Anyone else tired of caliber debates?

I am just wondering if anyone else is tired of caliber debates? 9mm vs. .45, .45 acp vs. .45 gap, etc. I am a firm believer in shot placement and don't think anyone, hit where it counts, will be arguing that he wasn't hit with something harder. That said, I don't feel undergunned carrying smaller caliber handguns when that is all that my attire will allow. I just practice regularly with what I carry. I also believe that confidence and competence in few pistols/revolvers is better than incompetence with a multitude of handguns taking up space in a safe. Anyone else feel this way or have similar pet peeves? I guarantee there are others so post your thoughts here.

kev

Sure am but I still think 9mm is for pansies. :neener: Seriously I concur.

Charby

I get a headache at some of the junk science available on the internet :banghead:


Shot Placement(multiple shots) is more important than caliber

Penetration and expansion are key...well designed bullets do both.

If you want to use something smaller than 9mm/.38spcl you should understand the limitations.

One Shot stops may actually occur, but it is rare and not to be expected.

People generally succumb to blood loss...which means lots of deep wide holes

It's more often the calibre of the posts that gets me worried.

--horge

Its very simple...shoot until the threat is neutralized, regardless of caliber.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I don't make it a point to complain much, but the fact of the matter is if people would just learn to use the search button and not just post the first x vs. y question that comes to mind, we'd probably see a lot less "forum fodder" posts.

After almost 2 years of being around here, I'd have a lot more posts beside my name if I took the time to regurgitate the same old arguments I have for why I like the calibres I like everytime someone asks.

I wonder if people are just too lazy to do their own research these days?


SC

It seems that "stopping power" has the most missinformation and creates the most debate. It's the most esoteric and difficult to pin down. Same reasons politics and religion create a lot of debate I guess. There's no solid way to "prove" your point of view with stopping power.

We could start a new debate trend. How about DA vs SA? But that would probably belong under Stratagies and Tactics . . . Hmm, what else can side track us from the inevitable caliber wars? Gun material, holster material, finish, action, caliber. . . they've all been done to death and are much less subjective.

How about sights? It seems there are every kind of sight available you can imagine and everyone seems to react differantly to them and have their own preferences. That might be a spirited thread or two :)

I'm tired of the debates too because the winner(s) has/have been proclaimed long ago: And it's a tie between Shot Placement, Round Adequacy, and Shooting Until the Threat is Over.

With the tone of the threads so far, it would almost seem appropriate to put a moratorium on caliber debates. However, in the spirit of this discussion board, that would prove contradictory. Keep them coming boys.

I've heard very competent people argue that if you get 9mm x19, quality 38 SPL and above in handguns, most of the variance is hitting the target.

That's enough for me. Get a good gun and round in a caliber from this set and learn to shoot it competently.

I am just wondering if anyone else is tired of caliber debates?

There is a debate? I thought it was settled that 45 ACP was top dog and it was downhill from there!http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21426&stc=1

Seriously, those threads are for the forum newbies. When I first found gun related forums I read those threads all the time. Now I skip them or scan them for interesting links.

If you don't like them don't read them.

The single most important requirement for defensive handgun ammunition is penetration. Without penetration, no bullet will do enough damage to stop an attacker. There are two camps; slow and heavy vs. fast and light (usually of the expanding variety), with compelling arguments on both sides.

Jeff Cooper used to say "Do not put your faith in expanding bullets". He was of the opinion that introducing another variable into the equation was unwise, and advocated .45 acp hardball for all your self defense requirements. There has been significant progress made in the design of hollowpoint bullets over the years, so his observation may not be as true as it once was.

However, the requirement that a bullet penetrate deeply enough to damage or destroy vital organs has not changed. The bullet must have mass and velocity sufficient overcome outer clothing, skin, flesh, fat, and possibly bone. Any 'major' caliber (9mm, 38, .357, .40, .41, .44 mag, 45acp, etc.,) will meet this criteria.

The next most important element is shot placement. It may do no good to hit an armed attacker in a non-vital area, even with a .44mag. So the next most important consideration relies on the shooter rather than on the bullet. Having a firearm with a capable round is only half the equation. Without the skill and mindset to use it, you're not prepared to defend yourself. Half measures availed us nothing. You need to be willing and able to place two shots in quick succession in an area no larger than your fist, under pressure in low light. That requires familiarity with your weapon and a lot of careful practice.

Not really!! So long as the arguments are sound.. it is when dribblers get wet that we start having the problems.. :uhoh:

some are a little hackneyed however like the 9mm vs. .45 debate.. :(

how about .50 AE vs. .454 Casull???????? :evil:

Its very simple...shoot until the threat is neutralized, regardless of caliber.

+1

I prefer 9mm mainly due to cost. I can afford to practice 2 tp 3 times more then with larger (more expensive) calibers.

remember hand guns are defensive. Use them to fight your way to a long gun!

Now start a new caliber war, 5.56 vs 7.62!

They all sound the same to me:

"BLAH BLAH 9mm BLAH BLAH BLAH"

"Oh, yeah? Well, 45ACP BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH."

Kinda like Charlie Brown's teacher.

:neener:

I am just wondering if anyone else is tired of caliber debates?

Never! It's akin to passing a bad wreck, I just have to look even though I know it's wrong on so many levels.

1. Any gun is better than no gun
2. Carry the biggest gun you can comfortably conceal based on what you are wearing at the time.
3. Carry the biggest gun that you can shoot accuratly.


Ballistics:

Poke a hole. Poke a hole as deep as you can. Poke the biggest hole you can. Poke the hole in an important place.

There are times I carry a Seecamp .32. Its not what I want to get into a gunfight with, but, based on what I'm wearing and what I'm doing, its the biggest gun I can carry at the time.

There are times I carry a Glock 35. Its not what I want to get into a gunfight with, but, I prefer it to the Seecamp.

My favorite is... "You say a .32ACP is weak but I don't see you volunteering to be shot with one." :rolleyes:

Give me a .45ACP :evil:

i am never tired of caliber debates because there is always someone out there who is new to the debate. We were all new at one time, these caliber debates are a good way to get a newb aquainted to their favorite cailber :)

I like 'um..Not gonna change my mind about my choices though.

Just about anything that I can think of regarding sidearms involves some kind of trade-off. Its intestering to see what others are 'trading off' and what they are getting in return.

Now if wildinalaska can get his belchfireloudenboomerleveraction88magnum to fit in a front pocket, that might change my mind.

salty.

2.7 Kolibri vs. .308 Win? Haven't seen that one yet.

With the tone of the threads so far, it would almost seem appropriate to put a moratorium on caliber debates.
:scrutiny:
Regardless of a thread's subject matter it is within everyone's ability to skip to one of interest to them.

Suggesting a moratorium on this subject or any other for the reason stated is absurd! :what:



:evil:

Not really :rolleyes: I just move to another thread I find interesting :cool:

Was tired of the "X" vs/ "Y" arguments a LONG time ago. Even worse is the same one's kep coming up. Why can't people use the "seach" feature!? :banghead:

I'll have you know my 2.7 Kolibri will blow an elephant apart at 300 yards!

I have long advocated an sticky unmoderated rant section where folks can waste there time arguing the finer points of 9mm vs 40 vs 45, DA vs SA, Ginger vs MaryAnn etc.

I'd rather be out shooting something

ZM

Well you are your own worst enemy as just bringing up the subject sparks another debate.

You could carry a pellet gun and you'd still be leaps and bounds ahead of the sheeple! :)

Carry what you want - and practice with what you carry. Any gun is better than no gun, and being proficient is much more important than caliber choice.

Most criminals are cowards looking for an easy victim - even a .22 makes you a real pain in the arse to a would be criminal.

"My name is Mike and I carry a 9mm."

There, I said it. I feel better already.

Modern bullet manufacturing technology and design has pretty much ended the debate and placed most defensive handgun calibers on an equal footing.

So there! Lets debate something worthwhile like...........................




















Revolvers vs. semi-autos. :neener:

Ah! Let people have their opinions. Some of it makes for fun reading. I especially like the Glock discussions. Variety is the spice of life and the more opinions heard the more interesting it is! :D :scrutiny: ;)

Here, Here. Extremely tired of caliber debate threads.

Never paid too much mind to caliber debates. Guns which leave the house with me run from a .38-Special snubbie to a Highway Patrolman to a hi-cap 9mm to 5" 1911-A1. Don't feel uncomfortable with a single one of 'em!

Long as I can deliver them properly, any of my rounds are capable.

the caliber question is an important issue. a clear and definative answer to this question would be of immense value to anyone concerned with their personal safety.

at the heart of the debate, as was pointed out, is the 'light and fast' vs 'slow and heavy' question. from speer #13, maximum velocities in each case:

9mm, 115gr, 1258fps: energy 182kk
45acp, 230gr, 916fps: energy 193kk

the mighty 45acp is the clear winner, by 6%. of course the real self defense load would not be the 230gr ball (used above) but gold dot hollow points, in which case:

45acp 230gr gdhp, 893fps: energy 183kk

so the mighty 45acp is still the clear winner, but by 0.5%. (until the next guy posts with data gathered using a slightly longer 9mm barrel or slightly shorter 45acp barrel.)

HOWEVER discussion (and hopefully FINAL resolution of this important question should be contained within the bottom-feeder (autoloader) forum. this would be a convenience to revolver shooters who seem inexplicably but blissfully oblivious to the entire debate.

38spl, 110gr, 1134fps: energy 141kk
38spl, 158gr, 967fps: energy 148kk
357mag, 110gr, 1693 fps: energy 315kk
357mag, 158gr, 1265 fps: energy 253kk

just mho.

All service calibers are pretty much equal, all things considered.

Then again, some are more equal than others. :evil:

http://www.speer-bullets.com/images/Bullets/cartridge/53960.jpg

Speer Gold Dot 158gr. 357 Magnum 1235 MV 535 ME

yes, tired of caliber debates, over penetration debates, hand load vs factory loads for defense debates, revolver vs semi auto debates, and a lot of other debates that just seem to live on and on and on and.................

have long advocated an sticky unmoderated rant section

Yup. It could be called "Revolver vs. Auto Shootout", in honor of the article that gets run about once every 4 years in any given gunrag. :)

The free market's had something like 100 years to work through this "9 vs. 45" thing, and seems to have come to the conclusion that either works.

I for one still believe a well placed .357 is still better than a well placed .9 mm. both defense loaded assuming.

Add me to the list of those who have gotten sick and tired of the "caliber" debate.

Two quote two different persons I have read on The High Road:

"A .22 LR to the head will do more damage than a .45 ACP to the hand."

"If you shoot them in the freaking head, they'll stop!"

Both excellent points. I carry an EAA Windicator .38 spl. snubbie, and practice with it regularly. I have no doubts that if I needed it to stop a [potentially] lethal attack that it (and I) would work.

It's more about the person and their ability to shoot reliably and accurately under stress, than it does about the gun, its size, and how big a chunk of lead it ejects.

All that said, however, I'm not really a fan of 9mm either, but my reasons are personal. :neener: :evil:

-38SnubFan

I heard that some archeologists recently uncovered a cave in France with some interesting prehistoric art on the walls (apparently dating back a couple hundred thousand years) ...

Experts on "cave drawings" believe that the depiction of the two cave men (one holding a small rock in one hand, while sitting next to a pile of 15 rocks, the other holding a substantially larger rock and kneeling next to a pile of 7 rocks) is actually a chronicle of an apparently long-running argument among Stone Age males.

Evidently, there was one faction of prehistoric men that believed, when going after small game, it was better to throw smaller stones (which were not only easier to throw accurately, but traveled farther and faster) while the other faction believed that one large rock upside the head of a game animal was the way to go, since it put the game down faster and for good ...

once upon a time (either here or glock talk) i got my butt drug over the coals for saying the 9MM was marginal unless it was +P+. mercy, you woulda thought i said their mother wore army shoes or something. then they wanted proof....then i really screwed up. i quoted marshal and sanow. i knew their research was/is less than perfect, but i still feel it is a good point of reference. anyway, i digress.......i agree too much is made of the caliber wars. it still can be kinda fun debating.

Much ado about nothing. Do some research on what works on the street, make a choice, and go on with life. There are a few new wrinkles (decent JHPs) since Elmer Keith wrote "Sixguns" but the earth still revolves in the same direction as it always did.

So do S&Ws.

Of course you could ask "What caliber of Wolf ammo should I shoot?"

But that would probably be non-controversal.

If a big caliber and heavy bullet are the answer to everything, why aren't all those 45 shooters shooting the 455 Webley instead? Not because Wally World doesn't stock the ammo. If everybody was shooting it they would.

I thought that is why we come here. :confused:

I like 'em. It gives mall ninjas a place in society :rolleyes:

Sure am but I still think 9mm is for pansies. Seriously I concur.

Charby



Yeah well I am a part time pansy then. Because when I'm felling a little wimpy I carry my PM9. And when I'm feeling manly I carry my 1911 with it's .45 acp payload. :D

Tired of calibers wars.....never!
I only get tired of the snobs sometimes associated with them.

As far as I'm concerned, the caliber debates are over...and have been for quite some time.

The requirements are that the round be put in the right place. This has NOTHING to do with the bullet!!!

Next, your round must be able to hit a vital structure. Any caliber from .380 and up will do this.

Finally, you must be able to put enough rounds into the target to stop them.

So, from these requirements, we can see that even a Hi-Point 9mm with a dbl stack mag is better than a 1911.
More is better than Bigger. <---Troof

Seriously, the gun that allows you to put the most holes into a person is the best. Some can do it with a Makarov and others prefer a 1911. I prefer to have the option to keep firing without a reload. Thats why single stacks aren't my preferred carry, although when clothing requires something other than my main carry (an FN Forty-Nine in .40) I grab my single stack .380 auto Makarov. It works everytime and I am accurate with it.

What? Is that what all of those posts with XYZ and 3545 etc are about? Sheesh! :D

Agreed that it gets stuck into the Autoloader forum! I haven't had a need to pay attention to caliber wars since my .44 Magnum came home. Now I'm just paying attention to see where/when/how I can pick up a nice 3-4" 629. :evil:

I always say, you can shoot me with your .50, .45, .40, what ever, but I get to shoot you with my 9mm too. Oh yeah, BTW, I get to go first. :evil:

Doesn't come down to whatever someone is comfortable with?

If a person has no faith in the .380 or the 9mm but they have faith in the .45acp isn't that what they should carry to put their mind at ease?

You guys don't have to reply to the debates. If you don't like it, just skip over it. I have researched the 9mm vs 45 debate instead of asking. Seems if you own a 45 than a 9mm won't kill someone. I even had a cop tell me that one :banghead:. A 9mm is just to do damage, not to kill, yada yada yada.

It is fun reading them though, because a lot of the time some of the people are soooooo opinionated. Plus, I like to learn, and maybe reading it over and over I will learn more. Everytime, someone comes up with a different point.