Mosin-Nagant accuracy


PDA






Slater
February 7, 2005, 11:59 AM
The accuracy of Mosins can apparently vary from good to truly awful. For those of you that own these rifles, what kind of accuracy do you get?

If you enjoyed reading about "Mosin-Nagant accuracy" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Erich
February 7, 2005, 01:25 PM
I've owned more that a dozen over the years. Most beaters would do 3" groups at 100 yds (the worst would only group about 6" at that distance). The refurbs and good conditioned ones would do closer to 2" groups, and my 1894-receivered M39 (great condition) has grouped 5 shots under an inch at that distance. :)

You get a lot of individual variation. I've got a nasty mismatched 91/30 that has the nicest Mosin trigger I've ever seen (and I've fired a lot of Mosins - I'm probably one of the lazier collectors of my group of friends). It's very fun to shoot at the 200 yard gongs - I can almost always outshoot everyone with their scoped hunting rifles. :)

benEzra
February 7, 2005, 01:26 PM
Finnish 1942 VKT M39, built on a 1905 receiver; best group 1 3/8" at 100 yards, from sandbags, 4 shots, using Wolf 148-grain FMJ, using the issue iron sights. (5th shot was a called flyer.)

cracked butt
February 7, 2005, 01:53 PM
Of the two that I have, a m44 and a 91/30 refurb, the m44 is a wallhanger, it doesn't shoot. I've tried recrowning, counterboring, even cutting the barrel back a little bit, but the rifling is gone and there is no way it will ever shoot- it shoots 3' groups at 50 yards.

The 91/30 I have is in really good condition. It shoots 4" groups at 100, its probably capable of better, but the trigger on the rifle is really bad. Overall, besides my bad m44, the 91/30 is the worst shooter (off a bench) out of 20 something surplus rifles I have. On the other hand, I really enjoy shooting it because it fits me well and it balances well. I can shoot it off hand much better than I can many other rifles.

kaferhaus
February 7, 2005, 05:16 PM
Very rare to find any military rifle of that era that will consistently shoot under 3" groups at 100M. The standard that most had to meet for acceptance was 3.5 -4" in most cases with the 98K being 3". But they only had to do it from a machine rest....

I've had several Mosin's two that could pass for un-issued and even they were 3.5-4" guns with any consistency.

But of course only on the internet do you find all these tack driver surplus loose tolerance when new... military rifles.

You NEVER see them at the range...

The ones you do see,are always pie plate guns which is what they all really are when you get down to it..

drone23
February 7, 2005, 05:27 PM
My M44 using Czech Silver Tip ammo is pretty darn accurate. Now I just need an aftermarket stock to keep it from destroying my shoulder ever time I shoot it and im set.

-D

Lonestar.45
February 7, 2005, 05:54 PM
I shot the 91/30 for the first time a few weekends ago. The first 3 rds of Wolf FMJ at 50 yds were all touching, about 5" low, direcly below the bull.

At 100 yds, the group opened up to about 2 - 3". It's hard to say if that was the gun or me. It's been a while since I shot 100yds w/open sights. All in all, I was pleased. Of course, for a rifle built in 1936 and hacked by a bubba that I got for under $100 and shooting $5 box of ammo, I'd have been happy w/5" groups, especially my first time out.

It shot the Wolf FMJ MUCH more accurately than the Sellier & Bellot 180gr SP. I don't know why, it just did. The Wolf was 148gr I believe. If I were to handload, put a scout mount and scope on it, I believe it would be a 1" gun maybe. But I won't go through that trouble, I like it the way it is.

ID_shooting
February 7, 2005, 06:01 PM
My 91/30 is "minute of plate" but I don't use it for bench shooting. It is merely a plinker so it is good enough for me.

Erich
February 7, 2005, 06:22 PM
kaferhaus, good point. However, handloads help a great deal with accuracy for MNs. :) I should clarify that the groups I've listed are the best ones the guns ever did - not the ones you'll see me produce on most trips. I think that's what Slater is looking for, the potential - am I right, Slater?

Slater
February 7, 2005, 06:51 PM
Yes, just the best accuracy you've ever gotten. I realize that high accuracy wasn't a strict requirement for these rifles in the rush to supply the front lines, and many of them were produced under trying conditions.

Someone told me once that if you pull the trigger of a Mosin-Nagant and it goes "bang", it just did pretty much all that was ever asked of a Mosin :)

kaferhaus
February 7, 2005, 06:54 PM
A random "good group" does not indicate the rifles potential.

The average of maybe 20 groups fired on the same day in favorable wind conditions does.

Handloads are always an advantage as most surplus ammo is of dubious quality, powder and bullets are much improved in the last 60 or so years... BUT you're still shooting a barrel that was made absolutely as fast as possible with little regard for straightness, consistent bore diameter, chamber consistency.... etc. etc. and fit it to a bolt and action that's been purposely made to have loose tolerances so the thing will still work with dirt, water, ice and whatever else in it...

Then you slam that barreled action into a stock thats poorly fitted to it, that has numerous pressure points along the length of the barrel.... not too hard to imagine why they are not "accurate" compared to your run of the mill bargain basement priced commercial hunting rifle...

When you realize how these things were actually made, it's almost a miracle that they'll hit the dang pie plate at 100...

George S.
February 7, 2005, 07:24 PM
My 1931 Izzy 91/30 will consistently group at 8" at 200 yards using Czech silvertip milsurp ammo. At 100 yards, it will shoot 4" to 6" groups. The bore is pretty dark but the muzzle and crown are in good shape and I probably won't do a counterbore or recrown. I have yet to try the Wolf ammo but I would think it may be better than 60-year old surplus ammo.

The 91/30's were built for use by the Russian peasants who were given very little marksmanship training. The 91/30 was designed with a 200 yard zero so the Russian soldiers could initially engage the enemy at a long distance.

Has anyone shot a 91/30 with the bayonet attached? I know that one trick to improve accuracy on the M44 is to extend the bayonet to help with barrel harmonics but I was curious if it may help the 91/30 shoot better.

Eric86GT
February 7, 2005, 07:26 PM
The only time I benched my 91/30 was with Barnaul 203 gr. SP at 50 yards. The best group I got was 3 holes touching. The other 2 rounds I won't count as I was listening to my spotter that was trying to guide me to the bull. I need to see what she'll do at 100 yards.

Erich
February 7, 2005, 09:10 PM
FWIW, the old 198-grain '80s production Russian stuff that used to be omnipresent was wonderfully accurate, and on Tuco's it was held to be target ammo.

Ah, back then we thought it would never dry up. I shot a lot of those cans up . . . and then it was gone. :what: I only have a bit left. :banghead:

The Czech silvertip is nice, too, but not as nice. :(

DMK
February 7, 2005, 09:28 PM
Don't bother with the $59 M44s or the $79 91/30s. (Although my three $100 unissued 91/59 carbines shoot pretty well if I can keep from flinching, I guess around 3 MOA with Hungarian 149gr. LPZ).

Spend a little more on a better quality rifle:

Finnish M39 - Somewhere around $200-$250 at WG&A (http://www.gunsnammo.com/index_files/m39.htm) They have free floated barrels as issued and both of these shoots under 2 MOA with their favorite surplus ammo. (One likes Yugo 180gr and the other likes Czech 148gr. Interestingly, I tried some $$$ Lapua match in one of these and it didn't shoot noticably better, perhaps that's just as good as *I* can shoot).

http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/myarms/m39s_1.jpg

Eric86GT
February 7, 2005, 09:36 PM
A Finn M39 is next on my list of rifles. I want to get a handgun first though as I have 3 rifles, one shotgun, and no pistols.

BTW, nice looking Finns you have there.

cracked butt
February 7, 2005, 09:47 PM
Very rare to find any military rifle of that era that will consistently shoot under 3" groups at 100M. The standard that most had to meet for acceptance was 3.5 -4" in most cases with the 98K being 3". But they only had to do it from a machine rest....

Just about any rifle can be made to shoot in 3" if you handload for it, some rifles turn into downright tackdrivers if you switch to low velocity cast lead loads and a little lick with finding a good load/alloy/bullet design/lube combo. You are certainly right about military rifles shooting much more poorly with issue ammo, with the noted exception of Swedish and Swiss rifles with their issue ammo. My Swiss rifles shoot GP-11 ammo nearly as good as my remington 700s, but then again these are precision rifles and a Russin mosin is more or less a spear that happens to fire bullets.

GD
February 7, 2005, 09:57 PM
In my collection I have 25 Mosins - a variety of Russian, Polish, Romanian, and Finnish. In all but the Finnish, I have some that shoot great and some that don't. All 14 of my Finnish Mosins shoot at or better than 3" groups at 100 yards. Five of these rifles are Finnish M39's and have bores that range from good to mirror. Even the rifles only rated good bores still shoot great groups. I think the Finns must have had much greater quality control than the Soviets.
I don't think that you can get a better value or a more accurate modern milsurp than a Finn M39 . . . and shoot as much as you want at 10 cents per round.

DMK
February 7, 2005, 10:34 PM
a Russin mosin is more or less a spear that happens to fire bullets. LOL! :D

Clean97GTI
February 8, 2005, 12:00 AM
my M44 will shoot to BHOA.

I am pretty accurate out to 200 yars owns me and the cheap ammo takes its toll.

ShootTheM14
June 12, 2009, 05:48 AM
I work at a rifle range in Sonoma County, CA. I have friends who are smiths are I shoot competitively. I own several Mosins. Don't buy a Mosin for accuracy. Most Internet posters describe their groups as 2" smaller and probably would add a similar increase to the size of their manhood. No Mosin can compete with a modern rifle for accuracy and if you try to put money into the Mosin be aware that you'll be able to buy a far more accurate rifle out of the box for the same money.

But, if you are like me and have scores of guns and want to do this as a labor of love here are a few tips that worked for me. #1 be able to do all your own work or have friends who are gun smiths to do the work you cannot do. #2 inspect your potential purchases until you find a near perfect bore. This might mean inspecting 100s of rifles.

I have many 1000s of rounds of pretty decent 7.62x54R surplus I've purchased over the years when it was 3-15 cents / round (Russian Surplus, 7N1, Czech Silvertip). I wanted a good platform to shoot that ammo. My current Mosins were typical Mosins (pie plate accuracy) and not capable of the degree of accuracy I desired. I checked all the Big 5 stores in my area for years looking for one of those Ukranian refinished rifles with an exceptional bore. Eventually I found one that did have a near perfect bore, perhaps it was re barreled or never issued. It's the only surplus rifle I cleaned after purchase that had no copper fouling. At this point I refinished the stock (Amber Shellac), floated the barrel, bent the bold, chromed the bolt, re crowned the barrel with a target crown (old crown was good but I wanted a modern crown), installed a PEM style scope mount and put on a modern scope, did a home made trigger job to get the pull down to about 4 lbs. The instructions for all these operations (except crowning and bolt work) I found on the web. This rifle shoots good surplus ammo consistently about 1.5 to 2.0 MOA with flyers occasionally opening the group to about 2.5 MOA. That's not the best group it ever shoots, that's the average group with surplus ammo. Considering the quality of the ammo that's excellent for a 1939 Soviet Mosin 91/30. Mostly I use it to shoot 3" clays at 300 yards and it can hit those clays about 40-60% of the time if I dope the wind right. I can hit 6" boards at 300 yards 80-90% of the time which is fun when competing against my buddies sub MOA 700s shooting their handloads.

If all these MOA out of the box Mosins exist I've never seen them on the range where I work. I have Remington 700 Varmint and Savage Model 10 Police Models I've done a little work on (trigger, bedding) that can shoot my handloads sub MOA. I'll never get a Mosin to shoot like that. Perhaps with handloads this one Mosin could shoot MOA but why waste time and money loading top of the line ammo for an inferior rifle. My Mosins are fun because they can shoot cheap surplus I don't have to load and if I can hit clays at 300 yards with some consistency and boards consistently that's all I ask.

Here is a good example of the type of false hope you'll find if you rely on the web to find out how accurate a standard Mosin should be:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu63.htm

Don't believe that you'll just stick a couple pieces of cork into an old Mosin and start shooting great groups. Unfortunately it just don't work like that.

Rubber_Duck
June 12, 2009, 06:03 AM
This thread is over four years old! :scrutiny:

stubbicatt
June 12, 2009, 09:29 AM
From Shoot the M14: Here is a good example of the type of false hope you'll find if you rely on the web to find out how accurate a standard Mosin should be:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu63.htm

Don't believe that you'll just stick a couple pieces of cork into an old Mosin and start shooting great groups. Unfortunately it just don't work like that.

There is another contributor on here who corked his rifle and shoots great groups. I don't recollect his screen name, but it would seem that sometimes this technique works.

If you enjoyed reading about "Mosin-Nagant accuracy" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!