Anything over 50 yrs is a C&R


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DMK
February 5, 2005, 04:31 PM
I just got my FFL newsletter from the ATF. In it, they very clearly clarify one of the biggest misconceptions about C&R eligible firearms.

So here it is, once and for all, ANY firearm, military or civilian, made before February 5th, 1955 is a C&R. Tomorrow, those made on February 6th, 1955 are elidgible. It doesn't have to be on the list and it doesn't have to be military surplus. Of course, NFA laws still apply.

Now I can find me a 45ACP S&W 1955 target to purchase with my C&R.

Here is a direct quote from the newsletter(emphasis mine):
SALES OF FIREARMS TO LICENCED COLLECTORS OF CURIOS AND RELICS

Curio or relic firearms are defined as firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monitary value from the fact that they are novel; bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event [See 27 CFR 478.11 for information on the requisite criteria ATF considers in rendering determinations under this subsection].

As a reminder, a C&R licence does not afford any priviledges to the licencee with respect to acquiring or disposing of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce. A licenced collector has the same status under the GCA as a non-licencee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms. Therefore, sales of non curio or relic firearms by Federal Firearms Licencees to C&R licence holders are subject to the Brady Law National Instant Checks System (NICS) and completion of ATF form 4473 [See 27 CFR 478.93].

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Standing Wolf
February 5, 2005, 04:59 PM
Well, heck! Does that make me a curio and/or relic, too?

P95Carry
February 5, 2005, 05:17 PM
Does that make me a curio and/or relic, too? 'Fraid so SW - you and me both (and a few others too! :p ) :D

carebear
February 5, 2005, 06:06 PM
So you can be shipped direct to someone's door? What'd that run on UPS? :evil:

P95Carry
February 5, 2005, 06:56 PM
What'd that run on UPS? For SW, as he is IIRC a trainee C&R - probably $100 for two day. Me? I will go for free .... no charge!

But - might need $50 of bubble wrap! :p

Sheslinger
February 5, 2005, 08:18 PM
What I am waiting for is some of those nice Smith and Wesson Revolvers that will be coming up C&R soon.

Chris

happy old sailor
February 5, 2005, 08:35 PM
and here i thought all i wuz wuz a burnt out ole rooster. collectable, interesting.

happy old sailor
February 5, 2005, 08:56 PM
now for a sensible and respectful reply. thank you very much for this info. yes, i have been curious and i now feel much more knowledgeable/informed. ty again

c_yeager
February 6, 2005, 06:29 AM
Well, heck! Does that make me a curio and/or relic, too?

I suspect that you have been modified from your original condition so you may have lost your status.

Diggler
February 6, 2005, 07:32 AM
Can you imagine in the future when guns like AR's, Glocks and the like will be able to be shipped door to door?

That is so cool.

Darkmind
February 6, 2005, 07:35 AM
Wow good to know, thanks for the info.

Diggler
February 6, 2005, 07:40 AM
And for those on the fence about getting your C&R, you get enough of a 'dealer' discount from Brownell's and Midway to EASILY make back your $30 in three years. You'll probably make it back on your first order!

jsalcedo
February 6, 2005, 09:12 AM
I've tried to use my C&R at gunshops.

They don't know what it is.

They are afraid to sell a gun without a 4473

Kind of frustrating.

Okiecruffler
February 6, 2005, 10:25 AM
They used to honor C&R's at my local gunshop until one of the guys sold an AK to a guy on one. That was the end of that. Biggest problem with the C&R is that people who don't deal in them have no idea what they are. So even tho' a gun may qualify as a C&R, getting someone to send it to you on your licence may be impossible.

BryanP
February 6, 2005, 10:28 AM
What I am waiting for is some of those nice Smith and Wesson Revolvers that will be coming up C&R soon.

Chris


Hey Chris, you're masquerading as Julie again. ;)

DigMe
February 6, 2005, 10:39 AM
I've tried to use my C&R at gunshops.

They don't know what it is.

They are afraid to sell a gun without a 4473


I'm not really versed on C&R licenses but I thought it basically just allowed you to have C&R guns shipped to your house rather than having to go through an FFL dealer. Is there something you can't just walk in and buy at a gunshop without a C&R license??

brad cook

Okiecruffler
February 6, 2005, 10:45 AM
With a C&R you "should" be able to walk into a gunshop, pick up a C&R eligible weapon and buy it with out background check or yellow form. It doesn't always work out that way.

Dmack_901
February 6, 2005, 10:53 AM
Can you imagine in the future when guns like AR's, Glocks and the like will be able to be shipped door to door?

That is so cool.
Sorry, but that will never happen. By that time we will have gun laws like Australia, and those will be illegal.

carp killer
February 6, 2005, 11:05 AM
When did Colt start making AR's for the public? That date plus 50 = ? :evil:

Diggler
February 6, 2005, 12:07 PM
Sorry, but that will never happen. By that time we will have gun laws like Australia, and those will be illegal.
Early AR's aren't that far off to being C&R.

artherd
February 6, 2005, 12:33 PM
When did Colt start making AR's for the public? That date plus 50 = ?

We're close.

Now, what about a newer colt (say an origional SP1) that's part of a limited eddition that 'derives part of it's value from..." :)

Steelcore
February 6, 2005, 02:52 PM
SP1 were introduced to the public in 1964.Only 9 years til the first ARs become C&R. 8-)

USP45usp
February 6, 2005, 07:00 PM
I got the same newsletter, but there are a few things that it doesn't mention and I've spoke with the ATF about:

Detachable mags. Right now there is only one rifle that I know about that has been given the okay by the atf to be for sale. The government doesn't want you to have a battle rifle that has detachable mags.

SKS's are on the list but Norinco's aren't, even the ones that were made 50 years ago. They don't even list serial numbers to the effect that they do with others on the list.

Not all guns that are over 50 years old are on the list. You have to be careful on that one because the rifle or handgun may be over 50 years old but if it's not on the approved list, then it's considered a modern arm. Catch .22 so to speak.

Like the old saying goes, if the nanny government gives you permission then you can do but don't try to find the gray areas because they will kill you for it :).

Wayne

Zundfolge
February 6, 2005, 07:05 PM
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monitary value from the fact that they are novel; bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event [See 27 CFR 478.11 for information on the requisite criteria ATF considers in rendering determinations under this subsection].

Interesting ... so what we need is for someone famous to start buying firearms, having their photo taken with them and we could see brand new guns on the C&R list :p

So shouldn't things like Mateba Auto-revolvers be C&R because they are "novel" or "bizarre"?

macavada
February 6, 2005, 07:10 PM
Anybody ever submit a request for a determination based on the criteria described in (c)?

Diggler
February 6, 2005, 09:04 PM
From what I understand, they don't have to be 'on the list' if they are over 50 years old.

USP45usp
February 6, 2005, 09:24 PM
Diggler,

True, but, most FFL01's won't sell under the C&R unless it is on the list. Too many 'gray' areas for them to risk their license. I've run into this to where they won't sell without NICS if it's not in print.

It's 2005. Anything made prior to 1955 should be sold as C&R, but are they, no. Many here have guns that were made prior to 1955 but they are not on the list due to they are still in production today. The government doesn't wish to make it easy on us to buy, they just throw us a piece of paper at $30 every three years to make us happy (yet the GCA still stands for short rifles, shotguns and machine guns).

Wayne

dev_null
February 6, 2005, 10:13 PM
Darn, that reminds me: I need to remember to re-up my C&R. If I can remember when and how... :uhoh:

- 0 -

racenutz
February 7, 2005, 01:26 AM
Detachable mags. Right now there is only one rifle that I know about that has been given the okay by the atf to be for sale. The government doesn't want you to have a battle rifle that has detachable mags.

Accounding the the ATF's list there are several
Czechoslovakian, model 1952 and 1952/57, 7.62 x 45mm and 7.62 x 39mm cal., semiautomatic rifles.
Egyptian Raschid, semiautomatic rifle, cal. 7.62 x 39mm, original Egyptian military production.
Egyptian, Hakim (Ljungman) 7.92mm semiautomatic rifle as mfd. in Egypt.
Fabrique Nationale, model SAFN49 semiautomatic rifles, any caliber.
FN F.A.L. G and GL series, semiautomatic rifles, imported by Browning Arms Company, Arnold, MO from 1959 to 1963
French Military Rifle Model 1949/56, in 7.62 x 51mm (NATO) cal. French, model 1949, cal. 7.5mm, semiauto. rifle (Fusil Mle. 1949 (MAS) 7.5mm).
Russian (U.S.S.R.), Tokarev, semiautomatic rifle, model 1940 (SVT40), cal. 7.62 x 54R, of Soviet manufacture.
Russian (U.S.S.R.), Dragunov, semiautomatic rifle, model SVD, cal. 7.62 x 54R, of Soviet manufacture, Soviet military issue only.
U.S., Rifle, cal. .30 M1, original military issue only, produced prior to 1956.

artherd
February 7, 2005, 02:42 AM
True, but, most FFL01's won't sell under the C&R unless it is on the list. Too many 'gray' areas for them to risk their license. I've run into this to where they won't sell without NICS if it's not in print.

It's 2005. Anything made prior to 1955 should be sold as C&R, but are they, no.

The actions of some spineless dealers are of no reference or consequence to the law or to me.

Red Tornado
February 7, 2005, 10:50 AM
So, can I go across the border (to Arkansas) and purchase a C&R pistol when my license comes in?

I'm in Missouri, but very close to Arkansas, and all the gun shops are there, but I can't buy handguns in Arkansas. So....can I buy C&R handguns in another state?
RT

kfranz
February 7, 2005, 11:19 AM
yet the GCA still stands for short rifles, shotguns and machine guns

Both apply. You have to jump through the NFA hoops to get a C&R NFA item, but once you've got the stamp it can be sent direct to you.

carpettbaggerr
February 7, 2005, 11:38 AM
Is there something you can't just walk in and buy at a gunshop without a C&R license?? C&R handguns in another state.

Trebor
February 7, 2005, 12:44 PM
Not all guns that are over 50 years old are on the list. You have to be careful on that one because the rifle or handgun may be over 50 years old but if it's not on the approved list, then it's considered a modern arm. Catch .22 so to speak.

Wrong. Here it is, in writing, from the ATF itself:

To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

This shows that firearms 50+ years old are NOT considered modern arms, even if they are not specifically on the C&R list. Now, if some dealers don't understand that, that's a problem with those dealers, not the ATF.

(The cut-off date progresses every year. Do you honestly expect the ATF to update the list every year)

Trebor
February 7, 2005, 12:46 PM
Btw, some early Colt AR-15's/M-16's are on the C&R list now, because of their rarity, even though they are not yet 50 years old. Same goes for original Armalite AR-18 rifles. (Yes, even the full auto ones)

Okiecruffler
February 7, 2005, 12:51 PM
The actual law doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the dealer doesn't want to honor the licence, it's his call. Be careful buying handguns, state law trumps fed law alot of the time and if someone sends you something you shouldn't have it's your arse on the line.

tulsamal
February 7, 2005, 02:05 PM
It's 2005. Anything made prior to 1955 should be sold as C&R, but are they, no. Many here have guns that were made prior to 1955 but they are not on the list due to they are still in production today. The government doesn't wish to make it easy on us to buy, they just throw us a piece of paper at $30 every three years to make us happy (yet the GCA still stands for short rifles, shotguns and machine guns).

That's just not right. Any gun that was made > 50 years ago is _by definition_ C&R. Now I think people get confused because they think of "models" rather than individual guns. Just because S&W was making a particular model of revolver fifty years ago doesn't mean the particular one you see on gunbroker.com is actually C&R. In order to prove it, you will have to have a serial number list. That can cause problems with things like Chinese SKS's because who knows which rifle was produced when? You have to KNOW when that particular gun was produced UNLESS the model is on the list.

So the "best C&R guns" are the models which went out of production more than 50 years ago. Then we know for sure that every one of them is C&R without any kind of serial number list. That can help with Smiths since we know the "pre-27's" were made before 1955.

Not knowing for sure when a particular gun was made is usually the biggest problem with actually using a C&R with a "modernish" gun. But I have certainly used the heck out of mine in the last 4-5 years!

Gregg

DMK
February 7, 2005, 09:24 PM
Just because S&W was making a particular model of revolver fifty years ago doesn't mean the particular one you see on gunbroker.com is actually C&R. In order to prove it, you will have to have a serial number list.... So the "best C&R guns" are the models which went out of production more than 50 years ago. Then we know for sure that every one of them is C&R without any kind of serial number list. That can help with Smiths since we know the "pre-27's" were made before 1955.


Good point. You'd have to have some kind of documentation to show when that gun was made unless it's either commn knowledge (can't depend on that very much in the firearms world) or if the date is stamped on it somewhere.


Now if the dealer is ignorant of the law, then all bets are off. But that doesn't make it illegal. It just means the dealer doesn't know the law. Of course, he does get the same two books of state and federal gun laws that I get every year and could look it up if he gave a hoot.

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