Can you hold the slide closed while firing?


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KelBench400
March 6, 2003, 02:14 PM
I was thinking about this the other day while reading a thread on suppressors. How much force would it take to hold the slide closed while firing? Could someone do it with their off-hand?

I think I remember someone telling me they saw someone use their off-hand thumb on the back of the slide to hold the slide closed. At the time it sounded improbable....but now I'm wondering.

Any insight would be beneficial,
Kel

Ps. Please don't ask me to try it. I like my fingers right where they are.

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dude
March 6, 2003, 02:37 PM
yes (but why?)

Smoke
March 6, 2003, 02:46 PM
I wouldn't try it unless you are prepared to loose some skin or hunks of flesh. Possibility of burns also a concern.

CZ-75
March 6, 2003, 03:33 PM
I'd expect that the slide needs to be notched to receive the stop while in battery.

Then you have a single shot gun with greater recoil that doesn't eject empties.

Doesn't sound particularly useful, unless you're trying not to leave evidence behind.

KelBench400
March 6, 2003, 03:52 PM
I was reading a thread on HKpro and someone asked if you could modify the Usp Tactical so that it would not cycle. The thought was that the action cycling created un-needed noise while using a suppressor.

I was thinking about it, and simply wondered if one could manually hold the slide closed.

I don't have a usp, I don't have a silencer, and I'm not going to try it.;) I was just wondering if it could be done like I had previously been told.

Thanks,
Kel

drannor
March 6, 2003, 03:54 PM
Doesn't the HK Mark 23 SOCOM pistol have a slide lock to achieve this? The idea being to avoid the sound of the slide cycling on a supressed pistol. I certainly wouldn't attempt it with my hand.

Hk Mark 23 (http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/mlepstl_mark_frameset.html)

Gerald McDonald
March 6, 2003, 04:10 PM
Couldnt you just shoot a hi point, chances are it wouldnt cycle anyway.
:D
Gerald

BevrFevr
March 6, 2003, 04:25 PM
It's bad enough when a gun doesn't work as intended but to intentionaly cause it to malfunction. :eek:

Now if your worried about evidence, sure you don't want to leave a thumbprint on a fired case at the scene of a shooting but I think leaving the blood, fingernails, and some skin behind might be a bad idea too. And that may be the result of trying to hold the slide in place when shooting.

Have you ever seen what happens when someone grasps an auto too high and it tears the meat out from between the thumb and forefinger? Ouch! :what:

As far as you james bond types needing ultra silence. You just better hope your target doesn't scream thier azz off after you

A) cover your sights up with your off hand :scrutiny:
B) pull the trigger and hit the target if you're lucky (see A)
C) Jam your gun
D) try to stop the bleeding on your off hand
E) clear your jam
F) defend yourself from the very angry person you just shot
G) notice how you wish the gun was coated in vaseline as it gets shoved up your... :what:

GSC alert!

-bevr

Blackhawk
March 6, 2003, 04:29 PM
I think I remember someone telling me they saw someone use their off-hand thumb on the back of the slide to hold the slide closed. At the time it sounded improbable....but now I'm wondering.I'm sure somebody tried that... accidentally -- and only once! :what:

If shooting a MkII or Buckmark, maybe. With a bigger caliber, you'd better plan on a trip down hospital way.

The slide operating does make quite a racket, but the purpose of a suppressor isn't to make operation of the gun silent. It's to make the noise tolerable.

The gentle movie "thwip" from a suppressed automatic is just Hollywood.

firestar
March 6, 2003, 04:52 PM
I have tried this on my Ruger MKII.:D It really is no big deal, it sort of viberates you hand but if you press hard, it doesn't hurt. I don't think I would try it on a larger cal like a 9mm or 45 though. I would do it if I had some leather gloves and someone gave me $50.:D

Tom B
March 6, 2003, 05:01 PM
During a Rangemasters course several years ago one drill was to hold the slide while firing one round. I forget the purpose (something about close quarters firing). We did it by holding the top of the slide and not with thumb on rear. Those with 9mms (I was using a Glock 17) didn't even use gloves and those with 40 and 45 did. No problem and no injuries to anyone. Not as bad on the hand as I had feared.

10-Ring
March 6, 2003, 05:12 PM
That's diff't :what: If your target is dead, did you pistol make a sound?

chevrofreak
March 6, 2003, 05:31 PM
on a locked breech firearm, if the slide and barrel are not allowed to travel the initial distance needed for them to unlock from each other, by pressing on the rear of the slide, the firearm will not cycle, and you likely will not be injured

BevrFevr
March 6, 2003, 06:15 PM
A bunch of GSC's running around trying to hold thier slides while firing.

Let me be the first to say that this is not a practice I endorse as SAFE gun handling!

Sure it might be possible... but let's just say that is not the way most semi autos are designed to function.

If you try this and you get hurt blame the other guys cuz I told you it ain't a good Idea! In fact if you do it and get hurt you should consider donating your air, food and water to the rest of us that can put it to better use.

To put it another way... Just because you can do something stupid and survive doesn't mean you should or that you should expect to survive if you do it again.

Man I hope no punk kid loses a finger because they read this forum. :banghead:

-bevr

jthuang
March 6, 2003, 06:21 PM
The answer is yes.

At Insights Training Center's Close Quarters Confrontations class, attention is given to contact-distance shooting and handgun retention. There may be times when the goblin you're tusslin' with has got his paws on your gun, resulting in your weapon being in an out-of-battery state.

You can use your free hand to push the slide into battery and fire a round into your assailant. You only get one shot, mind you, because the slide won't cycle.

On a Glock, take the palm of your free hand and push on the back of the slide to get the gun back into battery. Unless you have joint problems or other medical infirmities, firing the gun with your off hand on the back of the slide will not injure you.

This was demonstrated during the class and each student gave it a go. It seems like it will hurt like blazes but it doesn't.

Never tried it with a gun that features an exposed hammer, though.

Justin

Handy
March 6, 2003, 06:29 PM
The first pistol the SEAL teams used as a silenced weapon was a S&W 9mm auto with an added slide lock to hold it closed (hush puppy). The suppresor was so big that the weapon probably wouldn't have cycled had it not been locked closed.

As to manually doing it, the gun will have the same recoil as a revolver of the same weight would. If shooting a hammerless gun, like a Glock or Kahr, I would put the back end of the slide in my palm and grasp the trigger at an angle, like the cocking hold on a SAA. It will kick more than a Glock normally would, but wouldn't hurt you. A little silly, perhaps.

Browning locked autos require a specialized suppresor to function. A slide lock is a cheaper option that makes the pistol quieter, but still allows semiauto fire when you don't use it.

treeprof
March 6, 2003, 06:40 PM
Have done it w/overhand hold on the slide in a course once; no big deal. Have seen it done on a both Glock 19 and 23 w/thumb against slide. W/a firm hold, again no big deal. Not something that'd be useful on a regular basis, tho.

gbelleh
March 6, 2003, 07:27 PM
I had a friend who claimed to have shot a Glock 22 during a police training class one handed with his shooting hand thumb against the back of the slide. I never knew if he was telling the truth or not.

hksw
March 6, 2003, 07:38 PM
"Doesn't the HK Mark 23 SOCOM pistol have a slide lock to achieve this?"

It was part of the original design but that feature was dropped. Not sure why.

Johnny Guest
March 6, 2003, 07:40 PM
Don't recall why it became an issue, but I saw it demonstrated once. Couldn't believe it, so I got MY G19 from the car and tried it. Off hand thumb against back of the slide, firmly but no death grip. No pain, no injury. Did it three or four times, and decided it didn't prove anything. I've never been tempted to try it with any other pistol.

Pistols with external hammers - - -Now, THOSE might cause some pain, if you didn't clear the hammer path.:D

Best,
Johnny

akanotken
March 7, 2003, 01:40 PM
Yup, it's no big deal. People end up with cuts when the slide pinches or slices through, but you can hold the slide forward with your thumb. (I was surprised how easy it was when I learned about it too).

Think about it this way, a little dirt in a 1911 keeps the slide from cycling lots of times, obstructing with your thumb is a whole lot more effective.

I've often wondered about whoever discovered it first :) Would have liked to see the look on his/her face.

KelBench400
March 7, 2003, 02:03 PM
A bunch of GSC's running around trying to hold thier slides while firing.

Let me be the first to say that this is not a practice I endorse as SAFE gun handling!

Sure it might be possible... but let's just say that is not the way most semi autos are designed to function.

If you try this and you get hurt blame the other guys cuz I told you it ain't a good Idea! In fact if you do it and get hurt you should consider donating your air, food and water to the rest of us that can put it to better use.

To put it another way... Just because you can do something stupid and survive doesn't mean you should or that you should expect to survive if you do it again.

Man I hope no punk kid loses a finger because they read this forum.


This was purely a theoretical question. No one 'endorsed' doing it. We all know that a semi-auto isn't designed to be used in this manner. But if we can't ask questions on the forum to verify things we've been told, how are we ever to learn?

I simply read a thread where someone asked if a gun could be modified to hold the slide closed. This made me remember something that I had heard about holding the slide closed with one's off hand. I just wanted to know if this was BS or reality.

I'm not going to try it. I don't want to try it. But thank you very much to those who verified that it can be done will no ill consequences.

-Kel

hksw
March 7, 2003, 02:21 PM
I take that back. I think it was in the middle of the development of the Mk 23 that the slide lock was incorporated and then dropped. Not from the beginning.

BevrFevr
March 7, 2003, 03:28 PM
I'm all for education and asking questions.

I just wanted to make sure there was at least one stern warning against doing this.

Imagine this question "Can you fire a weapon with an obstructed barrel?"

Well, I'll bet you a dollar that some will reply with the simple answer of "Yes". Because it's true you can. I've seen a picture of a .44 mag barrel with like 5 slugs lodged in it. The shooter didn't even know it happened. But if you ask me I'll Say Hell No! Don't do it.

Well there were a few "Yes" responses to your question and noone was saying that it is generally considered a bad idea. I may have been a little too animated but I figured it was better that sitting idly by while unsafe gun handle methods were being endorsed.

While the practice may be just fine with a GLOCK try a .50 desert eagle and let me know your results or even a pocket pistol where your hand may get in front of a barrel.

-bevr

chevrofreak
March 7, 2003, 10:06 PM
if anyone even tries it with a desert eagle they deserve the injuries they will get

desert eagles use an entirely different recoil system (gas blowback) which would be nearly immpossible to hold foreward.

Kevlarman
March 7, 2003, 10:38 PM
I tried it with a Winchester 190 .22LR rifle. I tried to hold the bolt handle with my strong thumb and ended up getting a small cut on from knurling on the handle. Won't do that again.

Double Naught Spy
March 7, 2003, 11:44 PM
Holding the slide is a good way to not allow an aggressor with whom you are struggling be able to get off a second shot should he manage to fire while you hold the slide. No doubt this is not the safest thing to practice, but the injury potential is not from a gunshot wound. Like so many other types of preparedness training, doing something once and knowing what it takes should you need to do it in the future can be really beneficial. People tend not to try new or innovative techniques during an actual struggle/combat situation. If you don't know you can do it, then more than likely you won't try to do it in combat.

As for the injuries people have suffered, if you hold the slide tight enough, then it should not move. If you don't hold tight enough, then it moves and the front sight digs into your hand or fingers.

I have done the drill a couple of times. It isn't pleasant as you will definitely feel some sting, but not enough to not be able to use your hand. As near as I can equate it, it sort of felt like slapping concrete a little too hard with an open hand.

jthuang
March 11, 2003, 02:10 PM
KelBench, I see you're a fellow Pennsylvanian. If you're in my neck of the woods, I'd be happy to demonstrate it. Not unsafe at all if done correctly -- and as DoubleNaughtSpy pointed out, it can be a useful tactic in your arsenal.

Or, if you're inclined, Insights comes to Harrisburg PA to teach their CQC course. In that case, you can experience it first-hand from the pros. :)

Justin

KelBench400
March 11, 2003, 02:25 PM
Justin,

I'm just north of Allentown. Although, I'm not sure I want to actually try this.

I am looking at signing myself and my girlfriend up for some training though. She is thinking about getting her CCW this summer, and I would feel much better if she was trained. Do you have a link for the Insights training? Is it a weekend? It might make for a nice short weekend trip.

Thanks,
Kel

Sven
March 11, 2003, 05:48 PM
Wow - you learn something every day. I never would have thought. Not that I'll try, thanks. But, nice to know.

How many bad guys know how to 'tap rack bang'? Probably not very many.

jthuang
March 11, 2003, 06:03 PM
Kel -

Link: http://www.insightstraining.com

I have taken several of their courses. Top-notch training from very skilled individuals.

Unfortunately, CQC is a week-long course. But they have some very good two and three day classes that can make for a very fun and informative weekend. The range features two shoothouses and one 360 degree range.

But even better --

If you are near Allentown, you don't have to go as far as Harrisburg. Easton Fish & Game (just down 22) hosts many quality trainers, such as Trident Concepts (tridentconcepts.net), Firearms Research and Instruction ("FRI") and Walt Rauch's school (I forget the name). From April through October, you can also shoot IDPA there. Check out the website at http://www.eastontacticalops.com

Justin

KelBench400
March 12, 2003, 03:24 PM
Justin,

Thanks very much for those links. I know right where Easton Fish and Game is. That wouldn't be too bad at all.

-Kel

Marcus
March 12, 2003, 09:41 PM
Cool to see more Pa. guys here. :) A buddy of mine inadvertantly held the slide forward on my P-11 with his palm while practicing speedrocks. The bottom corners of the slide punched two small but suprisingly bloody holes in his palm and stovepiped the gun. I can see how it could work on a gun with a heavier slide and a big flat area in back (like a Glock) though,especially in mild calibers. Anyone care to try it with my 10mm Witness loaded with 180gr. Corbons? :evil: Marcus

igor
March 13, 2003, 07:58 AM
Preventing the slide of an autoloader from cycling was taught in a krav maga seminar I took some 10 years ago... the situation was handgun retention where you were the in the receiving end :what: and the idea was to fire the adversary's gun past yourself, prevent it from loading and gain an extra .02 of a second to follow up. Struggling for a revolver they taught gripping the cylinder to prevent it from rotating, thus not letting the weapon fire at all.

You should have seen the hand grenade gripping drills, though. :scrutiny:

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