[Stinkyshoe]

I noticed there are two different barrel lengths. The 20" and the 26". How is the long range capability of the 308 going to be affected by the 6 inch difference? What is the general quality and expected accuracy from this rifle?
Could the PSS with a 20" be an 800 yard rifle?
Thanks
Ss

[Gordon]

Get the 20" and it is a 800yard gun ! You only gain about 100fps in going 20" to 26" in a .308win. If it was 30-06 or .300 mag I'd say 26" and a 1000 yard gun! :)

[artherd]

Could the PSS with a 20" be an 800 yard rifle?

With the right load, yes. Most definately.

[Stinkyshoe]

Thanks for the comments. So you are saying there is no difference in the stability of the bullet between a 20 and a 26inch? How would one work up the right load for 800 yards(is that a matter having enough velocity to make it, or having a very accurate load?)

Is the Remington PSS Tac going to be good right out of the box, or do you think it will require gunsmithing?

Any recommendations on a scope that would complement the rifle well? What about mounts?

Thanks much
Ss

[Gewehr98]

How does this work:

You only gain about 100fps in going 20" to 26" in a .308win.
:scrutiny:

[Gordon]

Who said the standard loss is 50 fps per inch in a .308 going from 20-26" ? Below 20" I think it is, but going ABOVE 20" the powder is pretty much played, as it was designed to be. I think 30 fps per inch , decreasing as you get longer is about right. Notice I said a different game for 30-06 and mags!
Start with the 168 grain match bullets which are the best up to 600 yards (or more) , a specialty long range .308 win load usually involves 190 grain ,atch bullets!

[ocabj]

Get the 20" and it is a 800yard gun ! You only gain about 100fps in going 20" to 26" in a .308win. If it was 30-06 or .300 mag I'd say 26" and a 1000 yard gun!

The difference in muzzle velocity between varying lengths of barrels is hard to judge. Frankly, I feel it's the quality of the barrel that plays more of a role than the actual length of the barrel. Look at the GAP "Rock" rifle. It was built on a Rock 5R barrel with a 22" length (http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/TheRock.asp). It shoots factory 175s at 2650fps, which is a little better than the published ballistics by Federal and Black Hills for their 175 factory ammunition out of a 24" test barrel.

That said, a .308 with a 20" barrel should be fine up to the range where the bullet loses supersonic speed. Assuming a 2550fps muzzle velocity from the 20" barrel, it will probably stay stable until 900 depending on the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. I'm sure if you used 175gr Sierra MatchKings, the LTR could go to 1000. It's possible to load the 175s pretty hot before you get pressure signs such that you could break 2600fps out of the factory LTR 20" barrel.

[gaven]

I have one with the 26 inch barrel, right out of the box with 168gr. sierra b.t.h.p. and 46.5 gr.of varget it will shoot one ragged hole at 100yd.and a 1inch group at 200yd. That was the first load i tried , I havent even tried
another load in it cant say about the 20inch barrels.

[Stinkyshoe]

Gaven
Wow thats some very good shooting. What kind of optic did you use?

Does anyone know if side by side there would be a darn bit of difference between the 20 and 26. I mean, why go to the trouble to make a 26" if it offers no advantage over the 20". There must be a difference in there some where.

I guy I know who is a gold metal state games benchrest shooter said that he had his 26 inch target 308 cut to 20. He said it increased accuracy because of better harmonics. I suppose out to 300 yards, the 20 and 26 will be virtually the same. But what about and 800 yards? Am i just having a spell of wishful thinking, hoping that a (1) 20" barrel (2) 308 Win. is going to work be on target and that distance(assuming no shooter error). Out of the box, how is a Rem. 700 Police TM going to perform? What is the difference between the TM and PSS?

Who has the best price on the 20" Rem. 700. Sniper TM or Pss?

How does one find the drop for a handload and use the clicks on target turrets to compensate for wind and drop?

Thanks Again,
Ss

[taliv]

i think you guys are off base a bit. what would make the difference in a 600 or 800 or 1000yrd gun is the TWIST RATE of the barrel, not the length. if you're going to stabilize the 190 grain sierra bullets, you need a faster twist than you do with the 168 or 175 grain bullets.

[700ltr]

I own a remington model 700 ltr.in 308.I purchased it about a year ago and put about 300 rounds through it last summer.It's an absolute joy to shoot.I have a leupold 6-18 scope on it.I shoot off of bipods at the shilloette range out to 500 meters.It handles the 168 gr. the best.At 100 yrds it will hold half inch groups consistently.I'm impressed with how this gun shoots!!Off sandbags we were shooting clay pidgeons at 500 meters which showed to me how accurate this gun really is.Maybe I just got luckey with this particular gun,But I wouldn't hessitate on buying another

[QuickDraw]

What about mounts?
I went with Badger Ordnance,about $300.00
for mount and rings.

QuickDraw

[Gewehr98]

what would make the difference in a 600 or 800 or 1000yrd gun is the TWIST RATE of the barrel, not the length.

A fast twist rate for heavy bullets doesn't mean anything if you can't keep that heavy bullet supersonic through the intended range of the target. Per the old Greenhill formula, fast twist heavy bullets have a minimum muzzle velocity just to stay stable out the starting gate. Anything less, and they'll tumble - I've done it with long 6.5mm and .30 caliber bullets during load development.

That says something for not removing powder burn time via a short barrel, because a .308 Winchester is a marginally effective 1000 yard cartridge to begin with. Long-range .308 Winchester shooters usually rely on 175gr and heavier match bullets, with hotter loads, to stay stable out that far. Those same hot loads would love to make use of the extra 4-6" of barrel burn time for that 2600fps floor.

(You should see how hot they drive those 155gr Palma bullets for 1000 yard competition!)

[ocabj]

I have one with the 26 inch barrel, right out of the box with 168gr. sierra b.t.h.p. and 46.5 gr.of varget it will shoot one ragged hole at 100yd.and a 1inch group at 200yd. That was the first load i tried , I havent even tried

You need to be careful when telling people what load you use if you are using data that exceeds recommended maximum loads by the manufacturer. Hodgdon max load for Varget behind a 168gr Sierra Match King is 46.0gr.

[Stinkyshoe]

How do you select the mounts with the proper height? Does it matter?

How do you get the rifle sighted in so you have enough MOA adjustment to go in close and out to a ways away?

[Stinkyshoe]

Which mounts? How to get adjustment either way?

Thanks
Ss

[QuickDraw]

I need to correct my previous post.
I paid around $160.00 for the Badger Ordnance
mounts,not $300.00.
Sorry for any confusion.

QuickDraw

[QuickDraw]

I'm no expert but, the heighth of the mounts depends
on the size of scope.If you have a 50mm objective,
you will need a "taller" mount.Otherwise the scope
will contact the barrel.
You can get the base that is made for those distant shots.
I don't know all the proper terminology,I'm still
learning too. :)

QuickDraw

[Bullet]

QUOTE "How does one find the drop for a handload and use the clicks on target turrets to compensate for wind and drop?"

To find bullet drop for any load you need to shoot your load thru a cronograph to get bullet speed (FPS). Then look in a loading manual for the ballistic data for your bullet and FPS. It will show you bullet drop for your load at different zeros or different ranges.

To use your target knobs just turn them in the direction you want your bullet to move. Your target knobs should be marked for up-down & left- right. Most scopes - scope adjustments are 1/4 minute (1/4 inch) at 100 yards for one click. At longer ranges you multiply 1/4 for every 100 yards you are shooting. For example at 300 yards you mutiply 1/4 X 3 = 3/4inch (.75). At 300 yards each click on your target knobs moves your bullet 3/4 of an inch on target. To compensate for wind you need to know how far the wind is blowing your bullet. Then make the adjustment on your scope the proper number of clicks for that distance. Reading the wind is alot harder than elevation because the wind changes speed and direction gravity doesn't. Hope this helps.

[Quintin Likely]

I'd want the longest barrel I could stand, especially if it's gonna be something for punching paper at distance. I never really saw the sense in a 20" barrelled .308 personally.

[Mike Hull]

I never really saw the sense in a 20" barrelled .308 personally.


They(700P-LTR) work great for the LEO sniper, who's shots generally don't exceed 200 yards, though it is capable of much, much more. Another plus is the smaller signature, which is great for a LEO sniper who is generally much closer to his target than his military counterpart.

It's also a much more comfortable rifle to haul around, and the stock is much preferred by many over the more cumbersome 700P stock which also has a much larger wrist(grip) area.

Don't underestimate the 700P-LTR, it will get right out there with the regular 700P for most shooting, as long as it has the proper loads.
http://home.comcast.net/~davidawilson/LongRange/LR_Frame.htm


Edited to add; Here's a place that generally has the best price on these rifles.
http://www.sportingarms.com/

http://www.sportingarms.com/results.asp?mfr_name=28&category_descr=5&subcategory_descr=0&max_price=&keyword_descr=&B1=Submit&page_no=1


Look for 700P, or 700P-LTR. Remington hasn't called them the PSS for years.

[Quintin Likely]

An LEO sniper is a relatively niche market though. For the average joe blow shooting off a bench or bags toting this thing from his car to the firing line, I say go with the longer tube.

[Rockstar]

How about some actual chrony info, instead of guesses, regarding the difference in velocities of the 20" and 26" barrels?

[dakotasin]

i know the 8 mauser is a different animal, but i think the concept still applies. i took a mauser 98/22 w/ a 29" barrel and chronied it. then i took 5" off the barrel (same barrel, same ammo lot #'s) and chronied it again. i lost 17 f/s. then i took 5 more inches off (down to 19") and chronied it again (same barrel, same lot #'s), and lost an additional 80-some f/s.

the point of all that is that the 50 f/s per inch that gets bandied about so much isn't necessarily a hard and fast rule. the 308 case is very efficient (note how little it gains by being ackleyed), and while i don't wish to cut up my 26" heavy barrelled 308, i would imagine that very little would be lost going from 26" down to 20. however... it is my 1000 yard gun, and the 308 can use every little bit of assistance it can get to reach 1000 yards. thus, i went 26", and for a target/range gun, i'd reccomend that barrel length. while the 20" will be stiffer, and theoretically more accurate, that mauser i cut up didn't bear that out. from 29" to 24, i cut group sizes in half. from 24 to 19, i gained very little...

and so it is: each rifle is a law unto itself.

[JNewell]

I say go with the longer tube

Why? You get a modest increase in velocity, which only affects trajectory very modestly until you get to very significant ranges.

[Quintin Likely]

Better to have and not need than need and not have, I suppose. I doubt this rifle will be something that's gonna be deployed in an urban/law enforcement sniper type situation, where yes, a shorter barrelled rifle will be something easier to deploy, so why have the shorter barrel? So it's easier to manuever in and out of a smaller car on the way to the firing line? ;)

[Zak Smith]

168gr Federal shoots 2700fps from my 24" and 2575fps from my 19.5".
155gr Lapua shoots 2830fps from my 24" and 2680fps from my 19.5".

[Gewehr98]

Jnewell, there's your "modest" increase, and Zak is showing the difference between a 19.5" and 24" tube, not 19.5" and 26". So I'll wager there's at least a 200fps difference between the 20" LTR and 26" PSS. That difference would definitely show up on the trajectory charts, and the location where the bullet drops to subsonic velocity.

[Rockstar]

Thanks, Zak! I'd also make a "wild" guess that the velocity difference between the 20" and 26" barrel will be AT LEAST 200 f.p.s. Now whether 200 f.p.s. at the muzzle makes any significant difference in accuracy @ 800 yds., I'll leave to those of you who shoot @ 800 yds. :)

[Zak Smith]

Practical accuracy involves the accuracy of the rifle, ammunition, conditions, and most importantly the shooter. I'll focus on three aspects of long range accuracy which I think apply most to this discussion:

1. As the distances get longer, the ability to accurately estimate wind drift over the bullet's flight becomes increasingly important (ie, downrange it's not necessarily what it is where you are). Wind drift is going to be proportional to the bullet's BC and the time of flight.

2. As distances get longer, small deviations in muzzle velocity manifest as larger deviations in impact elevation.

3. If you are shooting at unknown distances, range estimation error will manifest as impact elevation error as distances get longer. E.g. if you are off by 35 yards, a faster-falling bullet (ie, inches drop per additional yard at 800 yards) may miss the target when a flatter trajectory would allow a hit.

All of these effects get worse with lower muzzle velocities and/or lower ballistic coefficients (BCs) of the bullets.

Here is a comparison of some factory load data from those two 19.5/20" and 24" barrels, and how it will translate into downrange drop, drop rate, wind drift, and velocity. I know that handloads can improve the velocity of these loads, like a 175 @ 2700 instead of 2650, but using factory data will level out the field.

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 | YARDS
24 175SMK 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 1.86 7.74 15.37 25.03 37.34 | drop (moa)
20 175SMK 0.51* 2525 > -0.00 2.14 8.71 17.23 28.06 41.85 | drop (moa)
24 168SMK 0.46* 2700 > -0.00 1.79 7.61 15.41 25.69 39.38 | drop (moa)
20 168SMK 0.46* 2575 > -0.00 2.07 8.59 17.36 28.98 44.41 | drop (moa)
24 155LAP 0.508 2830 > -0.00 1.51 6.52 13.01 21.12 31.32 | drop (moa)
20 155LAP 0.508 2680 > -0.00 1.79 7.47 14.81 24.03 35.64 | drop (moa)

24 175SMK 0.51* 2650 > 0.04 -0.07 -0.22 -0.43 -0.72 -1.12 | drop per yard (inches)
20 175SMK 0.51* 2525 > 0.05 -0.08 -0.25 -0.48 -0.80 -1.25 | drop per yard (inches)
24 168SMK 0.46* 2700 > 0.04 -0.07 -0.22 -0.44 -0.76 -1.23 | drop per yard (inches)
20 168SMK 0.46* 2575 > 0.05 -0.08 -0.25 -0.50 -0.86 -1.39 | drop per yard (inches)
24 155LAP 0.508 2830 > 0.04 -0.06 -0.19 -0.36 -0.60 -0.93 | drop per yard (inches)
20 155LAP 0.508 2680 > 0.04 -0.07 -0.21 -0.41 -0.68 -1.05 | drop per yard (inches)

24 175SMK 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 1.38 2.96 4.79 6.93 9.37 | wind (moa)
20 175SMK 0.51* 2525 > 0.00 1.48 3.18 5.17 7.46 10.03 | wind (moa)
24 168SMK 0.46* 2700 > 0.00 1.47 3.22 5.35 7.92 10.87 | wind (moa)
20 168SMK 0.46* 2575 > 0.00 1.61 3.52 5.84 8.62 11.70 | wind (moa)
24 155LAP 0.508 2830 > 0.00 1.22 2.61 4.21 6.06 8.17 | wind (moa)
20 155LAP 0.508 2680 > 0.00 1.32 2.83 4.57 6.58 8.86 | wind (moa)

24 175SMK 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2305 1986 1694 1435 1225 | velocity (fps)
20 175SMK 0.51* 2525 > 2525 2189 1880 1598 1354 1166 | velocity (fps)
24 168SMK 0.46* 2700 > 2700 2318 1957 1625 1335 1124 | velocity (fps)
20 168SMK 0.46* 2575 > 2575 2200 1845 1525 1257 1076 | velocity (fps)
24 155LAP 0.508 2830 > 2830 2479 2154 1855 1586 1355 | velocity (fps)
20 155LAP 0.508 2680 > 2680 2340 2026 1738 1484 1272 | velocity (fps)

[Zak Smith]

My advice is to get the 24 or 26" barrel if you plan this to be a medium to long range rifle. The extra inches of barrel steel don't weigh very much and it won't hinder your movement, but you will get tangible benefits in the trajectory.

If you want to shoot a lot of very small 1/4 - 1" targets at 150 yards and less, like a police sniper, you won't lose anything in a 18-20" barrel. At the sniper match I shot last weekend in SLC, several of the SWAT guys had 16-20" barrels, but their average engagement distance is very short.

[JNewell]

Zak, it definitely shows up in the numbers, but not at any range of interest to me here in the east. If I lived out west, I would probably feel differently. This is one of those cases where you need to evaluate the task first, then make appropriate hardware choices.

[Zak Smith]

Like I said, if you won't be shoot to long ranges, then you don't lose much with the shorter barrel. Also remember you can always cut it down, but not lengthen it.

[YodaVader]

I bought a 26" 700P last year and could not be more pleased. It was not as expensive as the LTR and I actually like the heavier rifle for shooting the .308. Later , I almost bought an LTR in .223.

Shot the group in the attachment after only 20 - 25 rounds through the rifle. Shows potential for very good accuracy. A few weeks ago shot a group that was tighter still. I have a Leupold 6.5 - 20 , Leupold mounts ,Burris Signature rings and a Jewell trigger.