[natedog]

How would meat (beef or pork) work as a medium for ballistic testing (besides being expensive) ? Would it accurately simulate humans, or is the consistency of beef different than that of people?

BTW, is there a commercial source for ballistic gelatin?

[Preacherman]

The consistency is different. That's why the RBCD tests using hunks of meat to demonstrate the effectiveness of their bullets aren't scientifically acceptable: the density, consistency, etc. don't match human flesh, and the temperature of the meat also affects how it will react.

[DBR]

Dead meat and bone doesn't respond to bullets the same as live meat. Most living animal meat and bone is not very similar to human.

[P95Carry]

I forget where this was done but - somewhere - live goats were used! :uhoh: I'd say this might get about as close as could be managed - unless some BG's ''volunteered''. :p

[sm]

Humm...

I shoot dirt. The infamous Scientific Dirt Test if you will. I bring this up because having shot the same bullet into dirt and then into Game ( hunting) the results were remarkably similar.

I have read Mr. Camps reviews and testings since he hunts and has taken game with various handguns. He also does the Dirt test. Maybe he will chime in.

[P95Carry]

I would assume Steve ... damp or even near wet dirt??? I have on occasions put .22 HP's into stiffish moist clay type dirt (river bank etc) and found the expansion quite spectacular - and the sound was very similar to when I got hits on rabbits with same ammo .... ''thwopp'' is about how it goes! :p

[Fumbler]

I forget where this was done but - somewhere - live goats were used! I'd say this might get about as close as could be managed - unless some BG's ''volunteered''.
Strasbourg.
I dunno where that is, but the unit of measure is called a "goat of strasbourg."
I'm now sure how that is quantified either.

[esheato]

Commercial ballistic grade gelatin is available from two places that I know of: Kind and Knox and Vyse. Google 'em up as I believe they both have web sites.

From what I understand, it would be hard to use without a lab due to stringent calibration and temperature requirements.

Ed

[Harry Tuttle]

In mid-1993, the results of an authorless "study" done purportedly by shooting more than 600 goats in Strasbourg, France, were circulated, anonymously, throughout the handgun community. A copy of these "Strasbourg Tests" was sent to the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI just before a scheduled meeting of the Wound Ballistics Committee. The committee members, all respected pathologist or trauma surgeons, were unanimous in their opinion that these "tests" were, in fact, a hoax -- and had been fabricated, most likely by somebody without a medical background. A detailed analysis of these tests was published in the Wound Ballistics Review.5

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

[El Tejon]

I remember thinking when the goat fraud was first printed that "those are French goats and gave up without a fight." :D

nate, I think you can still order that jello from Dr. Fackler's group. Is this part of a high school science project? If so, PLEASE let us know how it goes. :D

You may be in the national news! :uhoh: :D

[RyanM]

Muscle tissue loses almost all of its elasticity once rigor mortis has set in. So you'd see a lot more stretch damage from impact than you would with living muscle.

[antsi]

Even if meat is a reasonable facsimile of human muscle tissue, it still would not be a good simulator of most center mass shots. Most people don't have twelve inches of muscle mass in front of their mediastinum.

[crt360]

I shoot dirt.

I have occasionally used a small cardboard detergent box (about 5-6" deep) as a target stand (target taped on front) and filled it with loose dirt clods to keep it from moving or flipping over. One day, when replacing my target, I noticed that there were a lot more holes in the front than the back. I emptied the dirt clods out and couldn't believe how many 180 gr. .40 S&W FMJ's fell out. I don't know if the Scientific Dirt Test would compare a dirt clod to a hog, but it kind of made me re-think my carrying a .40 as a backup around them.

.30-06, as you might guess, will go clean through in a big way, but I haven't tried any other rounds on it, nor have I tried just filling the box solid with fine dirt.

[mete]

In P.O. Ackley's two volume book there is an interesting chapter written about tests on live animals .The one they chose ,because the bone and other tissues were very similar to human, was the pig. However once you use butchered animals the tissues change ,both bone and muscle. Easier to find a substitute and use that for comparitive tests not absolute tests.

[standingbear]

ever gone varmit hunting with a handgun?

[thorn726]

I have occasionally used a small cardboard detergent box (about 5-6" deep) as a target stand (target taped on front) and filled it with loose dirt clods to keep it from moving or flipping over. One day, when replacing my target, I noticed that there were a lot more holes in the front than the back. I emptied the dirt clods out and couldn't believe how many 180 gr. .40 S&W FMJ's fell out. I don't know if the Scientific Dirt Test would compare a dirt clod to a hog, but it kind of made me re-think my carrying a .40 as a backup around them.

ok i guess i am wrong, but when you are trying to take someone down isnt it better if the bullet stays in them rather than goes thru?

i dont know how to elaborate properly, but my friend was telling me something to the effect of the biggest gun may ust go thru your target, while a medium large one, such as .357 enters body with a ton of force, but just less enough that the body absorbs all of the impact where a larger bullet will go straight thru, target absorbs a little less impact.

i dont know. what exactly are you guys looking for in these tests?

[P95Carry]

If a bullet ''going thru'' is from an HV rifle then even tho there is still remaining energy in said bullet on exit - the damaged caused by elastic over-stretch/cavitation can be well serious! Possibly well more than from a stopped low velocity bullet. All depends too on what vitals are hit of course.

It's an old debate - ''energy dump'' vs thru and thru... etc.

[Glock19Fan]

I want my bullets to go through to eliminate the chance of the bullet not reaching a vital organ. :)

[Harry Tuttle]

something for entry level folkes to grok:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
Wound Profile Illustrations



"The wound profile was developed at the Letterman Army Institute of Research in order to measure the amount, type, and location of tissue disruption produced by a given projectile, and to present the data in a standardized, easy to understand picture.


"The entire missile path is captured in one or more 25 x 25 x 50 cm blocks of 10% ordnance gelatin at 4°C. The penetration depth, projectile deformation and fragmentation pattern, yaw, and temporary cavity of the missile in living anesthetized swine tissue are reproduced by this gelatin. Measurements are taken from cut sections of the blocks after mapping of the fragmentation pattern with biplaner x-rays. These data are then reproduced on a life sized wound profile which includes a scale to facilitate measurement of tissue disruption dimensions, a drawing of the loaded cartridge case before firing, the bullet weight and morphology before and after firing (and calculated percent of fragmentation), and the striking velocity.


"This technique allows us to determine the wounding character of the projectile without the need for elaborate and expensive high-speed cine and X-ray equipment, or the need for shooting live animals.


"The method improves our understanding of the wounding process and should lay the groundwork to assure more rational and effective treatment." Fackler et al.1



General:




Cardiovascular Structures

Mechanisms of Ballistic Injury



Handgun:


.38 Special 110gr +P JHP (Fired from 2-inch Barrel)

.38 Special 158gr +P Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoint (LSWCHP) FBI Load (Fired from 4-inch Barrel)

9mm (9x19mm) US Military M882 Ball (124gr FMJ)

.357 Magnum 80gr Glaser Safety Slug

.357 Magnum 125gr JSP

.45 ACP 185gr Winchester Silvertip JHP (Fired from 4-inch Barrel)

.45 ACP 230gr FMJ RN



Rifle:


.22 Long Rifle 37gr LHP

.22 Long Rifle 40gr RNL

5.45 x 39mm Russian FMJ (AK-74)

.223 Remington 50gr JSP

5.56 x 45mm US Military M193 FMJ (M16A1)

5.56 x 45mm US Military M855 FMJ (M16A2)

7.62 x 39mm Russian FMJ (AK-47/SKS)

30-30 Winchester 170gr JSP

7.62 x 51mm US Military M80 FMJ (M14)

.308 Winchester 150gr JSP



Shotgun:


12 Gauge Shotgun 1 oz. Rifled Foster Slug

12 Gauge Shotgun 1¼ oz. #4 Buckshot

[Justin]

Forget goats and dead meat. Anyone worth their salt knows that the Strassberg Bum Tests settled all of this nonsense long ago. :rolleyes:

[BluesBear]

I have an idea for a test medium that would be more accurate than Jell-O and would also reduce prison over crowding...


:evil:

[Gunpacker]

Utah used to provide firing squads for condemned folks. What a perfect way to gather useful info. May even be some records available on performance there. Seems like the states with death penalties would use the opportunity to make use of the sentence. What a waste the electric chair and lethal injection are, although they do perform well being 100% sure stoppers. ;)

[Third_Rail]

Utah used to provide firing squads...


I thought they still did? :confused:

[mec]

When it comes to theories of stopping power the best bet might be to make up your own and shout down everybody elses. Why be different?

The same goes for expansion media.