[115grfmj]

Went to the range yesterday with my beloved 686+ 4". Took two boxes of
S&B 158sp. Out of 100rd 5 rounds didn't detonate, 3 required second strikes,
and 2 required 3!!! The ammo was kept in my garage, it was 30 degrees over night. All my ammo is kept in the garage, but I've never had this happen to any other brand. I checked the primers, nice deep punch by the firing pin.
Anyone else have this experience with S&B? :(

[R.H. Lee]

I have had failures to fire with S&B 9mm, but only with a BHP Practical I bought used. I replaced the springs and test fired some 200 rounds of S&B yesterday, no ftf. That said, the firing pins marks were much shallower on the S&B than on Federal, WWB or Fiocchi (my favorite). I've heard S&B primers are harder, but if the firing pin mark was nice & deep on those rounds...????

I've used S&B .45 acp with zero problems.

[neoncowboy]

I've gone to the range with 100rds of S&B (.45ACP) and had 100% work flawlessly.

I've been shooting the WWB stuff from wal-mart though...the price is about the same and it seems a little better made.

[COK]

Last year I shot around a thousand rds or a bit more of 45 and 9mm in that make and never had a problem ?

[Chupacabra]

My brother was having some trouble with 9mm S&B a couple weeks ago. Five failures to fire out of a box of 50! The primers all had nice, centered strikes on them. A few weeks before that, he had a bad 40S&W round. Maybe they are having a run of bad primers...

:uhoh:

[GlenJ]

S&B has hard primers so it's not 100% with all guns. Case in point some Kel-Tec P32s won't strike it hard enough but mine does.

[larryw]

I love the S&B 45 ammo. Great stuff and I've never had a problem with it.

A couple friends challenged my endorsement and said they had ongoing problems with S&B. Turns out they were shooting 9 and 40. Enough guns and different shooters were involved for this to be more than just coincidence.

So now I qualify my endorsement of S&B to only the 45ACP ammo (and their 410 buckshot and 7.62x54R loads are pretty good too!)

[Ky Larry]

Never had a problem with S&B primers. However, I did get some Olympic 9mm that seemed to have hard primers. You might want to try a different batch of S&B from a different dealer. If the problem repeats its self, it may be gun related. If not, it was probably just a bad batch of primers. Good luck.

[Chipperman]

I've fired literally thousands of rounds of S&B in about 6 different calibers. It has always worked well for me.

[boohsdad]

Use S&B for all my practice, Never a problem. 45, 9, 12 gauge 223.

[BilboTN]

I've had a few problems with it in my S&W M66. Nice deep strike but no bang. I guess I can live with a few no fires occassinally when I know it's the ammo and I'm at the range. I won't use it as my SD ammo though.

[PaleRyder]

This is interesting, because the only failures I have had with S&B are also in a BHP Practical.

[Brass Balls]

Never had that happen with S&B .45 of which I've shot over 30k rounds. Worst thing that's ever happened with it is I had one light load, but it still had enough juice for the bullet to clear the barrel. I also keep mine in my garage. The lowest temperature here doesn't go much below freezing though.

[macavada]

I've had a couple of .32 ACP's fail to detonate, but those were in a Manurhin Walther PP with old springs. Never had any other failures to fire in any other caliber with S&B.

[BluesBear]

Several thousand rounds of S&B in .45 ACP, .357 Mag, .38 Spl and .44 Mag.
Never had any problems with any of it.

[Spieler]

I've been shooting S&B in various calibers, though primarily 9mmP and .45 ACP, for over a decade with nary a problem.

Sorry to hear that you are having a problem with it. Maybe a bad lot got through?

[GaryP]

Could be a bad lot. I have never had a problem with the S&B .45acp!


:evil:

[bpisler]

I've never had any problems with S&B handgun ammo but 3" 12 gauge OO buck will stick in the chamber of my 870.

[George S.]

The only "issue" I have with S&B is the red sealer on their primers. It transfers to the bolt face and I just have to scrub a bit more to remove it. I save my S&B cases for reloading and I occasionally come across a primer that is a bit harder to remove.

Otherwise, I think it's great ammo and cleaner than WWB. The accuracy seemst to be about the same for target or plinking use and buying it from my internet source, it's actually cheaper than WWB.

[yodar]

Comparisons and contrast between S & B and W/W white Box ammo is interesting.

Sellier & Bellot makes the pistol ammo in most, if not all, of the calibers for W/W I even found 7.62 x 25 CZ 52 ammo under that label and inquiries confirmed that it is S & B. I applaud them. Rather than offend the WalMart shopper with higher w/w prices for domestic man ammo they did a deal with S & B. Everybody''s happy. S & B brass is good brass, surviving many reloads

Centerfire Systems is selling new-man non corr S & B in various pistol calibers per 500 rnds and some good prices

subscribe to their quarterly flyer

good way to get into trouble buying stuff you wouldnt'a known about otherwise

Yodar

[Black Snowman]

I haven't shot 357 or 38 extenisvely most of my experiance has been with S&B shot shells. Specificly the slugs and 00 buck. Both work fine in my Mossberg. I have shot some 9 mm and 45 ACP S&B without issues. But they we both through CZs, you you'd expect them to work since they were the ammo the guns were tested with in development and before shipping out. I've shot a small sampling of 40 S&W through my Glock 24P without problems.

[Jrob24]

Anyone else have this experience with S&B?

Yessir. I rented a .38 at a range with S&B ammo. 2 rounds didn't fire on the first hammer strike.

[Kramer Krazy]

Not S&B but a similar problem.......I have a little AMT Backup in 45ACP that I bought new when they came out (1996?). I had never had a problem out of the gun until a couple of months ago. I was firing Wolf ammo and had three failures to detonate out of 30 rounds. A couple weeks later, I tried the gun with Winchester White Box and ran across the same thing, but with more frequency. Then I tried some PMC and still had 3 out of every 5 needing a second or third strike. The primers had really deep indentions, and the failures didn't look any different than the ones that did detonate. I replaced the hammer spring with a new one.....and haven't had a problem, yet. If your gun is a few years old, and the hammer spring hasn't been replaced, it may be at the beginning of more often ftd problems in the future. You may want to replace the spring and see if that makes a difference. My new spring was about 1/4" longer than the one I took out of it, but the coil diameter and number of coils were the same. Looked like it was permanently deformed from original specs......At least it is something to look into with your gun. Wish you luck with it.

[Third_Rail]

I went through 100 rounds (two boxes) of S&B 38 spl. LRN without a problem.

Maybe you got a bad batch? I'd at least try to contact the company about it.

[kihnspiracy]

Over the years I have probably fired about 10,000 rounds of S & B 45acp 230gr ball ammo. I have never had a problem with it. 2 weeks ago, I put 450 rounds thru my Wilson CQB one afternoon with no problems at all. I think it shoots great and is easy on the wallet for those who don't reload. :evil:

[at-home-daddy]

Only FTF I've had in my P3AT .380 was with S&B. I've run a few boxes of their .357Sig through another pistol, and it all seemed to run fine, if a bit dirty; I've heard numerous reports though of FTF's with this caliber as well. I avoid it in favor of CCI/Speer, Federal, etc.

[Zach S]

Never had a problem with S&B .45, although its not something I shoot on a regular basis. I'd say its been less than 500 rounds.
I've never had any problems with S&B handgun ammo but 3" 12 gauge OO buck will stick in the chamber of my 870.
My 590 loves the 3" 00 buck. My shoulder hates it though.

[denfoote]

I have used S&B for years.
The only "problem" I ever found was that it tended to be a little hot!!

[mack69]

I've had similar issues with S+B ammo in the 7.62x25 variety shooting from my CZ52....Nice, deep looking primer strikes but no boom. Not a firing pin issue either as I had changed the FP after the first time I experienced this issue. Maybe they use soft primers or something??? :confused: mack

[shooter1]

A friend and I bought a thousand rounds in 32ACP to test the then new P-32. We had mumerous FTFs with the S&B. The primers were definately harder than the other ammo used in the test. No such problems with the other brands.
str1

[HKGuns]

I've shot a fair amount of .45 ACP in my USP and have found it just as reliable as Winchester White Box.

[MrMurphy]

I've probably put 6,000 rounds of various calibers through S&B ammo in various guns. Never a problem.

9mm, .40, .45, .357, .38, 12ga, 5.56mm, 7.62X39mm, .303 Brit, etc.

Actually now I thought of it, had a box of 158g .357 where the cases were sticking really solid against the chamber walls of my S&W 581, made it hard to extract. Only time that happened though (next box was fine).

[LiquidTension]

Over 1k of S&B .45, no problems. Nearly 1k of 9mm, no problems. Good brass, too - I reload it.

[Old Dog]

Just in case all of the previous positive endorsements of S & B haven't convinced you ... another vote supporting it ... Have fired several thousand rounds of 9mm over the past approx. ten years through two Beretta 92s, one Taurus 92, one Browning HP and a S & W 5906 ... Not one problem, ever.

Several hundred rounds of .45 ACP through various 1911s, no problems, either.

[357SIG]

I had a problem with one box of 140 gr. 357 SIG in my G33. 3 of he rounds did not fire, even after a second and third hit. My firing pin worked fine and the dents were deep. I eventually ended up breaking through the primer on one round when I kept reloading it. Besides that, it is the filthiest ammo I've used in a while.

[Kamicosmos]

S&B is currently my carry ammo in both .45 acp (230gr FMJ CZ97B) and .357 (158 SP, SP101). I've only fired maybe 50 rounds of each right now though, but it hasn't given me trouble yet. Maybe I should top the SP101 back off with my fancy-uber expensive Federal Primium stuff untill I shoot a few hundred rounds of the S&B?

Also, if it is a temp related issue, I will have a perfect test to do in a day or two. I have a speedloader of the .357 out in my Jeep, so it's been subjected to quite a temperature range over the past month or so.

[jamz]

http://www.mricenter.com/jamz/case.jpg

[PATH]

Never has a problem with any S&B ammo. I don't use it as a carry ammo though. I use Federal or Speer for carry. As for the dirtiest it would have to be Wolf. The hottest would have to be Fiocchi.

[shooter1]

jamz,
Hope all those case failures occurred after the 10th reloading! Have you got a oversize chamber perhaps? Just curious.
str1

[jamz]

str1: Nope, fresh out of a brandy-new box which you can see in the background.

After these came out, I shot a box of WWB .38, and .357 of another brand (I forget which) and had no problems. It ain't the chamber. :)

-James

[shooter1]

Glad to hear the chamber is not at fault! I had a S&W Military and Police that split the cases on one chamber. Normally the 38spl brass splits at the case mouth. The case failures like those in your picture usually occur in nickel plated brass after being loaded numerous times. It would be interesting to check a fired case from each chamber with a micrometer just for grins.
Good shooting!
str1

[Nando Aqui]

I have not had any problems with S&B either.

.45 ACP: Have shot over 1500 rounds with H&K USP Tactical and about 200 with Kimber SST2 = 0 problems.

9mm: Have shot over 1000 rounds with H&K USP Compact (well, my wife has) and also with a S&W 5906 = 0 problems.

Alex

[BluesBear]

Jamz, those weren't, by any chance, fired in a five shot revolver were they?

[Dot_mdb]

I have had a similar case rupture in a S&B .38 special after approximately 5 reloads. I have also encountered some poorly formed brass in new out of the box .38 specials. I have never had a problem with S&B 9mm or S&B .45.

Bill

[TexasRifleman]

No problems here either, I use S&B in .38 Special, 30-06, and .380.

[HKGuns]

I can't tell for certain, but do those look like weak primer strikes to anyone else? (In the picture above of course)

Its not quite close enough, but they look a tad on the shallow side to my eyes. Could just be the angle.

[BluesBear]

The primer indentations look fine to me.

[RugerOldArmy]

I've never had a problem with S&B, in 9mm or .45 Auto. I am of the understanding (or at least I heard) that european primers ARE in general harder than american primers. This being the case, or at least what I've been lead to believe, if I had a situation in which S&B didn't fire, I'd consider new springs.

My impression was that I favored S&B (especially the 124 gr FMJ in 9mm) over Blaser, WWB, and UMC. I thought it was quality stuff, at least in comparison to value pack WWB. (But the 124 Gr FMJ was hard to find.)

But the picture Jamz posted, if not a cylinder problem, would be cause for concern. Damn, 10 of 12? Or were they all like that? Might be a batch of brittle brass. As another poster mentioned, I've only seen that w/Nickle, and even then right after belling the case or seating a bullet.

[MaterDei]

Thumbs up for the .45ACP. I too reload the brass, top notch.

[115grfmj]

All The Endorsements Of S&b .45 And 9mm Are Not Really Helpful. In
Fact Any Ammo That Doesnt Go Bang With A Good Solid Strike...
Isn't Worth The Money To Me. I've Read Up On It Now And This Isn't
Un Common. Guess I Get What I Paid For.

[wardog]

I had the same problem with S & B .357 SIG. Gun was a USPc. Probably 3 or 4 in 200 rounds.

[Gunsnrovers]

All The Endorsements Of S&b .45 And 9mm Are Not Really Helpful.
Why? Because not enough people share your complaint?

[115grfmj]

NO thats not it at all. Although YOU are rather insulting. I said that because
I was refering to their .357 Mag offering, out of a REVOLVER. I intended no
offense to anyone else I just wanted to hear from people with experience
with that same caliber and platform !! :rolleyes:

[larryw]

No, you asked:
Anyone else have this experience with S&B?
You asked about S&B in general, not S&B 357Mag out of a revolver. If you want a specific answer, ask a specific question.

And work on that attitude.

[RugerOldArmy]

:what: <never mind, it's not worth saying>

[115grfmj]

Great, thanks, and you as well. To everyone who share their experiences
I appreciate it. Apparently I didn't ask a specific enough question. My loss.

[Pumpkinheaver]

I've shot a lot of this ammo too and have never had a ftf.

[BluesBear]

Anyone else have this experience with S&B? This was your original question. Sorry you weren't happy with the answers.
All The Endorsements Of S&b .45 And 9mm Are Not Really Helpful. In
Fact Any Ammo That Doesnt Go Bang With A Good Solid Strike...
Isn't Worth The Money To Me. I've Read Up On It Now And This Isn't
Un Common. Guess I Get What I Paid For.Read up? Where. It seems like here on THR most of us have had good results with S&B ammo. I paid $8.50 per box for my S&B .357 and it was well worth it.... I said that because I was refering to their .357 Mag offering, out of a REVOLVER. I intended no offense to anyone else I just wanted to hear from people with experience with that same caliber and platform !!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21607
S&W Model 28-2. 6" Barrel vintage 1978. Lightened mainspring and trigger return. Extremely smooth and light trigger pull. 100% with S&B .357 magnum.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21608
S&B .357 Magnum 158gr FMJ (the two missing rounds haven't been fired yet) This is one of two boxes purchased at Sam's Range early 2004.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21609
I bought 5 boxes of FMJ at a local gunshow in 2002, five boxes of JHP in 2003 and two more boxes of FMJ at my local range early 2004. That's a total of 600 rounds. Twenty rounds of JHP were fired from a rental S&W model 60. The rest from my old Model 28-2.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21610
Nice deep primer indents. All went ¡BANG! the first try. My range sells a LOT of it for rental guns.




I hope this meets the criteria for a correct response.


And of course the fact that I've personally shot twice as many S&B .38special, almost 4 times as many S&B .45acp, all without a failure, is immaterial.

.

[TheEgg]

115grfmj

Has your revolver had, perchance, an 'action job' or had weaker springs than factory installed?

[Trebor]

Sellier & Bellot makes the pistol ammo in most, if not all, of the calibers for W/W I even found 7.62 x 25 CZ 52 ammo under that label and inquiries confirmed that it is S & B. I applaud them. Rather than offend the WalMart shopper with higher w/w prices for domestic man ammo they did a deal with S & B. Everybody''s happy. S & B brass is good brass, surviving many reloads

Do you have a source for your statement that S&B makes WWB? That's about the third different company I've seen listed as the supposed maker of WWB. I've also heard rumors that WWB is made by IMI. (I can't remember the third company I've heard. It was on a post here or at GT)

[BluesBear]

I have seen the Q4170 Winchester USA brand 230 gr FMJ .45ACP ammo with "Made in Czech Republic" printed on the box.


Q3131 is the US manufactured Winchester USA brand 55gr FMJBT .223 ammo.
Q3131A is the same ammo manufactured by IMI for Winchester.

To my knowledge that is the only IMI produced ammunition sold by Winchester.

All other IMI ammo is distributed by those idiots at A-MERC. :barf:



I don't mind Winchester subcontracting ammunition manufacturing. I just wish they didn't label it as "Winchester USA".

[MR73]

I've fired hundreds of S&B in 9mm, 38sp., 45ACP.
Not once did I experience a failure of any sort.

[dghboy315]

i don't like S&B. i've had number of primer failures. plus, it is dirty. not as bad as wolf, but not worth the price. i'd rather spend a little more and get better ammo.

[mr.trooper]

:scrutiny:

how bout you quit whining. iv fire hundreds of rounds of 115grain FMJ 9mm ammo through a Hi-point 9mm withought a Miss-fire, jam, or Failure to extract.

But then again this is OLD S&B ammo. Iv got a case of the stuff. The box looks different to. its a cream color with a red band on it, and big scrawlling "Seller & Bellot" logo ont he top. the case is made up of 250 round bricks wich are devided up into 25 round mini boxes.

Its not THAT old...maybee a decade?

[Nitram68]

I've never had problems with S&B, sounds like a bad batch??

[Daniel T]

NO thats not it at all. Although YOU are rather insulting. I said that because
I was refering to their .357 Mag offering, out of a REVOLVER. I intended no
offense to anyone else I just wanted to hear from people with experience
with that same caliber and platform !!

My experience with S&B .357 Mag out of a REVOLVER mirrors Bluesbear's. Colt Lawman MK III 4". Flawless.

Also, the thousands of rounds I fired in .45ACP, 7.62x25, .32ACP, and 9mm have all fired flawlessly.

Why would you bother posting if you didn't want feedback? Sorry bud, when you ask a question in an open forum, you get what people want to tell you. Especially when you ask an very general question in your initial post.

[MoeMentum]

I guess it depends on the gun, I never had a problem, been shooting S&B for years.

[115grfmj]

No offense was intended to anyone (A point I already made). It seems
amazing to me that adults should take so personally, even the slightest
questioning of a favorite product. I believe that this forum exists to
freely discuss the merits and benefits of differing products related to shooting. It should not engender personal and childish attacks on an
idividual, for expressing his/her point of view. I have been a member
of this forum for quite a few years, and view it as an important resource.
I'm sorry I even presented this issue to the forum, and will think
twice about posting anything in the future. Now lets all move on
shall we.

[Mikke]

I have shot thousands of S&B in both 9mm, .38 Spec and .357 mag (in decreasing amounts). Never had a primer that didn't go boom on the first try, except that time with my 686 when the screw that pushes on the hammerspring had backed out. Are you sure that's not what have happened?

About S&B brass, in .38 I have had lots of split cases like those in pictures before, both on first firing (new from factory) as well as when shooting reloads. Can't remember that ever happening with .357 or 9mm (definetly).
The 9mm cases have a small priming pocket, which makes them more or less useless for reloading for me (it is possible to reload, but I have had lots of problems with seating the primers).

[cookekdjr]

Just for those who are curious, I have used 9x18 (Mak) S&B ammo. found it to be accurate and reliable. Enjoyed it.
David

[birdv]

I've never had problems with S&B, sounds like a bad batch??

Agree

[P226]

15,000 throught a Vector Uzi and S&W 76 both full auto in 9mm with no problems.A couple hundred of that went into my Sig P226 also with no problems.

I have only fired a few hundred .45 rounds in a Sig P220
,but a friend has fired alot in his PS MAC 10 with no problems.

I did have some problems with S&B 40s&w.It would not feed in several guns(Beretta 96,Glock 22,Glock 27)

I like the 9mm and .45acp but would not buy the .40s&w again.

[nonquixote]

I've shot a couple thousand rounds of S&B in various calibers, mostly before I started reloading. Of those, I've had one failure, a squib in 9mm. I've never had a problem with the .357 mag ammo, but it seems just slightly underpowered to me, perhaps I'm just used to shooting hotter loads. I have seen a box that a friend had that had a backwards primer on one round, can't remember the caliber though.

Nonq

[Cosmoline]

I haven't shot a lot of S&B handgun ammo, but I've had excellent luck with their rifle ammo, esp. the 8x57JS and 7.62x54R. Maybe it's a problem with European primers and US firing pins.

[texagun]

Trebor wrote: "Do you have a source for your statement that S&B makes WWB? That's about the third different company I've seen listed as the supposed maker of WWB. I've also heard rumors that WWB is made by IMI. (I can't remember the third company I've heard. It was on a post here or at GT)"

I went to Walmart last week to pick up some Winchester White Box .45 ACP. The price had risen from $19.97/100rds to $24.97/100rds. The salesman said that Sellier and Bellot was now making all the WWB in .45 ACP and that their prices had recently increased. I went to the Dallas gunshow this weekend and asked 2 ammo dealers who are very knowlegable about current ammo manufacturers, and both said S&B was indeed now making all the .45ACP WWB being sold at Walmart. They also said that Winchester outsources ALL their handgun ammo manufacturing now. As a sidenote, I picked up 500 rounds of Magtech .45ACP 230gr. FMJ for $18/100 rds. out the door. Hope it shoots as well as the WWB I have previously been using.

[BluesBear]

I know that due to the increased demand for ammunition by the US Gummint Olin (the makers of Winchester ammo), in 2003 quietly started accepting bids for outside sources to produce their Winchester USA value line ammunition commonly referred to as "White Box".
The bids were for both complete ammunition and for assembly using Winchester components. I got the impression that Olin would prefer that their components be used.

I have not heard of any such bidding being opened for their premium ammunition lines.
But then I was out of touch there for a while.

[mjb]

I have had a problem like that using the same S&B .38 ammo from my Colt Cobra. I learned that I had to pull the trigger quickly in order to have the gun go bang every time. If I pulled the trigger slowly it sometimes wouldn't fire.

[chaim]

My CZ 75B has never had any issues with S&B 9mm and my Charles Daly 1911 has never had any issues with their .45ACP. As others have said, maybe it is a gun to gun thing with their ammo. I have heard about the hard primers in S&B before.

I've also heard rumors that WWB is made by IMI. (I can't remember the third company I've heard

I don't know about other calibers and even versions in .223, but the some of the WWB .223 is IMI/made in Israel.

[yoky]

Hallo everybody here

Nice to hear that ammo from my country has good reputation. I have spent my nearly 30 years on duty with SB ammo only. This is official ammo (9mm) for LE, Army and for other Security services in Czech Republic. During my years of service I hadn’t problem with SB. Sometime you have got“luck" on ammo which is little bit more smoky and dirty. However I had used SB in my app. 18 guns I had owned. Within last several years I am using mostly ´45, SBin my Kimber, SB 40SW in my G22, and 9mm in CZ gun without any problem. Here is ammo expensive and for majority of shooters there is way to buy SB or reloading. Sometime you can buy Wolf it is cheaper or US ammo which is more expensive. In accordance with our law we can not use HP ammo. For this we try to use Federal 45 EFMJ this ammo is allowed for PP. In 9mm we can use Lapua CEPP both types. However mentioned ammo is app. 5times expensive then SB. For this we are buying several pieces only for personal protection and several pieces for training. In general I would say I am satisfied with SB.
Best Regtards
yoky

[yoky]

There is link for SB factory and ammo
http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/

[GunAdmirer]

No problems with S&B in my Ruger GP100s in .357. I recently chronographed a few rounds in each:

6" 1170fps avg
4" 1140fps avg

Not as hot as I expected. The bullet is a nice semi jacketed soft flat point.

I shot a box of .45 S&B in my SA GI .45 with no problems. Seemed pretty clean and potent. Highly recommended by a salesman at Cheaper Than Dirt who shoots it exclusively for practice in his .45s.

Those .38 cases were scary, though. Isolated bad batch of brass I hope and trust!

[roo_ster]

I've used S&B in:
9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .357mag, 6.5x55, 8x57

.357mag Experiences
All expericence is with 158gr SP.

S&W 686
Nothin' but love. My M686 eats it up & asks for more. No misfires whatsoever. The 158gr SP is a thumper.

Taurus 651 Ti
Nothin' but grief. Someone alluded to S&B being loaded hot. Well, they're right. When I shoot hot S&B 158gr SP out of this snubby, 3/5 cases will refuse to extract & I will have to punch them out from the front. I suspect that the titanium is not as slickery ("slickery" is an industry term, for those not in the know) as stainless & the cases will expand & stay in the chambers.