We get Barrels: Revisited


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Dave Sample
January 23, 2005, 08:23 PM
WARNING: These pictures were taken by a real Pistolsmith. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DO THIS WITHOUT PRIOR TRAINING.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/1874536/82325304.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/1874536/82326321.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/1874536/82326539.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/1874536/82327223.jpg

If you enjoyed reading about "We get Barrels: Revisited" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Dave Sample
January 23, 2005, 08:28 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/1874536/82327292.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82361798.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82361870.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82361902.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82362890.jpg

Dave Sample
January 23, 2005, 08:45 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82362967.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82363091.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82365151.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82365299.jpg

This one was restored to it's former Place in the Sun. It is "in the white" and will have a blued lower end later. We installed a new slide stop, new ejector, new firing pin stop,new Kart NM Barrel w/bushing, tuned extractor, and test fired 01-23-05. The shooter was my man Leo and he ran over 200 rounds of semi-waddcutters through it without any malfunctions of any kind. Ejection was 6 ' straight out in a 2-3 foot circle. New Wolff Patriot Spring kit was also added with the 16 1/2 VP recoil spring and HD firing pin spring. This Tack Driver will be for sale in Denver in about a month. It is an 80 Series Gold Cup top end over a Caspian lower end with 20 LPI Front Strap checkering and 20 LPI on the Trigger Guard. Just PIA restoration by the unknown smith. Mission Completed.

1911Tuner
January 23, 2005, 09:06 PM
Good show' Cap'n...but the argument wan't about fitting a barrel without a gauge. Of course a hard-fit barrel can be correctly chambered with a stop collar on the reamer...but that was never the point.

Remember where it got started? Dominic's Nork barrel...and the pictures of
"Ideal Headspace" that was determined by the rim sitting flush with the face of the barrel hood.

The point was...and is...that you can't verify correct headspace without involving the slide, and you sure can't verify it by dropping a loaded round into a chamber. Verifying headspace in an existing gun...such as Dominics, safe or not...requires gauging. That was the only point...and I'll stand by that statement 'til it snows in hell.

Your stop collar is nicely done, BTW. I had to make mine. I usually set it to stop just short of the desired depth, and finish it by hand.

Anyway...I'm tired of this little circus. It's been fun, but I've got a personal matter weighing pretty heavily on me right now, and I need to tend to it. See ya in the next flame war.

Tunerfish

Gewehr98
January 23, 2005, 10:08 PM
I do so love a properly fitted Kart NM barrel. All my 1911 variants wear one. Sorry that the discussion on fitment had to degrade, though. :(

Old Fuff
January 23, 2005, 10:32 PM
Methinks your photography is better then your 'smithing ... They show too much of the finer points. :uhoh: :D

Bill Z
January 23, 2005, 10:42 PM
Methinks your photography is better then your 'smithing ... They show too much of the finer points.

Don't leave us hanging Fluff, elaborate on that comment please.

What do you see by way of the We installed a new slide stop, new ejector, new firing pin stop,new Kart NM Barrel w/bushing, tuned extractor, and test fired 01-23-05. ?

What makes the photography better than the 'smithing?

Come on, enlighten me.

Dave Sample
January 23, 2005, 10:51 PM
O.F. Thanks for the nice Compliment.

Dave Sample
January 23, 2005, 11:04 PM
http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82389973.jpg

Here's on for you O.F.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82390080.jpg

Before and after. Can O.F. tell the difference?

BluesBear
January 24, 2005, 02:43 AM
The photography shows that who ever had it before you or your student was a little sloppy with the inside edges of the ejection port.

Lars1911
January 24, 2005, 07:14 AM
yep,i noticed that bb.nice g.c. though,dont think i wouldve jeweled it either but to each theyre own. :banghead:

Bill Z
January 24, 2005, 07:27 AM
The photography shows that who ever had it before you or your student was a little sloppy with the inside edges of the ejection port.

Let's see, it's a 17 year old gun that was a shooter that Dave just replaced the stuff that he posted he did and this has what to do with Fuffs comments?

I can see that the top end is a Colt Gold cup top end fitted to a Caspian frame (picture 5, post 2), plus the comments on post three verify that, so between Colt and 17 years that may account for a few things. It isn't a student gun, we only use Caspian frames AND slides, all new,nothing used.

Bear, at least you commented fairly about the ejection port and not try to put that off on Dave, but it seems like the OF couldn't help but take a stab, even for no reason, or what I would consider no reason as he couldn't give one. For a 'professional in the business' as he has called himself, he doesn't even make a good cheap shot artist. Why couldn't he give credit where credit was due? How 'bout those groups? Just color me frustrated.

BTW, if the customer wants it jeweled, or pink, or purple, or, or, or....you have to realize it's someone elses dream or wishes you, as a 'smith, are trying to realize, not necessarily your own. You draw the line on quality of parts and services, the jeweling doesn't have anything to do with that.

BTW BB, I noticed your sig line addition, cute way to announce your agenda.

BluesBear
January 24, 2005, 07:41 AM
It just seemed like an awful lot of work to have done just to sell a slide. ;)

Are we supposed to be impressed by the 1ΒΌ" group at seven yards?
Or the 3" group at 15 yards?


BTW Thanks for pointing out the code error in my sig. I have fixed it.

Bill Z
January 24, 2005, 10:58 AM
It just seemed like an awful lot of work to have done just to sell a slide.

Sell what slide? Read/comprehend what the customer wanted done/what was preformed.

We installed a new slide stop, new ejector, new firing pin stop,new Kart NM Barrel w/bushing, tuned extractor, and test fired 01-23-05.

What kind of a group shot free-hand from a pistol do you need to see that it performs accurately. You've never commented on groups like this positively before?

You just seem to have an agenda, it's a bit sad.

Dave Sample
January 24, 2005, 01:38 PM
It is easy to be a guy like the O.F. when you have a Moderator in your hip pocket, Bill. He can say and do anything he wants. His agenda is hate and discontent and we know about that from the Democrats. We must pity him for being so jealous and all he shoots is his mouth off.
Time for the rest of the story.
The owner is my best friend for almost 39 years. He is full of cancer and dying and no longer able to practice law. He is looking for stuff he can sell to raise money to live on until the end of the trail.This gun was worthless when it came to me and I restored it to it's best condition and now it's better than ever so we can sell it to who ever wants is with pride. It was all Pro-bono, of course.
O.F knows nothing of my skills and abilities and would not know good work if it jumped up and bit him. The opinion of no name ignorant posters means nothing to me and I am not surprised at what they do. I call these threads Casting Pearls Before Swine. I am very sad at what Americans have become now , and all I can do is pity you.

1911Tuner
January 24, 2005, 02:33 PM
Gee-Zus! I can't even grab a few hours to make funeral arrangements without everything going to Helen Gone around here.

Dave! Nobody is in anybody's pocket on the open forums, and many of the comments fired with you in the crosshairs are things that you have brought on yourself with back-handed insults and comments to the effect that everybody who opposes your methods or viewpoints are "Nameless, Faceless Cowards." If you can't take a little heat, stop striking matches. For the record, I've edited some of your comments that would have gotten you banned without further warning had I not been such an early riser and caught the posts before the bossman got a complaint. I HAVE gotten complaints,
and have not issued another formal warning...You're still at just the one
warning because of my willingness to smooth things over and try to keep the peace. You're welcome.

Fuff! I want to keep you aboard. I understand your anger and indignation,
but I have to keep it on a civilized level.

BluesBear! Just chill and let it happen. The man has shot himself squarely in both feet and one ankle...and he's reloaded his gun. The population is beginning to see the king's new clothes.

Finally, back to Dave...

I'm sorry..but I must, with all due respect, advise you that if I see a post that is dead wrong, and/or COULD result in anyone being hurt or damaging a valued firearm, I WILL edit the post to remove the information, rather than continue to attempt to correct it and explain it...and having another flame war erupt here. The Gunsmithing Board is about information, troubleshooting, repairing, and helping to explain to others how to address their problems. It's my job to see that all information given is accurate, correct, safe and legal,
and until the administrator informs me that it's okay to allow incorrect information, I'll continue to correct it.

Now, ya'll behave for a few days. I have to go bury my mother.

N.M. Edmands
January 24, 2005, 02:46 PM
Tuner, hang in there guy, sorry for your loss.

Bill Z
January 24, 2005, 03:51 PM
Sorry for your loss John. PM on the way.

Bill

Dave Sample
January 24, 2005, 09:44 PM
I lost my Mom five years ago and then my Dad, my sister Carol and my favorite aunt Mary all in five months. I am deeply sorry about your loss and wish I could be there to help. Internet Hugs from Dave and the Captain, and from the Heeler that is on my feet as I speak. I am sorry that I have lived my life not taking insults from anyone. I think it may be a character defect, but it is the way I am. God Bless you and your Mom.

Dave Sample
January 24, 2005, 10:20 PM
One more thing and I promise I will be nice.

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82556132.jpg

http://pic11.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6407184/82556093.jpg

Any combination of Man and Gun that can put 8 rounds of 45 ACP semi-waddcutters through a hole 3/4 of an inch at seven yards and make a Valentine, is a team that I am very proud of. This is with no bench rest, just standing there shooting like a man.

The gun was sold less than 24 hours after the test fire was completed to an old client who has 4 or 5 of my guns. I had about three offers and sent it to the best place I found for it to live happily ever after.
The local people know what I do.

tommyt
January 24, 2005, 11:23 PM
Dave,
Could you post a pic of a good throat job with a round in the chamber from the opposite side of the hood. Thanks in advance.

Tom

Dave Sample
January 25, 2005, 09:40 PM
Tommyt: I do not think I want to get into another rat fight over that kind of picture. While I was picking up some finished guns that Gunsite blued for me, I asked Cory Trapp (Gunsite Smith) about our latest adventure here. he uses a Go Gauge to check the chamber because he does not trust factory ammo. I agreed, but said the rounds that I used I check with a chamber check from Midway Arms so that I know the round is within Spec's. I never mentioned that it was the right way or the wrong way, just my way.
Cory agreed with me that the real danger is amateurs who over throat barrels and cause the cases to blow. I have seen this many times and have a few in the shop. I will not post pictures of these ruined barrels because Tuner thinks that someone might do this and blow a gun up. I have pictures that I can post of a properly throated barrel, and if Tuner approves I will be happy to put them up at some later date.

tommyt
January 25, 2005, 11:39 PM
Dave,
That sounds great. Not trying to cause any trouble. Tuner told me that my barrel had been throated a bit toooo much by a "gunsmith" that worked on it a while back. I just wanted to see what a good throat job looked like. Thanks.

1911Tuner
January 26, 2005, 05:03 AM
Dave,

If you have barrels that have been ruined by over-throating, please do post the pictures. Examples of what NOT to do are valuable, because barrel throats are among the most-often butchered areas of the gun, followed closely by botched trigger jobs.

Readers of this thread please note that a barrel throat can look good, and still be wrong. Pretty work isn't a guarantee of good work.

Bill Z
January 26, 2005, 10:19 AM
You fellow's do know that there is such a thing as a throat guage too, don't you? It's a 'build at home project', don't know if you can buy one, I'll have to check around.

tommyt
January 26, 2005, 10:54 PM
Dave,
can you give it a try now??

Wichaka
January 27, 2005, 12:11 AM
WARNING: These pictures were taken by a real Pistolsmith. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DO THIS WITHOUT PRIOR TRAINING.

Dave..............who's the real pistolsmith that took the pics?

Dave Sample
February 4, 2005, 09:58 PM
Witch: I did. I saw that barrel out in the shop today so I will try to get you some pictures of barrels throated right, and wrong. It is hard to spot sometimes, but a real easy way to tell is to grind an EMPTY 45 case in half and then you can see where the web of the case relates to the throat. Maybe I can find one I did years ago.
I am not going to respond to anymore insults from jerks so you are wasting your time. I am booking a new GSP Online 1911Class and I have a new one starting in a few days so I really don't have much spare time to waste. Check out www.1911gsponline.us. It is going to be a honey!

tommyt
February 5, 2005, 09:27 PM
Cool Dave. It will be nice to see pics of those barrels. Can you explain a bit more on the grinding of the case....I didn't follow the part about "see where the web of the case relates to the throat".

1911Tuner
February 6, 2005, 09:07 AM
Tommyt asked:

>Can you explain a bit more on the grinding of the case....I didn't follow the part about "see where the web of the case relates to the throat".<
****************

Hi Tommy,

It's a case that's been cross-sectioned...split down the middle...and it allows you to insert it into the chamber to visually check the head support. Not a
reliable check for an over-throated barrel because the webbing and case thickness ahead of the webbing can vary quite a bit from brand to brand...
and it can even vary some from lot to lot with the same brand. A throat gauge is best, and it also must tie in with headspace specs. The throat can
be perfect, but if the headspace is excessive, you can still have an unsupported head condition on firing, depending on how the excessive headspace is achieved...whether it's simply coming from a long chamber, or
from dimensional issues between the breechface and the locking lugs that allow the case to back out of the chamber when the gun fires. Long chamber really isn't a problem. If the case backs out...Could be a major problem.


Hope this helps...

Tuner

Old Fuff
February 6, 2005, 10:05 AM
tommyt:

Rather then split cases (which as Tuner has pointed out isn't always a good answer) I suggest that you buy two publications that will better help you understand the 1911 style pistol and/or provide a source for tools. gauges and parts. Both are witten in layman's English so you can understand them, and both are well illustrated:

"The Colt .45 Automatic - A Shop Manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen.

- - which is available from Brownells (www.brownells.com)

And while you're at it also buy a copy of Brownells' catalog. With these two books you will be way ahead.

Incidentally, Kuhnhausen fully explains throating issues - with pictures.

John@JCDLESales
December 9, 2005, 03:59 AM
Found you crusin some links. How goes it man?

I see you and Sample Dave are still at it:banghead: I thought he'd be dead by now from all the chest beating he does:rolleyes:

Some Spit never changes son does it? The man is wastin his time with STEWDENTS When he could publish the Encyclopedia Of "The Workings And Master Gunsmithing Of The Model 1911" Followed by his book "My 100 BEST Friend Master Gunsmiths"

Sorry Tuner just couldn't hold back man:D

You take care son and keep up the good work and I'll stop by to check in every now and then.

John;)

1911Tuner
December 9, 2005, 06:46 AM
Hey John! I thought you'd been drafted or somethin'! Ya still takin' care of business?

Dave's been gone for a while. One of the other mods pushed the bye-bye button on him while I was asleep. Didn't ask what happened.

John@JCDLESales
December 10, 2005, 12:31 AM
Tuner I had some time to kill last night so I was chasing some of the links folks send me and came upon THR. Started reading and there it was the Saga of "Sample Dave And Tuner".

Followed a few of his posts and went to the linked GS site looked over Grand Master "D"s offering of a Phd in 1911ology and the list of Master 1911 Gunsmithing "Drop Out Parts". Followed another link to newest of his forum tries where he is 93% of the forum. Well he really got a Case Of The Jaws For You Now Aye:eek:

Also looks like he and his Best Friend Teddy are shall we say "On The Outs":rolleyes: I also see he gives you credit for having him thrown off GT. Hey he gave me credit for that in his Super Double Secret 1911 Forum of a couple years ago so at least I'm holding good company. And the price of those 1911's his Stewdents are turning out has skyrocketed. Man we should of jumped in on the ground level on that one aye.

I'm still building those Belt Feds and trying to make as many MG Shoots as I can weather permitting. Here are a few pics of our Sept Shoot in Camden, TN

Always A Pleasure Tuner And Keep Saving The Pups You Know I Do.

John

Some Of The Toys
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/MP5Guy/CamdenPicsToys2.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/MP5Guy/CamdenPicsToys1.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/MP5Guy/CamdenPicsMaximIn7.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/MP5Guy/CamdenPicsMG42.jpg

Pups
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/MP5Guy/DogsOnAirMat2500OKMail.jpg

ulflyer
December 10, 2005, 06:52 AM
John, fine looking threesome. What kind is the spotted one?

Your "toys" ain't too shabby either.:)

1911Tuner
December 10, 2005, 09:30 AM
Nice collection, John. I haven't been to a MG shoot in years. Not since I was invited to the SOF Convention when it was in Charlotte back in the early 80s. Had a blast...pun intended.:cool:

Yeah...Dave blames me for that boot, and I guess there's no convincing him that I had nothing to do with it. I actually tried to keep him on board because he did some really nice custom work, and he could have been a contributor if he could have gotten past his main obsession. On several occasions, I even went as far as editing some of his comments that would have gotten him banned immediately if a few of the other mods had seen'em.
I didn't get to the one that killed the pooch, and never even asked the mod who pushed the button on him what he said. Ah well...

Anyway...He ain't here to fight back, so it's probably better to just let it lay.
Never been much to beat on a man in public if he can't offer his side of the story.

Onward!

1911Tuner
December 10, 2005, 10:58 AM
Aw man! Just noticed the dogs. Great lookin' bunch. I've got 12 now.

Might be best to lock this one out before it starts to draw heat.

Woof!

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