[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Saw a news blurb this morning that showed the new toys that are planned for use in Iraq, if we should go in. Among thse was a Barrett rifle.

What role would a Barrett play in ground fighting? Blowing up refineries? :neener:

Thanx,
- pdmoderator

[Kharn]

Disposal of ordanance, such as mines and unexploded artillery shells, and probably causing bad migranes amoung Iraqi officers dumb enough to open their tank hatches and take a peek when parked.

Kharn

[foghornl]

Well, if you beleive Tom Diaz and the VPC...

Sniping from 4 miles away.
Shooting satellites from the sky.
Taking down commercial airliners.
Destroying police cars from 2 miles.
Blowing up armored money cars.


///smarmy wise-guy mode off

In reality, probably for soft [personell] to medium targets [light APC's, etc] at a goodly distance [1,500+ Yds].

Hey, whatever our guys need over there, give them the best we can make. If that includes Mr. Barretts products, so much the better.

Hmmmmm..... maybe that was the LAPD's rifle that the LA "City Fathers" all handeled a while back......:evil:

[Rob96]

It's an anti-materiel weapon.;) Aim at the backpack.:D

[dude]

it actually is for taking out/disabeling radars, commo gear, 'parked' aircraft, vehicles & stuff............and also works quite well on people

[TaurusGL]

Snipers in vietnam could hit targets from a mile away, they used a .50 machine gun caseing necked down to a 7mm(prolly a special one). My dad talked to two snipers at Doung Wan with this set up and said the best shoot was almost 2 miles (clean head shot), the thing they were worried about was someone walking in front of the target because it takes so long to get there.

[gun-fucious]

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/barrett/barrett.htm


The Barrett "Light Fifty" Model 82A1 is the most popular 0.50 caliber rifle in the world. The weapon was originally designed for extreme long range sniping (over 1000 meters). However, its semi auto mechanism combined with mediocre human engineering and the lack of proper 0.50 match grade ammunition contributed to the fact that the M82A1 is more suited for a anti material shooting rather then a for surgical anti personnel one.

Therefore, the weapon's destination was switch from sniping to Hard Target Interdiction (HTI), hence shooting at Armored Personal Carrier (APC), cars, through walls, etc as well as for Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) work.

Sporadic samples of the rifle entered service in the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) in the early 1990's and were used primarily by the IDF Combat Engineering Corps EOD unit - YACHSAP - to blow up charges at a safe distance. In 1995-1996 the M82A1 entered the IDF Special Forces (SF) in mass numbers for HTI applications. In 1997, in an effort to improve the poor marksmanship skills and sharpshooting capability of the IDF Infantry Corps, the weapon entered all regular infantry-oriented units as a company level fire support weapon.

[Navy joe]

Snipers in vietnam could hit targets from a mile away, they used a .50 machine gun caseing necked down to a 7mm(prolly a special one). My dad talked to two snipers at Doung Wan with this set up and said the best shoot was almost 2 miles (clean head shot), the thing they were worried about was someone walking in front of the target because it takes so long to get there.

You have nothing if not an active imagination. Or maybe you just don't know any different. Necked down to 7mm? Ok, where is the advantage in that? Assuming you could build a gun to deal with the pressures involved, it would have an accurate life you could count on one hand due to throat erosion.

Longest aimed VN shot was by Hathcock using his Unertl rifle scope mounted on a standard M-2 machine gun. It was not a clean head shot, and I think it was something like 2,300 yds, need to check my book. He also took a 1200 yd shot on a VC getting a haircut, with .308 that was high and instead hit the female giving the haircut in the throat.

Basically, the whole other fairy tale you got there is just that.

[Grin&Barrett]

The manual with my 82 says it's for exploding ordinance at safe distances and opposing light armored vehicles.

The press might consider this a new "toy" but it's been issued & in use for a long time.

[SquirrelNuts]

I wonder if this was a .30 cal bullet in a sabot loaded into a .50 BMG cartridge. I see reloading supplies all the time that are for this purpose.

-SquirrelNuts

[moxie]

The Barrett .50 is used by U.S. Air Force explosive ordnance disposal units (EOD). It is used as a "long range disrupter" (LRD). The idea is to explode unexploded munitions from a safe distance. Some .50 BMGs have also been used in this role when Barretts were not available. Other services also use it in the LRD role, and may for other applications as well. The EOD people really like it.

[Navy joe]

For non-fantasy .50 use, see the recent takedown of the Korean freighter by Spanish Marines. They were using a Barrett 82A1 to re-arrange the mast cables. All sorts of handy things they can do.

"Aim at the backpack" ROFL

[Correia]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snipers in vietnam could hit targets from a mile away, they used a .50 machine gun caseing necked down to a 7mm(prolly a special one). My dad talked to two snipers at Doung Wan with this set up and said the best shoot was almost 2 miles (clean head shot), the thing they were worried about was someone walking in front of the target because it takes so long to get there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


:D :D :D

That was priceless.

[JamisJockey]

My dad talked to two snipers at Doung Wan with this set up and said the best shoot was almost 2 miles (clean head shot),

me thinks your dad is pulling your leg!
:banghead:
Carlos Hathcock had a 1200 yd kill with a standard rifle, and a 2000+ with an M2 Machine gun modified to single fire with a scope up top. There is no such beast as a .50 necked down to a 7mm.

[Poodleshooter]

I wonder if this was a .30 cal bullet in a sabot loaded into a .50 BMG cartridge. I see reloading supplies all the time that are for this purpose.
They have .50 SLAP sabotted rounds. I believe that those use .30 tungsten cored bullets. They're probably pretty hard on barrels.
What the barrel life be on a 7mm/.50BMG? Something like 3 rounds, no doubt! :p

[dude]

they don't hurt the barrel at all, as the soft sabot(s) are the only thing making contact............just like the patch in a blackpowder rifle

[Frohickey]

Snipers in vietnam could hit targets from a mile away, they used a .50 machine gun caseing necked down to a 7mm(prolly a special one).

Bwahahahaha!!! :scrutiny:

50BMG necked down to 338 is the only wildcat ever done to a 50BMG... its called the 338 Talbot. And barrel erosion was very bad, and velocity was not as expected.

[12.7x99mm]

I’m reading the book that just came out.

"The hunt for Bin Laden" Task Force Dagger ~ Robin Moore

Interesting stuff. Kinda like a must read if your into what really happened over there.

SF used barrets on a variety of targets - mainly people and vehicles in the battles around Tora Bora.

Get the book.

[Soap]

Imagine that you are standing next to a nice $20,000,000+ aircraft...then all of a sudden, five quick rounds from a Barrett and you have a really funky lookin' paperweight!

[JShirley]

Longest known aimed hit on single enemy happened a few months ago by the Canooks over in Afghanistan. Think the range was around 2300 meters, with a MacMillan.

The snipers in my company have been waiting for their M82a1 for a while, but say they won't have match ammo for it! Kinda limits the options.

[Skullboy]

The Canadian kill in Afganistan worked out to be approximately 2630 yards when converted to standard measure, with a bolt action McMillan .50cal rifle.

SKBY.

[CWL]

Definition for .50 cal rifles are for 'anti-materiel' usage.

Taking out airplanes on a field from a hidden location is cheap. $3-5 per fighter jet.

Taking out communications array is cheap.

Taking out crucial vehicles can disrupt deployment and affect outcome of battle. Vehicles can also be disabled in order to block road/bridge/tunnel.

Shooting people, while 'neat' is not primary use of .50 cal weapons.

[Gordon]

I bought mine in 87 or 88 for less than $4000. I had a Leupold mk3 10x scope mounted and gunsmith clean up trigger to crisp 4.5lbs. It is pretty much a safe queen for last 6 years, BUT it IS sighted in at 600yds so I can use 'come ups' to 1 mile. I think I could hit a person at 1000yds certainly in a couple shots after I figure lead distance! I think that it would be a great boat weapon.

[TaurusGL]

Well maybe the snipers are liars about the distance and the round may have been a 338 he said it looked to be about a 7mm. Ofcourse how may of you were stationed in Thailand during vietnam or even served in SEA while the Veitnam war was going on and voluntered.

[dude]

not me, too young


".............and said the best shot was almost 2 miles (clean head shot), the thing they were worried about was someone walking in front of the target because it takes so long to get there."


I got a bigger laugh the second time around!

Let me get this straight, the guys were getting 'clean head shots' from around 3500 yards (!) or so and they worried about someone getting in the way of the shot? Did they only shoot at sleeping targets............. or dead guys??



dude, you've been had big time as my BS-o-meter pegged right away!

[Correia]

No offense Taurus, so please take this in the spirit that it is intended.

We are not insulting you. This is a story that you were told. That is fine.

However there are people on this board who are bonafide rifle experts. We do have snipers and veterans of a whole bunch of wars. We also have people who make their living building and maintaining guns. We have people whose love is shooting rifles in high speed competitions. There are people on this board who have forgotten more about the art of the rifle than most of us will ever know.

I've known a lot of excellent riflemen, and I've had the privledge of reading tons of postings on this board and on our predecessor over the last 5 years. So I'm just going to say that what you have been told is way way off. I'm not insulting your Dad either, maybe he was lied to. It has nothing to do with having served in the Army either.

Gale McMillian used to post on www.thefiringline.com before he passed away. He was one of the leading experts on precision rifles, and a real pioneer in using the .50 as a sniper rifle. (in fact the world record confirmed kill is from a Canadian against a Taliban soldier using one of Gale's rifles). Gale once shot an old target tank at around 3000 yards (if I recall correctly) in a demonstration of one of his rifles for the King of Jordan. However Gale flat out admited that it was a total fluke, and should have been darn near impossible. And this was a TANK. Gale immediatly put the rifle away before anybody there could ask for him to do it again.

Think about the physics of what you are talking about for a second. How much adjustment would your scope need to make a hit at 2 miles? Did such a scope/rings/bases even exist in the 1970s? It doesn't matter what kind of cartridge you are firing, your drop is going to be astronomical.

I'm not saying that making hits at 2 miles is impossible. You can do it by hosing down a hillside with an M2 for example. :)

I'm not sure what the number is, but I believe that the world record group at 1000 yards is something like 5 or 6 inches. (maybe Steve Smith or Bogie could post the actual number) and this is from the best shots that have ever lived using the finest rifles ever constructed. And this is on a regular rifle range, shooting at a paper target.

So what you are saying is that using a cartridge that none of us fanatical gun nuts have ever heard of, there were snipers in Viet Nam making "clean head shots" at about 4X that distance, (so figure their rifles are about 1/160th of a MOA) on a live target in combat conditions?

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[TaurusGL]

Like I said the distance was prolly machoized but this was a special team (2) that had come through his base(I don't believe it 100% either). I was talking to my dad today and he was saying that they told him it was a 7mm but then again they might have been exagerating because a .338 is more like an 8mm. As for the targets they were stationary camp grounds,

[Diesle]

was almost 2 miles .....


How long would it take to get there?

[Art Eatman]

To add to Correia's comment: Special unit guys were (are? :) ) notorious for coming up with incredible BS about their gear and missions and performances. They will flat tear your leg off and beat you about the head and shoulders with it!

Frohickey, one other wildcat was based on the .50BMG, but IIRC it was a one-off and fired only a few times: A .22/.50, of all things! Throat erosion was, er, uh, "severe". That's it, "severe". :D It was a post-WW II effort, but I don't recall the optimist's name...

Art

[Dannyboy]

Shooting people, while 'neat' is not primary use of .50 cal weapons.

This isn't necessarily true. One of the primary roles of the M2 is to be used by the infantry in the defense. Tanks, troop carriers, or troops, who's gonna get hosed with the .50?

[natedog]

I don't quite understand: How can 4 or 5 1/2" holes knock out an aircraft/car/APC's? Ok maybe through the engine block on a car, but still, seems a little extreme. Exactly how accurate is an M82 at 100 yards?

[Watchman]

Easy to do. Take a shot at the turbine and the jet engine will eat itself up when fired up.

A shot into an engine block will kill it quickly or slowly depending on where you hit it.

My .50 can do one hole groups at 100 yards, seems kind of a waste though...:scrutiny:

A shot at a radar disk will disrupt the reflection enough that the image will be unreadable.

Several different types of ammo increase its versatility.

AP will shoot through some light armour.

API will set things on fire. Vehicles,jets, feul tanks, ordnance.

A light .50 is a good thing to have on hand.

[Kharn]

If you're within 100 yards of a hostile target, and using a .50, you'll be dead right after you pull the trigger.

Kharn

[Jake 98c/11b]

Not if you bring your friends Kharn.

Don't think the SLAP would be real hard on barrels, the sabot is a polymer and would cause less friction than ball. When the sabot discards it can adversely effect accuracy since it won't likely release in a clean and even manner. Just my guess.

The Vietnam era sniper story seems bogus (that's me being kind and understated), if they used a necked down .50 BMG it would have one hell of a muzzle velocity when compared to contemporary rounds and there would be little concern of someone walking into the bullet. In fact if there were the possibility of someone straying in front of the bullet (due to it taking so long reaching the target) head shots would not be practical, your target would likely move. Velocity is only part of the issue, bullet drift is a big factor.

I believe Skip Talbot has the record for long range .50 shooting, 3.5 inches at 1,000 yards, could be wrong. It is as much as luck at that range since so many things influence the round in flight, several layers of wind, changes in temp, humidity, etc.. Several factors come into play that can be ignored in conventional long range shooting. Read Dean Michalis's book if you want to learn about this kind of thing.

The new multipurpose rounds in use today really add to the potential of the .50, an AP core with an HEI filler sort of bridges the gap between small arms and the 20mm autocannon.

Sorry, just some random thoughts.

[SquirrelNuts]

I recall seeing an ad for a .50 rifle that claims it was used to set the record for a 5" group at 1,006 yards (odd number). I cannot remember the manufacturer though.

-SquirrelNuts

[Sven]

There was a story (searched, can't find) about a Taliban soldier in Afganistan who took shelter behind metal, thinking he was safe a few hundred yards back.

Wrong!

[Grin&Barrett]

Even when I've shot my 82 at 100 yards it is very accurate. More than enough to pinpoint vital areas on high priced machinery like a jet. Even at 500 yards no problem. :cool:

Why wait for a high priced air strike?

[dickwholliday]

if somebody wants to post it i'll send you a picture of a headshot with a 50 from the seige of qandahar......very nasty....DICK

[Drjones]

if somebody wants to post it i'll send you a picture of a headshot with a 50 from the seige of qandahar......very nasty....DICK

I'll take it!!!

Please email it!!!

evourakis@csus.edu

:D

[CB900F]

TaurusGL;
Please find a copy of "One Shot, One Kill" by Carlos Hathcock.
Read to about page 3. Post here after doing that. 900F

[hps1]

Plese show your support for our troops by signing on @ Dept. of Defense site:

http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html

To keep this on topic check out the photo below:


http://www.defendamerica.mil/photoessays/march2003/p031903a6.html

regards,
hps

[PvtPyle]

but this was a special team (2) that had come through his base

Yeah, they are called a Sniper team. One shoots, the other acts as his spotter. There is nothing special about that, just standard military docturine.


"The hunt for Bin Laden" Task Force Dagger ~ Robin Moore

Sadly this book is being widely discredited by the SF community. The guy on the cover in the middle is a jackhole named Kieth Idema. A real POS in the SF community. He is a convicted felon (58 counts of wire fraud) and is universaly despised by the SF community. He claims to have been in Hondourus/'Salvador in the late 80's which is funny since my boss was the CO of the SF unit in Salvador for about the same bit of time there and he says Idema was not there and there is no record of him there. There is a widesoread campaign in the SF community to expose this guy for the liar and crook he is. Anything he is involved with, like this book is highly suspect at this point. FWIW.

[KMKeller]

Just finished reading the book "Marine Sniper: 93 confirmed kills" last night. His longest kill was done at 2500 yards with a 50 Cal. Browning M2, no special mods other than a mount that he and his captain developed to accommodate his 10 power Unertl scope from his standard sniper rifle. The VC he sniped had the misfortune to stop and hide at the exact spot where Hathcock had sighted in his rig earlier that day. The cycle rate was slow enough on the .50 that Hathcock could squeeze of a single round and let off the buttons before the weapon could strike the second.

Regarding his hit on the lady barber: He had tried to hit a VC sniper who was getting a haircut. His first shot was wide right and high and hit the top of the hut. The two VC snipers and the female barber ducked for cover behind the hut before Hathcock could get the second round off. He took a chance and fired into the hut where he figured they may be hiding. The bullet passed through the hut and struck the woman in the neck. The snipers bolted and the woman was retrieved. She survived and provided some interesting intel on how determined the VC were to snuff Hathcock. This was done with his 30-06.

[gun-fucious]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=48993

As we rolled out of our bags at 5 a.m. in Nevada's Black Rock Desert, it wasn't so hard
to empathize with Dierks. The sand had drunk up the night's rain as if not a drop had
fallen. We were surrounded by silence and a lunar beauty; urban pressures seemed
impossibly far off. Aside from Dead-Eye Skip Talbot, the others here for the two-mile shoot
were John Burtt, 55, a retired burglary detective from Riverside, Calif., and a lobbyist for the
.50-Caliber Shooter's Association, and Roy Douglas, 68, a retired water resource expert from
Palestine, Tex. Their guns were match-grade rifles, locked down in vises to prevent lateral
movement but allowing them to move from front to back with the recoil. Match .50's weigh up
to 125 pounds, owing to an even thicker-than-usual barrel. The heavier the barrel, the less it
wavers when the bullet goes through it, and the straighter it shoots.


At 6 a.m., things happened just as Talbot predicted: first, the little breeze, then dead calm as
the sun began peeking over the ridge. Burtt went up to the line first, and the rest of us
prepared to watch through our spotting scopes. Once the gun goes off, the bullet takes exactly
seven seconds to reach the target, which is when you look for sand kicking up or for
fragments splintering off the rock face.

"I'm hot," said Burtt, signaling that he was within two or three seconds of firing. Then:
BLAAM. Seven seconds later, on the dot, a little divot flew up about 70 yards to the lower left
of the rock, at about 8 o'clock. His second shot was closer, his third low but directly on line.
Burtt adjusted the elevation, then asked if I wanted to give his gun a try.

[PvtPyle]

Thats not the same as taking a combat shot at 2 miles. The rifle are not even in the same ballpark. Corriea can hit a 5 gallon buck sized target at 425m with his .45. Does that mean he could do it in the stress of combat. Does that mean he can do it all the time?


And yes, he was witnessed doing it by about a dozen people. He also made a head shot on a maniquin head at 200m, same gun.

[Al Thompson]

Interestingly, most of the USMC .50s were not Barrets. I attended a debrief by one of the Captains at the WTB on the .50 use and the Raufus round. He had pictures of a couple of MTLBs burning in the Kuwaitee desert. I "think" they were using Horstcamp bolt guns for the most part - may have been MacMillens. :confused:

The Norma developed Raufus round has a explosive base and an incendiary payload. The point hit, penetrates, explosives detonate in the base and the fireworks in the target commence. Those two burning tracks were pretty impressive. Both were 1600m or so.

Also - IIRC - the Air Force was the first service to actually purchase a quantity of Barrets for anti-mine use. The Army liked the idea after the Gulf War and the AMU developed a POI and inhouse repair capability in '93.

JShirley reports that his snipers in Ft. Lewis were told that they would get Barrets to supplement the M24.

An Army Captain named Brophy also did some long range sniping with the M2 and a converted soviet AT rifle in Korea.

HTH

[gun-fucious]

Thats not the same as taking a combat shot at 2 miles

true, but it does answer the "how long does it take?" question

2 miles in 7 seconds

thats pretty cool
and it does point out that a "head shot" at 2 miles would require a very stationary target.

[rock jock]

Corriea can hit a 5 gallon buck sized target at 425m with his .45. Does that mean he could do it in the stress of combat. Does that mean he can do it all the time?
I would like to see that, not because I doubt it but rather because of the pure joy and awe it would inspire. How about an mpeg Corriea?

[PvtPyle]

I think I actually got the head shot on video. It was at our first big shoot. The other one lots of people try, and more than a few do it. It just takes a lot of practice. This is also the same guy who shot my 38lb 50cal boltgun off hand. He has something of a gift I think.

[rock jock]

What's the holdover on a 425m shot with a .45ACP? Most ballistic tables stop at 100m and typically show around 6-7 inches of drop at that distance, so I'm guessing maybe five feet?

[Gordon]

.45 Hard ball drops 9 feet more or less to 500 yds so yo do math. I used to hit jerry cans pretty regualrly at 300 yds by holding 2 cans height over. I can still hit a gallon jug at 200 yds a couple times in 7 rds by holding 2 feet over. My Gold cup is sighted for 6 oclock hold at 25yds which puts it right on at 50 yds 3" low at 75yds and 6" low at 100yds with Ball.

[PvtPyle]

I dont know what the drop is, but it is a lot. But once we found out what rock to aim at, so that we could hit the other one it is really pretty easy. I guess you could call it cheating, knowing the aiming point and all. Wind is a factor sometimes as this is up on a hillside overlooking a lake.

On the head shot I think Corriea said it was a 14 or 16 inch holdover. You'll have to ask him or George Hill. George was next to him when he did it and they worked on it for a while if I remember right.

[Al Thompson]

Just read Anthony Swoffard's book "Jarhead". He mentioons that they were issued Barrets just before the ground war in GWI. The hoary myth of shooting at vehicles and web gear was mentioned.

Not a very good book, IMHO. Get it from the library as I did.

[Correia]

Those are my Bob Munden moments. :)

The 425 shot requires a ton of hold over. It is hard to estimate vertical distance at that range, I would say I probably hold about 5-7 feet over the target. Wind drift is a pain. Wish I knew the actual amount, but a lot of it is just eye balling the shot.

The 200 yard shot was about 2 feet hold over. IIRC, but I did not hit it on the first shot. I hit it with the 2nd, and was able to see the impact in the dirt. A little bit of practice and I can usually hit stuff like that 2 or 3 times out of 5. On a good, no wind day.

Would I try this in real life? Only if there was absofreakinglutely no other option. And that includes running away! :D

And shooting the .50 standing up is fun. Hard part is holding the barrel up long enough to aim. :)

[V.Oller]

Saw one in use last night on Fox News. Looks like they were using it in a target marking role...