[bernie]

I am sure this has been discussed, but could not get an effective search using "20". My wife is 5"2" and 100 pounds. I also have a couple of boys that will need to start hunting soon. I have a bud wanting to sell me an 870 20 gauge youth model. Obviously it would be great for the boys, but I have also wondered about my wife using it for self defense when I am not around. What would the lethal range of 20 gauge birdshot be, roughly. I know that there are no guarantees, I just want an idea.

[jonesjj]

Here is something to try for starters to get an idea,

first I would see what is the longest shot that I would be taking in my house, (lets say 5 yards for example) then I would take diff kinds of ammo say, some 7 1/2 bird shot, #4 Buck, #1 buck, 00 buck, and go to the range and test each one out to see what will give you the best pattern at that range.

That will give you an idea on how each one will hit at your particular range.

[Al Thompson]

Bernie, at usual home ranges, you'll have to hit 10 Yards before birdshot becomes "iffy". No knowledge of your home, but I only have one shot in my home past that.

FWIW, I've seen several deer killed with 20 ga buckshot and it works fine. The selections are - 2 3/4 with #3 buck, 3 inch with #2 buck. Not sure where you are, but the 20 ga buck is available.

Dave has an 870 youth in 20 ga and (IIRC) reports that it has some thump. IMHO, those are great shotguns and I plan on adding one to my battery.

HTH

[Topgun]

Any load in any shotgun in any house will stop anybody, anytime.

IMO

[sm]

Set my mom up with a 20 ga. for HD

I've always been one for pattern boards, had mom do the same--she had to know for herself.

Then again I have used old "shotgun shacks" and barns to do load testing. One learns from pattern boards, education escalates when inside with a pack of rabid critters...coming at you. Handgun(s) and shotguns loads were tested...critters and structure...interesting.

Mom uses both #6 shot, and #3 buck...she prefers the #3, umm , yours truly needs to pick up some more...she kinda shot it all last time out -save 1 (oops).

[Dave McCracken]

The 870YE I got for the kids kicks hard with oz loads. Tolerable but emphatic for me, and bad on less experienced shooters. The smaller butt's the key. Rounding off the toe of the pad slightly will aid comfort for most women and some men.

More usual 7/8 oz loads are quite pleasant to shoot for me and not too rough on the kids.

Inside most homes, almost all shotgun rounds hit as a semi solid mass roughly one inch or less in diameter. Effect tops 99%, regardless of choke, gauge or load. I'd also pattern a few brands of buck, and keep some on hand for WIHTF outside.

Were I schooling an older woman with a shotgun, the YE is a good start,using 7/8 oz loads. She should have some lessons, given by a qualified someone other than a family member.

HTH....

[WonderNine]

A .410 out of a shotgun will blow the crap out of anybody wearing normal clothing at house ranges.

[Art Eatman]

Inside the house, IMO, #9 Skeet will serve as well as any other shotgun load of whatever gauge. You'd be unlikely to have a firing lane of more than ten yards. Such a load will penetrate interior walls, but the energy of the pellets would then be very low.

A buddy of mine discovered the hard way that it's survivable at some 25 yards, however. :)

Art

[bad_dad_brad]

I have a Winchester 1300 defender in .20 gauge. I load it with #3 magnums but I think this overkill. I have often read that #6 shot will be more than enough in a home environment. I like the .20 gauge as a home defense weapon. Not near as much blast or kick as a .12 and it is most effective at the close ranges of CQB.

[Sir Galahad]

Hold the phone here, Wondernine. I thought you said in another thread that shotguns were unreliable.:D

I would not trust my life to a .410 bore. A bird shot load out a .410 doesn't stop some small critters, much less some freak on meth. It certainly doesn't blow the crap out of 250 pounds, 6'2" of dusted dirtbag. But if some feel called to trust in this, that is their choice. I know the people I've seen on various controlled substances, I'd be wishing for a 8 gauge if I had to face them in a life-or-death struggle. Saw one guy on PCP in L.A. go right down La Brea breaking out every window for a block with his bare hands. Hands were hamburger hanging off exposed bone when the cops caught him. I doubt a .410 would've even fazed that guy.

I am a serious believer in 12 gauge, Number 1 buck. IWBAs test data shows this to be a very good load and it patterns excellently out of my Defender. My first three rounds are #1 buck and the rest is 00.

[Dave McCracken]

Galahad, at cross the room ranges a 410's miniscule load hits like the old Police loading in a 41 Magnum. Half an oz of shot moving at 1200 FPS or so and acting like a solid projectile will run off the scale.

At the really close ranges encountered in HD crises, the 410 is as effective as a 3 1/2" 10 gauge loaded with 000 made from depleted Uranium and rubbed with garlic. Once we open up the range, then the drawbacks of the little 410 become obvious.

One of these days maybe I'll borrow a 410 like that little Mossie and pattern some of those 3 pellet buck loads. That may be illuminating...

[Sir Galahad]

Interesting.

[riverdog]

While the total energy delivered by a .410 across the room may be up there with a .41 Mag (great caliber BTW), the individual pellets will act like a pre-fragmented slug and they won't penetrate. In HD situations, as in any PD situation, the idea is to stop the perp immediately, not shoot him so that he will expire after he's finished being mad at you for shooting him.

IMO, the ammo selected for HD should be able to reach vital organs assuming shot placement allows. That means, IIRC, #4 Buck as a minimum, #1Buck is optimal and 00Buck is the benchmark. I went with 00B simply because it's available, I haven't found any #1B yet.

[sm]

I had to ask Mom just why she preferred the #3 buck.
Her reasoning is, if some BG breaks in that means he has put her in danger of her life. She may be in Bedroom, she may retreat to bedroom,maybe retreat further into her bathroom...If BG shoots, breaks down door, whatever, she wants to be sure the load will work if having to deal with a door partially opened.

Basically, she said, in the event the BG has a heavy coat, partially obstructed by walls, furniture, she wants the threat stopped.

Oh, being a Mom..."honey, you always said to use enough gun, you carry a 45 or that 9 dealie..."

Mom's...don't you hate it when they remind you of stuff you said?

She will only allow me or my gunsmith to take her shooting, its a mom thing...

[Dave McCracken]

Something that bears on this is San Quentin Prison, the only facility in the US where guns are routinely deployed inside.

COs patrol in two, one with a carbine, one with a shotgun, both with sidearms. All weapons are lanyarded to the officer.

Shotguns were 870 Remingtons loaded with 8s. The COs evolved a takedown that used a 12 gauge round fired at close range into the pelvis bone in the hip area. Many loads still were encased in the wad at the hospital. IIRC, the info I read on this said the critical distance was about 8 yards. It'd be the same for a 410 load.

However, the thread's about 20 gauges. The YE's not a "Ready" weapon here, the family prefers revolvers and me the HD 870,a 12. But if it were, it'd probably have a 7/8 oz field load up first, backed up by buck in case I have to shoot through the fridge or our solid pine living room suite.

[six 4 sure]

I agree with Dave on this one. If you're only option is a 20ga, I'd use a field load for the first shot and have buck for the following rounds. My personal choice is #4.

Six

[Oleg Volk]

One of these days maybe I'll borrow a 410 like that little Mossie and pattern some of those 3 pellet buck loads. That may be illuminating...


Even from a derringer, the pellets deformed greatly while in the bore. I expect that patterns from a shotgun would be equally lousy unless the shot was buffered better.

[Mr Jody Hudson]

Some of you have seen me post this over the years...

We built replicas of each of the different walls in our home; outside wall = vinyl siding over plywood over insulation over wallboard and then panelling...

inside walls were various combinations of panelling and wallboard and insulation.

We found that in most cases the #9 shot in max velocity trap and skeet loads stayed in the shot cup out to about 24 feet at most. The load went through first side of a wall like a slug, out to 24 feet. Seldom did the load penetrate the second side of the wall and if it did penetrate the second side of any wall, it would not penetrate a piece of denim after it penetrated the second side of the wall.

Thus, I have the 1490 fps #9 trap and skeet loads from Walmart in both of our house guns which are Mossbergs with long magazine tubes. I prefer the Mossys because they have the top tang safety which I can see and feel in the dark or when sleepy. I don't like the trigger gard safety on other shot guns as I have to turn gun over to see which way is safe and can't see the red in low light.

If I were looking to protect the area outside of my home, or a barn yard, as I used to have dominion over; I'd use buck and slugs with the buck first and then some slugs. Inside the home however we found we did NOT want to have anything other than the #8 or #9 as the rest of the loads gave too much penetration after hitting the walls.

We found no difference between 12 and 20 ga loads except as to how many shot were in the load -- but found there was no difference in penetration of walls or distance to where the shot cup separated from the load of shot. There is a HUGE difference in cost however, as 20 is two or three times the cost of 12 in this area.