Vaseline? Hollow points?


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Ralphpeters
January 22, 2005, 05:45 PM
Is there any advantage with filling the cavities of hollow points with vaseline?
Will this help expansion and keep it clear of debrie?

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Hhrshooter
January 22, 2005, 06:20 PM
There sure is! Goto prison, three squares a day, cigarettes replace cash, and Bubba thinks your sexy! :D

It isn't a good idea for a few reasons:
1. Vaseline will melt. Possible damage to weapon and self!
2. A Court case would probably grant you a vacation trip (all expenses paid).
3. It might sound good, but performance would be affected in an adverse way.

Solo
January 22, 2005, 06:27 PM
No advantage.

stans
January 22, 2005, 07:16 PM
Attracts much more dirt and debris. And yeah, doing something like that might not sit too well with a jury. If you packed them with Vaseline, what else might you have put in them? Arsenic? Ricin?

pezo
January 22, 2005, 07:23 PM
yes self modifying weapons or ammo for better man killing capablitites is NOT a good idea, gives the impression you were looking for trouble if you were ever in a self defense situation. Having the hammer cocked on a firearm even has been considered as predetermined intent to use it, Ive been told.

Double Naught Spy
January 22, 2005, 07:25 PM
Hhrshooter's claims of causing you to go to jail are unfounded, unless maybe you live in a state where vaseline filled hollowpoints are illegal. Otherwise, either you have the right to use lethal force, or you don't. If you do, you can use cyanide to fill hollowpoints if you like, or anything else.

As noted, however, vaseline melts, it won't stay in the little hollowpoint cup, and so there isn't any real good reason to have it there. None of the manufacturers use anything like that. The do use stuff like a silicon ball inside EFMJ or a little plastic ball in CorBon Powerball rounds, but nothing like Vaseline.

DMF
January 22, 2005, 07:28 PM
. . . Ive been told. :rolleyes: Told by whom? If lethal force is justified, then the instrument used to deliver that force does not matter. The question the jury must answer is, "was lethal force justified," NOT "was the gun/ammo too deadly?"

444
January 22, 2005, 07:38 PM
I tried to do this with .22 LR HP after reading about it somewhere. My goal was to shoot a few jackrabbits to see if it enhanced performance.
First of all, it is very difficult to get the vasoline into the hollowpoint cavity (on a .22LR). I started off by melting it in the microwave. This isn't easy, it melts but not readily. I then drew it up in a syringe. It cooled to a solid almost immediately, so I could get maybe one or two bullets done before it solidified.
To make a long story even longer, they are still sitting right where I filled them and I never shot anything with them.

Oh, and I didn't see anything at all in the original post about shooting humans with these bullets. Instead of practical advice, he got legal advice.

Glock19Fan
January 22, 2005, 07:56 PM
Hello.

I have no experience using Vasoline with anything involving guns, however, I have dont a little experimenting with HP airgun pellets and clay/wax, just to find out what would be most effective on pigeons.

After hundreds of shots, comparing wax and clay to a normal HP, I found that the clay and wax really does help out, but not that much at high velocities. However, at low velocities, and through cloth, the difference is quite clear.

However, unlike what most people would think, this does not make the bullet/pellet expand to a larger diameter. They simply make them expand quicker, or, in some case, fragment more.

I havent tried it, but I bet a .22LR cartridge, a Paco tool, and a ball of wax would make a very good hunting round.

(You should keep in mind that filling any bullet with anything will add weight, which can cuase the pressures to increase to extreme limits. I do not recommend anyone try this).

whm1974
January 22, 2005, 09:48 PM
Hhrshooter's claims of causing you to go to jail are unfounded, unless maybe you live in a state where vaseline filled hollowpoints are illegal. Otherwise, either you have the right to use lethal force, or you don't. If you do, you can use cyanide to fill hollowpoints if you like, or anything else.

I wouldn't do it. During the trial the DA will use this to make you look like YOU WANTED to kill someone. Even if you win this one, you will also face a civil suit.

Stick to factory ammo. If you can use what the police carry or get some plain JHP.

-Bill

dev_null
January 22, 2005, 09:50 PM
I wanna try Henry Bowman's trick of putting lighter flints in the hollowpoint of a .22! :D

SkyDaver
January 22, 2005, 10:32 PM
I tried the flint thing; unsuccessfully.

Had to drill out the hollow point to get the flint to fit ... didn't see any sparks when it hit (although it was daytime)

Way too much work to be fun, don't even know if it was successful.

Hypnogator
January 23, 2005, 12:22 AM
Back in the olden days when the only 230-gr HP bullets available for .45 ACP were from Norma (barely better than FMJs) I experimented with hollowing out the point a bit more with a drill press, then inserting a magnum small rifle primer upside down into the resulting cavity. Inasmuch as the drilling left a small flange of lead around the hole, it fit nicely when pressed over the edge of the primer, holding it securely in the bullet.

Test fired hardball, which penetrated about 3/4 of the way through an old Dun & Bradstreet book (about 6"). The "explosive" bullet blew a hole the size of the palm of my hand out of the rear of the same sized book. :eek: :what: :eek:

Never carried them for real, though. Nowadays, I'm happy with 230-gr HydraShoks. ;)

Feanaro
January 23, 2005, 01:03 AM
Everytime this comes up, or using reloaded ammo for SD, people crawl out of the walls to say that it will get you put in jail. Find me ONE case where a person was convicted of murder because of the ammo they used. It's a possibility but it's about as overblown as over-penetration, "stopping power", and "energy dump" combined.

Brass Balls
January 23, 2005, 01:11 AM
Is there any advantage with filling the cavities of hollow points with vaseline?

Does this by chance have anything to do with the use of a rubber french maid outfit?

Kevlarman
January 23, 2005, 01:55 AM
Test fired hardball, which penetrated about 3/4 of the way through an old Dun & Bradstreet book (about 6"). The "explosive" bullet blew a hole the size of the palm of my hand out of the rear of the same sized book.

I always wondered if that was possible to do! One of my Gunsmith Cats comics has a dude in it with "exploder" bullets; basically just a hollowpoint filled with a bit of gunpowder and topped with a primer. He intended to shoot a gascan with it. I thought it was pretty clever, and also pretty cool that the author knew that firing regular bullets at a gascan would likely not cause an explosion.

That said, I have experimented with gunpowder filled arrows. :neener:

greyeyezz
January 23, 2005, 02:15 AM
I did the same thing with a drill bit and a Corbon 357Sig hollowpoint. The primer actually fit in there nice and tight. Didn't have the nads to shoot it though. :scrutiny:

lycanthrope
January 23, 2005, 02:47 AM
Find me ONE case where a person was convicted of murder because of the ammo they used.


Correct, it's never really happened.

Besides, If it came to my life or a long court case, I'll do the time in court....I'm worth it. Besides that, spend more timne on good bullets and save the vaseline for....um...... round nose penetration.

thorn726
January 23, 2005, 05:00 AM
oh boy do you really want to know what to tip them with????/

i forget exactly , i can ask.
isnt it the tips from nail sets?
hehe that i think will get you in trouble though, hopefully im wrong.

geekWithA.45
January 23, 2005, 09:30 AM
With all the handwringing about HP's not expanding because they get clogged with cloth and coat on the way in, I'm not real sure what the advantage of pre clogging them might be.

dev_null
January 23, 2005, 09:46 AM
> save the vaseline for....um...... round nose penetration.

ROFLOL!

Tomac
January 23, 2005, 10:23 AM
That's why I use Federal's Expanding FMJ in my .45, no HP to damage or clog. True, it may not expand as far as the best HP's under ideal conditions or have as many sharp edges but it will always expand regardless of what it hits.
Tomac

one-shot-one
January 23, 2005, 10:41 AM
i got to say that doing anything to alter the weight of a bullet without matching the powder charge to match (using proper reloading tables) is asure way to eventually ruin a gun, your hand, and or you life. bullet weight and powder charges when changed cause pressure changes and not always in the direction that you would think. ie. making the bullet lighter does not automatically lower pressure because powders for lighter bullets burn at a different rate.

USP45usp
January 23, 2005, 03:22 PM
This reminds me of a person that I met down at the river in GA (unofficial firing range) that had BB's glued into the hollow points in his 9mm ammo "so that it has more knockdown power".

I couldn't shoot straight after that one, the tears from my laughter made it hard to see :D

Wayne

RyanM
January 23, 2005, 03:55 PM
I'm pretty sure pre-filling hollowpoints with something (wax would probably work best) would make them perform better through heavy clothing. The problem with clothing is the cloth goes into the hollowpoint cavity and clogs it up, inhibiting expansion because cloth doesn't transmit hydrodynamic pressure too well. Wax, vaseline, or another semi-solid would prevent cloth from entering the cavity, but still transmit hydrodynamic pressure enough to cause the bullet to expand.

Though I'd rather find a bullet that expands after penetrating through cloth on its own, instead of trying to get an inferior round up to spec.

And I seriously doubt that 1/2 grain of vaseline could possibly change the weight enough to ruin a gun, etc. Most commercial bullets have a variance of + or - 3 grains to begin with.

PinnedAndRecessed
January 23, 2005, 04:21 PM
Wow. Reading this thread reminds me of the guy who wrote the Preparation H people that their product doesn't work. Said he ate the whole tube and he still had his problem. But said he sure could whistle.

pezo
January 23, 2005, 04:47 PM
I know its good to have rresources to prove these things but im sorry I dont have any but, I do recall hearing of a situation involving 2 neighbors in a gun battle. both armed with double action six guns. one neighbor was killed the other acquitted . the gun fight was vidieo taped and the loser of the fight had his revolver hammer cocked prior to the shootout. thus showing he had intent to use it. thus acquitting his neighbor of man slaughter. ps , this was on a real life extreme video show. televised.they did reveal the legal outcome.

lbmii
January 23, 2005, 08:49 PM
I suspect that the fabric does not so much as enter the hollow point but instead covers and wraps around the tip of the bullet before it sears off the shirt or jacket. In effect a fabric patch that is larger in diameter than the hollow point cavity is created and this fabric patch covering the front of the bullet inhibits expansion.

Sir Aardvark
January 23, 2005, 09:47 PM
Howcome anyone here hasn't mentioned filling the cavities with mercury and then epoxying the top closed. I saw that on a movie once (Taxi Driver???), but the guy dripped melted lead over the bullets to seal them back up.

I don't see why a prosecuter would have any issue with you shooting someone with hyper-expanding home-made ammo, or for using exploding bullets for that matter (please note the sarcasm).

lbmii
January 23, 2005, 09:52 PM
The movie was Jaws.

Reagan was shot with a 22 pistol loaded with some odd off brand exploding bullets that did not explode.

Sir Aardvark
January 23, 2005, 10:40 PM
I believe that the .22 bullets used to shoot Reagan had magnesium filled tips.

lycanthrope
January 23, 2005, 11:43 PM
I don't see why a prosecuter would have any issue with you shooting someone with hyper-expanding home-made ammo, or for using exploding bullets for that matter (please note the sarcasm).


If I could fill any bullet with something that would up the "one-shot-stop" probability I would do just that. It's amazing that we fear lawyers and litigation, but wouldn't fear bleeding out because the bullet design didn't incapacitate someone fast enough.

Handloads for SD? (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#handload)

It's been researched. I'm worth it.

Besides that, spend the money on good bullets and don't worry about filling them with cream and jelly.

cidirkona
January 24, 2005, 03:41 AM
Why not just by Hydroshocks?

-Colin

Owen
January 24, 2005, 04:34 PM
If it would improve performance, don't you think the manufacturers would already be doing it? Especially when it is a well known (er, I need a better word) myth.

RyanM
January 24, 2005, 04:45 PM
Manufacturers are doing it though (kinda), in the form of plastic plugs in certain bullets. Plastic has the advantage of not melting during shipping, and apparently it's soft enough that most bullets still expand rather nicely.

sturmruger
January 24, 2005, 09:54 PM
Every time I think I had heard everything something like this comes up! :banghead:

dev_null
January 24, 2005, 11:02 PM
Mmmm..... Bavarian Kreme.... :D

Taurus 66
January 24, 2005, 11:35 PM
Vaseline in the hollow point?? I haven't heard about that one, but I did once overhear a local gunshop owner and his two shop buddies discussing filling their 40 S&W JHPs with mercury and sealing over the tip with bees wax. Now that's illegal!!

Longbow
January 25, 2005, 02:14 AM
I know its good to have rresources to prove these things but im sorry I dont have any but, I do recall hearing of a situation involving 2 neighbors in a gun battle. both armed with double action six guns. one neighbor was killed the other acquitted . the gun fight was vidieo taped and the loser of the fight had his revolver hammer cocked prior to the shootout. thus showing he had intent to use it. thus acquitting his neighbor of man slaughter. ps , this was on a real life extreme video show. televised.they did reveal the legal outcome.

That was on the show Hard Copy couple years ago. I've seen that too. I think it was also the dead guy's wife holding the video camera. It worked against them, probably not what they intended.

BluesBear
January 25, 2005, 06:18 AM
Years Ago™ I was a distributor for the Bingham Corporation. They manufactured the Devastator® .22 rimfire and Exploder® centerfire ammunition and bullets.

In certain medium they were spectacular.
I sold a shiP load of them.
I even carried one up the spout of my .45 for a while but I was never convinced that they would reliably "expand" in a 100#+ high water content carbon based life form.
Although Starlings hit with the .22 Devastators never had a chance. :evil:


...that had BB's glued into the hollow points ...
...the tears from my laughter made it hard to see...
A BB in a hollow point works VERY well!

Ever see the Winchester .25ACP expanding tip ammo?

Back in the mid 1970s I had some German .22 Long Rifle ammo that had a small steel "ball bearing" in the nose. On a rabbit it just ruined too much meat!

The problem in doing-it-yourself is that it's difficult to accurately fit it in the cavity without ruining the stability of the bullet.

Pow'R-Ball, Glaser and RBCD are just variations on the BB in the bullet concept.

PCRCCW
January 25, 2005, 12:48 PM
Very interesting thread......my dad and I did the Mercury filled HP's when I was a kid.....never did shoot them.

Vaseline, IMO, would melt during the trip down the barrel as friction causes heat and heat melts Vaseline. Or am I just not a Rocket/Bullet Scientist and missing something here.

The powerball/EFMJ's are the same theory as the BB or Vaseline and are proven designs.

Its probably more prudent/time/cost effective to buy those instead of trying to make your own......

The legal issue is a valid one....people will TRY and sue you over any damn thing they can.
Whether or not they are successful is the real question.

Its just a common sense rule that if you use good off the shelf ammo your better off.
Explaining to the DA and a jury, why you made the "killer exploding doomsday bullets" in your shed by moonlight and why you fired them from a silenced, state of the art, laser guided Class 3 weapon.....isnt what I want to have to do............just me. Yes its an exageration...but had a purpose.......k?

Shoot well..........

torpid
January 25, 2005, 01:19 PM
Sir Aardvark
Howcome anyone here hasn't mentioned filling the cavities with mercury and then epoxying the top closed. I saw that on a movie once (Taxi Driver???), but the guy dripped melted lead over the bullets to seal them back up.

lbmii
The movie was Jaws.


Close, lbmii, but that movie was the vastly inferior Jaws II, and it was cyanide, not mercury. :)



.

KurtC
January 25, 2005, 01:55 PM
Here is some useless info:

In 1980 a film called "Exterminator" had Robert Ginty putting mercury into hollowpoints.

In the early '80s, "exploder" ammuntion using a primer in the bullet was manufactured by a company in the south. I think the name was Bingham. I tried a box of 9mm in a phone book. The bullets turned into shrapnel.

Putting a copper BB into a hollowpoint turns it into a FMJ. Putting a steel BB into a hollowpoint turns it into Armor Piercing Ammuntion, which is illegal in a handgun.

Putting any substance on or in a bullet, from garlic to mercury, will likely get you an Attempted Poisoning charge, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting.

Remember all the flak over whether teflon was to protect the barrel or penetrate vests?

John Ross
January 25, 2005, 07:05 PM
Never used Vaseline, but after reading some of Norman Johnson's experiments I made up some pure lead .458" hollowpoints with BIG cavities and filled them with automotive chassis grease.

I could not believe how they opened at ridiculously low velocities. An inch and a quarter at 600 fps. No comparison with empty HPs.

Am planning to make a swage for .500 S&W bullets and try it with a 600 grain slug at 900 FPS.

FWIW center-drilling a bullet 3/4 of its length destroys its integrity and they tend to blow up like bombs at magnum handgun velocity and above.

JR

DT Guy
January 25, 2005, 07:45 PM
The problem with arsenic, mercury or something similar is that the purpose of the bullet is no longer to STOP the attacker-it's to KILL the attacker, perhaps at a later time when they are no longer a threat.

To defend yourself from a criminal charge in a defensive shooting, you have to show that you were shooting to stop the attack. If you shoot the person, they stop and then die two days later from a 'poisoned' bullet, you can hardly argue you acted in self defense.


Larry

landon74
January 25, 2005, 10:08 PM
My old man used to put some kind of high temperature automotive grease in the hollow points of .22 Stingers, they would blow crap apples and water jugs up pretty good. I don't know if they were anymore effective than regular Stingers or not.

Joe Demko
January 26, 2005, 08:51 AM
Re: Mercury in hollowpoints

Mercury forms an amalgam with lead quite readily. Essentially, it dissolves it. Not a recipe for a stable projectile or one that you can carry for any length of time.
Then too, since aluminum is used so much in guns for frames and so on these days, you might want to consider this. (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how2/article/0,20967,693558,00.html)

Sheldon
January 27, 2005, 07:22 AM
I would think the centrifigul force on a bullet doing a couple hundred thousand RPM would fling out all the vasoline almost instantly.

BluesBear
January 27, 2005, 07:43 AM
Any soft substence in a relatively straight walled cavity in the nose of the bullet wouldn't be disbursed by centrifugal force.

The walls of the cavity would help contain it.
The forward momentum of the bullet would force it deeper into the cavity.

The problem with vasoline is its viscosity. It's just too thin. Plus it has a low melting point. And since most guns are noirmally carried with bullet noses pointing down gravity would not be your friend. You'd end up with a holster fullof vasoline. Although that might speed up your draw! :D

A thick grease would be a better choice provided it would remain in the cavity.
The thick grease would in essence "preload" the hollow point, instead of relying on fluids from the body to fill the cavity before expansion would begin.

The_Antibubba
January 27, 2005, 07:46 AM
Just fill that cavity with Triple Antibiotic salve!!! It's mostly petroleum jelly anyway, and you can tell the prosecutor, "I was trying to stop him-but I know that a lot of druggies have compromised immune systems, and I didn't want him to get sick!!"

:D :evil:

BluesBear
January 27, 2005, 07:56 AM
Antibubba, That's brilliant!

I can see it now...


New for 2005!
Remington® Golden Sabre™
Now with Neosporin®!


Neosporin® helps gunshot wounds heal five times faster.


:what:

Gordon
January 28, 2005, 12:02 AM
I used to have a Harvey hollowpoint tool. It made hollow points in solid lead ammo, way back in the 60's. It was a drill bit with a Knurled handle and a stop device that sliped over the case (either 38 , 44 or 45) . It made a hollow point that would take a .22 industrial blank pushed into the hole to the rim. These things, especially with the heavy load short blank were VERY interesting. Exploding bullets(and Toxic bullets) ;) have been illeagal a long time in most state though, I think they are Federally also. I would NEVER shoot one in self defense though, merely an entertainment device!

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