[oldfella]

Forgive my ignorance, but I must ask: When I asked a clerk at a gun shop what ammunition they recommended (357/38) for home defense, some on in the store volunteered, saying "Rat Shot"- explaining that any other type ammo might go through walls and hurt an unintended person - which I knew; what I didn't know is that there was such a thing as Rat Shot... now I know. Can some one please explain if this type ammunition has any other purpose that to kill varmit... or to scare the hell out an intruder, etc. Thanks. Oldfella.

[El Tejon]

If I want to scare them, I'll put on a rubber mask.

CCI used to make it in those blue plastic capsules. They work well for killing rats. They are lousy in self-defense.

[Jim March]

What he said :).

To expand on that, here's what's going on:

The stuff has a lot of VERY fine pellets. When you shoot 'em from a *rifled* barrel, they head downrange in a "wide spray" like some sorta mini-claymore-mine :(.

When I tried some of the blue-cap 38Spl stuff from a snubbie, I put a paper target out at about 3 yards and opened up. And then missed. What the...? Rolled the target back, and started laughing. The ENTIRE PAPER (2ft x 3ft LARGE target was just peppered with tiny little pinholes. The distribution of the shot was hilariously uniform...and the blue plastic nosecap was either vaporized or never made it to the target.

(For you Europeans or other furriners, a yard is 3 feet, and a yard is very similar in length to a meter.)

I managed to determine that the "group" was spreading approximately one foot for every two feet it went downrange...and the spread was both vertical and horizontal.

Each teensy pellet can probably penetrate a human to a depth of 1/4" or so.

Upshot: if you're trying to *blind* an entire roomful of people, it sorta makes "sense" :scrutiny:. In reality, the short effective range and other obvious issues renders this crap UTTERLY unsuitable for self defense or practically anything else :banghead:.

[oldfella]

Thanks for your expanded explanation, Jim March - I sorta thought my leg was being pulled... there's no respect, I tell ya. :(

[El Tejon]

old, watch out for the GSCs! Did this same guy tell you about his days in SEEL Team 37.5 or his days chasing tangos across the plains of Northern Rhodesia in the Selous Scouts?

Maybe he used rat shot then?:D

[oldfella]

No, El Tejon - if he had I certainly would have known... being old is not the same as being dumb; but honestly, I did not know there was such a thing a Rat Shot... and that's not being dumb, just not being savvy about guns and/or ammo - I'm learning, though.

[Jim March]

Actually "snake shot" is a more common term for the stuff, but both terms are proper and are used interchangably.

Go to www.thefiringline.com and use the search feature on the words:

snake shot

...and put my username in the "username" field (Jim March). Discussions of this crap came up once in a while and my answer hasn't changed. You'll get many other similar comments in the same threads.

I know of no reputable proponents of the stuff for personal defense. If you KNEW you were going to get involved in a gunfight in a dang phone booth mebbe...:scrutiny:.

OH ya, one other thing: you'll sometimes come across "general purpose wilderness survival loads" for both medium and light game consisting of a "snake shot" pellet load capped by a round lead ball in 38/357/44 or other typical revolver calibers. This load has more usefulness than the "plain pellet loads". The idea is, if you're trying to nail a snake at your feet, the main ball probably won't hit but the pellets will, but against a coyote rabid coon or something, a round ball of 80 or so grains doing 1,000fps+ isn't bad medicine. Or hunting squirrel or small birds, you "deliberately miss by a whisker" with the main ball and take it with the pellets. The "pellet spread" won't be so crazy out of a longer barrel.

STILL not a good personal defense load but for it's intended role good stuff.

[labgrade]

I've tried the CCI snake shot stuff in .38 & in .44 - both suck - even for smallish birds and any snake anywhere past 5 feet & being over 6' tall, that's about 2' out from my own.

Just fer grins & to blow a few bucks for 6 shots, buy a pack, set up any empty Coke can (one of those very thing aluminum jobs) & shoot it at 10 feet. I've had maybe 5-10 (max) pellet hits & usually no full-through penetration. They're that good. :rolleyes:

I have heard of some decent home-made brews which uses larger shot size/s though - zip experience with these.

Do not ever even consider using these things for SD. I'm with El Tejon and the rubber mask.

Probably be better off using a blank with a pencil stuffed down the tube.

[Jim March]

Not a pencil, use a pen.

It IS, after all, mightier than the sword :neener:.

(Man, wouldn't that drive the coroner nuts? Body comes in with a dang Bic pen buried 5" deep in the guy's eyeball? :scrutiny: )

[labgrade]

Point taken, Jim.

The Bic pen did shoot through, what?, a Master lock & still write? It get cornfused. :D

Other than the powder-type residue on the pen, ..... oh well.

All I gotta say it "ballistic print" THIS.

[Thirties]

One other problem with the bird (or rat) shot ammo is the mess it make of your rifled barrel. you'll be cleaning out little silver bits forever.

[foghornl]

I have heard the term "rat shot", and as I recall, it was very small shot, probably equal to about what #12 shot would be [can you say gnat excrement speck size]?

[oldfella]

Thanks for your informative posts, every one. BTW Jim March, that website, The Firing Line, most have gone belly-up; I tried to join but was told the Registration had been disabled by the Admin :(

[Clemson]

While they have no use as a defensive round, the .38 special shot shells from CCI are useful for their intended purpose. From my 4" 686, they will shred a snake at 6-8 feet. I have a few copperheads in the bag to attest to their effectiveness. I have also dispatched chipmunks with the same load. I can break about half of the targets at skeet station no. 8 with the 686 and shotshells. That drops a few jaws around the skeet field -- particularly when the onlookers don't know that I'm shooting shot. I suppose that shot is at about a 10' distance.

Clemson

[oldfella]

Interesting - I bought a box of CCI "Rat Shot" just in case I run across a cotton mouth or a mad rooster. Thanks, Clemson.

[Jim March]

Oldfella: that forum is the now-defunct "ancestor" of THIS forum. The vast majority of us came from that forum, which had over 14,000 registered members at peak. When the owner decided it was taking too much of his time, he gave us about three weeks to sort something else out and Oleg stepped up to the plate to build this site.

But TFL (the old forum) remains as a static database of the 4+ years worth of threads, the search function still works, and there's a TON of data there. In a few cases, we took popular threads from TFL and continued 'em here; you can see an example of that in the "revolver checkout" thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1430

[oldfella]

Thanks, Jim March - it's good to know about the history of the old board; in fact, and I hope you don't mind, I did copy your entire post which was transferred to this site - I sent it to my local gunsmith with specific reference to that portion dealing with the "slight hitch" of hesitation before the hammer drops on some revolvers - my new S&W 640 has that "feature"... when I get the hang of it, that "hitch" will be my notice it is about to go bang. my gunsmith did a "polish" job and it is now much smoother. I appreciate talking to you - I'm sure I will learn a lot from you, even at my age. Regards, Oldfella

[Jim March]

Yup. Some people like the hitch, some don't. I do. I'm NOT any sort of expert or competitive shooter mind you, but a lot of the competitive wheelgunners are of the "leave a hitch in there" school.

[Greybeard]

CCI seems to do a better job of marketing "shot loads" than anyone. They pretty much dominate except maybe in .22 rimfire. I found a box of 50 by Winchester last week at Oshmans. Much less expensive that way. I have fun with 'em on bumblebees. :D

From my Glock 36, CCI .45 ACP shot load even cycles and throws a pretty impressive pattern - all pellets easily stayed on a 9" paper plate at around 10 feet. Like said above, sometimes handy snake medicine.

Over the years, one of the best uses I've found for handgun shot loads is finishing off wounded game birds.

[oldfella]

Thanks, Greybeard - the only source for ammo where I live, at reasonable prices, is wally world. I'll try that shot as soon as the weather/temps permit.

[Greybeard]

Oldfella - Ya certainly welcome. Lots of good folks and things to be learned around here.

FWIW, CCI may be the only maker you'll readily find of shot loads in calibers other than .22. There are a handful of other people who make 'em and package in boxes of 50, but many stores may not stock 'em. One mail order source at http://www.22ammo.com/index.html

[oldfella]

Thanks for the link, Greybeard, I'll keep it just in case I get a .22 some day. Regards, Oldfella

[Niekamp]

When my I was younger and my family was still raising pheasants and chickens my brother and I would go out to the barn at night with our .22 and rat/bird/#12 shot and a flashlight and shoot rats that came out to eat in the dark. Sometimes the shot would bounce back off of boards and hit us....barely stung. Was lots of fun though :) I really don't see it as being too effective, even in larger calibers as a defensive tool, IMHO.

[Steve Smith]

ROCK SALT!!!





What?

[oldfella]

Rock Salt, that's right Steve Smith - When I was a youngster (you really don't want to know when that was) I had a hand-made musket. At night, while guarding the family still, I use to use it with a heavy load of rock salt to fend off wild critters, like bear, wild cat and some pesky cattle... very effective!

[labgrade]

Do whatever you want regards "rat shot" out of a handgun.

Beforehand though, I'd suggest shooting an empty Coke can at 20 feet & seeing (for yourself) what it does, or doesn't do.

Buy a 6-pack & go shoot a light-skinned aluminum can - at 20 feet.

The stuff sucks.

I've shot a robin-sized bird at 10' - didn't kill it, shot a 3-1/2' rattlesnake 3 feet from my own - 3 times, covering the head, with the .44 cal stuff - pissed 'im off .....

Shotgun forum seems to have not just a few who know what patterning/penetration is all about - ask them.

Go shoot a can & come back & tell us what it's good for.

[Dave R]

The only thing I can add to this great discussion, is that sometimes the shot from a rifled pistol makes a "donut" pattern. So the shot goes everywhere EXCEPT where you are aiming.

I tried the CCI 9mm snake shot in my H-Power. It patterned OK at 3 FEET, but by the time you get to 3 yards, the donut was pronounced, and there only 1-2 pellets within 3" of where I was aiming.

IOW, if you aim carefully, you are guaranteed to MISS.

I look at it this way. At any range where the shot might be effective, I can hit what I'm aiming at with "real" bullets. So what's the advantage?

[Clemson]

There is a difference between guns and how effectively they handle "snake shot." I have a 4" S&W 686 that shoots a darned effective pattern out to 10 feet or so. My S&W Model 15 with the same length barrel is not nearly as good. My .45 autos don't do well with the stuff either. I think it is really gun-specific.

[RugerFan]

Years ago I reloaded my own bird shot rounds for my Ruger 44mag SBH. I don't have the exact recipe in front of me, but as I recall I used either 700X or Unique behind about 5/8 oz of #7 1/2 shot. A pre-sized gas check was used as a powder/shot separator and another on top of the shot load. The case mouth was then crimped. These rounds were actually very effective on grouse, squirrels, and rabbits up to 30 feet. I had no cleaning problems and the patterns were consistent and uniform (not donut shaped as I have previously heard mentioned).

[provalov]

Greybeard:
I'm with you on using snake shot for wounded game birds. I've carried shot shells in my Springfield XD40 ever since I had to make a close shot on a wounded dove with my 20 guage -- the only thing left was two legs and a wing. Since then I've finished off several with the .40 snake shot. Just watch for the "grit" when you are dining on your game.

BTW, I have experimented with snake shot in various loads. The .22 shell barely seems to bother copperheads unless you are close enough to them to get bit. 9mm works better, but doesn't cycle my semi-auto. 40S&W seems to do the trick best -- throws a good bit of shot at reasonable distances, and cycles the action to boot. When out hunting in warm weather, I usually have two rounds of shot shell -- one in the pipe and one in the mag, the rest are FMJ for bigger problems.