(AZ) Schools punish for self defense


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Drizzt
March 7, 2003, 10:08 AM
Schools punish for self defense

By Aimee Staten, Assistant Editor

The old-fashioned concept of ridding oneself of antagonizers with a show of force -- whether verbal or physical -- no longer flies in most local school districts these days.

In fact, the days when parents could advise their child, who may have complained of threats and harassment while on school property, to punch the other kid in the nose in the name of self defense, are over. If not, that student could find himself, whether wrongly or rightly, in the same boat with the antagonizer.

In the case of Safford High and Middle School, that would be suspension for five days for a first offense, and nine days for a second offense. Thatcher schools exact similar consequences for fighting; The first offense means parents are contacted, the second offense is a short suspension. Thatcher's policy handbook differentiates between fighting and physical assault. With physical assault, the first offense is punished with a short suspension and the second minimum consequence is a long suspension or expulsion.

Dr. Mark Tregaskes, Safford schools superintendent, said that policy was set in place to protect students from being seriously injured. "Our objective is to keep kids from fighting," he said. "If there is any way a student can go for help, that's what we expect them to do." The principals of the individual schools make the determination after hearing both sides of the stories from the students involved in the fight, then bring in witnesses if it is deemed necessary.

Tom and Brenda Blake, parents of 9th grader Elias, feel their son was unjustly punished for defending himself against a person they called a school bully, which resulted in both boys being suspended for five days before and over the Christmas holidays. They also feel his right to due process was violated because he was not allowed to bring in his own witnesses. ". . . It is common practice under the so-called zero tolerance practice arbitrarily administered without justice and supposedly without bias in the Safford school system," they wrote in a letter to the editor two weeks ago.

Both parents attested that their son was not one to pick or engage in a fight for the sake of fighting. "I don't think he's a hot head," Brenda said. "I don't think he's ever been in a fight, that I know of."

To make sure their memories were serving them, they talked to the principal and checked his school records at Triumphant Learning Center, where he attended from the 5th to 8th grade before he was enrolled with the Safford School District. There were no records of fights, according to both parents.

Tom said his son was in the Safford High School Library during lunch Dec. 16 when another junior student approached him and started harassing him. He said witnesses say the librarian asked the boy to leave, but he returned and pushed Elias.

"Elias asked him what his problem was and the boy pushed him into the couch," Tom said. He said his son was walking away from the boy when he was punched in the back of the head by the other boy's fist.

When a senior who was in the library at the time of the fight moved to separate the boys, they were both on the couch wrestling and throwing punches. The only notable injury was to the couch, which was broken during the boys' wrestling match.

"Since he didn't suffer an injury or any permanent damage, they said he wasn't a victim," Tom said, rolling his eyes. "So now if anybody picks on him from now until graduation, he'll be suspended for nine days."

Elias also missed three weeks of basketball practice and seven games during his suspension, during which he was not allowed on the school property for any reason.

According to Tregaskes, the school district does not have a zero tolerance policy, but has a policy that rates the infractions according the degree of seriousness and punishes accordingly. He said the nine-day suspension would not depend on whether the boy was picked on during the remainder of his time in Safford schools, but how he chose to respond to being picked on.

"Things are different these days," he said. "It's a tough call for parents. We have our kids come home and say, so and so keeps bothering me. Then we say, I guess you should just sock him in the nose and be done with it."

That was the way things were done years ago, he said. "But now, with the culture we live in, if one kid hits the student and he hits back, then another pulls out a knife.

"What would have been a bloody nose and a black eye back then could turn out to be so much more than that," Tregaskes said.

The Blakes said they were proud of their son for sticking up for himself. As they wrote in their letter to the editor, they feel their son epitomizes this country's strength and refusal to back down from bullies or "terrorists."

"Terrorists (bullies) we're sure are delighted to hear that our schools are teaching the rising generation to give in to those who seek to take away their rights," they wrote.

Elias said, "As it stands now, they are teaching us to lie down to bullies/terrorists, instead of sticking up for ourselves. In the world outside school self-defense is not a crime."

While the Blakes declined to comment on further action they plan to take on the matter, they said they have not let it drop and would like to encourage other parents to bring their complaints on the discipline policy to Tregaskes and write a letter to the editor.

Tregaskes encouraged parents to call the principals of the schools their children attend to find out when all policies will be reviewed for the next school year. "The principals hold a meeting every year to renew policies and find out if there are concerns with current policies," he said. That is when policies can be amended to better reflect the desires of concerned parents.

http://eacourier.com/display/inn_news/news01.txt

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Gray Peterson
March 7, 2003, 10:21 AM
This is new news to everyone? Our schools are miniature versions of Great Britian.

mrsMTN
March 7, 2003, 10:28 AM
From what I have seen, the schools are teaching no reality whatsoever. When kids graduate, the real world is a complete culture shock: they can and do fail at things; there are few, if any, do-overs; all of the cotton batting falls off. I actually feel sorry for them.

4v50 Gary
March 7, 2003, 11:24 AM
Don't think due process applies but there is a fundamental right to education and issue may be raised that the unjustified suspension is a violation of that fundamental right. While the school's policy is well intended, its administration requires more oversight and I would remand for reconsideration.

benewton
March 7, 2003, 01:23 PM
There is, of course, a citation from the Constitution which supports the

"fundamental right to education"

comment?

rebbryan
March 7, 2003, 02:44 PM
i graduated from hs 3 years ago and this was pretty much the policy at our school. if someone were to fight me i'm not gonna sit there and take it just so i don't get suspended. i really think what gary said could be used in court. just because you're at school doesn't mean you loose your due process rights. if i were expelled for some reason for fighting and witnesses corroborated that i didn't start it i'd take it to court

geekWithA.45
March 7, 2003, 03:02 PM
Under normal circumstances, I'd leave schools a little bit of leeway, due to kids commonly not having a firm grasp on initiation of force, de escalation, and so on.

We all remember some kids goading others to hit first, so they could then "defend themselves" by beating the snot out of the other.

HOWEVER,

All this zero tolerance nonsense has become a blanket excuse for schools to let themselves off the hook for their responsibility to show justice, judgement and discretion.

It sickens me.

Pilgrim
March 7, 2003, 03:09 PM
Nothing new. This was the same policy in the Los Angeles City Schools when I was growing up in the fifties and sixties. It was successfully countered by the mother of my classmate, whose father was a Air Force pilot and who was killed in the Berlin Airlift.

Bob, my classmate, was a bookish sort and a natural target for bullies. One day Bob fought back and did a good job on his tormenter. The school suspended Bob and the bully for fighting. Bob's mother was a nurse in the school system and turned her attorney loose on the principal. Bob was reinstated without penalty or record of suspension.

The suspend all players policy is the tool of lazy administrators who aren't interested in justice, just peace and tranquility.

Bruce

tommytrauma
March 7, 2003, 03:19 PM
I posted this on another board a month or so ago. Some of the responses were amazing.

I had to go pick up my daughter at school this morning. Seems that an older, male student decided to amuse himself by grabbing my daughter’s book bag and pushing her. She bloodied his nose, and overall thumped him pretty good. A teacher stood witness to the whole event, and was dismayed by my daughter’s “terribly violent reaction”. She seemed especially upset because Dana evidently kept shouting “get your guard up! Get your guard up!” as she thumped on this kid. The Principal (beard wearing, pipe smoking, Volvo driving social worker type) and I exchanged some words regarding his belief that “violence never settles anything”, and my belief that the only reason he is able to say that is because other man stand ready to do violence on his behalf. Evidently, I am a horrible, terrible man for teaching my kids to stand up for themselves. Dana’s been suspended for today and Monday.

Will we see any warriors out of the next generation? It appears to me that they’re being indoctrinated to be docile little victims.

Carlos
March 7, 2003, 05:01 PM
I miss the old days, when men were men .... :( This world we live in makes me wanna :barf:

Oh, and good for Dana.

Betty
March 7, 2003, 05:20 PM
Back when I was in middle school in the People's Republic of New Jersey.....

I was suspended for three days for defending myself against the school bus bully. I was small and skinny and the big 'ol boy knocked my glasses clean off my face. What he didn't realize was that I was used to getting into fist fights with my older brother, and I wasn't going to sit there and cower. I can say it wasn't me who went crying into the principal's office that day. :p

We were both suspended because "fighting was baaaad no matter what the circumstances." :rolleyes:

Skunkabilly
March 7, 2003, 05:27 PM
I grew up as a pacifist--I didn't want trouble from the school; if you were absent 7 or 10 days (I forget) no matter what the circumstances, you fail the course.

I thought it was better to be picked on than have to retake a class. Got picked on a LOT.

The Plainsman
March 7, 2003, 06:16 PM
Some years ago, when I was still a stalwart member of the local board of education, we had a boy in our H.S. physically attacked by another larger boy (who had made several previous threats to the smaller boy, including one to stab him). The attacker actually climbed over the back of the other boy as he was putting books in his locker. The entire episode was witnessed by two teachers, one male (Vietnam Vet) and one female, both of whom helped break up the ensuing fight. The smaller boy apparently gave as good as he got.

Later, in the principal's office, while a local LEO was writing a report on the incident, the principal commented that both boys would be suspended five days for fighting. The cop looked up from his clipboard and asked if this was "justice" at our high school - to give the victim the same punishment as the perp? If so, he stated that he was glad he hadn't gone to this school.

After a short discussion among board members, the victim's suspension was withdrawn.

Some school administrators - :fire:

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