[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

What is the strangest reaction you've ever gotten when you had to
tell an applicant that he/she was DENIED on the 4473 form?

I had a guy come into the store and pick out two handguns; one for
himself and the other for his GF. He picked out a low end Kimber for
his use, and a Taurus Ultralight model 85 for his GF. When all the
paperwork was completed, and a call made to the F.B.I. it was
immediately DENIED. When I approached the customer and informed
him of the notification; he became very angry, loud, and boisterous.
Finally, when help arrived we escorted him from the store without
any further incident. BTW, the weapons in question were returned
to the stores inventory.

But what if this person had been armed prior to coming into our place
of business? It could have been an awful day, to say the least. I'd
like to hear someone else's experiences.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[TallPine]

So did you call the local police or who-ever?
Isn't it a felony for a prohibited person to attempt to buy a gun?

Oh, to answer your question - I guess I didn't work at a gun counter long enough. Never had a NICs denial - just a few delays.

[P95Carry]

Other question Ala Dan .. I tend to assume you'd be carrying yourself whilst behind counter (tho my local guy doesn't, despite me ''nagging'' him!). I'd think this was a wise move and sorta imagine you for one,would.

What you describe as a possibility is something I could see happening. :uhoh:

[sturmruger]

A dealer that doesn't carry?? That sounds like trouble to me I hope you can change his mind someday.

[Ala Dan]

To answer your questions:

No Tall Pine, the local PD wasn't called as the incident was over
before they would have had a chance to respond. Reasons for
denial are not given to FFL dealers. One could only assume he
was a convicted felon, right?

Yes sir, I was armed not once but twice! ;) With a Smith old
model 60 .38 Special in a Bianchi IWB at 4 o'clock; and a NAA
.22 magnum with 1-1/8" barrel in the left front pants pocket.
But, I wasn't justified in using deadly physical force; only
the force necessary to get the job done! :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[P95Carry]

I wasn't justified in using deadly physical force; only the force necessary to get the job done! Agreed ... would not have expected any different! But had things gotten outa hand it's good to know you were prepared, that was all! :)

[cxm]

I'm surprised the FBI does not have some sort of denail message that say s call the cops or the like.

Had not thought of it before... but would make sense.

fwiw

Chuck

[Sam]

I have never had a denial, but have had a couple of delays that ended up like your experience. I asked both to leave when they started winding up. One cut loose a couple of expletives and left the other was a bit more forcibly ejected with the assistance of my dog. It is a worry as I'm a 1 man shop. The pup helps but I am a bit more cautious with unknown customers.

Sam

[Standing Wolf]

Isn't it a felony for a prohibited person to attempt to buy a gun?

When was the last time you heard of anyone being arrested for that?

Didn't think so.

[sensei]

In Texas, if you have your CHL (as I do) you only have to show it to purchase a gun. We still have to fill out the form. I think it is yellow if I remember correctly. If you answer the questions correctly, what are the reasons you could be denied a weapon.

sensei

[GreenFurniture]

Reasons for denial could be anything from an old unpaid parking ticket to murder. We've had people denied for a bad check, parking tickets and many more random and silly things.

[LiquidTension]

The guy I bought my AK from years ago said that he did a background check on someone a few years earlier for a transfer and NCIC said, "Keep him there, the police are on the way." Apparently the guy was a fugitive of some sort. Police showed up and arrested the guy.

[yorick]

I've been denied a couple of times - always had it overturned on appeal - which takes about 90 days...

Anyway - I didn't make a fuss and neither did the dealer - I just sigh, here we go again, and tell the dealer I'll be back after I get my appeal paperwork - and the dealer smiles and pretends to believe me as he puts the gun away... :scrutiny: :barf:

Highly annoying - but there isn't a lot you can do about it....

[Wags]

13 years ago I moonlighted in a full service Gun Shop in Wisconsin. A guy came in, paid cash and purchased two Glock 21 pistols. Seemed like a good guy. Heck, we even let him take them on the range and fire both pistols. Can't remember how many rounds, but more than a box each (now a used pistol).

Later that afternoon/evening we called in for the background check since it was a busy day. They'll get back with us they said, something isn't right. About an hour later they called back with a denied. Come to find the guy was pending a felony charge thanks to a insider at the local PD.

The guy comes back after the 48hr mandatory waiting period for his pistols. We explained he was denied and we can't sell him the pistols. I asked him is there anything "pending" that we should be aware of? He gave this long BS story how he was working with the feds on a major drug case, and everything will be ok on our end with handing over his new pistols to him. "Can I now take my guns with me," he kept demanding.

We wouldn't do it with him saying he would sue us etc....... Promptly refunded his money and he left and never returned. Now we were stuck with two used Glock 21's. From there on out, no one shoots a purchased pistol until the background check was approved. Learned the hard way.

[RRTX]

In Texas, if you have your CHL (as I do) you only have to show it to purchase a gun. We still have to fill out the form. I think it is yellow if I remember correctly. If you answer the questions correctly, what are the reasons you could be denied a weapon.

sensei

Essentially you can't be denied since there is no call made to check on you. Since those of us with CHL's in TX have gone thru the FBI checks to get the license, there should be nothing prohibiting you you from purchasing a firearm. We fill out the same yellow form (4473) as anyone else, the only difference is the call to NICS is not made.

[pete f]

Several years ago we had a guy get delayed, the girl on the phone said "It shouldn't be long, our computers are rebooting", five minutes later cops come in front and back doors with guns out. They take the guy away in cuffs and hobbles. Wanted for kidnapping, bank robbery, and more. The guy was using his real ID to buy the gun, apparently thought no one knew who he was.

In Minnesota, even with a CCW you have to get a NICS check, but you do not have the waiting period.

[tg_26101]

I've had a few memorable. One fellow, after telling him he had been denied on the NICS, said he couldn't understand why. He then asked if receiving stolen property would deny him, and I said that would about do it. Then he asked if assault on a police officer would get him denied. I told him I figured that would do it also. He sighed and left. I see him frequently at gun shows.

Then there are the ones that never made it to the background check. I've had two different people answer "yes" to the question about being adjudicated mentally defective. One told me he had been to treatment, and was feeling much better now......

I had one who passed the background check for a rifle. I later saw in a newspaper article about him shooting himself in the abdomen, trying to commit suicide. About a year later he wanted to buy a gun at a gun show. I told him no, he asked why, I said I think we both know why, and he walked away.

But the worst was a fellow who wanted a handgun. Pistol or revolver? Didn't care, wanted a handgun. What caliber? Didn't care, wanted a handgun TODAY. Looked at his red eyes and shaky hands and told him sorry, it wasn't going to happen. He went off on me about his right to own a gun, and I had to sell him one. He was escorted out; I spent the next two weeks watching cars closely and expecting a return any time with the gun he'd bought from someone else.

And I got into this for an enjoyable hobby.....

[Bart Noir]

the real one, the one with State in the name, the concealed permit also avoids a waiting period but not the NICS. (and I do pity those poor suffering bastids in the one with Columbia in the name).

Hey, the start of the thread was about two guns, one for the girlfriend? Isn't the first question on the federal form asking "are you really buying this for somebody else, you tricky dog"? Oh, that may just be the WA state form that asks that. I don't get copies of either.

To slightly change the thread, isn't it also an issue when the dealer has good reason to think that the buyer is buying for somebody else?

Bart Noir

[oneshooter]

I have never been denied the purchase,altho once I had a dealer refuse to call it in untill I filled out the "optional" part of the form. He said it was company policy, this was at a going out of business sale of a once major sporting goods dealer. At 3oclock I called the local office of the BATF and complained, giving the name of the company, the person, and the time of day. At 5oclock the regional director of the clearence company called and said that I could pick up my weapons, 3-98 Swedes and a S&W422. Was real apologetic and I understand the manager was transfered. Sometimes the Feds DO work for you.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Ala Dan]

Good question- what actually constitutes a "straw purchase"?

I'm NO attorney, nor do I play one on T.V. so maybe a sho' nuff
real life attorney can shed some light on this subject. :uhoh: :D

How 'bout if one party fills out the 4473, but another party steps
up and pays for the purchase? Isn't the actual party buying the
weapon, the one who fills out the 4473?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Onmilo]

Years ago, before the FTIP call, I had a guy answer yes to the 'Are you addicted to narcotics' question.

When I informed him the sale was now invalid and he couldn't have the gun he chimed up, "But I only smoke pot and I'm being honest about it!"

I told him that the admission prevents me from transferring the firearm, end of sale, period.
He got pretty upset and offered to rewrite the 4473.
I told him 'no can do' and he stomped off.
Haven't seen him since.

[InfernoMDM]

I think its buying the weapon under your own name and giving it to someone else. If you pay for its ok as long as your friend fills out the other forms.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's My Beloved Friends-

So sorry if I misled anyone as to my activities. I do assist the owners
of a really nice family owned and operated Sporting Goods store in my
hometown of Bessemer, AL. I do this merely for fun three days a week
Thursday thru Saturday; 0900 hrs to 1800 hrs central time please. Its
a joy meeting and greeting perspective buyer's of firearms. I feel as
though I've made a lot of friends thru this venue; as its something I
enjoy doing by helping others. I'm not in it for monetary gain, just the
full-fillment of a dream. I will give full details of our operation, that has
been in business for over 45 years. (See Below)

Name: Simmons Sporting Goods
Address: 2001-2nd Ave North
City/State/Zip: Bessemer, Alabama 35020
Phone: (205) 425-4720

Owners: Clay Smimmons (CEO), Barry & Peter Simmons (VP's)

General Sales: Ray Grubbs, Dale Smith, Charles Bell, Dan Ford,
Barry Simmons, David Kelley, David Hernandez, Peter Simmons,
Johnny Bodiford, and Mike Jones.

Wholesale Orders: Russell Boackle, and Clay Simmons

Special Orders: Clay Simmons

Tranfer fee: $25 per firearm

We welcome any and all orders, satisfaction of our customers is
our #1 priority. Please be advised that we do not maintain a web
site, or have public viewing of an inventory list. Just tell us what
you want and we will do our dead level best to get it for you at
the best possible price. We specialize in hard to get items; but
keep in mind that we are not a Class III FFL dealer.

I have personally met many of our member's, and I want to thank
each and all for their patronage. The Simmons family has worked
very hard to build this business here in Bessemer, AL. I for one
am very proud of their accomplishments. Looking forward to
serving you, I am~

Respectfully,
Dan H. Ford, aka: Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Light Storm]

I work in the gun department at dicks sporting goods. The only deney i have ever had was a shady looking charater wearing a trench coat. I just had a realy bad vibe about this guy. If he was approved, i was going to hand him over to the manager, so i would not be the one sued when we said no, we are not selling the gun to you even though you where proceded. Not to my suprise, he was denied imediately, never even went to a real examiner. When i told him, he said nothing and quickly left the store. I imediately called wally world, witch is right next door to Dicks, and told them to be on the lookout for this guy. 10 min. latter their manager called me back thanking me, because this guy had gone strait to their store in an attempt to buy a gun. I then called every FFL in town. It turns out that i was the 3rd person to get a deney on this guy in the same day. I called the atf and told them what went on. They would not tell my why he was denied, but thanked me and assured me they would take care if it. Thats my denial story.

[taliv]

admittedly, this is question is mostly rhetorical, but how stupid does one have to be to think that the NICS results might be different on your 3rd try in one day??

:confused:

i guess the thought of answering a classified ad in the newspaper is just too far removed from the angsty trenchcoat



on another note, most of those stories, while humorous, appear to be the result of your bona fide knuckleheads. I'm wondering though, do any of you suspect some of your denieds might be more sinister? e.g. biased reporters a la michael more trying to manufacture a story, or ATF entrapment

i guess it's hard to speculate

[DonNikmare]

I witnessed a moron try to buy a rifle at a gun show in Mesquite,TX with an expired DL. The DL looked all dingy as if it could possibly be fake. The seller politely refused and the moron argued briefly before making a quick exit.

If I had been the seller, I would have found a way to get the guy arrested or at least thoroughly checked out by the proper authorities. When I asked the dealer about it she said she didn't want any trouble. :barf:

[itgoesboom]

Closest I have seen was when I was in a local gunshop up here.

I was just browsing, and one guy was selling his pistol to the shop, and all of a sudden, a couple deputies came in. It looked pretty bad for the guy selling, but it turned out the pistol had been stolen, returned, but had somehow not been taken off the stolen list.

Guy wasn't arrested, since he had all the proper paperwork.

Makes me a little nervous, since last year I recieved back my .357 revolver that was stolen a few years before. Guess I won't ever try to sell it.

I.G.B.

[BluesBear]

In the early 1980s, LONG before Brady, bak when you just had to fill out the form and walk out with your purchase, I had a customer in his early 20s answer yes to the drug use and renounced citizenship questions on the 4473.
I informed him that I could not sell to him. He then remarked that he was only joking (he was definately a smart ash) and asked for another form to fill out.
I then informed him that it was unlawful for ME to allow him to fill out another one.
So after the usual threats to sue AND kick my derriere he left.
About an hour later his father called and demended to know why I couldn't sell his son a firearm.
I told him that I would not be having that conversation over the telephone.
He said he'd see me in court.


So...

The next day the kid shows up with his father.


His loud, obnoxious father.



His father the state representative. :what:


So I pulled the 4473 from my "dead" file and went over it with him. Step by step, in great detail.

He grew strangely quiet after he told his son in no uncertain terms to shut up and reposition his assets to the car.



The off-duty, out of uniform County Police Captain standing at the end of the counter just grinned and my friend the well known local TV news reporter who had walked up behind him asked if he had any comment.



He didn't.





I'm still waiting for that summons.

[dleong]

A couple of nights ago, I was at the local Gander Mountain to pick up a CZ 40P that was shipped in for me. Another gentleman at the counter was in the process of purchasing a rifle, but his NICS check came back with a "Denied." The firearms counter was rather crowded, so a lot of people overheard the denial. The customer appeared really embarrassed, but didn't raise a ruckus; he merely politely asked the salesperson what could be done to appeal the denial, and was informed of his options. Very professionally handled by both parties, I must admit. Must be that "Minnesota Nice" I keep hearing about...

(On a related note, the NICS check on all of my previous firearms purchases have resulted in a "Delay," with the "Proceed" following anywhere from an hour to a day thereafter. The CZ 40P purchase at Gander Mountain that evening was the very first time the NICS check resulted in an immediate "Proceed.")


DL

[TallPine]

To slightly change the thread, isn't it also an issue when the dealer has good reason to think that the buyer is buying for somebody else?
I don't think that's a problem as long as it is a true gift, rather than buying for someone using their money. (of course if the "gift" is to a known felon, then there might be a problem)

The last handgun I bought, I outright told the clerk that I was buying it for my daughter. My wife and I picked it out together. He never said a word about buying for "somebody else" - of course, this IS Montana ;)

[Mr. Mysterious]

I still can't believe people actually check yes to any of the boxes.

[SRYnidan]

Not all denials are legitimate.
A few years back when Brady was a new thing several friends of mine and I got together a group order. When the pistols came in I went to pick up mine (in uniform USAF MSgt ) and there was no problem. The next day stopped by with one of the other fellows (a USAF TSgt I knew really well) and he was denied.
He found out (took almost four months to straighten this out) that when he was 17 he was arrested over a supposedly stolen CB radio that was installed in the car that he was a passenger in. The charges were determined to be baseless the same night and he was released and the charges dropped. No closed the record in NICS
Twenty years had passed the fellow had a NICS check done for his Air Force security clearance at least twice and was in charge of a weapons storage facility with more than 5K weapons. He had to get a lawyer to have the FBI call the local police close the transaction.

[RavenVT100]

I still can't believe people actually check yes to any of the boxes.

You mean besides the first "Are you the intended recipient" box.

[JohnBT]

"How 'bout if one party fills out the 4473, but another party steps
up and pays for the purchase?"

I've spent way too much time hanging out in gun shops and have seen folks attempt to do this, but it's never worked. I've seen a guy pull out a wad of cash and hand it over to the 'buyer.' The buyer filling out the forms is supposed to be using his or her own money. I imagine a lot of things happen in the parking lot before and after the sale, but all the laws in the world won't stop a crook.

An amusing personal tale...

The day after Thanksgiving I convinced my father to buy the new revolver he'd been talking about for months. When the sales guy put the paperwork on the counter my dad slid it down in front of me and said, "You fill it out and I'll pay for it." I'd no sooner said "That's not legal" when he whipped out a brand new checkbook and announced "It is if your name is one of the three on the check."

A sneaky old coot at 83 is what he is and I got stuck doing the paperwork while he laughed at me. Of course, they do know us there and he's a former state trooper.

John

[Control Group]

Reasons for denial could be anything from an old unpaid parking ticket to murder. We've had people denied for a bad check, parking tickets and many more random and silly things.

Er

Unpaid parking tickets are grounds to fail a background check?? :uhoh:

Looks like I better go check out Milwaukee's parking ticket site and look up my car. I can't begin to imagine how befuddled and embarassed I'd be if I got denied my first firearm purchase attempt. It wouldn't even occur to me it could be about a parking ticket.

[Ala Dan]

Another thought:

What about someone who is legally blind, but wants a handgun for self
protection. Per the rules and reulations, can they have someone else
fill out the 4473 for them? I don't know the correct answer; but I'm
sure there are lots of blind folks living otherwise normal lives that
honestly need some form of protection; other than dog's.

Part B: Should their right to own a firearm be DENIED* in the name of
safety?

*FootNote: Denied by the shop-keeper, NOT the Fed's; assuming that
said person has NO criminal background.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[TallPine]

Well IMO the whole thing is just silly and an annoyance :(

So now Mr Person_with_a_record can't buy a gun at a store, so he goes out and breaks into my house or yours looking for guns. I feel so much safer now :rolleyes:

Oh sure, there are lots of people that I don't want to have guns - there are also a lot of people that I wish didn't have cars, ATVs, or keyboards and internet connections :p

So many people today can't seem to realize that our nation survived over 200 years with virtually unlimited access to guns - even mail order purchases up until 1968.

Of course, the guys(& gals) in the gun stores have to follow the rules to stay in business and out of jail.

[TallPine]

Okay, Dan - I'm done with my rant now ;)


I can't see how a gun would help a blind person :confused:

Unless the person was only "legally blind" (meaning eligible for benefits) and could see at least somewhat. Still doesn't seem like a good idea.


I guess if I were a shopkeeper (of any sort) I wouldn't want to sell something to someone if I thought they were going to hurt themselves or someone else with it. But if the blind guy trying to buy the gun was black you'd probably be in a heap of trouble :p (for discrimination)

[moa]

With all the cases of theft identity today (supposedly 10 million a year), I wonder if more denials are being issued? Or, maybe the other way around.

What proof of identity is required anyway?

[Ala Dan]

a wise old man (who was a FFL dealer at the time) once told me this,
"Everybody needs PROTECTION". Case in point, I have reason to think
he meant a handgun.

Now days, we do have this older gentleman that comes in the store
once or twice a week just to chat with the crew. I overheard him make
a comment that he would like to have a small revolver just to keep by
his bedside. I'm not sure how blind this fella really is; but he does have
a seeing-eye dog by his side.

Technically speaking, I don't see how his gentleman could possibly use
a firearm of any sort; without endangering himself or other's. To my
knowledge, this person still lives alone!

That is why I raised the question in the first place. Suppose I'm the
salesperson behind the counter that has too make that type of decision?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[oswulf]

We bought our pawnshop in '02 and after the lengthy wait for the background check for the FFL we were approved and licenced. Well about then I decided to transfer one of the inventory guns to myself, called in the background check on myself, and was put on delay. Ok, I may have a somewhat shady past, but I'm an ex military cop and have no felonies or domestics of any kind. I was approved after a couple days, but this turned into kind of a trend. About two thirds of the transfer I did to myself from my shop were delayed, but they weren't even consistent since they'd approve me about a third of the time. This after jumping through all the ATF's hoops to get an FFL. Finally after a couple months I got fed up and applied for and got my CWP so I don't have to deal with that anymore.

As far as denials, I've had several and the customers are generally pretty understanding, though a few get kinda cheesed off when I can't tell them why even after I explain the NICS bunch won't tell me either. A few have gotten irate and treatned to sue, but nothing violent.

Oswulf

[mjb]

To my understanding, it is when you purchase a firearm for someone who isn't eligible or allowed to purchase a firearm. I heard the punks from Columbine, Colorado who shot up that high school a few years ago had someone who was of age purchase the guns for them. That is a straw purchase.

[JohnBT]

Of course blind people should be able to buy guns. I'm not too sure about them having a license to carry, but I'm still thinking on it. FWIW, I've worked with people with disabilities since I finished an M.S. in Rehabilitation Counseling in '74.

Let me ask a question. Should blind people be allowed to buy and collect cars?

As far as the forms go, I believe that Federal law requires retailers (since they are open to the public) to provide appropriate accommodations. Since, for example, doctors and lawyers are required to provide sign language interpreters for Deaf individuals, then I would think that gun shops would be required to provide an appropriate accommodation for a blind person such as reading the form and either marking the spaces or directing the person to each space for them to mark it. Then they'd show them where to sign it - it's not a big deal to take the person's hand and move it so the pen is at the beginning of the signiture line. If it's signed a little crooked, or a lot, it's still legal.

I've read the Americans with Disabilities Act. And the Rehab Act. And some others.

Face it, we have members here who, by their own admissions, can't shoot. :)

John

[Old Fud]

I believe the definition of a Straw purchase has been expanded to prohibit buying a firearm for ANYBODY else -- whether they could have qualified to buy one themselves or not.

You cannot buy a gun for your SO. (friend, daughter, etc.)

However, you can buy it for yourself and let your SO (friend, neighbor, daughter, underaged Grandaughter) use it. That's just peachy.

I'm also fuzzy on the subject of "Borrowing".
I know it's legal, but believe there's some kind of time limit on it, like 30 days.

To stay On Topic, (i.e. "denials"), what y'all are discussing doesn't happen like that here in California. We have the 10-day waiting period to deal with, not an instant-check. Of course the dealer will stop the sale if you answer the questions wrong, but once he loads the questionairre into the computer, we all go home and find out 10 days later that we can/can't pick up our piece.

I'd say the most common reason for a denial is failure to wait the full 30 clocked days between purchases.

Fud

[Mr. Mysterious]

Old Fud, as far as I know gifts are legal. I think in the expanded AWB that our gun haters wanted, the purchase of guns for gifts would have been banned among other things.

[JohnBT]

Gifts are still legal. You can buy a gun with your own money and give it to a "non-prohibited" person.

Okay, here it is...

From the 4473, page 3, item 1, second sentence.

“You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.”

www.atf.treas.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm

____________

I've never heard of a time limit on loaning someone a gun. Again, they need to be able to legally own a gun in order to possess it. FWIW, I've never loaned a gun to someone who didn't already have at least a few of their own. Heck, my uncle hunted with a 444 Marlin for the better part of 10 years and it belonged to his brother-in-law. Then he went back to hunting with his BAR.

John

[White Horseradish]

Well, I don't know how a blind person would do in a home defense situation with a firearm, but there are shooting competitions for the blind. (http://www.ibsa.es/eng/deportes/shooting/presentacion.htm)

[Car Knocker]

Regarding blind shooters:

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,265559,00.html

Legally Blind N.D. Resident Receives Gun Permit
1/5/2001



Legally blind 27-year-old man in North Dakota was issued a concealed-weapons permit after passing all the requirements, the Associated Press reported Jan. 3.

Carey McWilliams, whose sight is limited to light perception, said he applied for the permit for protection. "If you choose this blind victim, you might end up dead," he said. "I don't want to shoot anybody, but an assailant's life is not an issue with me."

Under North Dakota law, applicants for concealed-weapons permits must pay a fee, undergo a background check and pass written and shooting exams.

"He completed the background check, so the county and city were comfortable with him getting the permit," said Pat Healey, a Cass County sheriff's deputy who administers permit tests.

Healey said that McWilliams was allowed to get his bearings on the target before shooting.

"I don't see a problem with him doing it," said Healey. "People who are challenged that way compensate nicely. They can be as reliable with a weapon as anybody."




http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/1/3/162824.shtml

Nearly Blind Man Gets Gun Permit
NewsMax.com Wires
Thursday, Jan. 4, 2001
FARGO, N.D. (UPI) – Carey McWilliams' eyesight is limited to the point where the only thing he can see is the difference between night and day.
But that did not stop law enforcement officials in his home county from giving him a gun permit, including privileges allowing him to carry a pistol concealed on his person.

McWilliams, 27, who lives in a mobile home, received the concealed weapons permit in October 2000, after passing a police criminal background check, a written test about firearm use, and a shooting test where he had to hit a black target from seven yards away.

The shooting test required him to hit the target with 10 of 10 shots, and he managed to do so on his second try. He missed on one of the 10 shots on his first try.

McWilliams used a .357 Magnum pistol to qualify for the gun permit. He owns nine other firearms, including an AK-47 assault rifle for hunting, and pistols.

Those include a .32 caliber revolver that he prefers to carry when he goes outside.

Police in Cass County said they did not have a problem with a vision-impaired person carrying a concealed firearm. Sheriff's deputy Pat Healey noted that McWilliams passed the same tests required of anyone else.

"He completed the background check, so the county and city were comfortable with him getting the permit," Healey said.

McWilliams, a student at North Dakota State University, said he thought his impaired vision justified his desire to carry a pistol for his own protection.

"Most people think of hate crimes as being race- or sex-related, but handicapped people get abuse too," he said, noting that he has been beaten by some people who assumed his vision impairment made him an easy target.

"I also get the telephone calls from people threatening to kill me because I can't see," McWilliams said. "I just want to be able to defend myself in the future if someone does try to hurt me again."

So what does the future hold for McWilliams?

He expects to finish work toward his college degree this spring, and said he'd like it if his interest in firearms could result in a job, possibly one with the National Rifle Association.


Copyright 2000 by United Press International. All rights reserved.

[Brian Dale]

Remember this thread?

Blind Man Shoots Robber In Chest (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=37845)

I'm glad that FFLs aren't saddled with the additional responsibility of guessing beforehand who'll be likely to become a good shooter. They have enough to do already.

--and oh, yeah: where I wrote "lean" in Post #11 of that thread, I should have written "LEARN." I'll learn to type real soon now.

[The Rabbi]

I worked at the now-defunct Gun Mart for about a year and a half on and off.
You can be denied for lots of stuff, some of it legit and some not. But that doesnt constitute a felony in itself. Yeah, there have been about zero prosecutions for felons attempting to buy guns. We did have to ask one gentleman to leave the store when he admitted to doing time.
If the guy is a real bad actor with outstanding warrants then the agency doing the check will hem and haw and keep you on the phone with all sorts of bogus excuses until Johnny T. Law arrives and apprehends the customer. I heard we had one woman Xmas eve who came in wanting to buy a gun for her mom. She had racked up lots of parking tickets and had a bench warrant outstanding and the cops came and got her.
As far as the blind person, if not that then what about someone who is illiterate (we do have those here in TN)? I know illiterates can get CCWs so obviously they could have someone fill out the form for them. Equally someone whose native language isnt English (do they print the forms in Spanish?).

[PUMC_TomG]

(do they print the forms in Spanish?).
Yes, they do.

[artherd]

I still can't believe people actually check yes to any of the boxes.

Except the first one, RIGHT?