[longeyes]

January 24, 2005
Illegal Immigration Is a Moral Issue
by Victor Davis Hanson
Tribune News Services

As President Bush's guest worker proposals slog through Congress, new reports suggest that there may be not 8 million, but almost 20 million illegal aliens in the United States, a population larger than most entire states. $400 billion in taxes—almost the current annual budget deficit —are not collected due to a growing underground cash economy.

Mexico brazenly issued a survival guide for its intrepid citizens on how to cross illegally into the United States. A 2,000 mile border is porous at a time when stealthy terrorists count on such laxity to enter the United States.

The hallowed assimilationist formula has too few overt defenders these days —even though measured, legal immigration, English emersion, multiracialism instead of multiculturalism, and integration have ensured that past legal immigrants from Mexico are among America's finest citizens.

The laissez-faire right still lectures on open borders as if it were a matter of robust lawful immigration—emphasizing global competitiveness that accrues from cheap labor. The minimum wage, not illegality, supposedly is its only problem: if only the self-correcting market could be set free to adjudicate wages, $2 an hour might not tempt any more from rural Mexico.

The therapeutic left will not even talk of "illegal immigration"—taboo nomenclature that supposedly denotes racism. "Undocumented workers" is the politically correct terminology, even though not all aliens are working or simply misplaced their certification.

If employers count on inexpensive industrious laborers in the shadows, chauvinists envision a revolving, but still permanent unassimilated constituency to enhance their own agendas. In response to the tired rhetoric, perhaps it is better to envision illegal immigration from Mexico not as a question of divisive politics, but of collective morality. Is it ethical for the Mexican government to export annually 1 million to 2 million of its unwanted citizens to avoid long-overdue reform —hoping to free itself of dissidents and earn $12 billion in subsidies from its poorest abroad? No wonder Mexico talks of the problem in terms of U.S. imperialism in lieu of its own cynicism.

Is it moral for employers to count on illegal industrious workers, usually without English or education, to undercut the wages of American citizens—as if a laborer remains youthful and hale in perpetuity with no need of social entitlements when disabled or impoverished years later? No wonder employers claim that they are only providing a service to Mexico's poor.

Is it so liberal that governments must pay for those who ignore the law while citizens go without? In California, the money to incarcerate more than 14,000 felonious illegal aliens from Mexico—well over $400 million—would fund the start-up costs of 20 university campuses like the new University of California at Merced, at a time when Americans (including many first-generation Mexican-American citizens) who are eligible for higher education cannot find access or financial support.

Is it so fair to assume that the unemployed in our midst—over 10 percent of the work force in many counties of the American Southwest that are most affected by illegal immigration—cannot find entry-level work? No wonder we insist that no one can discover a citizen to mow the lawn or cook his food—as if 30 years ago our yards were weedy and we did not eat out, as if states without illegal aliens have poor landscaping and empty restaurants. Picking an illegal worker up at the local lumber yard, paying him in cash for a day of digging, and then dumping him on the curb at twilight — "out of sight, out of mind"—is neither liberal nor humane even if done in Santa Cruz or Carmel.

And is it equitable that laws must be sacred for most, but not for some? Do we really want a bureaucratic system near collapse from fraudulent Social Security numbers, off-the-books wages, false names, cars without registration and insurance, even as millions abroad queue up to enter our shores lawfully? Are we to tell waiting Punjabis or Filipinos to certify their education, skills and method of support—even as we ask far less of those who break the law to cross the border from Mexico?

Who, then, is the real moralist? Is it the police officer who stops an illegal alien but cannot call immigration authorities? The contractor who knowingly accepts falsified identification and pays untaxed cash wages? The La Raza ("The Race") activist who promotes ethnic chauvinism for those to whom it will prove most deleterious? Perhaps the grandstanding Mexican consul who faults the United States for his own country's callousness?

Or is it the rest of us, who in fear of being slurred as "racists" or "nativists" often keep silent—just when candor and honesty on all sides are needed now if we are to avoid becoming an amoral apartheid society with a permanent underclass in the shadows?

©2004 Victor Davis Hanson

[Darkmind]

Good read! Thanks.

[lostone1413]

As long as are country keeps letting illegals come in with our borders wide open not enough threads for me. Can't figure how if your white your a racist but if your non-white your an activist. Anyone know how that works?? If we had millions of illegals coming in this country from Europe anyone think the goverment would stop it? I'd bet in a heartbeat they would!

[R.H. Lee]

The whole argument about morality and racism as it relates to illegal immigration is a red herring. We as a nation have no duty, and are under no obligation, morally, ethically or otherwise to assimilate and support millions of border jumpers coming out of a thoroughly corrupt country.

The core of the argument is our survival as a country. There is (or used to be) a distinct American culture. We communicate with each other using a common language-English. We share common values, love of family and country and liberty. Unless we get control of that border and stop the illegal immigration, we will become, in Theodore Roosevelt's words, a polyglot boarding house. I don't want that for my country. Do you?

[Ralphpeters]

http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-164831MINUTEMAN_PROJECT.html

Look at this link. Longeyes has posted links to the minuteman project and american border patrol. Please tell me again what taking the high road is.

[R.H. Lee]

Sheesh, Ralphpeters, get a grip :rolleyes: We are no more affiliated with those groups than you are with Aztlan or LaMecha.

[Ralphpeters]

Well i have seen links to those groups on this forum. I have seen people defending those groups in this forum. I see people just like you agreeing with the author of the above article. Victor hanson makes a living out of illegal aliens. It is about all he writes about. He also endorses ranch rescue and the american border patrol. Longeyes has put up links to the american border patrol and the minuteman project.
Get a grip? If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck.............

[lostone1413]

I can't see any American being against closing are borders to illegals. I don't care what country they come from.

[longeyes]

Ralphpeters:

If Prof. Victor Davis Hanson is a "racist," then I guess I am too. He's good company. He doesn't make a living off illegal aliens and neither do I. I'll take a big leap of faith here and assume he doesn't support Stormfront, the White Aryan Resistance, the KKK, or skinheadism in general. Neither do I.

I'll keep posting what I think is informative about illegal immigration topics because I think we are here to educate one another about important issues. My concern is the protection of this country and support for LEGAL immigration. This is NOT about bashing Mexican-Americans or legal immigrants of any provenance. It is about sovereignty, national security, and American values.

If you wish to tar every opponent of illegal immigration as a racist, that is your problem. I think many of us who are interested in the issue recognize that this is going to be the Left's standard response. As far as I am concerned, Hanson's remarks are dead on target in terms of the moral hypocrisy not only of Mexico but of Mexico's American-based sympathizers. I have always assumed that "the High Road" lead only one place: the truth.

[longeyes]

Ralphpeters:

I hold no brief for American Patrol or the Minuteman Project. If I posted links to them it was to draw attention to what they are saying and doing. I think we need to know what's going on--and what isn't going on.

It is your contention that these organizations must be somehow "racist." You know, I would much prefer that our own Government address this problem in a direct, honest, responsible, and forthright way, fulfilling not only the dictates of our Constitution but the overwhelming will of the American people. Right now such is not the case. Is it any wonder that various citizen groups, reflecting a variety of attitudes and approachs, are arising to fill the vacuum? The more pressure we put on elected officials to come to grips with this problem the better off we will all be. It is not going away. And neither am I.

[Art Eatman]

"Shooting the messenger" when facts are presented is not exactly the ultimate in intellectual maturity.

Calling "racism" in lieu of rational argument generally shows a lack of any reasoning about an issue.

Art

[Ralphpeters]

Your right. Im wrong continue with your Klan meeting.
Why dont you stop deleting my posts?

[longeyes]

I've heard that Victor Davis Hanson is a favorite in the White House. May it be so, that's all I can say. Hanson is anything but a racist or "anti-Mexican." He knows a fair bit about the history of warfare too.

[Art Eatman]

I don't remember if it were late 1958 or early 1959, but no matter. I came out of a movie in downtown Tallahassee one Saturday afternoon, to find a small crowd of folks along the sidewalks. I asked what was going on, and was told a KKK parade would be along soon.

Sure enough, here they came in full white linens. Maybe 15 or 20; no more. As they passed where I was standing (On Monroe Street, maybe four or five blocks from the Capitol) I just couldn't resist:

I stepped forward and called out in my best Drill Sergeant voice, "Look at all the form-fitting hats!"

Heckuva note when you can't even start an attitude-adjustment party...

But, what the heck. I got a good many laughs from the crowd.

I guess that typifies my attitude about any racist group of whatever sort. It's a reasonably lengthy period of record, for that matter. (Where wuz yu in 1958? :))

As to THR, I don't care what views are put forward on whatever subject, so long as the issues are what are argued and not the personalities.

Art

"I'm gonna have fun, no matter what the rest of the world thinks."

[Selfdfenz]

"I stepped forward and called out in my best Drill Sergeant voice, "Look at all the form-fitting hats!"

What a crack up. :p :p :p
Good on you Art.

I wish I could come up with stuff like that when things are happening as opposed to 2 hours or 2 days after the fun, is done.

S-

[Standing Wolf]

Victor hanson makes a living out of illegal aliens. It is about all he writes about.

Victor Davis Hanson is an historian of considerable repute. Your allegation is entirely out of touch with reality.

[Waitone]

Racist here. ;)

I won't say if I consider illegal immigration a moral problem, but I will say the cause of illegal immigration very clearly is. Creeping Institutional Lawlessness (tm) certainly is. If you think we have a problem with criminal immigration just wait until the great unwashed, taxpaying masses collectively conclude they too can violate law with impunity. Indians would call it civil disobedience.

Whaddya think? Tax law, gun law, motor vehicle law? So many place to start.

[longeyes]

By the way, Jim Gilchrist of The Minuteman Project was on KFI (AM640) here in Los Angeles today (John & Ken Show). KFI intends to embed a reporter with the border surveillance contingent this spring.

[R.H. Lee]

Round 'em up and ship 'em out. It's been done before. Operation Wetback (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/OO/pqo1.html). I never heard of this before today. Art, you got any input on this? Were you there?

[Art Eatman]

There weren't all that many wets around Austin during WW II. I saw many of them out around Pecos during a summer job in 1952; they were working in the cotton fields and canteloupe farms in the Toyah valley area.

I went to the Philippines in 1949/1950; got out of high school in Kerrville the next year and after a couple of confused years trying to "do college" I went into the Army in January of 1954. So, I mostly missed the "Operation Wetback" era.

As far as displacement in the workplace, there were horrendous fights in one Mexican dance hall at Pecos*. The Lulacs (a citizen Mexican political group) hated the wetbacks (moja'os) for "stealing jobs". Knife fights...And the cosmetic surgery women could do on one another with spike-heeled shoes!

Art

* I asked Jim Wilson about that dance hall, and he said it's still there and yeah, there are still fights...

[hkOrion]

anyone ever think that Illegal Immigrations is a LEGAL issue. if I go out and rob a store, it's not a 'moral' issue. it's pretty clean cut. same thing here, just a larger scale and not as blunt.

hkOrion

[R.H. Lee]

I wonder if Skeeter Skelton or Bill Jordan were involved in Operation Wetback, didn't it happen around the time they were in Texas? The claim is that some 700 lawmen rounded up and repatriated 1,300,000 illegals. That's impressive.

[rock jock]

Anybody ever listen to the Tom Martino show? He had an interesting theory today. He related the fact that the No. 1 perpetrators fo ID theft are illegals, and that the govt. knows this but has no desire to stop it since they like getting taxes, even if from illegals stealing your identity to gain a SSN.

[longeyes]

I said eventually the minuteman project would be brought up and they are racist and lo and behold there longeyes is putting a positive spin on em.

That Longeyes...there he goes again. :D

[Art Eatman]

RileyMc, coulda been. Quien sabe?

In the FWIW department, in more bygone daze, "wetback" was not particularly a negative term. It was just a way to differentiate citizen Mexicans from those who'd come across the Rio Grande without papers.

You might ask a laborer, "Tienes papeles?" (Do you have papers?) and get a grin and an answer, "No, soy moja'o." (No, I'm a wetback.)

Most of the wets I've met are pretty good folks. Limited in skills, but pretty honest about giving a day's work for a day's pay. They don't have any more respect for the Mexican government than I do, but they're helpless to do anything about it...

Art

[longeyes]

The Mexican people, I assume, have the same aspirations to freedom as anyone else. If we are bent on nation-building we know where to begin.

Should we assume that if Iraq were on our borders Bush's policy would be simply to absorb millions of Iraqis?

A situation where Mexico, both formally and informally, is able to meddle in our internal affairs, but we shy away from direct demands and influence on them, is a formula for political and social disaster. Bush needs to do a lot better than a "guest worker" program.

[ed2010]

Speaking of Mexico:

Official says challenge in international courts possible to block voter-passed Proposition 200

January 28, 2005
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A Mexican government official has threatened to use international courts to block an Arizona law meant to limit public benefits and voting rights to illegal residents of the U.S.

Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said in a radio interview Wednesday that an international strategy would be used if other attempts to reverse Proposition 200 fail, the Associated Press reported.

"We are seeking all the legal opportunities that exist, first using the legal capacities of the United States itself and ... if that does not work, bringing it to international tribunals," AP quotes Derbez as saying.

Mexican officials have repeatedly complained about Proposition 200, which went into effect Tuesday. The statewide measure denies most taxpayer benefits to illegal aliens and requires state workers to report applicants for such benefits who may not be eligible. It also requires anyone registering to vote in the state to show proof of citizenship and bring a government-issued ID to the polling place.

AP reported Derbez expressed regret that, according to polls, about 40 percent of Mexican-Americans in Arizona supported Prop. 200. The measure passed with 60 percent of the vote.

"It's sad, and it gives an idea of how we have to work to educate even our own Mexican-Americans about why it is important that these proposals are not accepted," Derbez said.

The Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund has challenged Prop. 200, saying it is "an illegal, impermissible, unconstitutional state attempt to regulate immigration policy, which is a fundamental function and responsibility of our federal government. Proposition 200 is mean-spirited and un-American."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42589

[R.H. Lee]

I cannot describe how much that pisses me off. :fire: If our elected officials had any guilianis, they'd tell Mexico (and any 'international tribunal') to kiss off. :cuss:

[lostone1413]

FACT!! People form third world countries coming here can only make us a third world nation. Being in AZ I for one support Ranch Rescue 100% They are doing what are goverment should have the balls to do! I wonder all the do gooders who don't want to close our borders will fell when we have the next 911 and it comes out they just walked across the border. If that happens GWB and all the rest should be charged with treason!

[longeyes]

If Mexico attempts to strongarm our sovereignty by fatuous appeals to international bodies they are going to do nothing but force the American people to stiffen their backs on this whole issue. Not recommended: there is already a growing anger toward illegal aliens and the Mexican government in this country. One does have to marvel at the amazing gall of some of the Mexican oligarchy--they have convinced themselves, it would appear, that they have some responsive friends in high places.

So far the "pushing" has been all in one direction. That may not always be the case.

[flatrock]

The mexican government can appeal to whatever international courts they like. They will be laughed at or ignored if they think those courts have any jurisdiction over our state laws.

Sure there will be some liberals who might complain that we need to be more cooperative with the international community, however they may find out rather quickly that voters get really pissed off when some international body starts demanding that we do something that our voters have deemed unacceptable already.

I'm not worried about international courts. I'm worried about our own courts. I'm worried about activist judges finding some form of constitutional protection for free benefits to illegal aliens that only they can see in the constitution.

[wingman]

I grow very weary of some folks who see a racist behind every rock, we
need to discuss immigration, it is an important issue, it is numbers that
matter, not the color, race, gender, etc. It's about control of our future,
quality of life, freedom.

Mexico just happens to be one of the biggest source of problems, the government of Mexico looks to us the American taxpayer to fund the life
of there richest folks and it "appears" our government is willing to help.

I have lived near the Texas/Mexican border for years and problems continue
to grow worse in terms of crime, cost, texas is looming large as the next calif.

We need controlled, legal, limited, immigration.

[longeyes]

I'm not worried about international courts. I'm worried about our own courts. I'm worried about activist judges finding some form of constitutional protection for free benefits to illegal aliens that only they can see in the constitution.

I agree and foresee this as a major Constitutional battleground ahead. We need to draw some distinctions about granting benefits as opposed to according basic legal protections. The other Constitutional flashpoint has to do with children of illegal aliens getting automatic citizenship.

[moa]

Our government will do nothing of consequence concerning illegal Mexican aliens.

If we actually close our borders and start rounding up meaningful numbers of Mexican illegals and shipping them home, most likely there will be major civil unrest in Mexico, maybe another revolution. The nation south of our border may fall into serious chaos.

I think our government leaders see that, so nothing will be done except some window dressing on the issue.

Anybody agree with the above?

[lostone1413]

They have civil unrest in Mexico. Answer- 1 build a higher fence 2 have more armed guards in the towers. Can't see any benefit with us having anything to do with any third world nation. That is unless are leaders want to make America like them

[Selfdfenz]

moa

I do agree somewhat.

I think if the US demonstrates the will to control illegal immigration by closing the border and deporting people here illegally, the Mexican people that want to come and work here will do whatever we ask. If we want to put'em in a database, issue biometric cards, you name it they will do it. And they will pay for the programs.

I also think if the US shows a will to prosecute the ever loving heck out of employers that hire illegals American employers will also do whatever is asked.
They will also pay the tab if it means cheap labor.

We can never expect the right thing to happen on the border by doing nothing and asking the illegals and employers to do nothing.
Not rocket science.
S-

[longeyes]

There is "chaos" in Mexico now; that is why people are leaving.

Whatever we do we cannot introduce chaos here in order to prevent or minimize chaos down there.

There are a lot of actions that can be taken to deal with this problem. Right now I don't see us using ANY of the options available to us.

[wingman]

Bill cracks down on firms hiring illegals
Oklahoma state senator hopes to protect American workers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: January 26, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

An Oklahoma state senator has introduced a bill to penalize employers that hire illegal aliens.

Democrat state Sen. Tom Adelson introduced S.B. 510, the Oklahoma Fair Employment Act, which would allow citizens and legal U.S. residents to take action against law-breaking employers.


The Federation of American Immigration Reform, or FAIR, says the bill is a response to the federal government's refusal "to take action against employers who undercut opportunities and wages for American workers."

FAIR points to a report by investment firm Bear Stearns that shows between 4 and 6 million U.S. jobs have shifted from the legal work force to the underground since 1990, "as employers have systematically replaced American workers with lower wage illegal aliens."

"There is a mounting body of evidence that the vast majority of poor and middle class Americans are being directly and indirectly harmed by mass illegal immigration," commented Dan Stein, president of FAIR. "These American workers and taxpayers have had almost no legal recourse to defend themselves against employers who blatantly violate federal immigration laws while depriving millions of Americans a fair opportunity to find work and improve their wages. The Oklahoma Fair Employment Act represents one of the most important labor protection programs since the establishment of the minimum wage and the adoption of occupational safety and health standards.

Adelson's bill allows for:


The right of authorized U.S. workers to take action against employers who discharge them while continuing to employ illegal aliens;

Suspension of corporate charters of companies that knowingly employ illegal aliens;

Companies employing illegal aliens to be barred from state contracts or grants; and

Granting of safe-harbor status to employers who verify the eligibility status of workers using the online "Basic Pilot Program" established by Congress in 1996.
"These protections for American workers and honest employers should be adopted nationally. We congratulate Sen. Adelson for acting in the best tradition of Oklahoma and offering them 'sooner,'" Stein concluded.

[Basura Blanca]

RileyMc says: Sheesh, Ralphpeters, get a grip We are no more affiliated with those groups than you are with Aztlan or LaMecha.

Really? Not according to our detractors. They want to link us (the "us" being the collective gun owners here) to "certain" groups in an attempt to demonize us even more. Why feed them that fuel for their fire? It's just plain dumb, IMO.
Don't believe me? Look for yourself. It's exactly (i.e. a literal link) to Stormfront.org on the list (right under the Second Amendment Foundation).

link (http://www.vpc.org/linksndx.htm)

Talking about the "border issue" is one thing, but when the term "wetback" gets tossed around as an acceptable term, you're only proving that the VPCs claim of a "racist connection" does indeed exist in the gun community.

Our image matters to me. Why the hell does it not to so many others here?

[Basura Blanca]

Lostone1413 says: They have civil unrest in Mexico. Answer- 1 build a higher fence 2 have more armed guards in the towers. Can't see any benefit with us having anything to do with any third world nation. That is unless are leaders want to make America like them


The "build a bigger fence" solution.
:rolleyes:

Ok, so you don't see any benefit from the U.S. dealing with a third world nation. I won't argue about your opinion as that's senseless really. But the real challenge will be to project your sentiments on all the businesses that have moved to Mexico to escape paying taxes (further raping the third world of money for it's own infrastructure), complying with environmental laws, complying with labor laws and for the sake of cheap labor. Do the terms NAFTA and it's expanding waistline known as the FTAA mean anything to you?
You might not see the benefits, but big money U.S.-based business sure does and they're looking to expand their horizons even further.

Have you ever even seen the southern border?
Lately?

[spartacus2002]

A Mexican government official has threatened to use international courts to block an Arizona law meant to limit public benefits and voting rights to illegal residents of the U.S.

Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said in a radio interview Wednesday that an international strategy would be used if other attempts to reverse Proposition 200 fail, the Associated Press reported.

"We are seeking all the legal opportunities that exist, first using the legal capacities of the United States itself and ... if that does not work, bringing it to international tribunals," AP quotes Derbez as saying.

hmm... meddling in the internal political affairs of a neighbor country could be considered an act of war.

[Selfdfenz]

I must have missed something but:

Basura Blanca
"Talking about the "border issue" is one thing, but when the term "wetback" gets tossed around as an acceptable term, you're only proving that the VPCs claim of a "racist connection" does indeed exist in the gun community.

Our image matters to me. Why the hell does it not to so many others here?"

VPC lists the NRA, Ppaul Revere Assoc and GOA which I think are AOK with the Stormfront NAZI organization (which I can't begin to describe here for fear of being booted for the language I might use). That says every thing about VPC and nothing about the decent group of thsi site.

1. Since when does VPC do our collective thinking for us?
2. Can we be assured they will play fair and give us an A rating if we kiss their heines? Saw up our firearms
3. I'm not comfortable with negative terms like wetback but for someone with 50 posts who appointed you Ms. Manners?

It seems that for some reason some HRs have stated calling or accusing other HRs of being racist or White Supremicists or whatever too commonly in a few of the last threads. I'm not a mod but without proof, making such a statement ought to get the writer banned IMO. That just seems very un-THR like.


S-

[spartacus2002]

Hear Hear! Let's stop with the "racist" word. This thread started out as a thread against illegal immigration, not as a thread against Mexicans (and besides, last time I checked, "Mexican" was a nationality, not a race).

I propose a new Internet law similar to Godwin's Law: anyone who throws down the racism card in an illegal immigrant debate before there is actual racism expressed is automatically deemed to have lost the argument.

Do I have any takers?

[Art Eatman]

I explained this in one of the other "border" threads, but here it comes again, Maw:

"Wetback", during my growing-up years, was not a pejorative term. It was and is a descriptive term for those crossing the Rio Grande without papers. It's a casual identifier, separating them from citizens of Mexican background. The reality is that it's only a Texas word, since crossings west of Texas are not across the Rio Grande.

In the 1970s, teasing one of the ranch hands at our deer lease, I asked, "Tienes papeles?" "No, soy moja'o."--with a grin. Essentially, "Do you have a Green Card (papers)?" "No, I'm a wetback." He and I both saw it as a joke, and I really doubt that either of us would care about Political Correctness.

So, yeah, words get changed, but I guess folks will have to deal with the fact that I was here first...

:), Art

[lostone1413]

I believe anyone in this country who sees nothing wrong in Illegals just walking in is in the wrong country. The benefit of having them here is zero. Any cop I know in AZ will tell you over 50% of the arrest they make are illegals. My wife works in the emergency room at the hospital here in AZ. 8 out of 10 that go to the emergency room can't speak english. The goverment picks up the tab. In CA the illegals have for the most part broke the state.

[longeyes]

When the Government fails to respond as it should in critical situations over which it has proper and just jurisdiction, the people will look to alternatives. That is what is beginning to happen. Is it ideal? No.

I heard Gilchrist of The Minuteman Project on a radio program the other day. His first layer of recruits are all ex-LEO and military. No white sheets or race-baiting.

Should we go after employers? Yes. Will we? Doubtful. This problem begins and ends in Washington, D.C., and we all know that. Bush is only carrying forward a policy that started quite a while ago and appears to be a deep aquifer under both parties.

[spartacus2002]

The minuteman project has a very large number of White supremacists. I wouldn't support this kind of action. 1 They are vigilantes. 2 I wouldn't want to give any legitamacy to these neo klansmen.

ROTFL... and you know this because you have interviewed them all? Or are you just buying what Morris Dees has to sell? I'd advise you that his livelihood depends on him finding Klansmen in every closet, under every bed, and in every backseat.

[longeyes]

The Minuteman Project, from what I have heard (Gilchrist, radio), is about surveillance and "exposure," not confrontation. It's designed to draw attention, bigtime, to what is going on at the border, to the full magnitude of the problem. Chis Simcox, the journalist (Tombstone, AZ) is involved. As I have said earlier, KFI in L.A. is going to embed one of their reporters on-site.

Someone is going to have to do something about this situation--unless we just want it to worsen.

[roo_ster]

Ralphpeters wrote:
Victor hanson makes a living out of illegal aliens. It is about all he writes about.

Thanks for confirming you haven't read much of Hanson's work.

moa wrote:
Our government will do nothing of consequence concerning illegal Mexican aliens.

If we actually close our borders and start rounding up meaningful numbers of Mexican illegals and shipping them home, most likely there will be major civil unrest in Mexico, maybe another revolution. The nation south of our border may fall into serious chaos.

I think our government leaders see that, so nothing will be done except some window dressing on the issue.

Anybody agree with the above?

I somewhat agree. I think it would be better to close off the border & force Mexico to do some serious resuffling.

The same families that were on top 200 years ago are still on top. The open border allows the steam to be let off and allows Mexico to keep going on in the same manner it always has.

I think we do Mexicans no favor by acting as the pressure-relief valve for a corrupt Mexican oligarchy.

[longeyes]

And when we finish with the corrupt Mexican oligarchy I suggest we move on to dealing with our own...

[Basura Blanca]

Selfdfenz says: VPC lists the NRA, Ppaul Revere Assoc and GOA which I think are AOK with the Stormfront NAZI organization (which I can't begin to describe here for fear of being booted for the language I might use). That says every thing about VPC and nothing about the decent group of thsi site.

1. Since when does VPC do our collective thinking for us?
2. Can we be assured they will play fair and give us an A rating if we kiss their heines? Saw up our firearms
3. I'm not comfortable with negative terms like wetback but for someone with 50 posts who appointed you Ms. Manners?

It seems that for some reason some HRs have stated calling or accusing other HRs of being racist or White Supremicists or whatever too commonly in a few of the last threads. I'm not a mod but without proof, making such a statement ought to get the writer banned IMO. That just seems very un-THR like.


But of course, because it's all about post count, the content is meaningless...
:rolleyes:

First off, I'm no newcomer to this discussion, guns or anything else you might want to insinuate about me so shelve your accusations, ok? Your argument is pointless if it's based on time spent on THR, number of posts, etc. What would be the point of posting if that alone determined credibility? Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question.

Secondly, you've missed the point. When we get lumped into a group of race-haters like Stormfront, we all suffer.

Your right, who cares what us gun owners get called by VPC or any of the other fanatical anti-gun groups out there. But who cares what the casual, less-informed people in the middle of the gun issue begin to believe when they see that Stormfront is a "pro-gun lobby group". Who cares if more soccer moms believe that the NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation are teaming up with racist "pro-gun" groups.
Don't you get it? It's not about how we see it (i.e. the truth) it's how other folks on the outside of the gun clique see us as representative of the "gun" culture.
It's our image being drug through the mud by those who hate our guts and who wish to smear us any which way they can. That was my point in the above post.

Rather, than fighting me, you should be thanking me for pointing out things that you likely have overlooked from our "enemies", like the VPC, for years. How many times have you contacted VPC to ask/demand that they cease with this specific smear tactic? Now ask me the same thing. I'm on your side as a fellow gun owner, but you're letting your emotions and assumptions about me hinder you from seeing something so obvious.

"Racist"
Find a post (I've only got 50!) where I outright just called anyone a "racist". I'll gladly kiss your tushy if you do and the offer stands for anyone.

You can sling your b.s. that this and that aren't taking "the high road" all day long. I have a few of those accusations against others here myself. If you want to see all dissenting voices "banned" then I suppose for you, the term "hypocrite" would be more appropriate. Talk about your "rights" and "freedom and liberty" out of one side of your mouth but squelch the comments that go against the status quo of THR.

Funny, no... it's actually pretty sad.

[R.H. Lee]

Secondly, you've missed the point. When we get lumped into a group of race-haters like Stormfront, we all suffer.
How is that line of reasoning any different than saying all illegal immigrants are lazy criminals who come here for the freebies?

[longeyes]

Don't you get it? It's not about how we see it (i.e. the truth) it's how other folks on the outside of the gun clique see us as representative of the "gun" culture.

The issue of unchecked illegal immigration touches on but goes way beyond the "gun culture." It affects this society's political, social, economic, and cultural foundations. Not all Americans are concerned with gun rights--though we may fervently believe they should be--but all should be concerned with illegal immigration.

It would wonderful if those of us who oppose illegal immigration were able to have a true public forum, in open public view, to debate these issues. Ideally, that should be the floor of Congress, and maybe it will be, but it is clear that entrenched powers on both sides of the aisle are doing their damnedest to prevent free discussion and to thwart representational government on this matter. That said, most Americans, when polled, still oppose illegal immigration by a very wide margin. The public's vision on this issue is far clearer, it seems to me, than it is on Second Amendment issues.

[longeyes]

you've missed the point. When we get lumped into a group of race-haters like Stormfront, we all suffer.

I think it is you and a few fellow travelers who are doing the lumping. I haven't detected any Nazi flag-waving on this forum, just some legitimate concerns about the multiplex impact of illegal immigration.

[Basura Blanca]

Longeyes says: I think it is you and a few fellow travelers who are doing the lumping.

No. Not me. Look at the Link (http://www.vpc.org/linksndx.htm) I provided. The VPC wants the less-informed out there to think that Stormfront White Nationalist is part of the same "pro gun special interests" out there like the NRA, GOA, etc.

You can fight me on it all you want. I don't particularly care as it doesn't change the facts about what they are saying about us.

[Basura Blanca]

RileyMc says: How is that line of reasoning any different than saying all illegal immigrants are lazy criminals who come here for the freebies?

I honestly don't understand your rhetorical question. Are you saying you don't mind being grouped together with race-hating organizations like Stormfront? I'm dead serious - your post makes no sense to me. Sorry.
:confused:

[R.H. Lee]

What I don't get is how being opposed to uncontrolled illegal immigration equates to stormfront type race-hating. I can't control what some whacked out psycho liberal from hell says or thinks.

[Basura Blanca]

Longeyes says: Not all Americans are concerned with gun rights--though we may fervently believe they should be--but all should be concerned with illegal immigration.


True. But my issue isn't what you pulled out of context when you quoted me.

What I meant originally was: Do you think that using derogatory terms like "Wetback" on a predominantly gun oriented web forum would look "ok" to someone who just curiously started browsing around this place to see what all the "gun nut" fuss was really about? To the casual, fence-sitting (on the gun issue) citizen, what would seeing that likely instill in them?

Do you not see the danger to our image when faced with that potential scenario?

Do you not understand that when anti-gun groups slander good, honest pro-gun lobby groups by associating their names with groups that are unquestionably racist, that it isn't a good thing?

Do you not see that you are proving beyond all doubt to "them" that we "gun nuts" are nothing but a bunch of Bubba-rednecks by posting links, etc. to groups with racist-overtones that support some of these vigilante border patrol groups too?

[R.H. Lee]

Don't take Basura Blanca's bait. It's a thinly veiled leftist tactic known as 'wedge issue'.

[Basura Blanca]

RileyMc says: What I don't get is how being opposed to uncontrolled illegal immigration equates to stormfront type race-hating.

By providing support for groups that actively get behind some of these vigilante border crusades which even the Border Patrol don't think are good ideas.

Never mind the lawfulness (or lack thereof) of citizen arrests and detentions made by armed vigilantes against misdemeanor tresspassers.
Never mind the constitutional issues of due process and search and seizure (yes, it applies to so-called "illegal aliens" too).

Look - (the highlights are mine, of course.)

Civilians to 'assist' in patrol of border

Foes fear effort will fan tension

Susan Carroll
Republic Tucson Bureau
Jan. 24, 2005 12:00 AM

More than 200 volunteers from across the country have signed up for the "Minutemen Project," a civilian border patrol that plans to converge in southeastern Arizona this spring for a monthlong mission to help the U.S. Border Patrol, organizers said.

A Web site recruiting volunteers features Uncle Sam pointing a finger and reads: "The U.S. Wants You! Are YOU interested in spending up to 30 days along the Arizona border as part of a blocking force against entry into the U.S. by illegal aliens?"

The volunteer response has been overwhelming, organizer Jim Gilchrist said.

Gilchrist, a retired accountant who lives in California, said the group's 234 members plan to meet in Cochise County in April to conduct round-the-clock patrols in the San Pedro Valley, a popular smuggling corridor. The project's goal is "to assist the U.S. Border Patrol, not interfere with them, not take the law into our own hands."

"This is about coming together to send that message to Washington that this is our country, too," Gilchrist said. "This is not an Arizona issue. It is an issue of a United States of America."

Border Patrol officials are not enthused by the project. And immigrant advocates say the group's efforts will only stoke tensions in Cochise County, which has a reputation for vigilante violence dating back decades.

The Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups, is monitoring the "Minutemen Project" closely after seeing "a lot of interest" in the project on neo-Nazi Web sites, said Hedi Beirich, center deputy director.

"We have lots of concerns that National Alliance members and other neo-Nazis are going to show up to participate," Beirich said.


History of violence
Cochise County, home to Tombstone and formerly Pancho Villa country, has a long history of allegations of vigilante violence dating to an infamous case in summer 1976.

Rancher George Hanigan and his two sons were accused of hogtying and torturing a group of Mexican men, burning the soles of their feet and shooting them in the back with buckshot. The elder Hanigan died before trial. A Cochise County jury found the two sons not guilty.

For the next two decades, there were periodic reports of violence against migrants, but the situation got much worse in the 1990s as illegal-immigrant traffic through the county swelled.

Rancher Roger Barnett and his brother started detaining undocumented immigrants on their sprawling, 22,000-acre ranch property. The detentions, and allegations of violence, have prompted four lawsuits by civil rights organizations.

The problem peaked in 2000, when Cochise County residents complained that they were being overrun. Last year, roughly one out of five of the more than 1 million undocumented immigrants arrested trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico border crossed through Cochise County, population 120,000, according to the 2000 census.

The outcry by local residents and ranchers attracted anti-illegal immigration activists, mainly from California and Texas. Organizers for the American Border Patrol say members only observe and publicize what's happening on the border through Web sites, twice pretending to smuggle a "weapon of mass destruction" over the border. ??

A group called Ranch Rescue staged operations in Cochise County, but recently had problems with U.S. Border Patrol and FBI agents, ending with the arrest of one member on gun charges and the shooting of another member, who survived.


Border Patrol's stance

The Minutemen group is associated with an organization called Civil Homeland Defense, established by Chris Simcox, a 44-year-old retired kindergarten teacher who moved to southern Arizona from California. Simcox, whose civilian volunteer patrol has "peacefully" turned in more than 3,900 undocumented immigrants during the past 2?1/2 years, said he welcomed the help after being approached by Gilchrist.

"We're going to be holding our president accountable," Simcox said. "If he doesn't do something, he's going to face more and more people rolling up their sleeves and coming down here."

The members plan to meet at an undisclosed location in Cochise County on April 1 for an orientation session. The group will set up a "communications center" on private land with sophisticated equipment and five staff members. Organizers said landowners along the border have offered to let volunteers camp and park RVs.

Gilchrist said he is screening applicants by requiring they provide resumes and making sure they are not associated with "fringe groups." He said the volunteers are a "well-educated bunch," including Ph.D., a lawyer, politicians and former law enforcement and retired military members.

The members are from 36 states, including 77 from Arizona. He added that some volunteers plan to bring their children.

David Heppler, a 27-year-old Phoenix native, said he signed up for the project and plans to spend a few weekends in April on the border. He had been down to Cochise County before, he said, to help out Simcox and said he thinks the Border Patrol appreciates the efforts.

"The Border Patrol seems to be real happy," Heppler said. "They're strapped for resources. They can't be out there in every spot. I think they need some help."

But Border Patrol officials said that is not the case.

"We see them (Minutemen) like we do all these other civilian patrol groups," Tucson sector spokesman Andy Adame said.

"We don't endorse them or support their actions, especially when they take the law into their own hands," Adame said. "We feel there is too much risk involved when you ask the public to get involved in apprehensions. It could result in somebody getting hurt."

Organizers said there are strict rules for how members can and cannot treat migrants, adding that there is a "no contact" policy.

"They should only talk to immigrants to ask if they need water, food or medical attention," Gilchrist said. "They are not to block them in any way. They are not to threaten or approach in a threatening manner."

Also on the list of no-nos:

"No rifles. No long-guns," Gilchrist said. Side arms are OK.) No camouflage during trips into town. And, he said, "Swastikas are not welcome."


Group has critics

Gilchrist, 56, said the problem with illegal immigration came to his attention in the early 1990s when he tried to get his aging mother a federal rental subsidy in San Bernardino County, Calif.

"They told me the $200-something-million was gone. They said, 'We have so many illegal aliens coming in here, as well as poor American citizens.' "

Gilchrist said he asked: "What about my mother?

"I had to put her in a nursing home," he said. "And two days later she had a heart attack and died. I never forgot that part. It's not like I'm out to get somebody for that, but that's . . . when it dawned on me that, gee, what's going on in this country? I thought this was the United States of America for U.S. citizens. But I realized slowly that it wasn't. It was for whoever got here by whatever means necessary whether they were legal or not."

Ray Ybarra, a Douglas native and an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, said the group's actions seem to stem from fear of assimilation.

"It seems like they're just really afraid of the change that's inevitable, that's happening around them, and they're trying to act out on the frustrations by coming out here and engaging in illegal activities," he said.

Gilchrist takes offense at anyone who calls his organization a "militia" or questions the group's motives.

"How can somebody call us that?" he asked. "They have to judge us by our actions and see."

Ray Borane, the mayor of Douglas, a border town in Cochise County, said he could do without the Minutemen.

"If they really want to serve their country, the ones who are young enough to join the Army or the Peace Corps should do that, and the ones who are too old for that . . . should stay home and write letters to their congressmen," Borane said. "They're not going to do any good here. They get in the way."


Source (http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/0124minutemen24-CP.html)

[Basura Blanca]

RileyMc says: Don't take Basura Blanca's bait. It's a thinly veiled leftist tactic known as 'wedge issue'.

:rolleyes:

So you can't handle having any sort of dissent in your discussion either, huh?
You'd rather see post after post on THR that read, "yes I agree", "+1", "Thumbs up!".
Wow.
That'd be some compelling "discussion" and conversation for sure.

:rolleyes:

[Yowza]

Border Patrol officials are not enthused by the project. Well, why would they be? Is it not an indication that they're not worth a flip when civilian organizations have to come in and point out how poorly they're doing their job?

I saw an interview on Hannity and Colmes the other night with someone from one of these organizations (I don't remember which one) and all Colmes did was rail about how the "authorities and experts" didn't think any of this was a good idea. Now I'm not saying I necessarily think it's a good idea myself, but if the "authorities and experts" opinions were worth anything, this stuff would not be necessary in the first place.

Rick

[wingman]

Border Patrol officials are not enthused by the project

Please remember the line troops may agree with the "project" however
the spokesperson must always be PC. Appearence in government is
everything.

[longeyes]

It is to be expected that the Powers That Be would be less than happy about ordinary citizens acting as if they have some say in how their country should operate. Uppity peons, getting in the way! What else is new? The government people don't wish to be embarrassed or forced to take a stand. The illegal alien lobbyists keep repeating their mantras of "inevitable change" and "racism." That's not new either.

That average citizens should feel compelled to have to leave job and family to provide surveillance at our southern border is scandalous. It is infuriating that Americans who believe this nation is theirs and that they should have a voice in its border policies should be tarred as irresponsible "vigilantes" or Nazis.

Supposedly the people on this forum believe in individual empowerment, in our right to defend ourselves and resist tyranny, along with our right to establish and maintain a free and civil nation. We should be applauding the efforts of groups like the Minuteman Project for having the spirit and will to put themselves on the line for the most basic of American values. To knuckle under to the entrenched forces that preach a status quo of appeasement and "cooperation" is self-destructive and could prove fatal to this Republic.

As for Hannity, I've enjoyed him many a time, but he's convinced himself that the illegal immigration issue can be confined within the "9-11 national security" box. WRONG. This is about a lot more than whether terrorists are exploiting the absence of border controls, though that is, no doubt, an extremely troubling subset of the problem.

[Intune]

Basura B said- Never mind the lawfulness (or lack thereof) of citizen arrests and detentions made by armed vigilantes against misdemeanor tresspassers.
Never mind the constitutional issues of due process and search and seizure (yes, it applies to so-called "illegal aliens" too).
Where you see "misdemeanor tresspassers" some see invaders. Is it legal to enter the U.S. illegally? :p Do you support all criminal activity as long as it is committed by someone trying to make a better life for themselves? Do you feel that any of the U.S. was "stolen" from Mexico? I'm trying to get a handle on why you feel these people should not be treated like the criminals they most assuredly are.

[R.H. Lee]

Move along citizen. Nothing to see here. Let the authorities handle it.

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm just a bit confused here; As I understand it, "wetback" is slang for an illegal immigrant from Mexico.... Ok, I suppose it's derogatory, but I'm not allowed to insult criminals?

[Art Eatman]

Ozone, consider for a moment: If you've spent years trying to deal with a series of criminals, and The Law has done little or nothing to stop it, what should you do? You repeatedly ask for help from the government and it's not provided: Why are you supposed to just endure criminal activities?

You pay taxes on yur land. You pay taxes on your income. Yet, you do not get the services PROMISED by government.

Are you just supposed to supinely lie there and ignore damage to your property, burglary and many other crimes?

"How long, Oh Lord, how long?"

So: Sympathetic people, observing that the government does little or nothing, volunteer to help as best they can. This is a bad thing? People shouldn't be willing to help a neighbor?

Police power is inherent in the people. The People have delegated this power to what are known as "Police". When that delegation is abrogated, what then? Are we to consider that Government is all-wise? All-knowing? Competent to decide which laws should be enforced and which should not? Is there no duty on the part of these with their delegated authority to provide some semblance of safety to ALL the populace? Or, at least, to make an effort to do so?

Art

[longeyes]

Mexico does not want to invade the US. There is not chaos in mexico. There is only poor people trying to support there familys. Go after the employers, write your congressman. Do something positive. DOnt promote vigilantes and hate groups.

Illuminating. Mexico does not want to invade the U.S. No, it's just that ten per cent of Mexico is already living in the U.S. ILLEGALLY. There is no chaos in Mexico. That's why millions of Mexicans are choosing to leave their country behind.

The people on this board are not promoting anything but a lawful and sane solution to what is becoming, day by day, an enormous problem and a serious threat to our future liberties (importing a vast new proletariat is a great vehicle for de facto socialism). Right now we have a climate of obstructionism in our government; one way or another that is going to have to change.

[Intune]

Ozone, do you believe that all of the illegals here should be rounded up and deported after the borders are made secure? And if no, why not?

[Art Eatman]

Basura Blanca: You see a noble objective. You find no active, official governmental, effort toward achieving it. You put a volunteer group together (Habitat for Humanity will serve as an example).

Now: If some "undesirables" come to work with this group, should the fact that they are undesireable mean you should disband your effort? The obvious stipulation is that you have little control as to the makeup of the membership.

Similarly, should the fact that Stormfront's views about gun control parallel ours mean the NRA should cease its efforts?

There are some nutzoids and crazies in the U.S. Congress. Should we disband Congress? Don't answer that. :D:D:D

I'm in accord that there is a certain amount of need to avert negative allegations that come from methods of expression, but I for one am not going to totally rollover as to words I've used for over a half a century.

Art

[wingman]

Border Line: Teetering Tensions on the Mexico Border
By Paul Strand
Washington Sr. Correspondent

January 4, 2005



CBN.com –ARIZONA – MEXICO BORDER - One of the very first things congressional leaders have promised to do this year is take up legislation that would crack down on illegal immigration.

Congressman James Sensenbrenner's (R-WI) demand that such measures be included in the 9-11 intelligence overhaul late last year ended up derailing that overhaul for weeks.

CBN News recently traveled to the Arizona-Mexico border, where angry residents are screaming for a crackdown on illegals. That is because the massive flood of foreigners is ruining many Arizonans' way of life along the border.

Some three million illegals likely sneaked across the border between Mexico and Arizona last year. In their way are a few tens of thousands of ranchers and other Arizonans, Americans who are growing angry at the crimes and hassles these illegals inflict on them as they sweep in from Mexico.

Cochise County Concerned Citizens founder Larry Vance said, "We've been robbed, our dogs have been poisoned, our house broken into."

Glenn Spencer, founder of the American Border Patrol, remarked, "We've had murders, mayhem."

Chris Simcox, Civil Homeland Defense founder, added, "Property damage, cut fences, homes being shot up."

And rancher Mark Knaeble, who lives on the border, said, "You can see how hard it is to walk back and forth into Mexico.”

The border is in Knaeble's backyard.

In recent years, Knaeble was robbed "…every 60 to 90 days,” he said. “Something would disappear, usually tools from the shop, or they would break into the house."

Vance said, "Rape, robbery, beatings, it's a common occurrence right here."

Vance lives within eyeshot of the border, and sometimes videotapes the illegals pouring in. They frequently target a little old lady living near him.

"She's been robbed, the last I heard, 57 times," Vance said.

Knaeble commented, "Other people have been tied up and their guns and valuables loaded into their vehicles, and, like at my house, a vehicle could be across the border in less than 30 seconds."

Just on the Mexican side of the Mexican-Arizona border, CBN News noted about 38 people probably getting ready to come across under the cover of darkness, in just a couple of hours. And literally all there is between them and America, is knocking out one strand of barbed wire and crawling through a fence. All they risk is maybe ripping their pants.

Some Americans, like ex-Californian Chris Simcox, have moved to Arizona just to bring attention to the crises of a border they consider way too open. He uses the bully pulpit provided him by being editor and publisher of the Tombstone Tumbleweed.

Simcox said, "Everyone along the border has been screaming, begging, pleading with the federal government to do something about this."

Until then, his biggest worry is that terrorists intent on launching the next 9-11 are going to sneak right in through the wide-open spaces, and, indeed, may already be trying.

"There was a large group of Middle Eastern men who were captured by the Border Patrol in the Chiricahua Mountains back in June," said Simcox. The men spoke Farsi, the language of Iran.

Simcox added, "The media and the Border Patrol covered it up by saying that they were a tribe of Huahacan Indians who didn't really speak Spanish, and that the Border Patrol agents were confused. They were met at the headquarters in Wilcox by federal agents, who quickly whisked the group away."

Vance showed us a Muslim prayer rug found right near his house. He said, "And it shows there's not just Mexicans coming across there, 'cause I don't think there's many Muslims in Mexico."

Spencer, another ex-Californian like Simcox, has started the American Border Patrol to highlight the many dangers of a too-open border. His group put a simulated suitcase nuke, marked with a huge nuclear symbol, on one of their members and had him hike in to Arizona from Mexico, and go right up to a federal building in Tucson.

Spencer said, "We went right on television and told the Border Patrol 'we're going to do it again.' A week later we went to the same place and did it again. We could do it again tonight!"

One thing Spencer's group is doing, is working with unmanned aerial vehicles that can constantly feed live video of the border to the Internet for all the world to watch.

Hi-tech wiz and former Army sniper Michael King remarked, "You could have this thing for between $30 and $40,000, and have your own UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle) program."

They would like to eventually have 20 UAVs flying, enough to keep almost the entire Arizona-Mexico border under surveillance. Meanwhile, border residents like Vance and Knaeble will keep showing news media what it is like along the border, hoping to shame a government they think cares too little about what is happening here.

Vance said, "It's an ugly situation that's going to get a whole lot uglier unless the American government does something about this."

Knaeble said, "There've been several shootouts in my driveway near the tower."

Drug-smuggling abounds, not just of marijuana, but of "…cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin," commented Vance.

And with so many illegal immigrants hiding in wilderness areas now, some Americans are even afraid to go camping there.

Many hospitals and clinics are going bankrupt from treating illegals for free.

Knaeble remarked, "Jump the fence and then say you need a doctor. We'll treat them, and so it's creating a tremendous burden on the medical system in Arizona."

And so many illegals are leaving so many tons of their garbage and waste strewn across the desert, it is beginning to seriously degrade the environment.

Why doesn't Mexico do more to stem the tide of illegals? Some think the Mexican government is actually promoting this flood of foreigners.

Simcox said, "Many of these folks that are coming here are the rural mountain Indian tribes who are systematically being purged from Mexico. Mexico doesn't want them, Mexico doesn't want to have to pay for them, so they tell them to go to America."

Spencer added, "They call this Aztlan, the part that Mexico lost as a result of the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo. They want it back. That's what they're doing!"

"They simply flood us with people the same way the United States did this territory back in the 1800s," said Vance.

Mexican-American activist Alfredo Gutierrez thinks this is nonsense and says this Latino takeover was just a dream of some college-age Hispanic radicals back in the 1960s. He states few Mexican-Americans would stand for a takeover by Mexico.

Gutierrez said, “We're here because we left Mexico, and we left Mexico because there was no democracy, there was immense corruption, and there was no future."

Gutierrez and activist lawyer Daniel Ortega are busy fighting a ballot measure that Arizonans just passed 56-to-44 percent, on Election Day.

Proposition 200 would mandate that people in Arizona voting or signing up for certain benefits would have to show proof that they are citizens.

Prop 200 backer Randy Pullen points out that illegals cost Arizonans more than one billion dollars a year.

Pullen said, "Right now, the welcome mat's out and it says 'come up here. You can get public benefits, social benefits they can't possibly get in Mexico that they can get here.' And now what we're saying is that the welcome mat is no longer out."

Daniel Ortega, fighting Prop 200 in court, objects to this push to make life miserable for illegals. He said, "It's already been said and announced by the same proponents of Proposition 200 that they intend to do the same thing in at least five other states."

President Bush has promised action on immigration this year. He wants to give illegals a new legal status, that of guest workers. He said, "We want our Border Patrol agents chasing crooks and thieves and drug-runners and terrorists, not good-hearted people who are coming here to work."

A lot of Arizonans think that will just make the crisis worse.

Spencer said, "It'll become an amnesty. You won't be able to control it. And it will cover, eventually, half of Mexico (45 million people) eventually could become legalized. And you have just lost the sovereignty of the United States. That's what's at stake here."

Vance said, "These people will cry about the rights of the illegal aliens, but say absolutely nothing about the rights of the American citizens who are being run over by this situation."

[wingman]

Just in the past few days 4 chinese illegals were picked up in San Antonio, tx
as they landed at a local airport they had hired a small plane to fly them in
from border area, not sure if it made national news.

Below is another indication of what and who is crossing our borders, this
problem will only grow unless we act to stop it.







Terrorist's clothing
discovered in Texas?
Suspicious jacket shows plane flying toward tower, Arabic military badge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: January 27, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com


The discovery in Texas of a jacket featuring an Arabic military badge and an airplane headed toward a tower with the words "Midnight Mission" is fueling fears of a possible connection to terrorism.


Patch depicting plane flying toward tower with words 'Midnight Mission'


According to a Department of Homeland Security morning brief marked "For official use only," a report from Customs and Border Protection noted that on Dec. 23, Border Patrol agents stationed in Hebbronville, Texas, found a jacket with an Arabic patch in a lay-up area on Highway 285.

The jacket is said to have a total of three patches, two sewn on the back, and one on the inside.

The two patches on the back were an Arabic military badge and one with the letters "Daiwa," while the patch on the inside read "Midnight Mission."


This "Midnight Mission" patch features a logo depicting "an airplane flying over a building and headed towards a tower," according to the brief.

The military patch with the Arabic writing shows the image of a lion's head, with wings and a parachute emanating from the animal.


Arabic military patch said to read 'way to immortality'


The report notes, "DHS translators concluded that the patch read, 'Defense Center,' 'Ministry of Defense,' or 'Defense Headquarters.' The bottom of the patch read 'Martyr,' 'Way to Eternal Life' or 'Way to Immortality.'"

The brief also states, "The 'Daiwa' patch stands for a corporate company which sells sport fishing products with corporate offices in eight countries including Japan, the U.S., Australia, France, Germany, Taiwan, Thailand, and the UK."

The report notes the document "may contain initial and preliminary reporting which may or may not be accurate or be supported by corroborative information. The [Homeland Security Operations Center] is actively evaluating the reporting to establish its accuracy and to determine if it represents a possible link to terrorism."

No one from Border Patrol or Homeland Security was available for comment on the jacket and patches by press time.




The morning briefs produced by DHS are a daily roundup of suspicious activities covering a wide scope of events. Other typical entries logged include the arrests of individuals tied to terrorism, bomb threats at sensitive targets such as oil refineries, and this month's train collision and chemical leak in Graniteville, S.C.

The discovery of the jacket comes at a time when defense of U.S. borders and domestic security top the concerns of Americans, according to a recent poll.

Just yesterday, both President Bush and Congress addressed the need for reforming immigration laws and protecting the border.

Bush continued his push to grant illegal aliens guest-worker status, while a leading member of his own party, Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., has introduced a get-tough crackdown dealing with driver's licenses, political asylum, deportation and border security.

Meanwhile, James Gilchrist, a retired California businessman is beginning the "Minuteman Project," with 240 volunteers ready for a month of aerial and ground surveillance on the Arizona-Mexico border.

"This border issue is about all 50 states, not just Arizona or Texas," Gilchrist told the Washington Times. "It's about our Constitution and how it applies to all of us."

[lostone1413]

Have to stop it one way or another! If it was any other country other then Mexico are goverment would look at it as an act of war. Time to seal the borders herd them up and send them back!!!!!

[Selfdfenz]

ozone,

I Googled part of your post.
Los Angeles, Alta California - December 10, 2002 - (AP) Chris Simcox, the vigilante who recently called for an armed militia and an uprising against Mexican immigrants in Arizona, left Los Angeles two years ago because his life

I got this:

www.aztlan.net/simcoxvigilante.htm

At the bottom of the webpage if you click the pyrimid you can go right to:

www.aztlan.net/index.html

How'd that AP tidbit get in there???? Hmmmmmm?


When I Google the first part of the Spencer stuff I get:

www.aztlan.net/spencerarrested.htm


I don't know if Simcox and Spencer are racist or not but I don't consider the sites I found your information comes from "fair and balanced" in even the most remote sense of the term.

The issue on the border does not "belong" to the racists and the assorted racist nuts with whom they associate. If you persist on drawing that linkage you will seem much more credible if you select you reseach more wisely.

I'm not so sure this aztlan outfit isn't just a bunch of hispanic racists.

Till you come up with some source or resources to tar and feather this movement better than this.....I call BS on your information. And I think you know what that means. And that is a first for me regarding any THR post ever!!
Have a great evening,

S-

[macavada]

Illegal immigration as an act of war?

[Art Eatman]

No, I wasn't there at the time: IIRC, Malinche was the name the Aztecs gave to Cortez. Thus, those allied with outside interests are traitors. Since Aztlan seems to see itself as some sort of reincarnation of those old Aztecs, I guess they've adopted that term.

I don't know if the Aztlan folks subscribe certain other often-discussed Aztec practices...

:D, Art

[Selfdfenz]

ozone,

x-ring!
Faith restored.
S-

[lostone1413]

Illegal Immigration is an issue that tells if you put America first or not. When our goverment doesn't want to or can't protect its citizens They have a right to protect theirself. Be it Ranch Rescue or any other means

[DRZinn]

Ozone:

Thank you. So many would not have seen any problem with the source once notified.

[wingman]

Tancredo Presses Governor, Legislative Leaders to Block In-State Tuition for Illegal Aliens



Asks Owens to Wield Veto Pen if Necessary to Reject Measure


From the Office of Congressman Tom Tancredo
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 19, 2005

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Representative Tom Tancredo (R-Littleton) today urged Colorado Governor Bill Owens as well as the Speaker of the State House and President of the Senate to block the enactment of legislation designed to provide higher education benefits to illegal aliens.

"I hope you will make it clear to incoming legislative leaders that you plan to veto any legislation that will force Colorado taxpayers to subsidize the tuition of illegal aliens," Tancredo wrote in a letter to Owens. "This is a luxury we do not, and can not afford American families out of Colorado."

State Legislatures across the country are considering ill-advised proposals to extend taxpayer subsidized in-state tuition rates to illegal aliens. Federal law (8 USC 1623), however, requires that states may not extend such benefits to illegal aliens unless they extend the same benefit to any U.S. citizen regardless of their state of residence - a requirement that could decimate state budgets.

"Given the financial strain that illegal aliens place on the K-12 education system in Colorado, one can only imagine the kind of fiscal consequences that would result if state taxpayers were forced to provide tuition benefits for both illegal aliens and prospective American students from the other 49 states -on top of providing the benefit for Colorado residents," Tancredo added.

Previous proposals to force Colorado taxpayers to subsidize illegal alien tuition were rejected by Republican-controlled legislatures - although Democrats now control both Houses of the General Assembly. Similar legislation (HB 1124) has been reintroduced this year by a Democrat.

"Our priority ought to be educating Colorado's kids," said Tancredo, "not asking state taxpayers to foot the higher education bills of illegal aliens and people from out-of-state."