This IS "The *HIGH* Road" right?


March 7, 2003, 02:48 PM
Or is my computer lying to me? :scrutiny:

Seen way too much garbage posted here lately that wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds on TFL, and some even posted by TFL alumni, no less.


People, if you can only keep ONE thought in your mind when posting, keep this: Fence-sitter.

What would a fence-sitter think about those already here, and gun owners as a whole when they see some of the threads (and bad comments in acceptable threads) that have been sprouting up here the last few days?

At worst, we could also be giving anti-types even MORE ammo against us.

Guys, come on.

TFL was mentioned in a Wall Street Journal article. Who KNOWS who followed us here???!!!

Snap out of it, and grow up.



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March 7, 2003, 02:57 PM
climb down off your high horse before you fall and get hurt. 187

Double Maduro
March 7, 2003, 03:00 PM
Hey doc, give us examples. With vague generalities it is hard to know what you are talking about.


March 7, 2003, 03:05 PM
I've seen some questionable posts about torture but those were quickly shut down.

I would like to see some examples of what the orginal poster
is talking about.

March 7, 2003, 03:11 PM
mayhaps the post about the russian beauty contestants with the AKs...

March 7, 2003, 03:44 PM
I agree that some of the exchanges have been rather tart lately, but we have pretty much the same old TFL crowd here. What's different is the times. As war approaches, feelings are running high on both sides and talk gets blunter.

I might also add that we seem to be hearing more lately from those who might be characterized as liberal than we used to. That's healthy, but will naturally generate heated responses from those on the right.

So I see no problem with that. Rudeness, insults--those are another matter.

March 7, 2003, 03:51 PM
What's different is the times. As war approaches, feelings are running high on both sides and talk gets blunter.Yup. It's definitely unsettling. My best friend's eldest is in the 101st, now in Kuwait we believe. I'm putting in some time worrying about him.

March 7, 2003, 03:56 PM
mayhaps the post about the russian beauty contestants with the AKs...

Nah...the Swedish Bikini shooting team made the rounds at TFL a number of times. I see no conflict in beautiful women and the concept of a high road.

March 7, 2003, 03:57 PM
I tend to agree, seen some questionable stuff here lately.

Although this site is a good one, it will never be another TFL as much as some want it to be.

TFL made its bones - this place has a long way to go.


March 7, 2003, 04:00 PM
I too would like some references as to what the good Doc. is talking about. Heating exchanges shouldn't be allowed, and I am sure that the Mods take care of these post haste.

Are you referring to doldrums in the content being discussed, or the attitude of the discussion in general?

March 7, 2003, 04:02 PM
Give some examples.

March 7, 2003, 04:02 PM
I'd like examples too. I try to keep myself under control & would like to if I'm doing anything that is even remotely offensive.

March 7, 2003, 04:08 PM
On the other hand if we are really well behaved and never say anything that might be controversial or might offend someone then we will fade into total irrelevancy. A little heart felt feeling backed by some rational thought is the life blood of anything fun. Football, guns, religion, sex and politics. (Not necessarily in that order).:p

El Tejon
March 7, 2003, 04:09 PM
You mean beautiful women aren't allow?:(

March 7, 2003, 04:16 PM
Have you forgotten about this post , Doc??

You started this post saying something like ,"OK, I'm lit up, but..."

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

March 7, 2003, 04:19 PM

Just two examples of stuff that I don't really think serve any purpose and are in rather poor taste.

I've seen some other random posts in threads that I just thought were a bit below our standards.

I hope I don't seem like I'm overreacting, but I haven't been on the forums for about a day and a half or so, and I log on today and found what seems to me to be an unusual amount of posts and threads in bad taste.

Just a reminder to all to think twice and post once.

Thank you

March 7, 2003, 04:21 PM

Perhaps that's how I started it out, but did you read the body?

Tell me what is in poor taste about that?

(Though I admit the title could have used some work.... :rolleyes: )

Hope I'm not being too preachy or anything, guys...

March 7, 2003, 04:23 PM
Dr Jones:

Best thing to do is email/PM moderators and point things out.

One of those threads has already been closed down.


March 7, 2003, 04:28 PM
I think you worry too much. I saw alot of things on TFL that were far worse than your examples. I think the Mods are pretty good about letting people know when things get out of hand.

March 7, 2003, 04:28 PM
Is it me - I swear I've reformed and haven't intentionally insulted anyone (for quite a while now!).

So, to decrease my paranoia- how's about letting us in on what is so offensive here.

I've said it before- "hello" is going to offend someone and if they are going to eliminate anything here that "could" offend, well just what are we going to say?


March 7, 2003, 04:30 PM
Yeah....maybe I'm over reacting....

Just forget it......

Back to your regularly scheduled posts.....

March 7, 2003, 04:32 PM
It seems some of us have strong opinions on mass murderers.

If you went back to 1942 I'm sure some of the same things were said about about Tojo and Hitler.

Yeah, maybe some of the comments were out of line, but everything has to be taken with a grain of salt or a tongue
set firmly in cheek.

Times are getting tougher here in the US: War fears, terrorism,
joblessness, oil prices. people are feeling the strain.

Other than a few trolls I firmly believe THR is about 99.7%
good people who may need to let off a little steam now and again.

I wouldn't take it too seriously (thats the job of the moderators.)

March 7, 2003, 05:36 PM
I agree that in the past week or two there have been many posts that, and I'm not trying to play Mod here, but would have addressed with the poster. Of course, I know first handed ( :D )that sometimes Mods handle this via PM at first so we would not have seen such action.

Without going through a bunch of posts that I've already gone through, there have been many posts that were later edited by the poster to raise the level of tact displayed and there have been several threads that, by the time I read them, had droped to a point where, even though I had something to say, I didn't even want to get involved in the post.

Double Maduro
March 7, 2003, 05:39 PM

I appreciate your concern for how we are perceived by people that may drop by and have a look at what goes on here.

However, the two threads you cited here contain opinions that are shared by many people including anti-gun people. The "cheese eating surrender monkies" has been on prime time over and over again to the point where I am sick of it.

If we are truly worried about peoples perception of us we should examine our rallying cry "MOLON LABE". This seems to me to be much more provocative than anything I read in either of those posts. I believe it was also the rallying cry at TFL.

Don't worry about being too sensitive and expressing your concern. That's what this board, the internet and America stand for, the free exchange of ideas and opinions among anyone who cares to join in.

Sometimes we need a reality check and if nothing else you have made some of us think a little.

March 7, 2003, 05:43 PM
Thanks Double Maduro.

My sentiments exactly.

Though I can't help but get a very good chuckle every time I think of that flag with a "cheese eating surrender monkey" dancing on it!!!

Anyone have that pic????


BTW...what's a "double" maduro?

Steve Smith
March 7, 2003, 05:46 PM
I know what you're talking about, and the rest of the mods do too. There are quite a few locks, deletions, and PMs sent out on a regular basis. We can't raise the quality of the topics or posts, but we can delete or edit the ones that fall below the threshold. Remember, there are quite a few here who were not indoctrinated in the ways of TFL for a few years. Lots more newbies here. That's ok...we'll all stick to our guns and do our best to make quality, informative, posts.

Remember, "Think twice, post once."

Double Maduro
March 7, 2003, 05:48 PM
Double Maduro is a cigar term.

A maduro is a cigar with a wrapper that is aged longer than most and takes on a darker shade and a sweeter taste.

A double maduro is a cigar whos wrapper is aged extra long and is even better, imho.

Another term for Double Maduro is Oscuro.

One of my favorite cigars is the Hoyo de Monterey Rothschild double maduro. I was signing up for a cigar board and looking for a good handle and it just popped into my head so I used it.

Thanks for asking.

March 7, 2003, 05:49 PM
Where is the scene of this crime? Seems to me the same high standards apply to the HIGH Road as the Firing Line. Time for censureship, damn that 1st amendment and while we are at it damn the 2nd amendment. Good, now we can get good PR, no one will post but at least we will have good PR. Image is everything. I want a forum on basket weaving, yep a basket in every hand thats my motto, just think what the Human Race would be like if we had never had woven baskets? Hillary, is that you getting ready to post? I think its working:) Now back to the WW2 Platoon debate (armor) elsewhere. OOPS I mean back to my poetry reading.:barf:

March 7, 2003, 05:53 PM
Double Maduro is a cigar term.

Guess someone's going to complain that THR should be a NO SMOKING forum now...:scrutiny:

Personally, I have yet to find any discussion offensive here. But I believe that people should be open about their thoughts in the course of useful discussion. I've appreciated how openly we can express our opinions & observations here, and I don't want to see us go PC now.

If we're going to be :cuss: -ed , then we should be :cuss: -ed as who we REALLY are...:cool:

March 7, 2003, 05:57 PM

Thanks for the explanation.

I used to be into cigars, so I know a little about them, but had never heard of a "double" maduro.

Maduro I know....


Give me a break.


I personally was not offended.

It takes a lot to offend me.

I just thought that some seem to have forgotten the standards we strive for, and are named after.

Standing Wolf
March 7, 2003, 08:58 PM
I believe I can truthfully say I've never posted a comment here that would embarrass the forum or any of its members or administrators.

That saidâ„¢, I participate here because I like to socialize with fellow shooters, Second Amendment enthusiasts, and plain old-fashioned gun nuts, not because I'm concerned what they might think, whoever exactly they might be.

March 7, 2003, 09:35 PM
Speaking as a Mod: There are tons of threads here every day. If you see something wrong, just send the Moderators of that forum a message. Sometimes we find nothing wrong. Other times there is a problem and we deal with it. Sometimes we miss threads that are in bad taste. So just give us a heads up.

Speaking as a Member: I've said tasteless things myself. If you catch yourself engaging your keyboard and not your brain, just back off and try again. :) Think twice, post once.

March 7, 2003, 10:48 PM
Drjones, I agree with you and the approach and intent of The High Road.

However, don't kid yourself about the antis.

If we don't supply them with examples they will simply fabricate?manufacture them to suit their needs. Ever notice it's always a AK47 or a UZI on the news? Even if it's really a Lorcin or Mossberg Shotgun, it will be a UZI or AK47 by six o clock.

And if you conduct yourself in such a way as to be presentable, do you think the antis will take notice or give credit? The only thing they will look for is a point to spin.

And lastly, never conduct yourself according to the spectre of the anti's. If you live your life in such a way as to be palatable to your enemies, then you have already lost. You wanna win over your adversaires, then don't let them dictate your terms or conduct.

March 7, 2003, 10:49 PM
Taste? Last time I checked I liked pepper while someone else liked salt but, we both thought what we tasted was good!

There will always be differences in opinion on this subjective subject. ;)

March 8, 2003, 12:46 AM
Oops. Wrong thread. :uhoh:

March 8, 2003, 01:26 AM
Wah, wah wah, if you don't like it then don't read...
Kinda like the TV, if you don't like what you are seeing, change the channel, it's a spirited debate, if you don't like it than don't participate. But no wants to hear a complainer...

March 8, 2003, 02:27 AM
I guess I'll pitch my 2 cents in....

On Usenet (where I primarily hang out while on the 'net,) in unmoderated newsgroups, the rule of thumb usually tends to be "don't complain about topics you don't like/off topic posts, simply start your own, on-topic discussions, and don't add to the clutter,"

It seems to work fairly well...and THR is a moderated forum, so the signal-to-noise is obviously higher than unmoderated NGs....

Plus, if a post/thread really does bother you, why not report it to a moderator? That's what they're here for. And if they condone the thread/post in question, then why not simply ignore the thread/post and post what you want?

March 8, 2003, 05:16 AM
One of the qualities most people appriciated about TFL was the requirement that all posts be firearm related. This doesn't appear to be as strict a rule lately.

I wouldn't mind seeing that rule enforced more vigorously. Otherwise, we'll end up just like assaultweb.


March 8, 2003, 07:15 AM
I debated even dignifying this post with a response. I , personally, haven't been offended by anything that anyone here has stated. But, then again, I have a more open mind than most. We are all adults (mostly) here, so why don't we act like it gosh darn it. Censorship of someone's rights to speak freely and tell them what words they are/are not allowed to use is akin to what everyone of us are opposed to here, taking away our rights to own guns.

I won't name the board, but I frequented it often until they decided to "ban" a contributor because he frequently spoke his mind(not even using offensive languange, mind you). The mods decided to ban him because they didn't approve. Who are you mods to do that type of thing? You took on a tremendous responsibility opening up a board like this on the Internet to all the public so take your medicine. Said board also decided to remove its general discussion area because people were speaking freely. Sell-outs is what they are.

That said, being tactful is a common courtesy and involves some level of good manners. Instead of a moderator deleting or locking a thread in fear that someone might see it (God forbid someone be offended), I think offended readers should simply PM said "offender" and suggest they make a change to their post. I have been a victim of this tactic where a mod deleted my post. Sometimes certain wording stresses the meaning or connotation of something that cannot be expressed effectively any other way. I realize this is a board put together by private citizens, but it is open for public use on the public Internet. You cannot control everything.

I think we should agree that common sense and prudence be excercised so we can all play in the same sandbox. Those folks that cannot act like responsible adults will eventually wash out from here. I hang out on some "younger" boards from time to time simply for information on other interests that I have. The language is atrocious but I just move on because I have no more right telling those kids they can't say this or that than they have telling me I cannot go buy that new S&W .500 we all covet so much.

THIS AIN'T CHURCH ladies and gentlemen!!!


March 8, 2003, 10:51 AM
Folks, the High Road is private property. It's their bat, their ball, and their field. If you want to play, you follow their rules. That's not censorship. The First Ammendment concerns what the government can and cannot do, not what a private organization can and cannot do.

Without moderators, things get out of hand very, very quickly and the signal to noise ratio goes way, way down, to the point where the forum is unuseable.

I've seen some boards where the moderators get out of hand. People quickly vote with their feet, errr hands. In my opinion, the moderators here (like those at the TFL before it) have used a gentle hand. In these uncertain times, they've probably been busier than usual as many of us have had a shorter fuse than usual.

March 8, 2003, 11:03 AM

Since both threads mentioned by Dr Jones were started by me :scrutiny: I guess I should comment.


Post #1) What if we caught Osama?

This was actually a question one of my students brought up, and I told her I hadn't thought about it. She asked what was America prepared to do IF they did catch him. I said, I don't know, I'll ask, but I know what _I_ would do.

Post #2) What would the French do if a place hit the Eiffel Tower?

Well, there will always be some general French bashing; (oh well, I try hard to avoid it, but it's tough to avoid, will try to show more restraint)

The CNN news here posted some German and French opinions about how they are "civil" and the united states is nothing but "war mongers" because all the united states wants is war.

My students made that comment, and I said, I'll bet that things would be different if two planes struck the Eiffel Tower instead of the Twin Towers; I'll bet the French wouldn't be waiting around to see what the UN resolutions are; or who is for and who is against them etc.. They would NUKE the place.

So while comments and otherwise, might not be the cleanest bowl in the dishwasher, there was decent intent when both threads were started..

Oh, and by the way, even if I don't make a comment about it, that doesn't mean the French aren't still considered "Le Worm" as quoting the British Newspapers.

March 8, 2003, 11:35 AM
Seen way too much garbage posted here lately that wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds on TFL, and some even posted by TFL alumni, no less

Sounds like somebody's trying to get moderator status.

El Rojo
March 8, 2003, 11:48 AM
I have thought there were some threads locked too hasitly and in too PC of a manner on THR as compared to TFL. I was really getting used to the moderators over at TFL and then we had a shift at THR. Not really a huge difference, but just a change of personalities in some aspects. As far as the two posts in question, I can imagine there being worse threads out there. I think they are good weeder threads. It gives us a good chance to see who is really who when you post hypothetical threads like that. Some people will give you realistic answers. Some people will let their blood lust show through. Some people just act immature. Some people say what they think they ought to say. If you are that concerned about the anti-gunners having fuel to use against us, then we are doomed. They aren't going to use this board as a quote anymore than we are going to use the board for quotes.

So if you are concered about the moral degradation of THR, PM and e-mail those moderators.

Oleg Volk
March 8, 2003, 12:04 PM
I don't much care what antis think of THR. I do very much care what fence-sitters do, as I and others use this forum as a showcase of pro human rights goodness and civility. As far as moderating goes, we can eliminate egregious rudeness and duplicate threads but we cannot set the tone...except through leading by example.

"Just one more rule" would be the downfall of this forum. Instead, we just ask that we go by the Golden Rule -- treat others as you would have them treat you. Civility is just a part of that request.

March 8, 2003, 12:10 PM
I don't see that big a difference between TFL or THR regarding this kind of thing. TFL had more firearms knowledge in both threads and members. But perhaps that was just because it had been up for four years.

Get rid of the General Discussion and Legal and Political and make all posts strictly firearms related. Otherwise, you are going to have some rants, off color stuff, hate, and otherwise questionable posts at times. I am as guilty as anyone else for doing that on occasion, but only in the two sections afore mentioned.

Things get passionate sometimes. Sometimes a thread is started to "lighten" things up, girls with guns, and that sort of thing. Often these threads start out innocent enough but then go down the dumper fast.

I have seen a lot of forums like TFR and THL on the internet and this happens on pretty much all of them. Ugly or not, people have opinions. Perhaps some of the forum members who have taken offense could offer to be part time administrators?

March 8, 2003, 12:51 PM
I'm wondering, why would anyone offended by off topic posts
would even click on a thread "what should we do with Osama"

Beyond that it seems that some folks keep going back and re-reading and quoting from posts they regard as offensive.

I may have inadvertently made a few people uncomfortable with
my weird sense of humor at times but I personally don't take things very seriously and hope not to offend or hurt any feelings.

I'm partly desensitized from all the hate and flames on Usenet and Fidonet so even the most controversial post on THR isn't going to phase me one bit.

I really enjoy THR and in my opinion the moderators are doing just fine. They do not stem the flow of ideas, just keep things
orderly and keep the spam trolls at bay.

There may be some cases of folks subjecting themselves to
posts they know will offend their sensibilities and in these cases
self regulation is in order.

Just my 2 cents FWIW

March 8, 2003, 03:42 PM
Speaking of threads regarding France... That was one of the reasons why the aforementioned forum that I referred to closed its general discussion section. It was the straw that broke the camel's back when someone made a comment about France.

March 8, 2003, 04:09 PM
I don't believe it's about censorship, but being reminded that if we are striving for lofty goals then not every topic or comment is appropriate. I am enjoying the threads that force me to think past a media sound bite and look deeper into what really is being done.

March 8, 2003, 05:06 PM
4:59 PM EST March 8: What a coincidence! I just heard the Fox News Network announce that tomorrow sometime, they are going to have a program debating what to do with Bin Laden when he is caught. Wife is in the other room with TV on so I didnt hear much except something about Osama and the ten ring. lol

March 8, 2003, 05:11 PM
I realize this is a board put together by private citizens, but it is open for public use on the public Internet. You cannot control everything.

Sorry, but that is incorrect.

This board is open to people who decide to be members by clicking a box marked "I Agree" under a list of rules.

Those who cannot abide by the rules that they agreed to should not be surprised when they are shown the door.

March 8, 2003, 05:34 PM

I want to apologise.

I realise that both the threads I referenced were started by you, and I don't want you to think that I have anything against you or your threads in any way, or that I was trying to single you out.

I just personally think that threads like those tend to degrade quickly, and serve no real purpose.


Also, I'm NOT calling for more rules or more interference by the mods. I just think we should all remember to think twice and post once, that's all.

And "trying to get mod status"


That's why I've been sending Oleg "donations"!!! :D :neener:

March 8, 2003, 07:03 PM
I obey the rules, I think. ;)

I do think that humor is important on a board and this board is a bit lacking in humor.
A little too serious most of the time.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering. :neener:

March 8, 2003, 11:07 PM
A horse walked into a bar......Bartender said....why the long face?

March 8, 2003, 11:24 PM
That's why I've been sending Oleg "donations"!!!

You sneaky little...!:neener:

March 8, 2003, 11:48 PM
Whatever value this thread had has been flogged to a pulp.

Everybody just needs to get a Glock and move on....

2nd Amendment
March 8, 2003, 11:54 PM
If it doesn't degenerate into name calling and blatant ad-homs then I don't see a problem. Anything else is pretty much just a matter of personal taste. The answer to that is, quit reading it and go to another thread. Someone will always be offended and that's just life. As for anti's and fence setters, the former will simply make something up if they can't find it and the latter you'll never predict what will or won't turn them one way or another so don't sweat it.

March 9, 2003, 12:21 AM
After reading a few other firearm related forums, I can see your point of wanting to maintain some standards.
Insults, dropping F bombs and talking about shooting cats isn't something I want to spend my time on. Thoughtful discussion, experience and insight is well worth the time.

March 9, 2003, 09:30 AM

As someone who's skin is as thick as a rhino's hide, you'd have to do way more then that to offend me! Don't worry about it. While I realize that the quality of both threads degraded a little more then I had hoped, I swear both questions were legit as far as intent on my part.

There are times when we get fired up, (myself always included) that makes us show the "not so kind" part of us. That's why we have moderators, to kind of give us a friendly reminder about where the thin red line is, or might be. I always appreciate them. There are some threads that are locked too early as far as I'm concerned, and some that are locked to late, you win some, you lose some, hey, no big deal. But I can almost say that most threads that I have seen closed were closed for reasons that I can accept.

Also, consider the topics, you have a guy (osama..I've decided to stop capitalizing his name) who is responsible for the death of thousands; I'm sorry, but it's hard not to have ANY talk about him degrade a little bit (or a lot). It not even the forum or the people, it's the topic...

I still give osama :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: 5 barfs..

March 9, 2003, 11:18 AM
Virtually all humor is at someone's expense. As far as the other stuff goes, a good lively discussion that examines all aspects of an issue is among the key reasons i like it here. I understand that there are a lot of opinions offered, and I find it interesting to see who can think and articulate their position well, and who justs 'pops off' (myself included sometimes), not to mention that I sometimes learn something in the process. Lurkers who don't have honest curiosity, an open mind and think critically aren't going to change, so I submit that they don't matter.

March 9, 2003, 11:33 AM
Just like with guns, I choose quality over quantity. My gut feeling is that some people - obsessed with having a high post count - are sparing quality for the sake of quantity.

March 9, 2003, 07:02 PM
Virtually all humor is at someone's expense.

Sadly my humor is usually at my own expense. ;)

Is it a TOS violation to make fun of yourself? :neener:

March 9, 2003, 07:12 PM
As someone who's skin is as thick as a rhino's hide


Does that mean you can open a beer bottle like the "Rhino Tough" guy in the Rhino Fishing commercial?:)

(In case you haven't seen it, one guy shows how tough he is by biting the cap off the bottle. The other guy reaches around behind himself and pops off the bottle cap by inserting it between his other cheeks and squeezing.)

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