Shootcraps]

Arbeit Macht Frei


You're bad Scorpio!! ;) For those who don't know any German, this means "Work makes you Free". It's on the gates of the camp at Dachau.

Your friend is wrong, there is a very big gun culture in Germany. I saw many gorgeous shotguns in a store in Rothenburg od Tauber.

Germans still teach their children to be ashamed of Hitler and what he did.

[crazyXgerman]

allow me to slightly correct the translation of the letter:

"we have a problem with your enthusiasm for weapons. here in germany it is unthinkable amongst "educated people", who are not forced to due to their job, to enjoy handling weapons.

the entire education is peaceful, children are not given toy guns, and young men from "good families" refuse to serve in the army when drafted. i think you have to explain to us what the situation in the USA is like and what the orthodox rabbis have to say about that.

here it's always 'violence begets more violence, therefore hands off of guns!' and now we have a friend who is an enthusiastic shooter. unbelievable"


i was born and raised in germany, lived there for 23 years before i moved to the states. i was a member in a shooting club over there and have shot plenty of times. i have to fully agree with t. stahl - she's full of horse poo :)

there are many gun clubs with many members that are responsible adults from good families with a good education.

the people who refuse to serve their country when drafted and choose to perform "civil service" instead (meaning serve their time plus bonus time instead working in hospitals or retirement homes) are not "young mean from good families". they are either whiny treehuggers or scared little mama's boys.

on a side note, i know of many german guys who come to the states on vacation or business and inevitably get taken to the range by an american gun enthusiast to shoot a gun for the first time (and maybe only time) in their lives - and love it!

just like some people in germany choose not to raise their kids with guns and violence while some don't care, it's the same over here - no difference. some parents care, some don't.

the problem is that the average german is not allowed to have a gun. ignorance breeds intolerance in this case. germans are afraid of guns because they don't know anything about them.

your friend is no exception. given her ignorant position and the typical stubbornness of the average german, i'd say drop it, don't even try to convince her or change her opinion - you won't.

[trooper]

the problem is that the average german is not allowed to have a gun.

Not quite, but you're close enough. Theoretically, every sane adult without prior convictions could legally acquire a gun in Germany. He just needs to join a gun club or get a hunting license.

The problem is that both alternatives take a looong time (typically a year or longer), cost a considerable amount of money and include jumping through numerous bureaucratic hoops and loops which of course tends to drive people away from the idea of owning guns. I know a number of people who really wouldn't mind owning a gun and shooting it every now and then, but don't feel that it's worth to invest such a lot of time, money and effort.

Also a lot of people don't really know how the system works and automatically assume that only certain well-connected folks can hope to be issued a firearms permit (which ist wrong, of course). I've had friends of mine tell me, "Yeah, I can see why you're allowed to own guns, you're a cop after all." The fact that I got my firearms permit way before I joined the force didn't bother them.

Anyway, I'm not ready to give up on this country. I'll do my best to educate people about gun ownership, take them shooting, let them familiarize with the idea of owning a gun. Two colleagues of mine recently asked me if I could recommend any good gun clubs in our area...


Regards,

Trooper

[McCall911]

What I'd say to a German anti:

<<<Du bisch net dumm, aber der di für g'scheit hält, der isch dumm!>>>

Translation

"You're not stupid, but whoever thinks you're smart is stupid!"

(Old south-German saying)

[T.Stahl]

ROTFLMAO!! :D


Living in southern Germany for 12 years now, I'll have to memorize it.

[Siggyboy]

Trooper, good for you! Keep educating your countrymen (and women) on gun ownership...maybe eventually it will become more accepted there. :banghead:

McCall1911, that's a good "schwaebisch" saying (area in south-west Germany, where T.Stahl is).

[mrclarkbkk]

I used to date a girl from Hamburg, Germany. While she was in the states I took her and another German shooting at a local range. At the time she was a 25 year old journalist, the friend was 24 and was a former member of the Bunderwehr. She had never been shooting before and he had only shot in the army. Both were fairly uncomfortable with the fact that I owned several personal firearms that a) i kept in my home and b) have a ccw and would carry most of the time. They both explained to me that they didn't see the need for a firearm, to them it only escalated any situation in which I might have reason to use the firearm in question. I tried explaining that I would only draw and use a firearm in a life threating situation and that I carried it most places I went because the world is not a safe place and I would rather have it and not need it than not have it and have need for it. The GF and I ad this argument several times. I had the discussion with her dad a few times, career Naval Officer in the German Military, his dad was a U-boat captain, real interesting guy. He had to carry a handgun for years as part of his job, but his daughter, my gf, still had issues with it. He saw my point of view and was planning on taking him shooting whenever he came over next but then we broke up. I met a lot of germans on visits over there. Anti's, pro's, both had very good and well argued points of view. Most of the anti's were strict pacifists, had the belief that violence solves nothing in any form.

[Sam]

Lots of great shooters and clubs in Germany. Your friend should be persuaded to visit you so you can convert her.

Pretty good hunting in Germany too,
I just didn't care to dress like an extra from Hiedi.

Sam

[Robert Hairless]

"We're talking about Germans?
"They of all people should not have access to guns
"Never Again!"

"Oh, Puleeze!"

You're evidently one of the sophisticated Rabbis who understand that the past is past and that it's time to stop dwelling on the small mistakes that the German people made, which led to World War I and World War II. They were, after all, misled: first by the Kaiser and then by the Nazis. They certainly didn't do anything wrong, which is why poor Mr. Hitler died of exhaustion because he had to run around Europe doing what the German people would not do: murder civilians. Of course the German people did not know the bad things Mr. Hitler was doing. They thought that stench from the extermination camps was the result of unattended barbeques. When the retarded, the Jews, the Gypsies, and others were transported to their deaths in front of their approving neighbors, the good Germans envied those people because they thought they were being resettled in seaside resorts. And when the good Germans received the clothing, homes, and other possessions of the departed they probably thought ... oh, I don't know, maybe that the Jews were giving them Christmas presents?

You say that your friend is in her fifties, the implication being that she lived through the Nazi era. In fact she wasn't born until afterwards. She knows what she was told by people who wanted and needed to deny the past. That is what she is doing and that is what you are doing.

The comment you dismissed so derisively is valid and your derision parallels that of your German friend. Hers is perhaps more understandable because it seems so pure in its denial of reality. She wants to be defenseless because she believes that she lives in a world in which there is no need for defense--not even for the country in which she lives. If there does happen to be such a need, someone else will do it for her and for them. But, of course, it should not be the gun crazy Americans. You probably do her no service by attempting to contradict her and risk destroying her fantasy.

Members of my family helped to liberate the camps. They used guns to do it. The good Germans were too busy to help. They had been doing other things. Unlike your friend, and probably unlike you, I was alive at the time.

[R.H. Lee]

Rabbi-
Send her this story. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=122499

and this one: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=122465

and there are thousands more where ordinary people used firearms in defense of their lives.

[The Rabbi]

You're evidently one of the sophisticated Rabbis who understand that the past is past and that it's time to stop dwelling on the small mistakes that the German people made

Yadda yadda yadda.

The Germans have spent the past 60 years apologizing for what was done. They have backed that up by paying out literally billions of dollars in reparations. Now maybe that isnt enough. But it is a far sight more than anyone else in any comparable situation has done. Have the Polish apologized for their complicity in the Holocaust? No. Have they offered one zloty for all the property that was taken in Poland? No. Have the Ukrainians faced up to their complicity? No. The Croatians? The Serbs? The French?
Have the Turks offered reparations to the Kurds? No. Have the Russians apologized to the Ukrainians for the forced starvation during the 1920s?
There is not one comparable case of any nation apologizing for the calamtities it inflicted on any other nation, much less paying out huge sums over many decades.
Any German who was active in those horrors is now in his 80s or more. Anyone born after 1946 bears no guilt unless you want to assign collective guilt.

You say that your friend is in her fifties, the implication being that she lived through the Nazi era. In fact she wasn't born until afterwards. She knows what she was told by people who wanted and needed to deny the past. That is what she is doing and that is what you are doing

No, that was not the implication. That is your erroneous inference. My point was that this someone who has been around for awhile. She was told what she was told by the many survivors she has encountered directly, by the many talks she has heard from others, and by the books and articles she has read in German, French, and English. Your assertion that she is ignorant is just plain wrong.
I find it hard to imagine that you were born before WW2.
But your entire rant (and that is all it is, unfactual, emotional, insulting and ineffective) is completely off topic. It will do nothing to further my explanation of what to her is a very foreign attitude. I am not sure whether gun owners face more danger from people opposed to guns or people like you.

[trooper]

Rabbi, I honestly appreciate you pointing that out.

We're talking about Germans?
They of all people should not have access to guns.

I won't comment on this. Suffice to say that I just spent two hours shooting IPSC with a couple friendly, open-minded, educated and highly skilled folks who by pure luck happen to be German.

Yeah, those guys sure should be barred from owning guns. So much for RKBA being a human right... :banghead:


Trooper

[DnPRK]

Liberals just don't get it. They attribute ill intent to tools that are to be used in dire situations.

>>Does she have access to a fire extinguisher? By her logic, its because she plans to burn her house down!

>>Does she wear a seat belt? Its because she plans to wreck her car!

>>Does she have a box of band-aids in her first aid kit? Its because she plans to cut her finger!

Having the tools on hand to protect yourself and loved ones before its needed is smart, not a sign of malice.

[Robert Hairless]

Yadda yadda yadda.

I anticipated that your response would be derisive, as it was to an earlier poster who expressed an opinion you did not like. Dismissal, derision, and denial seem to be your dominant modes when confronted by disagreement with your base position.

My remarks were stimulated by and addressed your derision of that earlier writer. You were rude and arrogant then, and you are rude and arrogant now, displaying a grand refusal to respect those who have opinions that differ from yours. Those are not qualities to respect in a Rabbi.

I don't recall having said anything directly addressing private ownership of guns so your judgment that "I am not sure whether gun owners face more danger from people opposed to guns or people like you" is irrelevant except as one of your nasty digs.

I hadn't anticipated your challenge to my age. You surprise me because your challenge is petty and ludicrous. I do know my own birth date. You don't. In fact I was born well before the outbreak of World War II. Although it should be obvious that you don't know when I was born you challenge the fact anyway. I had not doubted that you were a Rabbi, although I must express doubt that you are THE Rabbi, and I hadn't thought that you might not be a Rabbi until I read your responses to people who don't accept your rabbinical infallibility.

You might want to hear what other people say, especially when they disagree with you, and reassess your pattern of reflexive dismissal and derision of them. But I don't really care what you do. This thread has revealed enough about your attitudes towards other people to make your opinions of no further interest.

[Model520Fan]

Members of my family helped to liberate the camps. They used guns to do it. The good Germans were too busy to help. They had been doing other things. Unlike your friend, and probably unlike you, I was alive at the time.

My thanks to your family for their service then, and my thanks to you for your service now.

My point was that this someone who has been around for awhile. She was told what she was told by the many survivors she has encountered directly, by the many talks she has heard from others, and by the books and articles she has read in German, French, and English. Your assertion that she is ignorant is just plain wrong.

Robert did not assert that she was ignorant. A partial quote: "She knows what she was told by people who wanted and needed to deny the past. That is what she is doing and that is what you are doing."

I, however, assert that she is terminally stupid, and you are not so bright in defending her, particularly against such a charitable analysis as Robert is venturing. A professional evaluation might reveal something a bit less flattering.

I find it hard to imagine that you were born before WW2.


Let's see. WWII was, for us, 1941, a little earlier for some others. 2005 minus 1941 equals approximately 64. I am puzzled as to why you find it hard to imagine that a new poster on this forum might be 64 years of age or older, but I suppose we all have our limitations.

[Tamara]

It's so very, very cute to see people display the selfsame bigotry that they think they are decrying. Not.

*tweeeeeet!!!*
Flag on the play.
Unnecessary libel.
20 yard penalty and start the thread over again.