[The Silver Bullet 1719]

Okay this has been bothering me for a long time. I have heard that if you leave a semi with a fully loaded magazine for long periods of time the spring will compress and break or cause jams. I have heard both sides, my brother-in-law had a Glock 17 with a 17 round magazine and he kept it loaded with 6 or 7 rounds to avoid hurting the springs. I have a cousin that has a Glock 17 and keeps it loaded 24/7 with 17 rounds and has for about 8 years give or take. So is it a real concern or not?

[Croyance]

Why not go with your cousing to the range and find out?

[dfariswheel]

The latest evidence suggests the real problem isn't long-term compression, but the constant loading and unloading of the spring when magazines are rotated.

This suggests that more "damage" is done by the cycling of the spring than if it's just left compressed.

It seems that most "weak spring" problems happen with foreign made springs of uncertain quality. Good American springs have been left loaded for a GOOD many years without failures.

You pays your money, and you takes your chances.

I've left magazines loaded for 5 years without problems.

[boing]

Not all springs are alike, and neither are all magazines.

A properly designed spring will last and last, as long as it's not compressed beyond its design limit.

A properly designed magazine won't allow a spring to be compressed beyond its design limit.

So the answer is..."yes". :)

[4thHorseman]

Right from Wolf Spring web sight.......

http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html



5. Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? How often should I change magazine springs?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as law enforcement applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs which are loaded up only when shooting. Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. Older designs where maximum capacity was not the goal such as the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was a lot of room for a lot of spring which reduced the overall stress on the spring. In recent hi-capacity magazines, the magazines were designed to hold more rounds with less spring material. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but is not always practical. In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular shooting will verify reliability and regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs.

[Akurat]

Right from Wolf Spring web sight.......

http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html



5. Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? How often should I change magazine springs?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as law enforcement applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs which are loaded up only when shooting. Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. Older designs where maximum capacity was not the goal such as the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was a lot of room for a lot of spring which reduced the overall stress on the spring. In recent hi-capacity magazines, the magazines were designed to hold more rounds with less spring material. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but is not always practical. In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular shooting will verify reliability and regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs.

Well, they're trying to sell springs. The info on their site is geared towards that purpose and that purpose alone. Not completely useless, but you do have to be aware of why they would provide such info.

[Dobe]

Think of the springs on your car. They will surely last a life time, and they stay compressed. They will last a lifetime, unless you overload the car, or hit a bad bump, or many bumps in a short period of time.

I believe that a spring will keep its memory unless you supercede a point (over compress), or over heat it (a car on a continuous bumpy road).

[gbelleh]

I've always heard that leaving a magazine fully loaded doesn't weaken the spring as much as repeated loading/unloading. I just load up my defense pistol mags and leave them loaded until they're fired. I've never had a problem with weak springs.

[Hkmp5sd]

I've had some magazines that were loaded and left untouched for over 3 years that functioned perfectly when I finally got around to using them. The only magazines that have given me problems after prolonged storage while loaded were generic Glock and 1911 magazines.

[BigG]

Well, they're trying to sell springs. I rest my case.

[Gary G23]

I've had a couple of different guns that failed to feed when the mags springs were left compressed for a long period of time. Nowadays, I buy quality springs like Wolff or ISMI and change them every year. I think ten dollars a year is cheap insurance when a spring failure could cost you your life.

[cslinger]

I've had a couple of different guns that failed to feed when the mags springs were left compressed for a long period of time. Nowadays, I buy quality springs like Wolff or ISMI and change them every year. I think ten dollars a year is cheap insurance when a spring failure could cost you your life.

Or you could just buy a nice revolver and be done with it. :D
Sorry I just couldn't resist.

I have never had a problem with leaving magazine springs compressed in factory quality magazines.

I have seen 1911 magazines fired after being loaded for decades work just fine.

I do believe the magazine and spring is one of the weak links in a semi automatic but I don't believe they are as fragile as people make them out to be.

FWIW I keep a semi-auto by my bedside most of the time but I have loaded revolver or two close by also.

Chris

[Handy]

Comparing the huge and only slightly compressed springs of a car to wire springs that are compressed to a small fraction of their relaxed length is questionable.

Mag springs especially, get worn out. It happens often enough to enough people to be obviously true. The only real question is, what wears them out quickest?

[Dobe]

Handy,
What wears a spring out is constant heat buildup from useage or over compression. If you do not over compress, the spring should last forever (assuming no rust, etc)

A bad or poorly constructed magizine may be over compressed at 5 on a 7 round magizine. I am not surprised to hear of some who have had mags fully loaded for 10 years (with well made magizines) with no malfunctions.

Handy, why do you feel that shocks on a car wear out? Do you think that they would wear out after 50 years, if your car were parked in a garage (assuming constant temp and humidity)?

[Handy]

Well, I had the springs on a sports car wear out, but my comparison was really that I would expect the car springs to last longer.

Handgun springs are not exactly overbuilt. They are the smallest, lightest springs that will do the job. Compare them to the springs used in a 9mm SMG, were size is less of an issue.

If you wanted a 7 round mag that would last forever, use a much longer coil spring and make the mag 10" long. Cramming a wire spring in a tiny space and expecting zero fatigue is unrealistic.

[stellarpod]

It seems to me that it is all a function of design.

I believe the following to be true. If not, I'll happily stand corrected:

Springs, like any other metal component, are limited by the yield and tensile strength of the metal. The yield is that point at which load results in permanent deformation. Tensile refers to the amount of load that actually causes failure of the material. A proper spring design is one in which the yield strength is not exceeded, and therefore does not cause permanent deformation.

Unfortunately, as a spring flexes the metal begins to "work-harden". And as the hardness increases the yield and tensile strength decrease. Any of you who have bent a piece of metal wire back and forth until in broke have experienced exactly the process that I'm describing - work-hardening and eventual failure.

It seems to me then, that constant loading and unloading, and the resulting compression and relaxing of the spring constitutes a higher risk of failure than leaving the mags fully loaded.

Of course, I could be totally wrong.... :)

stellarpod

[Dobe]

stellarpod,

I couldn't have said it better.

Thanks

[Hawaiian]

This same question has been asked a thousand times on automatic knife springs. Will it weaken the spring to store the knife closed with the spring compressed? It makes no difference on the modern coil spring autos. Many have been stored closed for years and still work like new. The constant opening/closing is harder on the spring than storing it compressed, yet they rarely fail even with hundreds of repetitive openings. No magazine is ever worked like this. Yes, the older style leaf springs can heat up and break from repetitive openings. But again, you are not going to heat up a magazine spring. I think the same rule applies, if it is a quality spring and not some china cheapie, there should be no problem with compressed spring storage.

[larryw]

Loading/unloading is worse than keeping the spring compressed? Shooting wears mag springs out faster than leaving them compressed? Uh huh...

Load the back of your truck with dirt and let it sit for a year to discover how a spring reacts to long term full cycle compression.

Frankly, I'll follow to Wolff's advice. Based on the "logic" they're only trying to sell springs, we're to ignore the advice of gun smiths because they're only trying to sell services and doctors because they only want to bill our insurance company? I guess I have a bit less cynical view of the world.

I take half my mags, load them for a month. I then use the other half for my range sessions durning that month. Swapping them out the first Saturday of the month also allows me to do a very important duty: inspection (which some may argue will only make Wolff rich when I replace the springs every ten years, needed or not).

Ten minutes a month for a lot of peace of mind.

[Archie]

the ONLY magazine springs prone to failure if left loaded were the 20 round M16 magazines.

Yes, other springs fail as individuals, but en masse it just doesn't happen.

All you lawmen types who carry semi-auto pistols: Has your department ever passed any information regarding changing magazines or unloading magazines?

Mine neither.

[sm]

Took twenty five Wilson 47 D's loaded up for awhile(6-12 months) with carry loads.
Gunsmith brought 10 more that had been loaded for about 8 months.

New pistol that I wanted to be sure of carry loads, before CCW.

Results: 1200 rds fired that afternoon. No Mag failures, no ammo failures, no gun failures.

Gunsmith and I had sore thumbs from loading mags, and sure had a pile of brass to pick up.

I rotate carry loads, which means I rotate mags. Most of mine stay loaded. Others I use for students ammo. Some of the older mags have springs replaced, just because of pc of mind in CCW.

[larryw]

Archie, I'd also be interested to hear how many surplus magazines (those not required for duty use) your and other departments issue for your weapons

Also, out of curiosity, how many rounds of ammo does your and other department provide for annual practice? A family member just retired (injury) from a local PD. He's called his department's annual ammo provision a too light for a month's use and woefully inadequate for a full year.

Unfortunately, many of these policy recommendations, driven by a budget that's created by a few accountants from the safety of their desk, ignore what's in the best interest of the officers and public.

regards,
Larry

[Dobe]

Larry,
Economics drive both sides of the argument. Certainly a PD has limited funds, and a spring manufacturer wishes to increase revenue.

That doesn't make either entity bad, it is just reality.

Anyway, it all has made for good discussion.

Dobe

[Sven]

I load my new mags all the way up and leave them that way for a while - makes loading easier. My Wilson mags even instruct me to do this...

I aways leave them topped off, as well.

Have only been shootin' for just over a year, so who knows what will happen on the long term.

When you have a feeding problem, swap mags. If the same mag keeps giving you problems, get a new spring and or follower. If that don't work, it might be damaged otherwise.

Until my mags cause a failure, I don't see a reason to worry.

[PCRCCW]

Ive ruined mag/recoil springs very quickly...it just depends on the spring. Wolff springs are as good as youll find. I use them in all applications I can...recoil, mag, main, striker etc......
Imported springs can act very good yet have questionable results.
Meaning..they seem to have ALOT of tension while being loaded...yet have multiple failures while in a gun...
Replacing the springs always stops the failures in this case.
Over compression is the killer of most quality springs....using them is what they were designed to do...load reload etc etc etc.
I store my mags for months at a time, sometimes...Ive never had a Wolff fail because of it.....

A simple way to tell if you are overcompressing your mag springs is this...top off your mags. Now (gently, but firmly) push down on the top round...you should have some spring tension left...if you cant budge the round..not even a little...you just killed your spring. Some mags only hold what they are rated...some more and some less...just make sure you use good springs, check out the rest of the mag, tubes, plates, followers etc and they should last a long time.

Shoot well

[JohnKSa]

Ok so compression cycles work-harden a spring until it eventually breaks.

How many of you have had a mag spring actually BREAK?

So, it would seem that work-hardening isn't the issue.

From what I've seen, the problem is that the springs eventually relax to the point that they don't put enough pressure on the follower to insure reliable function. That is a function of being compressed to the limit. Any spring will relax to a certain extent after being fully compressed. The longer they are left compressed, the more they relax.

[stellarpod]

John:

Work-hardening affects both tensile (break point) and yeild (point of deformation). Whether it breaks or not, it may cause the yeild strength to be affected enough to result in the spring loosing some of its resiliency, hence inability to spring back and do its job, shoving the next round to the top of the magazine properly.

stellarpod

[JohnKSa]

If work-hardening were the problem, we'd hear of at least a few broken mag springs. Have you heard of ANY?

And if work-hardening is what causes a spring to relax, then why can I easily get 15 rounds into my Glock 20 magazines after leaving them loaded for a week or two. Before it took all my strength to get in the last round. BTW, no shooting or loading & unloading occurred during this interval.

[PCRCCW]

Work hardening is a vague term....here anyway.
Its not work hardened", as in to a finite point....usually of breakage.
Its work hardening"...or the act of becoming harder/loosing its inherent strengths by design little by little until......

Stellarpod is very accurate in his depiction of what happens...

Using the spring will eventually work harden/start the cycle, after time.....overcompression will accelerate this process to the point of making the spring mechanically/functionally worthless......

Just my own interpetation......

Shoot well